BJJ: Old Forum Topic

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BJJ: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Grappling & Jiu-Jitsu
Posted On: 13-03-2004, 15:53

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: BJJ

silent rogue
I am curious what you guys think.

Is Machado jiu jitsu or Gracie jiu jitsu more complete?

definetly not asking which is better. but which one is more complete and detailed?
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DeStRuCtIkOn
Complete in terms of what?
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Royce’s Girl
I think a lot depends on the specific instructor. I’ve trained with Royce Gracie and Carlos Machado… Royce is very self-defense oriented, teaches the basics and applies them to lots of situations, doesn’t teach for competition. Carlos teaches some very tricky, advanced moves, teaches for competition….

As for “systems” as a whole, I can’t say which is more “complete,” just that they both do a very excellent, complete job at teaching the same sport from very different points of view.
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george stiles
its the same system they r cousins of each other. they were taught by the same people and then started there own schools. i’m sure each muchado and each gracie teaches slightly different than the other.

royces girl i’m jealous you have had the chance to train with 2 of the greats
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Royce’s Girl
I’m not so sure you could call it the same system. The Gracies very specifically call it “Gracie Jiu-Jitsu” and the Machados use “Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.” Same general idea, with a range of teaching philosophy. Sure they’re cousins, but the teaching and emphasis varies greatly between families and between brothers within the families. And so it should…I love taking seminars from Gracies other than Royce and from any Machado. My biggest problem with the Japanese JJ style I started out in was that “sensei” wanted me to learn only from him. What a waste!
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setsu nin to
Royce’s Girl

My biggest problem with the Japanese JJ style I started out in was that “sensei” wanted me to learn only from him. What a waste!

Well is nothing unusual for Japanese Jujutsu. In some Japanese schools you have even to sing contract that you wont join to any other martial arts organization, they you wont show art, some whants diplomas back if you leave organization…

If I may ask what ryu do you study?
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Royce’s Girl
I studied Wa Shin Ryu Jujutsu at college, a mediocre system founded by previously excellent Judo player. So yes, Grand Master presided over our workouts, and yes, I was stripped of my rank when I left.
quote:

Originally posted by setsu nin to
Royce’s Girl

My biggest problem with the Japanese JJ style I started out in was that “sensei” wanted me to learn only from him. What a waste!

Well is nothing unusual for Japanese Jujutsu. In some Japanese schools you have even to sing contract that you wont join to any other martial arts organization, they you wont show art, some whants diplomas back if you leave organization…

If I may ask what ryu do you study?

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setsu nin to

Royce’s Girl

Wa Shin Ryu Jujutsu? Yiannakis?

Well belive me, you are really lucky becouse you leave that place. You wouldnt learn there anything about Japanese Jujutsu. Yiannakis is clovn, he is fake.
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Royce’s Girl
Whoa, I hope you just found the website, and don’t have any personal experience…

Please note the page on competition rules, should you be looking for a laugh.

Just curious, why do you think Yiannakis is fake?
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setsu nin to
Royce’s Girl

To be honest I realy dont know nothing about his competition rules.

Well how I know for Yiannakis and Wa Shin Ryu Jujutsu is realy long story. In short everything start few years ago as funn between me and friend, and today its serious project on which work group of martial artists from US and Europe. Its all about fake dojos, senseis and styles of Japanese martial arts. So thats how I finde Yiannakis. As you mention his webpage I wisited it…

Why he is fake?
Well where to start.

I think that he had enought time (38 years experienc in martial arts as he said) to learn that Judo was developed from Tenshin Shinyo Ryu and not Tenshin Shin Yo Ryu. Such school as Tenshin Shin Yo Ryu was never recongnised by Nihon Kobudo Shinkokai or Nihon Kobudo Kyokai.

Also he finde classical, modern and modern sport Judo??? Judo is modern martial art, so it cant be classical.

Cunningham is Judoka and he have nothing with Takagi ryu which is major influence of Wa Shin Ryu Jujutsu.

Yiannakis didnt learn Aikijujutsu and haw nothing with it and have no legal right to teach anything from Aikijujutsu. All that he learned about Aikijujutsu as he claim he learned from Cunningham and it was Aikido.

So in the end you get that Yiannakis dont hav nothing with Jujutsu. Its Judo which he modified.

In eighies it was very popular that Judokas who dont have nothing with Jujutsu open Jujutsu schools claiming that they teach Jujutsu.

Also USJA dont have any authority to decide anything about Jujutsu and its not recognise for that from any respect Jujutsu organization.

Also Yiannakis rank sistem is very interesting. I never saw something like that.

But moust of all I like that part about tatto. Maybe he whatchs too much of muvies.

So to end my storye. Mr. Yiannakis have legal right to teach only Judo and nothing more. His lineage is all fake (not include Judo). That what he teach is nothing more than adapted version of Judo with kicks and punches.
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IKOyou
Our school is associated with Rigan Machado. We dont do a whole lot of self defence but we do some. We drill techniques, especially gurad and passing guard, and a lot of sparring.
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Royce’s Girl
Amazing!! You’ve really done your homework and brought up points about his level of fraud I hadn’t even considered. Its interesting…when I had rank in the club, it was rank through the USJA (I had a USJA membership card that listed my rank in the club). I don’t know why they granted him affiliation.

I can only assume that a need for more power and more absolute authority caused him to create his own style of Jujutsu, so he wouldn’t be under anyone else’s authority. Its too bad; UConn could use a good Judo club. One of his main problems with me switching to BJJ is that BJJ isn’t a “pure, classical” art…and he is quite certain that his is.

And yes, the tattoo…quite a few students have one.

What do you mean by “legal right” to teach Jujutsu? Are we talking about written rules of martial art systems, etiquette of the arts, or actual legality?

quote:

Why he is fake?
Well where to start.

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silent rogue
quote:

Originally posted by DeStRuCtIkOn
Complete in terms of what?

i guess most complete methods, techniques, skill?
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setsu nin to
Royce’s Girl

What do you mean by “legal right” to teach Jujutsu? Are we talking about written rules of martial art systems, etiquette of the arts, or actual legality?

Its bouth.
In Japan they have their internal unwritten and written rules about martial arts, so if you “play” by rules and you are good you will become respect member of Japanese martial arts comunity, if you dont “play” by rules they will excomunicate you in some way. They wont invite you to main martial arts events, they wont take you as authority…
But also there are law rules about it. But they dont care much about whats happening outside the Japan. That someone open fake Dojo in Japan he would have real problems with law, but if you open it outside Japan that they just ironic say “West”.

If you open Kate ryu Jujutsu you need few things. You will be founder, also you need denshos with all technique so that you may proove that techniques are yours and these are your techniques and you have all rights to them. So if I whant to open Kate ryu Jujutsu Dojo than I have to get or some rank in Kate ryu Jujutsu or you have to agree with that, or you have to choose me… it depende on your rules as head master. Now problem is when I dont have rank to open it or when you dont whant to allowed me to open it. Than I may just open Ka-te ryu Jujutsu, or Kate ryu Taijutsu, or Ka Te ryu Jujutsu, and you cant do nothing to me. But if I open Kate ryu Jujutsu you may sute me and we goes to cort.

When I said that he dont have legal right to teach I mean Aikijujutsu and Takagi ryu. Acording to law he have right to teach Jujutsu, becouse Jujutsu is to general term to put some limits on it. So anyone may open Jujutsu school and teach Karate or Judo or something else which dont have nothing with Jujutsu but he cant claim that he teach Jujutsu style that already exist and which he dont have rights from Soke to teach. He dont have right to claim that he learned Takagi ryu and Aikijujutsu from Cunningham becouse Cunningham have nothing with these styles.
So to not have problems with law he said that he teached some of Aikijujutsu and didnt put any lineage about it. Same as he put Takagi ryu widouth any lineage exept Cunningham. He had to do that becouse he learned Aikido from Cunningham and becouse Cunningham have nothing with Takagi ryu.

I realy dont know why Yiannakis changed name to Tenshin Shin Yo Ryu instead of Tenshin Shinyo ryu. I suppose that he put it in his lineage becouse of comercial and thats all, becouse acording to his lineage his conection with Tenshin Shinyo Ryu is Kano noone after him and all after Kano are Judokas so they have nothing with Tenshin Shinyo Ryu.
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DeStRuCtIkOn

quote:

Originally posted by silent rogue
i guess most complete methods, techniques, skill?

As far as methods go, they’re both equally incomplete as they are highly specialized groundwork schools and have little outside of that range of fighting.

In terms of techniques, I’d give it to the Gracie lineage as they do not focus on any particular kind of fighting (sport or self defense) so they would have a larger curriculum and “more complete” techniques.

Skill is a much tougher aspect to quantify. A good number of people here would tell you that the sport oriented pracitioners of the Machado style would be of a greater skill since they work constantly within competitive formats etc. I don’t feel like turning this thread into something it isn’t (i.e. a debate about the worth of sport), so I will simply defer to this mainstream ideology and say that the Machado schools produce greater skills.
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EvilScott
My understanding is that Machado JJ is a little bit more street savvy, ie. submissions that don’t leave you open to bites, etc.

That is just what I heard though, so I may be competely wrong.
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JiuJitsu
DeStRuCtIkOn,

BJJ is only as incomplete as a stand up style that teaches no groundfighting
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EvilScott
Its just as incomplete but stand-up tends to be a little bit more versatile in non-ring situations.

I defiately train ground AND standup, and frown on those who train ONLY standup, but I’d take only-standup over only-ground.
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silent rogue
thanks for the replies everyone.

anyone live in michigan?

erik paulson is hosting a seminar up near detroit i think this weekend
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IKOyou
quote:

Originally posted by silent rogue

anyone live in michigan?

Sure, a lot of people live there.
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DeStRuCtIkOn
quote:

Originally posted by JiuJitsu
DeStRuCtIkOn,

BJJ is only as incomplete as a stand up style that teaches no groundfighting

Yeah. And?
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JiuJitsu
“Yeah. And?”

And…..Nothing,nothing more
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silent rogue
quote:

Originally posted by IKOyou
quote:

Originally posted by silent rogue

anyone live in michigan?

Sure, a lot of people live there.

funny funny

=//
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Ninja Kl0wn
fock Silent Rouge. Next time you have something important to tell us like that, make sure you give us some time. Telling us like two days in advance is pointless. None of us will have time to plan the trip up there, and it only leaves us disapointed to know we missed it. Thanks, you’ve ruined my weekend. focker.
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silent rogue
quote:

Originally posted by Ninja Kl0wn
fock Silent Rouge. Next time you have something important to tell us like that, make sure you give us some time. Telling us like two days in advance is pointless. None of us will have time to plan the trip up there, and it only leaves us disapointed to know we missed it. Thanks, you’ve ruined my weekend. focker.

i had mentioned it like almost a month ago. just not in the Styles area.
my appologies.
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