closed guard and other bjj techniques in a streetfight

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closed guard and other bjj techniques in a streetfight
Original Poster: Sparky-bjj
Forum: Grappling & Jiu-Jitsu
Posted On: 06-03-2006, 20:50

Orginal Post: Sparky-bjj: What does everybody here think about the closed guard in a streetfight? What do you guys do to avoid punches when you have someone in your closed guard out on the streets? I’ve personally never had a streetfight where I had to fight someone from closed guard. I think you all agree that the closed guard is a versatile but dangerous position to be in out on the streets, but what if you had to fight from it? In my gym where I train bjj there is a lot of emphasis on the closed guard (as in every bjj school) but we hardly ever see what to do when you have someone in your closed guard out on the streets who isn’t trying to pass your guard but who is trying to punch your face into a bloody pulp. I personally think that is a problem very common in modern bjj schools, the emphasis is highly on sport jiu-jitsu and/or vale tudo and less on self defence on the streets. Offcourse sport jiu-jitsu is usefull on the streets, but jumping to closed guard on the streets for example isn’t the smartest thing to do whereas in spot competion this can be an advantage and at our gym we sometimes train jumping guard. I personally think that when you have someone in your closed guard on the streets you constantly have to keep moving and changing your position using your hips. Never lay flat on your back completely still! Keep your opponent really really close and underhook or overhook one or both arms. Then try to sweep or attack the opponent, wich isn’t veru difficult on the streets as they propably don’t know what to do and are propably wildly flinging their arms so that a sweep/triangle/armlock is never far away. Then another thing, I personally believe that a lot of the gi chokes can be used on the streets when using your opponents sweater, jacket or even his t-shirt. I’m not sure though that the classical choke from closed guard is usefull on the streets as I think it leaves you open for punches and you need both your arms to perform it. What do you guys think about ‘gi chokes’ out on the streets? I also believe that training with the gi is a better way of preparing yourself for the streets than training without the gi. Because in a street situation you’ll propably be wearing some sort of clothes and your enemy propably to. Do you guys agree with that? I’m not saying that I know it best, I just wanted some other peoples opinions on this matter.

Post: bamboo:

This is an anecdote that proves nothing but still worth mentioning.

A while back a friend met me after class and was all “pumped” having just watched TUF, he opened his arms for a hug and immediatly jumped on me, wrapped himself around my body and worked to get his hooks in.
Still standing I walked him over to the curb and asked if he still wanted to be on bottom?

Take from that what you will.

BJJ works, there is no doubt, just be smart when, where and what you do with it and you’ll be fine.

-bamboo>

Post: buicken:

bamboo, are you sure he wasn’t just being affectionate?
was he nibbling on your ears? At the end of the night was your friend on bottom, or did you take turns?
Why did you not aikido chop him?>

Post: Gazelle:

Maybe it was more fun not to.>

Post: samurai6string:

I have to concur, you might be able to use BJJ in the streets, but is a derivitive of Judo, and therfore designed to be used in competition, not self defense. I believe that is one of the areas where JJJ has it over BJJ. I would never, let me repeat NEVER purposefully pull gaurd in any fight. Another consideration: what if you go to guard and your assailant pulls out a knife? If I am absolutely forced into a grappling situation on the street, you better believe I am going to vie for dominant position, I.E. top.

Bamboo> the first time someone pulled gaurd on me in Jujustsu class, I had no idea what was going on, (this was before the first U.F.C.) I just stood up taking him with me and then sprawled, gravity did the rest :)>

Post: bamboo:

I would like to add so no internet warriors go crying to some other board that some guy here says the guard won’t work.

I have been submitted countless times from the guard when rolling, but then, who hasn’t?

-bamboo>

Post: samurai6string:

lol, It’s all a fad. In another 10 years everyone will move on to something else and BJJ will no longer be the flavor of the month. Don’t get me wrong, it works well for COMPETITION, just not so much for self defense in the street. It has been the “in” thing for about a good 10-15 years already, so it should mirror the Karate explosion in the 70’s and 80’s.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

If he’s driving at you in a car, Jump guard

I was on the bjj doesn work in the street band wagon. Now that i’ve actually trained in it, you see things totally differently. Like it works like what Judo, and other ju jitsu arts work in real life situations. It doesn’t mean that you have to go right to guard in the streets. You’re also not going to tap a person on the street either. You gain superior position and rain down on his ass. Now the fault in BJJ is the handling of multiple attackers and obviously if you’re unable to reach the ground. Me personally I still wouldn’t take a fight to the ground and would try to finish it standing, however if a fight does go to the ground, I wont be lost and panicy. Instead I would be confident and still comfortable.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

bjj is alos a big part of JKD….a reality based fighting concept.>

Post: samurai6string:

ah, remember Panta, I studied Kodenkan & Danzan Ryu Jujutsu of the Wally Jay persuasion (small circle), so I was not exactly a stranger to the guard. I think it has its uses, and it can be valuable to know how to fight from your back if you are PUT in that position, I just don’t believe it is a position you should seek to gain on purpose. I think the real weakness in BJJ in terms of self defense is the fact that most schools don’t teach things such as redirection, or techniques off of a punch or kick or grab. Also, learning Muay Thai + BJJ doesn’t necessarily equip you for fighting in the street. Knowing how to throw a kick and cause pain is completely different than learning how to throw a kick in order to break balance. But that is just my opinion, so take it for what it is worth, if anything.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=samurai6string ah, remember Panta, I studied Kodenkan & Danzan Ryu Jujutsu of the Wally Jay persuasion (small circle), so I was not exactly a stranger to the guard. I think it has its uses, and it can be valuable to know how to fight from your back if you are PUT in that position, I just don’t believe it is a position you should seek to gain on purpose. I think the real weakness in BJJ in terms of self defense is the fact that most schools don’t teach things such as redirection, or techniques off of a punch or kick or grab. Also, learning Muay Thai + BJJ doesn’t necessarily equip you for fighting in the street. Knowing how to throw a kick and cause pain is completely different than learning how to throw a kick in order to break balance. But that is just my opinion, so take it for what it is worth, if anything.[/quote 

I agree, and I dont support going to the guard in a street fight. Only if you end up there basically, but still, try to gain a better position. I also agree with you that BJJ is really lacking in strikes, obviously (redirecting, trapping, and to an extent blocking). People who suppliment their bjj training with MT are doing so for sport. I however actually started bjj to suppliment my Kung Fu training. Now it’s all i train in. I actually hold to the JKD concept.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

oh yeah, and alot of schools, including mine, incorporate a MMA sylabus. There you do learn a lot of striking concepts.

but again

JKD JKD JKD…LOL.>

Post: samurai6string:

I’m done beating that dead horse, I think I was actually flogging it there for a while :) I’m just naturally biased I suppose. I still have that wrestler’s instinct and insane paranoia of being on my back.

Besides, I guess it all really goes back to the mantra repeated on this site over and over: There is no great martial art, only great martial artists. :)>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=samurai6string I’m done beating that dead horse, I think I was actually flogging it there for a while :) I’m just naturally biased I suppose. I still have that wrestler’s instinct and insane paranoia of being on my back.

Besides, I guess it all really goes back to the mantra repeated on this site over and over: There is no great martial art, only great martial artists. :)[/quote 

doode we agree about not prefering to be on our backs in a street fight lol :D>

Post: samurai6string:

I agree that we disagree that we agree to disagree, because we agree in all actuality. :lol:>

Post: Gazelle:

If you agree in all actuality, then you needn’t bother to agree to disagree, because there is no reason to agree that you agree to disagree.>

Post: Sparky-bjj:

Quote:
have to concur, you might be able to use BJJ in the streets, but is a derivitive of Judo, and therfore designed to be used in competition, not self defense. I believe that is one of the areas where JJJ has it over BJJ.

I don’t agree with that statement. Bjj was originally designed as a way of self defense, this was what helio had in mind. Helio wanted to create a martial art for smaller, older, weaker people to defend against stronger people. He also wanted to test his techniques against an opponent who was resisting with all his might. Thus sport jiu-jitsu was born. It’s the same evolution that happened to muay thai. But bjj wasn’t originally designed to be used in competition. Furthermore I think training bjj in a typical school is a good way for self defense, even if you train almost exclusively sport jiu jitsu. This is the same with muay thai, in a muay thai school you also train for competion, but muay thai is also a good way to defend yourself.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

Dammit man, Helio didn’t create BJJ, get it straight.>

Post: bamboo:

Sure he did, techniques from one art, different emphasis, different philosophy = new art.

Otherwise, its all cavemanfu>

Post: Gazelle:

Cavemanfu?>

Post: bamboo:

caveman + fu = bad joke.

I mean to say that if you look hard enough, there are elements of most arts in each.

-bamboo>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=bamboo Sure he did, techniques from one art, different emphasis, different philosophy = new art.

Otherwise, its all cavemanfu[/quote 

I see you’re trying to be difficult.

He didn’t…Helio learned from Carlos. Carlos is the founder of BJJ. In his book the Essence of BJJ, Rigan Machado is quoted “This book is dedicated to my uncle, Carlos Gracie, FOUNDER of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.>

Post: bamboo:

well done.

I am clearly in the wrong.

-bamboo>

Post: nbotary:

[quote=samurai6string I still have that wrestler’s instinct and insane paranoia of being on my back. [/quote From one former wrestler to another… I was playing football and we were the visiting team. We used the home team’s wrestling facility to change, etc. There was a sign on the ceiling over where the mats were located. It read: “If you can read this, you need to work on your last move!”.>

Post: bamboo:

One thing I’d like to add is that people are constantly saying the guard will not work on the street beacuse of : friends, debris, weapons..etc.

Well quite frankly any of those will render most MAs null and void. Where I live there is not alot of broken glass on the streets, I’ve never seen a syringe on the ground and jagged rocks simply don’t litter the sidewalk.

In the end, if a closed guard is appropriate, then why the heck not? Its not a competition, its closing the space and breaking an arm.
It works just fine in the end.

-bamboo>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=bamboo well done.

I am clearly in the wrong.

-bamboo[/quote 

*doing the Balky Bartokomus’ dance of joy*>

Post: zefff:

[quote=bamboo 
Well quite frankly any of those will render most MAs null and void. Where I live there is not alot of broken glass on the streets, I’ve never seen a syringe on the ground and jagged rocks simply don’t litter the sidewalk.
[/quote 

Hahaha!! So its not just me who thought the fear of tarmac shredding your back was a bit silly. I dunno about most guard-pulling guys but when I go out I wear clothes. :idea: :lol:>

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