Countering the counter: Triangle choke

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Countering the counter: Triangle choke
Original Poster: Ninja Kl0wn
Forum: Grappling & Jiu-Jitsu
Posted On: 14-06-2004, 00:04

Orginal Post: Ninja Kl0wn: The triangle choke from guard is by far my favorite submission (except for striking them into submission of course). The problem comes when they start to counter. I know one or two simple counter-counters to move to, but I rarely pull them off and usually end up abandoning the hold to keep from getting myself put into an inferior position.

I’m just curious as to what counters you jiu-jitsu enthusiasts prefer when someone goes to counter your triangle. I’m talking basic triangle counters, like getting stacked or the “slam thier knee to ground and slide out”. The more detail the better, and if you have links to a video clip of it being used that’s a definate plus. You might bring up some detail I’m leaving out in my own counters, or there will be a few I’ve never seen/heard of. I’ll take the ones that seem to click in my head logically and get my instructor to walk me through them after a class.

Post: Royce’s Girl:

I find that if someone can counter my triangle by stacking me or moving laterally, then my triangle wasn’t well timed, or I haven’t rotated my body enough to be perpendicular to my opponent. Once I’m perpendicular and have a leg up behind his neck, it becomes very difficult for my opponent to stack me successfully. Putting a leg up without being perpendicular is just kind of an aid to his guardpass and gets me stacked up really fast.

I’m not sure what you mean by “slam the knee to the ground and slide out…”>

Post: Ninja Kl0wn:

http://bjj.org/techniques/intheguard/escapetriangle/escapetriangle.avi>

Post: dudehere:

if ur on the ground u already lost the fight>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I wonder why no one thought of telling the Gracies this?>

Post: Royce’s Girl:

Damn it!! That’s it, I quit BJJ…what a bunch of losers…rolling around on the ground, ha!

:twisted:

[quote=dudehere if ur on the ground u already lost the fight[/quote >

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=dudehere if ur on the ground u already lost the fight[/quote 

You’re a funny little man. People like him give a bad image for people who don’t like ground fighting (for realistic reasons) like me. :(

On topic though, using the Triangle is one of my favorite moves when I am forced onto the ground. If someone gets out of it I push kick with both feet to make some distance and get back up.

Also remember if someone tries to get out of the choke you can easily switch to an arm bar.>

Post: Ninja Kl0wn:

[quote=dudehere if ur on the ground u already lost the fight[/quote 

This knowledge seems so profound coming from a guy who can’t spell three letter words correctly.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

You’ve probably been using the triangle a lot longer than I have, but so far my favorite thing to do when someone starts to stack me is to switch to an armbar, like Scott said. The thing is, though, for it to work you have to switch as soon as they start to stand up and you realize you can’t suck them back in with your legs. If they start to apply downward pressure onto you, you’re too late.

Also, I have to know: who is that in your avatar?>

Post: The Axe Murderer:

[quote=Ninja Kl0wn http://bjj.org/techniques/intheguard/escapetriangle/escapetriangle.avi[/quote Great Video, This is so that it breaks the lock by dropping the foot to the ground hence which the person can’t get you into the lock with straightly balancing and getting grip to execute the triangle.>

Post: FallenxAngel66:

The triangle choke also happens to be one of my favorite moves, aside from the arm bar. hehe. gotta love those arm bars. Anyway, honestly I’m not one of the strongest people out there and occasionally when I have someone in the triangle, they either find a way to flip me so that I am in a really bad position, or they just wait for me to get tired and losen up a little bit which or course leaves room for tons of moves. Also, some of my friends have actually managed to stand which makes i really hard for me to maintain the choke. Standing up also brings on the head-rush which is a major bummer.

“if ur on the ground u already lost the fight”

As for you people that bashed BJJ earlier, you can all go to hell because in a real fight, a lot of the time it will end up on the ground and if you cant defend yourself, then your f*cked.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=FallenxAngel66 As for you people that bashed BJJ earlier, you can all go to hell because in a real fight, a lot of the time it will end up on the ground and if you cant defend yourself, then your f*cked.[/quote 

As much respect as I have for BJJ, your statement is folly. If the fight goes to the ground, you don’t need BJJ to win. If a BJJ guy takes you to the ground your fucked, but if average joe takes you to the ground its usually for a weak mount for some head shots. A simple push kick to the abs and standing back up will get you out of that situation, and most people who take you down aren’t exactly high quality and BASIC sprawl training will set you up well.

BJJ ground fighting means 100% commitment to one opponent – in one on one fights this is great, but in multiple attacker or POTENTIAL multiple attacker situations you better be careful.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Scott, sorry if I’m misinterpreting this, but how do you plan to push kick someone who’s got you in mount?

I view BJJ in the same light as I view my knife. I would never go into a fight planning to use it, but if the shit hits the fan and I have to, someone’s getting injured.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=*Gong*Sao* Scott, sorry if I’m misinterpreting this, but how do you plan to push kick someone who’s got you in mount?[/quote 

Butterfly guard is my default if they try to mount. If they get the mount most untrained people sit too high and a side-buck will take care of them.[/quote 

[quote=*Gong*Sao* I view BJJ in the same light as I view my knife. I would never go into a fight planning to use it, but if the shit hits the fan and I have to, someone’s getting injured.[/quote 

Amen brudda – you just exactly described my attitude towards my knife and my groundfighting.>

Post: FallenxAngel66:

I know that you don’t need BJJ to win a fight, but it would help me a lot considering I’m not too strong or heavy. If someone that weighs like 100 lbs more than me is on top of me, theres a not a whole lot i can think of without the aid of BJJ. Honestly, in this day and age, a teen girl is what most rapist or muggers will go after. If some strange guy manages to get me on the ground then I wouldn’t know what to do (if i didnt know BJJ). If you can think of anything I’d really like to know (no sarcasm)>

Post: EvilScott:

I would suggest Chin Na for some serious close range damage or ANY kind of basic ground training to get back up.

Also – you should probably look into getting a small knife for those “OH SHIT” moments. Just make sure to follow laws in your area. :mrgreen:>

Post: pagan:

Actually 99% of fights will go to the ground, even if both combatants don’t wish it to. That’s a statistic not a guess. BJJ makes you deal with highest threat first (which would be the person who has you in their mount or you have in your guard ) but I see plenty of students in my class go against more then one opponent and usually come out victorious due to the fact that the multiple attackers get in eachothers way. Granted it sucks going to the ground in a club against multiple attackers and you are surely at a disadvantage if you do not keep your head. That is why most BJJ users have another form that is good at striking. BJJ is clearly the best form on the ground. Combine that with a decent striking form ( Kempo ) you have yourself a well rounded student.>

Post: pagan:

[quote=EvilScott I would suggest Chin Na for some serious close range damage or ANY kind of basic ground training to get back up.

Also – you should probably look into getting a small knife for those “OH SHIT” moments. Just make sure to follow laws in your area. :mrgreen:[/quote 

Being a Police Officer I don’t see how having a knife for any “oh Shit” moments will help you out in anyway or follow any laws. If you can’t fight or are at that much of a disadvantage then
a) run
b) call the police
c) scream like a scared girl ( because anyone that needs a knife is)
d) all of the above>

Post: Ninja Kl0wn:

[quote=”pagan”
Being a Police Officer I don’t see how having a knife for any “oh Shit” moments will help you out in anyway or follow any laws. If you can’t fight or are at that much of a disadvantage then
a) run
b) call the police
c) scream like a scared girl ( because anyone that needs a knife is)
d) all of the above[/quote 

If you’re at that much of a disadvantage, you’re probably getting your head beaten in and CAN’T do any of the above. Fuck the law, if I’m in a situation where I am so afraid of the imment danger of being killed that I feel I need to pull my knife then that guy is dead. All we have to do is be reminded of the “hockey dad” incident to remember how easily you can be killed by someone’s bare hands, even someone who isn’t a trained fighter.>

Post: Fa Jing:

[quote=pagan Actually 99% of fights will go to the ground, even if both combatants don’t wish it to. That’s a statistic not a guess. BJJ makes you deal with highest threat first (which would be the person who has you in their mount or you have in your guard ) but I see plenty of students in my class go against more then one opponent and usually come out victorious due to the fact that the multiple attackers get in eachothers way. Granted it sucks going to the ground in a club against multiple attackers and you are surely at a disadvantage if you do not keep your head. That is why most BJJ users have another form that is good at striking. BJJ is clearly the best form on the ground. Combine that with a decent striking form ( Kempo ) you have yourself a well rounded student.[/quote 

hmm. 99% huh, then dont count me in that statistic. I have never been in a street fight that has gone to the ground. Been in lots of fights (15 or so that i can remember at the moment) all it consist of was the guy getting right in my face, swing miss most of the time and i KO. Granted i have been bum rushed but ima a big guy i dont go where i dont wanna u know what i mean? Plus i have taken some JJ for anti grappling. Any form of grappling is a good art. But the great mistake is planning to grapple or planning to do anything in a fight. I have seen many friends lose because they get arrogent and start telling the onlookers before the fight what they are and arent gonna do.>

Post: Fa Jing:

[quote=pagan [quote=EvilScott I would suggest Chin Na for some serious close range damage or ANY kind of basic ground training to get back up.

Also – you should probably look into getting a small knife for those “OH SHIT” moments. Just make sure to follow laws in your area. :mrgreen:[/quote 

Being a Police Officer I don’t see how having a knife for any “oh Shit” moments will help you out in anyway or follow any laws. If you can’t fight or are at that much of a disadvantage then
a) run
b) call the police
c) scream like a scared girl ( because anyone that needs a knife is)
d) all of the above[/quote 

Apparently you have never been jumped by 10 bat welding “gangstas”. A knife (some kind of weapon) is VERY necissary under those conditions.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Pagan, how can a fight go to the ground if neither person wants to be there? If I’m fighting someone and they fall or I throw them, then a) I’ll leave or b) if I think it’s serious enough, I’m kicking their head in. Having a knife isn’t about “not being able to fight”, it’s for situations where your life is threatened. I’m sorry but I don’t view it as being “a scared little girl”, I view it as someone else trying to stop me from going home. If, like Kl0wn said, you feel your life is threatened, do whatever you can to make sure you’re the one who leaves.

As for BJJ being “clearly the best form on the ground”, I don’t know what to say besides bullshit.>

Post: Fa Jing:

BJJ is an eclectic style right? (Gracies version of JJ) Personally, i like Pankration or catch as catch can>

Post: pagan:

Well to inform anyone feeling threatened or not pulling a knife escalates the situation and doing so the blame (law wise) for the situation automatically becomes yours. As far as the bat wielding statement I have and being a Close Combat Instructor in the Marine Corps I can assure you a Knife is not the best weapon for ten bat wielding guys your feet are as in leave and run. I assure you, if you run and I see you being chased by ten bat wielding men they will be dropping the bats quickly due to my weapon being aimed at them. As far as going to the ground it is very easy for a inexperienced fighter to miss and over balance thus closing distance which would then either lead to elbows and knees (which would drop the person to the GROUND) where you would have to finish them or you could walk away or would lead to a sweep and first instinct by the untrained would be to grab and go to the ground (hence your on the GROUND). Just carrying the knife can lead to problems. If you show it – its called menacing (a Misdemeanor) – if you attempt to strike – its attempted assault 1st ( a felony). No matter the circumstances (EXCEPT in your own house) you will be prosecuted no matter what happened. This seems to be the trend…. I’ll carry a knife (maybe have some alcohol, maybe start losing in a fight that I started) and then I’ll stab someone and wonder why the police are pointing there guns at me and arresting me. If I pull up to a situation and (hypothetically) I have 1 round in my weapon there are five combatants and you with a knife fighting and you are trying to strike with that knife your getting my one round and the rest will be dealt with.

And what pray tell is the best form on the ground – that has been proven (i.e. ufc’s, street combat, etc) ????>

Post: bamboo:

I have a few points.

1. Pagan- Where did you get this 99% go to the ground stat? Police arresting techniques are not the same as street fights so that does not count. Who and when did a recognized scientific body do a true statistical analysis of street fights and how they work? If your stats are coming from the BJJ world then please understand this is nothing more than marketing.

2. What is better than BJJ on the ground? How about what is equal? Good judo (kosen), several japanese schools of jujutsu, greco-roman wrestling, shooto…………
Pagan wrote:

Quote:
…..And what pray tell is the best form on the ground – that has been proven

You tell me with real proof. You made the statement that BJJ is the best, its not up to anyone else to prove you wrong, its up to you to prove yourself right.

3.

Quote:
but I see plenty of students in my class go against more then one opponent and usually come out victorious due to the fact that the multiple attackers get in eachothers way

How is this possible using your own statement that 99% of the fights go to the ground? Do they end up in the guard and the other attackers fall over themselves while kicking the defender in the head while he’s dealing with the single guy?

This is silly.

-bamboo>

Post: FHATODude:

[quote=”Katsu Jin Ken” [quote=pagan Actually 99% of fights will go to the ground, even if both combatants don’t wish it to. .[/quote  If 99 percent of the fights go to the ground, then I must’ve seen all the fights that were standup because out of the 20 something fights i saw in my lifetime, only ONE went to the ground>

Post: pagan:

I’m not talking about arrest techniques I’m talking about fighting. The statistic came from my instructor manual from the Marine Corps… and it was a scientific study. Look at the UFC and other such tournaments that are no holds barred and where do the fights go ( most of the time ) to the ground. And what out of the competitions do most of the people study???? BJJ for grappling as well as a striking form. You guys are allowed to your opinion as I’am you can disagree with me about the forms all you want, that;s a discussion that we can debate on but the statements about the knife is unrealistic, dangerous, and juvenile.

Back to BJJ…tell me what fighter has won consecutive championship matches (GRACIE) that did not take BJJ. Granted other forms are equal and have there advantages but in my opinion BJJ is the best (that could just be for me, but seeing as how the form has grown in popularity I think it is not just me.>

Post: pagan:

Second thought, I just took a poll from my coworkers who are all in one form or another and they all agreed that all the fights that they have witnessed have gone to the ground.
Scenario
Person with longer reach gets one or two strikes
Person with shorter reach then shoots in and takes him to the ground. I have only seen two fights stay up and that is because first strike knocked the person out.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

First, one person getting knocked down doesn’t constitute going to the ground.

Second, you’re the one who made juvenile statements about knife wielding. No one here was talking about being drunk and losing a fight.

Third, when we’re talking about fights going to the ground we’re usually talking about fights, not competition matches.

Finally, why would you go around shooting people when you have no idea what’s going on?>

Post: pagan:

It’s called a crime in progress, when someone is in the act of commiting a felony deadly force is authorized. And unless you want a fight to keep going when your opponent is at a disadvantage you would push the advantage to the ground. So you can put it under your own guidlines all you want but if the person gets hit and falls and the other closes to take advantage the fight is now on the ground. Second, I stated the law and advised how the ill conceived notion of carrying a knife can get you in trouble. Knives have no place in fighting unless the person pulls one on you. Unless your fighting in a huge open field fights will go to the ground due to specific circumstances (i.e. being driven to a wall then grabbing and going to the ground). I’m done explaining… you with your 19 yrs of worldly experience you know more then me who has studied three forms and been in hand to hand combat in war. So your word is gospel and I’m done argueing. The bottom line carry a knife in my state and pulling it in a fight is #1 Your going to hurt someone and be charged #2 Get shot by a responding officer #3 If you pull it on people I know your going to get hurt …BAD. Stick with your ideas that you feel are right until you get some more experience and then your going to realize your own folly. Speaking to more people about this they laugh and say anyone who has not seen a majority of a fight go to the ground has number one seen two inexperienced fighters or 2 seen one really outclassed fighter get his butt handed to him.>

Post: Fa Jing:

Pagan i have a question for you.

How long have you studied BJJ? Is that the only art you have ever studied? How come you spell Brazilian Jujutsu in your profile Brazilian Jui Jitsu?>

Post: Fa Jing:

Oh my bad. After rereading your profile i know why you spell it that way. State Trooper huh, then you know the basics of ground fighting and nothing about striking (so im told by some cops i know about what they learned in the academy).>

Post: pagan:

I’ve taken it out of the police force as well as other forms. MY striking is above average so I wanted to concentrate on my Grappling hence BJJ>

Post: Fa Jing:

striking is above average, so is mine. What style did you take? and dont say str33t b0x1ng

<WC here>

Post: Gong||Jau:

[quote=pagan Knives have no place in fighting unless the person pulls one on you.[/quote 

If you’re going to play the experience card, you might want to ditch the idea that someone is going to brandish a knife at you and then the two of you are going to knife fight. If the person intends to use it you won’t know they have it until they cut you with it.

But, I suppose I should just shut up and let my wise elders discuss things that are obviously beyond my capacity to understand.>

Post: Bushi:

Back on Topic:

Triangle escape #1

Push into the opponent attempting a stack.
Take a large side step towards the locked leg side. Push 45 degrees hard (stack) across opponents body. This will break the legs. The pattern resembles the number 7.
Go back in his guard.

Triangle escape#2
Do not let your arm get pushed across your face.
Straighten it towards his head grabbing behind his neck.
Assist with the non trapped arm to create a neck crank (standard can opener), breaking the triangle

Triangle escape#3
Prior to him securing the strangle arch your back and drive towards his head with your entire body.
As you drive arching your back, pull the trapped arm out with quick jutting movements. Be leary of Armbar conversion. If you drive while pulling arm back this will not be possible.

There are a few more complicated ones that I do not feel will translate to text.

Enjoy>

Post: Bushi:

Lets see, I have been summoned to give my perspective and take on this matter being that like Pagan (if he is telling the truth) I am a Law Enforcement Officer as well. First I would like define a few things.

Use of Weapons

Felony- The use or attempt to cause injury or harm. This is based on the victims perception. Ie. I point a real looking toy gun at a person in an unlawful violent, aggressive manner. It is treated as a real gun by the law, because the victim will reasonable percieve it as such. This is true of all weapons. Bat, pipe, knife, sword etc.

Misdemeanor- In some states it is unlawful to carry/conceal any knife, some specify its style and length, while other could care less. If you carry a knife, I would make sure it is in accordance with State Law.
Now, if your State does not care, by all means carry the knife. For instance in the State I was a Local LEO closed Lock Blades were legal concealed. Fixed blades were not. Noe if a person had a locked blade locked in the open position concealed it was now concidered a fixed blade and therefore illegal.

( I hope that did not confuse to many here)

Quote:
pagan wrote:
Knives have no place in fighting unless the person pulls one on you.

Technically this is true. If someone is using empty hands to assault you, you cannot up the level of force and therefore deploy a dangerous deadly weapon, because you are losing the fight. You take a non-deadly situation (Misdemeanor and make it a potentially lethal one (Felony). You WILL be held responsible for that escalation. Now if the other guy started the fist fight he is responsible for that part, but you are responsible for the Felony part.

(Depending on the situation and JURY) Now lets say the guy is beating you to a pulp (therefore crossing that line to felony, ie. serious physical injury to include death) you COULD be justified by deploying a weapon to match his use of force. I say could, because it depends on exigent circumstances. ie. Guy outweighs you by 100lbs, you feel in danger of losing your life, you are about to go unconscious, the list goes on and on.

Pagan Said:

Quote:
It’s called a crime in progress, when someone is in the act of commiting a felony deadly force is authorized

I will go further to say it must be a Violent felony. A Burglary is a felony and Deadly force is not warranted if the situation can be resolved using lesser force to perserve life and limb.
Tennessee v. Garner U.S. Supreme court decision.

I will go out on a limb and assume that is what you meant though.
Pagan Said:

Quote:
The statistic came from my instructor manual from the Marine Corps… and it was a scientific study.

I too was in the Marine Corps and this is not in the CCC manual and as far as MCMAP is concerned, I am friends with Mst.GySgt. C**** U*** (To protect his name, that should be enough for Pagan, if in fact he knows the creator of MCMAP) and I have the syllabus on CD through BB and I see no mention of 99% ground studybunch of spartan, Zulus and other warrior culture studies though :) . Either way, I will give a 75% odds of grounding in fights, which does not completely destroy your arguement, but does nothing to say BJJ is the best ground based system. (I study BJJ by the way)

As far as BJJ being the best in MMA,
ask Sakuraba (Judo,Wrestling)
ask Mark Coleman (Wrestling) prior to headbutts being illegal
ask Mark Kerr (Wrestling) prior to headbutts being illegal
ask Kevin Randalman (Wrestling)
ask Matt Hughs (Wrestling)
ask Randy Couture (Wrestling)
ask Bas Rutten (MT, Subgrap)
ask Frank Shamrock (Wrestling, Subgrap)
ask Ken Shamrock (Wrestling, SubGrap.)
ask Inoue Brothers (Judo)
ask Marco Ruas (considers himself Lutre Livre)
ask Carlos Newton (DBZ Jiujitsu, read JUDO)
ask Yoshita (Judo)
ask Kimura, M. (Judo)

Did I mention I train BJJ (and JJJ, Judo):D

I am not bashing you Pagan, If you are a LEO we are kindred, but this BJJ nutriding is ridiculous in our line of work, being most officers are shot by their own weapon, due to it being struggled from them. Now, thats a statistic I can get motivated to train over :(

Either way, I hope this helped the discussion.

Final note. Knives will get you in trouble with the law, unless you are justified to escalate the encounter and that is subjective. But as the old saying goes ” I’d rather be tried by twelve than carried by six”

Cheers
-Bushi>

Post: pagan:

Not in the MC Manual but in the CC Manual (class statistic given first day). I was taught by Mst.GySgt. D..V…. and it is L.I.N.E training that was taught I don’t know who you are referring to. I trained at Camp Geiger next to Lejuene where the school is. My unit was FAST Co 94-97 then 2/6 97-98. I’m not nutriding I’m saying it is a great form everyone seems to get upset when someone says they think BJJ is a great form. Even if you are justified escalating do you want to put that decision in the hands of the public who can’t talk to their neighbor enough not to call the police for a noise complaint. To encourage the public to carry a knife for oh shit moments as it was put is stupid. I would think that you would agree. Every time I take knife off someone it annoys me because it directly endangers MY safety. Plus I’m glad to see that you partly agree that MOST fights do go to the ground. I wasn’t going to go into the whole thing on violent felony but wanted to touch on the fact that there are police out there who will shoot first and ask questions later (unfortunately). People will escalate with a knife to fast and will hurt someone when they don’t have to. Not to mention if the person is striking with the knife it is the immediate threat of death or bodily injury we were talking about. Anyway, I’m done with this conversation. I just wanted to say that most fights go to the ground and that BJJ is the best form that I know of ( you can agree or disagree that is my opinion).

ps I will go out on a limb and assume that is what you meant though.
its not going out on a limb it is exactly what I meant.

by the way Semper Fidelis>

Post: Bushi:

Once again, I completely understand where you are coming from (POPO and all). My opinion on weapons carring is based on my belief in the 2nd Ammendment and obeying State laws. You would agree, that law abiding citizens are never the problem of the police regardless if they carry weapons. I personally do not like taking knives off people either, but I have never come into contact with an individual with a knife that did not break some other law first.

I would say that like 90% of the people who carry knives, should probably not be carring knives if you know what I mean.

As far as the Marine Corps goes. LINE has been assimilated into MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program). I was also taught LINE and got out prior to the intro of MCMAP :( It is 100% better program and the Mst.Gysgt. I wrote was the creator (Bad Mofo, by the way). On a side not, I know a guy from FAST during your stint. You probably knew him. Damn, small world.

Good Luck and Sermber Fi,
-Bushi

How about my Triangle escapes? :D>

Post: pagan:

Good Luck to you as well, Stay Safe out there.

Semper Fi>

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