Most effective takedown for the street?

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Most effective takedown for the street?
Original Poster: opariser1001
Forum: Grappling & Jiu-Jitsu
Posted On: 25-06-2005, 04:09

Orginal Post: opariser1001: What do you guys think? Double-leg? Single-leg? I just started jiu-jitsu so i dunno. Thoughts on this?

Post: Hengest:

From my experience, a left cross. :twisted:

In all seriousness though, a takedown is not something I’d be looking for in a street situation. If I did use one it would be because I’ve screwed up and let the other guy get in too close, in which case I’ll use the first one that comes to mind to get me out of a crappy situation as quickly as possible.

If you’re an excellent grappler (which I’m not) then going for a takedown may work but, overall, I think it’s a rather dangerous tactic in streetfighting.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Like Hengest said, I wouldn’t go into an altercation looking for a takedown. However, slamming someone to the ground is generally a pretty good way to end a fight, so if the opportunity arose I’d go for whatever presented itself. I’d probably look for either a double leg or a head and arm type throw, depending on how close to them I was.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

Any kind of suplex. It’s a ‘throw’ and not a ‘takedown’ in most lexicons, but still. If you toss somebody on their head neck or even shoulder blades with concrete breaking their fall, they won’t be as likely to get back up and fight some more.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

I go with Heng and Gong. You dont want to take someone to the ground in a real fight. My take on BJJ is to let the person himself take you to the ground and you dominate. That’s one reason bjj-ers work form their back so much. There is one person I know in my BJJ school who was in an actual street fight and took the dude to the ground with a double leg takedown. He was then stomped on by the other dude’s buddies. My philosophy is to keep the fight standing and let it go to the ground naturally. And in my experience in street fights, 110% of fights do no end up on the ground, no matter how much the gracies claim they do.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

Suplexes is a great way to stop a fight, but IMO requires too much strength. Maybe something along the line of a judo throw maybe. If that is done the I would not mount the person, rather knee on belly for the most. My preference is to stomp on him LOL.>

Post: BJJKyle:

My instructor always tells me not to put someone into your guard on the street. My best “takedown” for the street is:

Clinch, wrap up, and body slam.

Once on the ground, you obviously need to acquire the mount position to pummell his face in. Armbars and leglocks are rare in a street fight. Chokes, strikes, and kicks are mostly used. You should work around that aspect.>

Post: Sensei S. Hilaire:

So if everyone is talking about throwing your opponent down, why do so many people spend 90% of their training time doing ground work. Wouldn’t you want a 50/50 split in your training? You will do in the street what you do in class.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

[quote=BJJKyle 
Once on the ground, you obviously need to acquire the mount position to pummell his face in.[/quote 

I’d actually prefer knee-on-belly. It allows the same striking opportunities, and is easier to disengage from. Plus, it’s very good for holding someone down, and if you drop your knee into them and then grind it into their solar plexus, it’s just a little bit harder on them than mount.>

Post: BJJKyle:

[quote=Gong||Jau [quote=BJJKyle 
Once on the ground, you obviously need to acquire the mount position to pummell his face in.[/quote 

I’d actually prefer knee-on-belly. It allows the same striking opportunities, and is easier to disengage from. Plus, it’s very good for holding someone down, and if you drop your knee into them and then grind it into their solar plexus, it’s just a little bit harder on them than mount.[/quote 

Well, obviously you need to do what you are most comfortable with. I am talking about what would work for anyone, regaurdless of training.>

Post: zefff:

Quote:
So if everyone is talking about throwing your opponent down, why do so many people spend 90% of their training time doing ground work. Wouldn’t you want a 50/50 split in your training? You will do in the street what you do in class.

This was a very good question. I would like to reiterate it.>

Post: SAINT:

The only takedown i use is a stomp “through” the knee cap. dislodging the cap is easier than going for king hits, safer than grappling and you are out of range if using good form.

not a hands on takedown i admit, but they take themselves down. good for people bigger, stronger or “wired up” as pain is only a small factor in its application. Loss of mobility is the main aim, without mobility you are free to return to your life and walk away.

its also quick and if you contact just once, with good form, its all over.>

Post: Nihang:

I would personally aim to destroy ankles or knees to not allow the opponent to stand any more, or put on a spinal twist and force him down, either way I would want to be standing up while hes on the floor incase there is someone behind to jump in, mounting someone in the street is just asking for some a 3rd person to put a boot to the back of your head.>

Post: vladimir:

[quote=SAINT The only takedown i use is a stomp “through” the knee cap. dislodging the cap is easier than going for king hits, safer than grappling and you are out of range if using good form.

not a hands on takedown i admit, but they take themselves down. good for people bigger, stronger or “wired up” as pain is only a small factor in its application. Loss of mobility is the main aim, without mobility you are free to return to your life and walk away.

its also quick and if you contact just once, with good form, its all over.[/quote 

It’s also good against people who are certain types of drugs or drunk because often they can’t feel the pain.>

Post: crowe98:

I agree with alot of the above statements. More so with those that talk about the buba factor. Dont go to the ground unless your forced there if you go get in the dominate position not the gaurd and watch your back. But this doesnt mean that you should not try to get him on the ground. Nothing wrong with him on the ground and your standing up. Remember anything goes on the street provided that you didnt start it and your use of force is consistant with state and local laws. You must remeber that once they find out in court that you are a traind fighter you will be held to a higher standard of judgement and control. If you continue to kick the guy untill hes out and need to be hospitallized you may be charged with assult even if he started it.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Sensei S. Hilaire So if everyone is talking about throwing your opponent down, why do so many people spend 90% of their training time doing ground work. Wouldn’t you want a 50/50 split in your training? You will do in the street what you do in class.[/quote 

Maybe groundwork isn’t as easy to learn. Just about everyone knows how to throw a punch and even though there is a proper mechanic to it, anyone with any level of coordination could figure out how to throw a proper punch on their own. However, the ground game is a lot like chess and you not only have to know proper locks, positions and transitions, but how to set up those locks, transitions and positions. If you can’t set up a kick in a fight, you’re simply not imaginative enough, but if you can’t set up a kimura in a fight you need more training.

Stand up does not require as much work as groundwork, so people should focus on training it more even if they will use it less often.

While it may be true that a constant repetition of a motion or a pattern of stimulus-response will cause certain motions or responses to become instinctual, just because you train something all the time does not mean that is how you will fight. Mike Tyson trains punching, but if you attacked him on the street, I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that he’d throw a headbutt or a kick despite his lack of training in those techniques.

Your training shapes your instincts, but cannot overwrite them. Your training alters your responses but does not dictate them.
You are the fighter and you choose how to fight. Ideally, it should mesh with how one trains, but nothing is ever ideal.>

Post: Sensei S. Hilaire:

Standup that involves throwing takes just as much work as ground work. Very few of the modern jiu-jitsu practitioners are good at throwing. Takedowns – yes – there is alot of practicing of takedowns – but not alot of throwing – why? – Because its difficult to learn and takes alot of time to practice and you only get 2 points for a throw in all the modern competitions whereas you get three points for a front or back mount. What we are telling people is that throws are not as important as positioning on the ground – which is crap. Just be down there on the ground getting your face kicked in by steel toed boots of the buddies of the guy you are “rolling” with – and you will understand. For self defense, you need to be good at throwing – you need to put someone on the ground not just so you can take mount and pound the guy – but so that you can land the guy on his head or neck or even back and end the fight there!>

Post: Hengest:

Hilaire-sensei, you are a breath of fresh air sir. A teacher of a grappling-based style/s who doesn’t talk absolute gobshite about the realities of self defence.

If I had a quid for the number of times I’ve seen a situation where somebody goes to the ground and ends up being the main course at a boot party, I’d be a millionaire. (Well, maybe I’d at least have enough for a decent night out!)>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Sensei S. Hilaire Standup that involves throwing takes just as much work as ground work. Very few of the modern jiu-jitsu practitioners are good at throwing. Takedowns – yes – there is alot of practicing of takedowns – but not alot of throwing – why? – Because its difficult to learn and takes alot of time to practice and you only get 2 points for a throw in all the modern competitions whereas you get three points for a front or back mount. What we are telling people is that throws are not as important as positioning on the ground – which is crap. Just be down there on the ground getting your face kicked in by steel toed boots of the buddies of the guy you are “rolling” with – and you will understand. For self defense, you need to be good at throwing – you need to put someone on the ground not just so you can take mount and pound the guy – but so that you can land the guy on his head or neck or even back and end the fight there![/quote 

Maybe that’s a problem with jiu jutsu exponents.
Takedowns are incredibly easy to do, all you have to do is grab some body part, find some form of leverage and push/pull in some direction. Throws, yes, do take more skill to execute.
However, compare the complicated body mechanics of getting a simple armbar from the mount to a suplex. Assuming you keep your knees down in the mount position, you have to raise one leg, pull the arm up, pivot around it and with great accuracy, place the elbow (with the wrist turned so the pinky is touching your chest) over your crotch while crossing your ankles so they can’t brush your legs over their head and then arching your back to apply pressure to the joint. The suplex is a simple formula. You get some form of lock be it rear waist, high crotch, body lock, whatever and then you pop your hips while falling backwards and raising your arms. But you mentioned jiujutsu, so let’s introduce the mechanics behind a simple hiptoss. You have to get a certain grip, typically on the lapel of the gi and the belt at the lower back, then you have to drop your elevation while pivoting around your lower half to place your hips underneath theirs, then you have to stand up with your lower half while twisting downwards with your upper half.

Throwing is NOT as complicated as groundwork, and certain styles of throwing (namely Western styles) are decidedly simple. While any sort of grappling runs risks in real fights (it ties you up and gives room for others to interfere), executing a standing throw that can pack a wallop is a good way to take an individual out. Jiu jutsu styled throws, from experience, don’t really pack as much punch as freestyle throws and as demonstrated above are much more complicated to execute. So if you want to talk real self defense, we should leave the jiu jutsu world out of it.>

Post: Sensei S. Hilaire:

I understand your point, unfortunately it is just not the reality I have witnessed or participated in over the last 25 years. Inside the training hall, on mats, in he ring has never been like on the street, in a room, at the bar, or on the battlefield. Perhaps what you have witnessed is different reality than what I have.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Sensei S. Hilaire I understand your point, unfortunately it is just not the reality I have witnessed or participated in over the last 25 years. Inside the training hall, on mats, in he ring has never been like on the street, in a room, at the bar, or on the battlefield. Perhaps what you have witnessed is different reality than what I have.[/quote 

Undoubtedly. I’ve never seen a fight end without a weapon drawn, and the most effective tactic to win a fight, in my experience, is to pull a firearm early and often, making takedowns, striking, locks and throws completely pointless.

But hey, it’s nice that you have a hobby.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=Tease T Tickle Undoubtedly. I’ve never seen a fight end without a weapon drawn, and the most effective tactic to win a fight, in my experience, is to pull a firearm early and often, making takedowns, striking, locks and throws completely pointless.[/quote 

Exactly why I’m such an advocate (to the point of tedium) of pre-emptive striking.>

Post: Sensei S. Hilaire:

[quote=Tease T Tickle [quote=Sensei S. Hilaire I understand your point, unfortunately it is just not the reality I have witnessed or participated in over the last 25 years. Inside the training hall, on mats, in he ring has never been like on the street, in a room, at the bar, or on the battlefield. Perhaps what you have witnessed is different reality than what I have.[/quote 

Undoubtedly. I’ve never seen a fight end without a weapon drawn, and the most effective tactic to win a fight, in my experience, is to pull a firearm early and often, making takedowns, striking, locks and throws completely pointless.

But hey, it’s nice that you have a hobby.[/quote 

You have never seen a fight end without a weapon drawn???? Where do you live? Iraq? Somalia? And if a weapon is drawn – you most definately do not want to be on the ground with someone. Forgive my disbelief, but I think there may be a little exaggeration in your response.>

Post: setsu nin to:

I agree that any traning, sparring, ring fight… cant be same or replace street, bar, batlefiled…
In my opinion for “real” fight/combat you need to be mental strong, we say that you have to fight with heart. I saw sore realy good sport fighters that couldnt do nothing in real fight and that loose from guys that never trained any martial art but have lot of street fight experience. In moust “realistic” tranings people work just on physical aspect of fight, not on mental one, and in my opinion mental aspect of fight is more important than physical one, becouse if you faild on mental aspect you lose, but with bad techniques and good mental aspect you still have chance to win.

About weapons in fight… In my opinion its moust important that you know what to do and what are you ready to do when you take some weapon in your hands. If you dont know that its better that you dont pull out weapon.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Sensei S. Hilaire [quote=Tease T Tickle [quote=Sensei S. Hilaire I understand your point, unfortunately it is just not the reality I have witnessed or participated in over the last 25 years. Inside the training hall, on mats, in he ring has never been like on the street, in a room, at the bar, or on the battlefield. Perhaps what you have witnessed is different reality than what I have.[/quote 

Undoubtedly. I’ve never seen a fight end without a weapon drawn, and the most effective tactic to win a fight, in my experience, is to pull a firearm early and often, making takedowns, striking, locks and throws completely pointless.

But hey, it’s nice that you have a hobby.[/quote 

You have never seen a fight end without a weapon drawn???? Where do you live? Iraq? Somalia? [/quote 
Worse. Detroit. :D

Quote:
And if a weapon is drawn – you most definately do not want to be on the ground with someone.

Show me where I said otherwise. Opariser started this thread about using takedowns on the street. I replied with a throw. You remain standing, they land on their head, you win. I would not bother with such a tactic, but it’s an answer to a question that isn’t as snotty as, “You don’t want to do that, you’ll get killed.” And then you went off on some rant about how people train groundwork too heavily, which doesn’t necessarily fit the topic. I replied by saying that groundwork is much more complicated than standup, so it needs more work and then you said something about how stupid it is to do groundwork on the street (a sentiment I have been yelling on this very forum for YEARS) and how jiujutsu exponents suck nuts when it comes to executing decent throws. So, I reply by demonstrating the complexity of submission locks and jiujutsu throws versus a simple wrestling throw and you then you try to make a backhanded remark at me about some sort of experience, like I’m impressed by two and a half decades of watching people get stomped on.

If you didn’t learn something from the first time you saw somebody get stomped to death you shouldn’t be in this business. It doesn’t take years of experience to learn the truth of human fragility. It only takes one bad day where I’m from. Now maybe you don’t believe me when I say I see people pull heaters whenever a situation gets rough. I don’t care if you don’t believe it. The truth is that every time some dojo-rat steps on to the street, they’re thinking things wrong. You think that there are certain situations and certain responses. It’s worse than you think.

I’ve seen it all on this forum, people saying you should comply with armed thieves because your wallet isn’t worth your life. Tough fact of life: They’ll kill you anyway once you hand over your goods. People saying that if you get confronted, you should run away. Tough fact of life: People are faster than you, people know the area better than you, people that really want to hurt you will find out where you live and catch you while you sleep.

I’ve read countless rants and treatises by so-called experts, just like you, with decades of experience as security guards, bouncers, police officers, marines or whatever else. They all miss the point because regardless of your experiences, you’re an outsider. You haven’t sat in people’s basements when they plan out a heist. You haven’t been the passenger in the car when a hit has been called in. You’ve been told and trained that if such and such a situation goes down, you should act in such and such a way. Little do you know that somebody’s tried it before and we’re prepared for it. That dark figure comes up behind you at the ATM, he calls for your money, you toss cash on the ground and run. Little did you know, he had a friend in that direction and now you’re stuck. He didn’t just want your cash, he wanted your wedding ring, your watch, your credit card, your cell phone and your car keys. So, here you are, the place your sensei or favorite web forum never told you how to deal with and you get the voice of Geoff Thompson in the back of your head…
“it’s better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.”
Which means that it’s too late, and somebody’s going to have to break the bad news to your wife.

Excuse me while I find something more productive with my time, like honing my escrima stick skills or wailing on a heavy bag to make sure I can fight for hours on end. :roll:

Opariser: The most effective takedown for the street is a twelve gauge to the chest. Don’t let anyone else try to convince you otherwise.>

Post: Sensei S. Hilaire:

Interesting.>

Post: Hengest:

Quote:
I’ve read countless rants and treatises by so-called experts, just like you, with decades of experience as security guards, bouncers, police officers, marines or whatever else. They all miss the point because regardless of your experiences, you’re an outsider.

An excellent point mate. I’ve been hoping for years that somebody like Roy Shaw would do a “survival” book, somebody that’s a great fighter that has been on the other side of the fence. I heard he’s been a guest speaker at a couple of Jamie O’Keefe’s seminars, but, sadly, I doubt he’d branch out on his own…

Anyway Des, as usual, you give us all food for thought and it brings me to a question, a question that’s been troubling me for some years. Based on what you’ve said, would you go so far as to say that all MA training (be it TMA, MMA or whatever) is a waste of time in a real situation?>

Post: opariser1001:

[quote=Hengest 

Anyway Des, as usual, you give us all food for thought and it brings me to a question, a question that’s been troubling me for some years. Based on what you’ve said, would you go so far as to say that all MA training (be it TMA, MMA or whatever) is a waste of time in a real situation?[/quote 

that was the impression i got from that post. and it’s true to a certain extent…but i think a lot of people train simply so that they can have a slightly higher percentage of getting out of the situation alive than the average person…you never know, practicing knife defense thousands of times over may actually have given you that extra split-second of reaction time which enabled you to get out alive.

but not me…i just train cuz i love to fight and compete….street self-defense is never really my concern>

Post: zefff:

I think street self defence is more about common sense than any technique.>

Post: principle:

It has been my experience that a throw is easier when you pass or duck a committed puch to throw. Usually, when I have done so, I may have passed up a sweep or strike to expedite the process of getting to a throw position.

Throwing seems more difficult when you have a clinch/grab situation because the person can feel you moving during contact.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Hengest An excellent point mate. I’ve been hoping for years that somebody like Roy Shaw would do a “survival” book, somebody that’s a great fighter that has been on the other side of the fence. I heard he’s been a guest speaker at a couple of Jamie O’Keefe’s seminars, but, sadly, I doubt he’d branch out on his own…[/quote 
With very few exceptions, it’s unlikely to happen. To have a criminal tell you how he does his thing would be like a magician telling you how to saw somebody in half and put them back together. Or like a made man taking the stand to testify against the family. It’s kind of a toss up. A thug isn’t as likely to get whacked for welching, but at the same time, talking about how it’s done limits the ability of any thug to make money. I don’t know Roy Shaw’s personal story, so I can’t comment on him, but I don’t know anyone that would give up schemes to the public.

Quote:
Anyway Des, as usual, you give us all food for thought and it brings me to a question, a question that’s been troubling me for some years. Based on what you’ve said, would you go so far as to say that all MA training (be it TMA, MMA or whatever) is a waste of time in a real situation?

That depends on your situation. You worked as a bouncer for a number of years back home in the UK, you should know better than I what a real situation is in that world. From my underinformed and possibly biased perspective, one would never have to worry about weapons worse than knives in the UK (or much of Europe) because of strict gun laws. So, yes, martial arts training is worth it because – to me, at least – the martial arts encompasses close quarters combat weapons like knives and bats. I’d still suggest getting a good health plan, though, because you’re bound to get cut at some point or other.

For most Americans, and this is the world I know, you will never have to use anything akin to combat skills. Never. Most of you live outside of major cities, where most conflicts are settled with – at the worst – shoving contests that amount to little more than shows of dominance. However, for the precious many of us that live down the street from drug dealers, crooked cops and thieves, you can get victimized without even knowing there was a conflict. If you have property, desperate persons who know a few scams or can get a gun will try to take it from you. If the wrong people know your name, you can get a midnight visit demanding a favor or demanding bloodshed. In this world, knowing the proper body mechanics for a left hook or juji gatame is pointless.

I studied martial arts because I refused to lose those shoving matches for dominance when my life was on the schoolyard. I keep my skills up to date because sometimes somebody asks me for a favor. Apparantly, I have a trustworthy face because people will tell me just about anything.>

Post: Sparky-bjj:

Throws aren’t so effective on the street either if you ask me. Most throws are hard to perform and it doesn’t make it easier when you have to throw someone whose very wild and agressive. If you do succeed at throwing then make sure that you throw them pretty damn hard and head first. Because if your opponent doesn’t land head first and very hard on the ground, he’ll propably just stand up again while being even more agressive. I’m a bjj practitioner but when I get in a real street fight I will always try to end the fight standing first. I will only take the fight to the ground if my opponent is clearly much stronger than me and perhaps better trained at stand up fighting.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Kris, you raise some very interesting points. This is something I’ve been thinking about a lot recently as well. I live near several areas where things you mentioned are quite common, and in general my method for dealing with them is not to go into said areas. However, that isn’t always an option. You’re much more intimately acquainted with this type of conflict than I am; are you saying that the only sound response is to pull a gun?>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
Throws aren’t so effective on the street either if you ask me. Most throws are hard to perform and it doesn’t make it easier when you have to throw someone whose very wild and agressive

It really depends on your training. If the majority of what you train are throws then the above statement changes.

As far as wild aggressive attackers go, it again depends on how you train and at what level of intensity. Its much easier (IMHO) to “convince” an untrained, wild, aggressive idiot that has no regard for his own safety to off balance and let himself be thrown than it is a trained man in a gi on the mats that will not commit to an attack.

-bamboo>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Gong||Jau Kris, you raise some very interesting points. This is something I’ve been thinking about a lot recently as well. I live near several areas where things you mentioned are quite common, and in general my method for dealing with them is not to go into said areas. However, that isn’t always an option. You’re much more intimately acquainted with this type of conflict than I am; are you saying that the only sound response is to pull a gun?[/quote 

Well, it’s the most prudent response and the best chance that you will walk away unharmed. Whether or not it’s sound depends on how you view paranoia and instinctual aggression ;-)

Being safe in rough areas is really as simple as not making oneself a target. Don’t wear nice clothes unless it makes you look like a mobster. Don’t flash a bunch of money, jewelry, etc. Don’t look afraid or new to the area, carry yourself with confidence, walk with a purpose and if you get lost just keep walking like you aren’t until you get your bearings. If you can, travel with friends and have them act the same way you do. If possible, make those friends tall, bulky and scary-looking. :lol:

It’s a lot like going through the woods. If you run into a cougar, you stand on your toes and open your jacket to make yourself look as big as possible so the cougar doesn’t want to attack you. If you go to the hood and run into a gangster, you don’t need to pack heat but you have to make yourself look like it isn’t worth his while to mess with you. Whether that means making yourself out to be the biggest badass on the planet or a bum is up to you. Bangers don’t rob people poorer than themselves and they don’t waste time on targets they don’t know they can take. It’s just smart that way.>

Post: live4more:

Most I have ever learned in all my years of studying was undone by this thread right here.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=live4more Most I have ever learned in all my years of studying was undone by this thread right here.[/quote 

Since I can’t tell if you’re complaining or appreciative, I’m going to take it as a compliment. If you want to correct me, go ahead.>

Post: Hengest:

Quote:
That depends on your situation. You worked as a bouncer for a number of years back home in the UK, you should know better than I what a real situation is in that world. From my underinformed and possibly biased perspective, one would never have to worry about weapons worse than knives in the UK (or much of Europe) because of strict gun laws. So, yes, martial arts training is worth it because – to me, at least – the martial arts encompasses close quarters combat weapons like knives and bats. I’d still suggest getting a good health plan, though, because you’re bound to get cut at some point or other.

Thanks for your answer Des. Sorry it’s taken a while to respond.

I tend to agree with you on the differences re Europe and the US. I think it’s gradually changing, in the UK at least, with gun crime becoming more common in inner city areas, but there still seems to be a massive divide. That said, looking back on my experiences, I’m still not entirely convinced that my training was of much use. The only thing I can really remember coming into play was the mechanics (rather than the techniques) of wing chun, e.g. knowing how to throw a decent punch close in, basic trapping to set-up for a pre-emptive strike. Of the other stuff I’d done, I don’t remember using any of it: TKD, absolutely none; Hakko Ryu helped a bit with understanding come-alongs, but I rarely used those; taiji, nothing; sulkido, nothing; and so on and so forth. This is what makes me wonder whether any training, TMA or MMA, is really worth the toil and trouble. It seems to me that if you have a small arsenal of four to six techniques that you know inside out, that’s the most you’re ever going to need.

Quote:
Most I have ever learned in all my years of studying was undone by this thread right here.

Just be thankful you didn’t find out the hard way. :wink:>

Post: zefff:

“It seems to me that if you have a small arsenal of four to six techniques that you know inside out, that’s the most you’re ever going to need.”

Hengest has effectively taken down the correct.

You can guarantee that any experienced thug you face will have a small and very efficient arsenal of well honed technique.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

http://uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/greek_bouncer.htm

The second part relates much more directly to this discussion, under the heading “John the Greek”, but the whole thing is fairly interesting.

Also, as always, thanks for the advice Kris.>

Post: Hengest:

Great article GJ. I can read this kind of stuff all day. Real fighters!>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=zefff “It seems to me that if you have a small arsenal of four to six techniques that you know inside out, that’s the most you’re ever going to need.”

Hengest has effectively taken down the correct.[/quote 

I know it isn’t entirely relevant, but I recall reading an interview with Joe Lewis about Karate tournaments back in the ’70’s. He said something along the lines of he won using only what JKD people would call the lead hand strike and the side kick.

If it works on trained sport fighters, it has to work everywhere right? ;-)

At this point, the question becomes what techniques should a person adopt. I’m voting for the headbutt, the left hook and the overhand right, but that’s me.>

Post: zefff:

If the question is still pertaining to most effective takedown, then I would go with lead hook, rear cross and rear hook.>

Post: :

I’m trying to stay away from this thread; but I can’t help myself.

I don’t remember who stated it, but someone said something along the lines of that takedowns are easier to learn (true) and easier to execute on the street because you just grab onto something and take them down. This is great for someone who is a bigger person. And I agree with this statement when it comes to bigger people.

But; what about smaller individuals? Shorter, lighter? And they are faced with a big dude… what takedown works for them? Since they might be shorter; a good combat throw might work better. Yes; it requires some training, but this is martial arts discussion not who can beat who up discussion.

The small point I want to make is that the takedown that works on the street is the takedown that works for you. I think / know Sensei Hilaire was explaining that it’s stupid to limit your aresnal when it comes to your life. Someone also said have 6-8 techniques that you can readily call upon…SO TRUE! But the other stuff you train for are the What ifs? What happens if the guy counters? What happens if he can fight too? That’s when the What Ifs and extra training comes in.

Yes, Kris weapons are the ultimate winner and if you’re life is in danger and you’ve got a weapon, you’re just stupid if you don’t use it. But… a suplex? It may look easy on WWF or wherever someone may watch it; but a person untrained in suplexes using a suplex…HA! That would be some funny shit. They’d pancake themselves! It is quite a difficult throw!

Again; the best takedown is what works for you. Kris’s best takedown may very well be a suplex and I would love to see it. I’ve got a short stocky guy that I train with who throws people around like rag dolls because throws really work for him. He’s an ex-wrestler too and has great wrestling ability; but he can’t get get me down unless he throws me.

You’ve heard me say it a million times; don’t just talk about training and what to do; go learn something usefull and test it either in the dojo, with friends, etc (not on the street). You’re never going to know your best takedown for the street until you learn which takedown really works for you.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Fightauthority.com I’m trying to stay away from this thread; but I can’t help myself. [/quote 
Just like coca cola, eventually everyone gets Kris inside.

Quote:
But; what about smaller individuals? Shorter, lighter? And they are faced with a big dude… what takedown works for them? Since they might be shorter; a good combat throw might work better. Yes; it requires some training, but this is martial arts discussion not who can beat who up discussion.

When the term takedown gets bandied about, Most people tend to think along the lines of “double leg” rather than “O Soto Geri.” A standing sweep, while not exactly my favorite thing to do, is just as simple as the mainstay of sport grappling, the double leg. Furthermore, since the action of the sweep is based on destroying balance rather than lifting a person up, it can be done by just about anyone. Also, about the idea that small people can’t use double legs, I hate to invoke the BJJ lore, but aren’t all of the Gracie techniques supposedly designed by a crippled Helio to use on well-developed athletes? I don’t know that the double leg is at the core of BJJ, but I’m sure he had a way to take people to the ground other than pulling guard and I don’t see any BJJ user doing complicated hip tosses or shoulder throws.

Quote:
The small point I want to make is that the takedown that works on the street is the takedown that works for you.

The answer we give everyone when they ask what’s the best whatever. If somebody asks what’s the best art to study, we say the art that works for them. If they ask what’s the best punch, we say the punch that works for them. While on one level it is true, on another level we’re just dodging the question. Somewhere, somebody has to put the foot down and say, “In all of the years I’ve been doing this, X has never done well for me,” or, “You know, every time I use my X, it works.” And THAT’S the type of answers we should be giving. Yes, everyone will have different X’s, that isn’t the point. When somebody asks a question, they want a finger pointing towards what they should be studying, not a beast of a technique that will never fail.

Quote:
I think / know Sensei Hilaire was explaining that it’s stupid to limit your aresnal when it comes to your life. Someone also said have 6-8 techniques that you can readily call upon…SO TRUE! But the other stuff you train for are the What ifs? What happens if the guy counters? What happens if he can fight too? That’s when the What Ifs and extra training comes in.

What if you wake up tomorrow coughing up blood and your doctor tells you that you somehow developed lung cancer? What if you walk from your office to your car to go home and get run over by another worker leaving a little too fast? If one contemplates even one what if, one must contemplate all what ifs and if all possible situations are given equal thought, no decision will ever be arrived at. Combat is about decisiveness, the ability to act with as little thought as possible so as to not be caught hesitating. I don’t care what you study or how long you studied it, if you stop to think about what may happen when a fight breaks out, the worst will happen because you stopped to think. So, why limit your arsenal? Why eliminate the what ifs? Because doing so saves your life.

Quote:
Yes, Kris weapons are the ultimate winner and if you’re life is in danger and you’ve got a weapon, you’re just stupid if you don’t use it. But… a suplex? It may look easy on WWF or wherever someone may watch it; but a person untrained in suplexes using a suplex…HA! That would be some funny shit. They’d pancake themselves! It is quite a difficult throw!

And I thought this board was for people that train. I’m not even going to address the idea of an untrained fighter because nothing they attempt will work as well as a technique practiced day in day out. But yes, a suplex. Simple to execute: you just get a grip, pop your hips and fall back. Devastating power: If you’ve ever landed on the back of your head from any type of throw, you know it isn’t fun. If you imagine doing that to somebody on a concrete sidewalk or asphalt parking lot, you can easily picture a fatality. This isn’t voodoo witch magic, it’s quite simple.

I’m a lot like your stocky friend, I like to throw. When I get ahold of somebody, I lift and slam. I hate going to the ground and laying with somebody and getting into that chess match, even in the gym I hate it. Doing so, I feel anyway, grants too much ability to your opponent. In that proximity, even if they’re on the bottom, they can still get a lock and beat you. However, if you toss somebody down and stay standing, even if you don’t allow the boot polishing, you’re in a better position than your opponent. They cannot do anything to you. It’s the way my mind works, to eliminate the ability of an enemy to do anything to you and fancy hip tosses and whatnot, even if you can get them to work well, do not eliminate resistance.>

Post: :

OK.>

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