Which school

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Which school
Original Poster: bamboo
Forum: Grappling & Jiu-Jitsu
Posted On: 15-06-2007, 17:33

Orginal Post: bamboo: [FONT=book antiqua,palatino While jogging this evevning I had this question running through my head: [/FONT 
[FONT=book antiqua,palatino Do I join a mcdojo with a decent subgrappling program or pay through the nose to a hardcore BJJ gym?[/FONT 
The mcdojo is close to the house, has alot of people and the schedule is perfect for me, infact its as if I pencilled in the class times myself. They have blue and purple bjj teachers, a nidan judoka and a huge student base. The price is average and the location and gas consumption are perfect.
The hardcore place has a Brown at least one purple and is affiliated under a gracie. The price is insane and its on the other side of town. They also have muay thai and I believe a MMA team.
I know it seems obvious to go for number two but what I’m really looking for is something to supplement what I’m already doing. I want to learn and I want to roll with good people and theres no gauruntee I won’t get that at the mcdojo but then I’m torn as I don’t want to support a mcdojo, but at the same time I don’t think I should be feeding the insane price machine that are gracie schools. That leaves just as bad a taste in my mouth as attending a mcdojo.
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Post: Hengest:

To be honest, I’d say go with the McDojo if it’s subgrappling program is half decent. In my view, the only real use for high-level BJJ technique is BJJ competition and I’m guessing a man in your position Bambi is probably only looking to develop a good grounding (if you’ll pardon the pun) in subgrappling. If I’m correct, I reckon the McDojo can probably provide what you want.>

Post: The BadBoy:

I wouldn’t do either. Start your own grappling group. You can concentrate on the training you require and work on what you feel you need to work on. Do you know any decent grapplers that will come and train with you. A good grounding of Greco or freestyle wrestling is just as good as a good grounding in BJJ. Go to open mats around your area once in a while and see how your progression ins going.

If not then the McDojo is probably your best bet. If the Gracie school is charging such outrages prices (is it using contracts asewell?) then what is to differentiate it from a McDojo, especially if the McDojo has a decent program. You can learn a hell of a lot from a Purple belt. I mean a hell of a lot. Just look at the kind of advice Bushi has been given on his thread. The two guys who coach for SBG Scotland are both purples and they have some of the best game and coaching ability in the country and that includes all the back and brown belts that we have down in England.>

Post: zefff:

Conveyance of nuances in technique and specific coaching ability is not ranked but is very valuable so I’d look for that myself before being persuaded by the actual rank of a teacher because although he may have technique, can he pass it on and is he even really 100% willing?

An open mat can be good but I always end up straight sparring more than technique sharing and drilling so it might not always be the best place to recieve instruction but it is good for exposure to new energies.>

Post: The BadBoy:

I use open mats to guage the level of my ground game as compared to the guys from other schools. if I get caught by a guy with something I like or vice versa then we spend a few minutes showing the otehr guy the move and how you set it up. Other than that, not a lto of instruction goes on at Open Mats but you get a good comparison for how your ability compares with guys from other clubs.>

Post: dscott:

I would check out the McDojo if you don’t have to sign a contract. You’re not looking for “top notch” teaching. As long as you go in with an open mind and your instructors are knowledgable, give it a shot. If not, try the other one.>

Post: Stg:

how exactly is it a mcdojo if it has pruples belts and blue belts? what makes it a mcdojo in your opinion?>

Post: bamboo:

STG- A mcdojo to me is a school that makes you in most cases sign contracts, where multiple gis for different classes, charges for silly stripes on belts and has crap loads of in house tests and lots of useless , time filling techiques. 50 students to a teacher, that sort of thing…

The subgrappling class seems like the lotus in the swamp if i don’t need a contract. I refuse to sign a contract.

-bamboo>

Post: zefff:

Its the stripes on the belts that kill it for me. Belts alone and paying for gradings is bad enough but stripes take the piss. In a few years maybe we will have stars too and maybe a nice frilly rossette! :rolleyes:>

Post: Stg:

ah. i thought you were calling it a mcdojo cuz it had pruples belts instead of brown/black belts lol:lol:>

Post: Bushi:

I would check out both. I pay high dollar for good instruction and it has made all the difference. I also charge a decent price for my instruction. BJJ is an expensive sport. Good Cardiologist charge high money, good lawyers charge high money, good scientists are paid high money, why should BJJ be any different?

In the end, you have to be happy.>

Post: bamboo:

Well,

The mcdojo will not even let me see the school without a $20 charge.. so forget that.

The gracie school is good but i can’t put in 3-4 nights a week to make it worth it. Time is of the essence right now.

In regards to the prices and cardiologists i just say thats silly. I’ve never seen a bjj man save a life or do open heart surgery. I too went to school for along time to do what I do but don’t get lawyer money because I’m not a lawyer.

In the end- bjj is a past time to the vast majority and I simply don’t buy that the skills needed to break a mans arm are the same to fix them. If they were, then cardiologists and lawyers would sell “do it yourself dvds” and books just like the gracies.

Heck, your a cop bushi, you carry a fire arm and put your life on the line every day but do you make the same money as a lawyer? No. You should before a sports teacher does, and lets face it, bjj and all the MAs that we do in the west are for sports.

-bamboo>

Post: Triple T:

If I can hijack a slight bit, I’d like to ask for my own benefit:
Are there any major differences between the Gracie-line BJJ gyms and the Machado-line BJJ gyms? I have both in my area, one extremely more accessible, but if I’d prefer one system over the other, a longer drive would be worth it.>

Post: bamboo:

Great question TTT!

I’ve always wondered that.>

Post: Hengest:

As far as I’m aware, a few years ago, the difference between the two was pretty big. Gracie BJJ was very much old-school techniques, not wavering from the party line, which is kind of ironic seeing as they were trying to paint themselves as the new face of combatives after the first few UFCs. The “Gracie Gift” was the usual method of guard escape taught, long after everyone had worked out that it was just asking for a triangle choke. Meanwhile, Machado BJJ was more open minded, adopting techniques from other grappling methods, etc. They were regularly teaching and using leg locks a long time before the Gracies.

However, these days, I don’t think the difference is anywhere near as noticeable. Gracie BJJ has had to change over the last decade while Machado BJJ has carried on doing what it’s always done. To be honest, I don’t think any differences there are would be worth travelling those extra miles for.>

Post: Triple T:

Awesome, thanks, H. Sorry, Bamboo, I’ll let this return to it’s previously scheduled discussion. :-)>

Post: bamboo:

Meh, I got my answers in the form of a $20 bill to see a school.

THis is more informative and fun. (-;>

Post: Bushi:

I was not trying to draw a direct comparison to a Cardiologist, but trying to say that a Cardiologist gets paid more than a Family Doctor. Sometimes you get what you pay for, sometimes you have to overpay, but sometimes you do get what you pay for.

As far as a Cop getting paid more than a Sports teacher, well that depends. Who is paying the bill. Since the Sports teacher is in the Market and the Cop is not then the market will dictate the Sports teachers pay. The Government determines the Cops pay. If the Government wanted to raise the Cops pay to that of a Cardiologist then I would say we would be in serious trouble in the TAX department. Could you imagine the taxes we would have to pay to give Cops that kind of pay raise. Apples and Oranges I’m afraid.

This may be a difference in each of our worldviews. Your government is Socialist, yes?>

Post: bamboo:

LOL, you’ve said that a few times( canada being socialist ), and no, we elect or gov’t just like you.

“Canada is a [URL=”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_monarchy” constitutional monarchy[/URL  with [URL=”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II_of_the_United_Kingdom” Elizabeth II[/URL , [URL=”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_of_the_Canadian_Sovereign” Queen of Canada[/URL , as head of state, and a [URL=”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_democracy” parliamentary democracy[/URL  with a [URL=”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation” federal system[/URL  of [URL=”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliament” parliamentary government[/URL  and strong democratic traditions.” This from wikipedia because people tend to believe things if they are in print.

The ex USSR was socialist, not us. Don’t believe the US is the only country with “true” freedom propoganda, its great to sell wars and boost business but is completely false.

-bamboo

edited for clarity>

Post: Bushi:

Socialism is an economic system. I think the USSR was Communists and Socialists. You can have a Democratic Socialism. Communism was their political system and Socialist was their economic system. I know Canada is closer to socialism than the US is, but that wasn’t meant to be an insult just maybe an explanation to the misunderstanding. Eitherway, I wish to retract it. It wasn’t meant to be a slight.

So do you better understand my point concerning pay? I hope you find a school you can sink your teeth into.>

Post: bamboo:

I believe I do.:smile:>

Post: zefff:

Believe it or not we (UK) elected a Socialist government 10 years ago but ended up with Tony Blair a.k.a. the US Republicans arse rag who is more conservative than the COnservatives we have here!>

Post: Triple T:

Millwaukee (sp?) elected two Socialist mayors, according to Alice Cooper in Wayne’s World. (Does this guy know how to party, or what?!)

At any rate, politics and economics have rarely been separate. If they were, it never would have made sense to stamp coins with the head of the Roman emperor, and paper money wouldn’t exist at all. I can only think of a few, small, short-lived states that flourished on true communal possession or a pure barter system where the governing body had no say in the exchange of goods or services. Most of these were also decidedly pacifist and isolationist, so they would either get conquered by neighboring states, an oppressive Church or simply fade away due to a lack of breeding stock.

I don’t know how people abroad define Conservatism, but Dubya is actually far from it. He almost vetoed a bill once. He spent more money than a Navy man in a whore house. His most hard-fought policies centered around the imposition of the Federal government over State governments and individual rights. He and other so-called Neo-Conservatives are so ass backwards with the religious morals garbage it makes me weep for a contemporary American politician who actually knows what realpolitik means. For fuck’s sake, instead of wasting time and money on the gay marriage ban we might have done something like, I don’t know, bolstered airlines to invest in and improve the American infrastructure, thus increasing economic activity by allowing a greater freight shipping volume at a cheaper price. Fuck Jesus, we need the Monopoly Man.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=zefff;49481 Believe it or not we (UK) elected a Socialist government 10 years ago but ended up with Tony Blair a.k.a. the US Republicans arse rag who is more conservative than the COnservatives we have here![/quote 

I don’t think that’s really true. In the run-up to the election, Blair was very clear on the vision he had for New Labour. Anybody who voted for Labour at that time thinking they were electing a socialist government can’t have paid much attention to the party’s pre-election rhetoric.>

Post: zefff:

Well true, but Labour is supposed to be a socialist party no?>

Post: bamboo:

Socially conscience parties working to improve benefits and social programmes are quite different from a socialist governement. I don’t really know of the British labour party but in canada the NDP is considered socialist but all they want is more spending, better health care and more social programmes.

Real socialism is a tad different.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=zefff;49499 Well true, but Labour is supposed to be a socialist party no?[/quote 

It was, yes. But, as you say yourself, New Labour probably has more in common with the Tories than the original Labour Party. Anybody that votes for a party based on what they’re supposed to be would have to be pretty naive, no?>

Post: zefff:

Dont look at me! I didnt vote for them! :lol:>

Post: Hengest:

Sorry mate, I wasn’t pointing the finger at you. :lol:

And I apologise for jumping on your previous statement. I have recently developed a tendency to seize on anything I hear that even remotely smacks of all the anti-Blair bluster thats so fashionable in the press of late. :-?>

Post: zefff:

What? Sorry but I wont deny I cant stand Blair and his cabinet. Regardless of the obvious its his blind arrogance and the amount of scandal throughout the cabinet over the years that takes the piss and how many have actually held their hand up?>

Post: Triple T:

See, that’s the whole thing, Zefff. We get pissed at politicians because they what? Do unpopular things? Spend money like it grows on vines in the backyard garden? Suspend the civil liberties of the people whom they investigate for possible wrong-doings? At this point in time, I would like to ask three questions, or rather I’d like everyone to ask themselves these three questions:
1) Do you really think that our current politicians are any way, shape or form different from politicians across time?
2) Do you really think contemporary popularity of these politicians would be so low if there weren’t an overabundance of and easy access to media written predominantly by those educated with a “critical” leaning?
3) Has anything that these politicians put into practice ACTUALLY changed your life?>

Post: zefff:

1) No I dont, but I dont care about politicians from other eras.

2) No but they have benefited from the impact of media as well as manipulated it more than they have suffered under it.

3) Yes! This country is in tatters!>

Post: Triple T:

The country’s….in tatters? Uh huh.

So, strictly because of Tony Blair the British Pound ISN’T the single most valuable currency in the world right now? The UK education system ISN’T among the best in the world? Public transportation and infrastructure are not being maintained? By what rationale can you say the country is in tatters?

Furthermore, I didn’t ask about the country. I asked about you. One of the really wonderful things about real life rather than the ideals people dream up when they discuss and ponder politics, is that life goes on regardless of the regime. Even under a dictatorship, chances are likely your interaction with the government will be minimal. Therefore you are given much more freedom than you think you are, even when others tell you you’re losing your freedoms.>

Post: zefff:

Fuckoff! Dont to measure me against your own levels and the norms of your own culture. I dont give a fuck about the pound (untilit gets too ridiculous), I do care about public transport though even though I never use it. But this country is in tatters because the basic levels of general tolerance,m awareness and decency are being erroded. Regardless of how much wealth a person has or what number bus they catch, every motherfucker is getting more rude and bare-faced round here.

All that matters to me is how many bastards obstruct me each month. The government is there to lessen this obsruction IMO.>

Post: Hengest:

Ah zefff, what did ya go and have to say all that for? Now you’re gonna get me started.

TTT has made a lot of the points I was going to, but I’ll just add my two penneth. You know, all I hear from my fellow Brits is how the Blair years have been a disaster, how he’s the worst prime minister we’ve ever had, how the country’s in ruins, blah blah blah. Now, I’ll be the first to admit that Blair’s not perfect, but people have some really short fucking memories. The Major years were so ridicuously bad that they’re almost laughable now.

If you actually look at what the Blair government has done for the country, there’s more good than bad:

1. the incredible improvement in the economy
2. the dramatic increase in household disposable income
3. the large decrease in child poverty
4. the considerable reductions in NHS waiting lists
5. the introduction of the minimum wage
6. the Northern Ireland peace process
7. putting interest rate control in the hands of the Bank of England, removing it as a political tool

And that’s by no means it. But all I hear is Brits engaging in their favourite pastime: fucking whinging. Granted, a lot of his achievements have been overshadowed by his crowning screw-up, Iraq, but, even there, I think a lot of the allegations against him are unfounded, eg, the idea that he consciously lied to the British public about WMD. The view that he put forward on the topic was the view of every major intelligence agency in the world at that time. Is Blair supposed to know more than the CIA, MI6 and Mossad put together? Of course, the question remains, even then, should we have gone to war, but I don’t think it was anywhere near the black-and-white situation people like to see it as.

Immigration is another favourite of the Blair haters. Immigrants are flooding into our ports. They’re causing a rise in crime. They’re a drain on the welfare system. They’re diluting our culture. That last one always makes me laugh. The idea that the average Brit has any understanding of their own culture is ridiculous enough, but how they’re managing to dilute our culture when the other common complaint against them is that they keep to themselves, live in their own communities and fail to integrate, I do not know.

There are currently more Brits living abroad than there are immigrants in the UK, and every major think tank on the subject states that if the UK’s economy is to continue growing as it has been, we actually need to increase immigration, not stem it. But, all that aside, let’s be honest, on the subject of immigration, we simply CANNOT criticise. When it comes to taking over other people’s countries and forcing other cultures round to our way of thinking, we wrote the fucking book!

And the old chestnut you bring up zefff. The country’s in tatters. Nobody has any respect anymore. The hoodies are running rampant. Quick, call the Daily Mail!! Man, please…

I’ll agree with you that traditional values are missing from our society, but, news flash, they’ve been on the decline for the last fifty years, maybe more. (I personally feel that those values have been on the decline ever since the introduction of Christianity to our shores, but that’s another subject.) Look around your streets. I was back in my hometown on New Year’s Eve and, I’ll be honest, the streets looked like a bad day in Basra. Machinegun-toting cops, ambulance crews, massive fist fights, bodies all over the place, either cos they’d had a kicking or cos they’d drunk themselves into that state, or both (and none of this was down to immigrants either). Yeah, I’ll admit, I felt like crying. But how the fuck is that Blair’s fault? The youngest person I saw that night was probably 17, 18. The majority were in their 20s, some older. Now, I’m sorry, but I fail to see how, in people of that age, the last ten years have caused a massive change in their social behaviour. The blame for their idiocy lies not in this government’s actions but, in the years long before that, in defective fucking parenting; defective fucking parenting, I might add, that began during a Tory government (although, to be honest, I doubt that has a great deal to do with it either). Tell me zefff, how is Blair responsible for 20 years of incompetance from knuckle-dragging parents that don’t deserve to breathe, let alone breed?

I agree, the country’s not perfect, but what country is? And of the problems we do have, many have their roots in a time many years before Blair became prime minister. It’s time Brits stopped looking for a scapegoat, be it Blair, immigrants, hoodies, or (in the case of the Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish) the English, and started standing up and taking responsibility for their own shit, cos at the end of the day, we’re the only ones to blame.>

Post: zefff:

Ahh bollox! :lol:>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=zefff;49531 Ahh bollox! :lol:[/quote 

:lol::lol::lol:>

Post: Triple T:

I had a quite long post that covered just about everything, but it got wiped when I realized I shouldn’t use the Quick Reply feature and the site got screwed.

Suffice it to say that, if one has an open-enough mind to think that Fox News might report something true while others ignore the same facts for purposes of political convenience (even if just once in history) then try to read this: [URL http://www.foxnews.com/projects/pdf/Iraq_WMD_Declassified.pdf[/URL 
which is the only source I’ve found in the past three years where anything close to proof was mentioned. Rhetoric notwithstanding, most people simply think, “It wasn’t all over the news, so they must not have found anything,” or perhaps, “All of my favorite politicians keep saying they aren’t there, so they must not be there.” I find it hard to disbelieve the reports given to the House Intelligence Committee, but this is filtered through Fox News, so you can take it with as much salt as you like.

However, Zefff, you made things personal. I didn’t judge you or your country by anything more personal than you seem to be judging my country, my countrymen and your own countrymen. The American culture may have an odd fixation on money but, let’s be honest here, more is and has been done in the name of fiscal empowerment than any other superlative drive we could mention. Our notions of justice, generosity and compassion almost always come with a concept of monetary exchange or the distribution of solid assets. This is as old as the Bible, where the farmers of Israel were encouraged to leave an amount of their crop in the field so that hungry vagabonds may have something to eat.

Granted we come from very similar places in that we speak the same language, have the same influences on our cultures, etc. I cannot deny that we have stark differences and that my particular views are disturbingly clouded by my life and what I see. I don’t think anyone can honestly claim otherwise. But still, I did not argue against you based on what Detroit is like. I could easily exclude Bush and Blair from negative judgment because at least they, unlike my mayor Kwame Kilpatrick, have not cut back on police and waste management operations so that they could fund vacations to Hawaii and buy a Lincoln Navigator for their wives. I could claim that the war in Iraq is meaningless in the face of the much greater impact of murder and rape right here in my backyard. I have made those claims in the past. But I didn’t here. And yet you still rail against me, personally, for how I addressed your claim that the UK is a shambles. We don’t live in Rwanda. We get to eat real food, grown by real people in real fields, rather than eating the dirt we walk on just to feel our bellies full. You have it better than me, I’m willing to wager, and I have better than most. I try to point out to an individual I have come to respect, an individual that has claimed before he seeks Truth and Righteousness in his own life, that he has an enviable position even to the priveleged and he tells me, literally, to fuck off.

No, Zefff. Fuck you. You lost a lot of respect here, not that you care, I’m sure. You sound like a whiny school child claiming that your country, the most powerful economical and diplomatic force our world has seen, is in horrible condition. You sound like maybe some bully took your school money and the teacher turned her back. I can’t believe I’m going to tell this to somebody a decade or so my senior, but you need to grow up.>

Post: zefff:

Honestly speaking, I really am sorry if I was offensive in my post. I was drunk that night and when I am drunk I tend to tell people to fuck off (in jest) quite a lot. I forgot to put smilies on my post which made it worse I can see. I wasnt meaning to be offensive but if I was I apologise.

Okay, now we were talking about the United Kingdom here so I dont see why you’ve moved onto WMD’s and where I judged your country??? I didnt judge your country but yes I do judge stuff all the time if I am honest. But I didnt say anything negative about the US IIRC.

As for “Truth and Righteousness”, TBH I think I am afraid of it , maybe. I dissapoint people all the time and it doesnt feel good but it happens. I hear what you are saying but its not the institution I care about, its the people and their powers that matter to me in this country.

Anyway, Ive quit the rum for now both you and my missus will be glad to hear.

Peace (lest I forget), thankyou.>

Post: bamboo:

Now, back to my actual thread before it was derailed :roll:…..

With alot of hard work I found a small school not far from my place that doesn’t do bjj but rather subgrappling , two forms of traditional jiujitsu and wrestling. No contracts and a free month long trial. They also participate in local grappling competitions.

They have a huge kids programme to pay the bills while the adult classes look pretty small and most of the adults are older (read 30-40 years old) so no crap young buck attitudes.

I’ll see what happens after my first month. (-;>

Post: dscott:

Good Luck!>

Post: bamboo:

Well that school was pretty much crap:(

Now its on to a BTT school and a local MMA club.

The search continues…
(cue music)>

Post: bamboo:

I found a school , I found a school! Wootah!

I’m joining the MMA club. I have no aspirations to ever be anything but a club fighter but heh, its all about the good times. Muay thai, and really fucking solid subgrappling and conditioning.

Can I get an Awww right here people?>

Post: dscott:

Awwwwww right!!!!!!!!!! Keep us posted.>

Post: zefff:

Great news! Hope it works out.>

Post: bamboo:

‘taint cheap but then, the cheap ones I found were too busy talking tough and punching the air…>

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