Are reality based systems really based in reality?

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Are reality based systems really based in reality?
Original Poster: Bushi
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 30-11-2004, 11:10

Orginal Post: Bushi: Discuss?

Post: Tease T Tickle:

It depends on which one we’re talking about.
Many, like the SCARS program, were designed with a semi-scientific basis. Although that may sound appealing, sciences is fairly well known for how awkward and detatched from reality its proponents are :wink: When you get to a certain level of scientific exploration, you get so abstract you leave the reality you’re trying to study, so I wouldn’t say these arts are based in reality.
But then arts like Defendo which are based on real world experience and common sense have their feet firmly on the ground.>

Post: setsu nin to:

In my opinion some are effective some are not, but unfortunatly 99% of them are not effective. Problem is becouse today everyone think how he/she can become founder of something new, expert in martial arts… Thats why I choose traditional styles.>

Post: MA dude:

Most are uneffective. The only reality self defense arts I have seen work effectively are the ones used by Russian troops. Most of the other stuff is pretty horrible. If you are looking for reality based defense I would suggest systema, combat sambo, ROSS, and some others you would have to travel to a different country to get.>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Out of curiosity, what does the SCARS system involve and which US units still use it? What do the other units train in?>

Post: Bushi:

SCARS=joke, and to my knowledge, there are no units that use that stuff. At one time the Special Warfare Dept. of th USN (SEALS) used it , but regretted it.

This from my SEAL buddies.>

Post: MA dude:

Isn’t Scars a combo of bjj and muay thai. Those arts do not seem to cover what soldiers need to know for the battlefield.>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

I think SCARS came about before the Gracies made inroads into the US military/law enforcement. The US armed forces BJJ programme is called SoldierGround, I think.

Thanks for the info, Bushi. What systems do the other units use? For instance, what does your average infantry rifleman learn these days as opposed to a Marine as opposed to a SEAL?>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

I heard the same about the SEALs and SCARS. The system tried something (IMO) similar to Bruce Lee’s method of studying “how the body defends itself” so they approach things quasi-scientifically. Which somehow leads to the program being dropped by professionals, courses going for thousands of dollars to suckers which are born every minute and Kris knowing about as much about the mechanics of the “art” as anyone else.>

Post: Bushi:

Most units use what could be simple called Combatives. They basically make up there own systems. Marine Corps has gone so far as name theirs MCMAP and give belts out. Which is moe of a morale thing.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn Out of curiosity, what does the SCARS system involve and which US units still use it?[/quote 

SCARS is simply basic level san soo (Jimmy Woo’s style that is, not sanda). As was said, only the SEALs used it, but even then it wasn’t used to train actual troops HTH. It was only used during selection training as a sort of aggression motivator and never as serious MA training.

But to the question, I would agree with most of what’s been said here. I think most “reality” systems make exactly the same mistake as the majority of TMA: they put emphasis on learning techniques and fail to prepare the student, ironically, for the actual reality of combat. Hardly any I’m aware of spend more than a little time addressing the crucial elements of fear and adrenaline control, pre-fight dialogue, pre-emptive striking, etc. As a result, of the modern systems, the only ones I give any credence to would be the “UK school” (e.g. Geoff Thompson, Jamie O”Keefe, Kevin O’Hagan, etc.) and Tony Blauer’s teachings. Most of the other stuff I’ve seen is as much use, if not less so, than the typical poorly instructed karate class.>

Post: Sensei S. Hilaire:

Systems are not reality. Systems are a way to pass on strategy, tactics, and techniques. These elements can help you when reality comes along, but they are not the reality of a fight. Only fighting will get you ready to fight. There is no other answer. You can be an expert at executing a specific (as an example) knife disarm technique. You can be fast and sharp. But until you try and succeed in executing that technique in a real fight with a real knife wielded by a real enemy trying to really kill you – then that technique is unproven for you in battle.

Remember – most modern soldiers do not engage in unarmed hand to hand combat. Police officers get a good amount because of having to arrest and restrain. Most unarmed civilians will not run into a combat situation in their lives. Their fighting experience will remain in the dojo. That is not a bad thing. We dont need people fighting all over the place to feed their ego or curiosity.

All training in a realistic (not reality based – all decent self defense arts are reality based as opposed to fantasy based) self defense art (focused on self defense – not belts or competition or sport or kata) will give you a better chance if you have to defend yourself. But there is no guarantee for the person who had no Experience.

Just my humble opinion.>

Post: Dark Soldier:

I have trained in a few hours of SCARS lessons with a guy who has attended the SCARS and TFT camps. I feel SCARS/TFT (very similar) has some good principles and good techniues taught but I am concerned how they don’t really address adrenaline control and pre-fight dialouge. They have what you call the offensive mindset but it will be good to know how this works in controlling adrenaline. My partner said it was never addressed in training. Although some guys he trained with stated that they used what they learnt against an intruder in his house and took the guy out but was through up soon after due to the what I think must have been the adnernaline dump. Whether that was from the fear of the intruder or not knowing whether he killed him. SCARS train you into fighting really close, belly to belly and penetrating deep and always striking targets around the body and never blocking. It does install a feeling of confidence and as you never do the same technique more than twice you won’t get frozen in what to do next, you automatically fight. I have found it more practical than other martial arts but I’m not sure to say that its the be all and end all that the marketing claims. :twisted:>

Post: dcohen:

[quote=Sensei S. Hilaire Only fighting will get you ready to fight. There is no other answer.
[/quote 

Though I agree with everything else in your post, this is not true. Fighting will get you fighting. It might get you cut, bashed on the ground, killed. It might get you into prison. It might get you rich. It might make you have bad dreams. But FIGHTING really only gets you…well, fighting. Everything else is up to what happens during this “fight.”

Getting ready to fight is a completely different topic, and we both know there’s more approaches than we can count. Some of the things taught to people will get them killed. Some will land them safely in prison or a mental health institution if they’re lucky. A few might get them their families killed and their houses burned to the ground. And then, there’s those elusive few ways of “preparation” that will help you on your journey through the fight (which IMHO is the focus of this board). So you won’t panic. So you won’t over react. So you won’t wake up sweating a few days, months, years later because you pulled your blade when there was another way out.

Hengest said it best, IMO. The actual importance of “movement” in most fights pales in comparison to control over your breathing, adrenaline dump, fine motor control. Over your peripheral vision. Over the mental map of the environment you’re in. Hell, over your mindset.

I assume everyone who’s been near some shit themselves has seen proof of this…where a strong, well-conditioned, agressive, usually effective attacker or defender is overwhelmed and incapacitated (or worse) by someone smaller, ‘weaker,’ less prepared. We go home after seeing this, maybe as a bystander, or a participant in a nearby mini-fight, whatever…we go home and wash up and lie down and think about why all the stuff we used to think mattered, simply doesn’t seem to matter so much anymore. And then we think about why that happens sometimes to well-conditioned, well-prepared fighters. Why?

Shit, I typed all of that and I really don’t have an answer. Is it fearlessness? Is it sheer fright? Is it an objective beyond the fight that makes the little “fight” seem like a tiny obstacle? The point is, whatever that variable may be, the PREPARATION for “fighting,” any kind, needs to be based in reality. Not in “street fighting reality,” or “battlefield reality,” but simply reality. The physics need to work. You can’t fool physics. Not with anger. Not with hate. Not with PCP. Not even with that mysterious variable that I can’t figure out. Physics work underwater. Physics work in space. Physics work when there’s a 9mm pointed at your left eye. Physics just work, plain and simple. The point of preparation is to make physics work for you.

Because whether you redirect the gun arm with a simple wedge, get behind the attacker, and break him while a shot goes off, or whether you stand there wondering why suddenly what you learned no longer applies to this “fight” while a .45 enters and exits your head, taking some of your brain with it, something involving physics will be happening. That’s the value of thinking about this stuff before the fight.

That’s what this whole post is trying to say, I suppose. There is more than fighting, to surviving a fight. There are plenty of ways to be ready. To not be surprised at how it really is. To have control over your reactions, your body; to keep your head cool when really unexpected things are happening all around you.

There is much more than that to it. But I think that in the end, it’s all pretty simple.

-Dave>

Post: Dark Soldier:

dcohen, that is well said mate. You want what you have learnt to protect you or your loved ones to the best of your capabilities and to be confident but wise enough to deal with potential threats in the correct manner that one should see appropriate.>

Post: dcohen:

Damn it, you just said what I wanted to say in two (2) sentences.

Go to hell! But thanks :lol:

-Dave>

Post: Sensei S. Hilaire:

dcohen – I definately agree with your view of the physics of an altercation. There is no magic to it, it is simply physics that make waza work. However, experience is very very important. I am not sure how to put this other than to say that there are people out there with alot of experience and very little technique that will destroy many people who have alot of technique and little experience. I advocate “fighting” in a training setting. That is what I meant by “only fighting will get you ready to fight.” I definately dont advocate fighting out in society. But the caveat is that fight training will only get you part way there. I just want to make sure that my students and training partners know that training only gets them so far, and there are no guarantees what they will do in an actual aggressive encounter. Nobody knows until they have been there – and that is experience.>

Post: dcohen:

Ahhh. Gotcha. I was wondering why I agreed with the other 95% of what you wrote…well, in this case I guess we can up that to 100%. :lol:

There is a boatload to be said for using your skills (or simply surviving) outside of the training group. It changes your mindset on almost everything, and the emotional/mental part of training really gets a whole new perspective. Thanks!

-Dave>

Post: Greg_G47:

sparring against someone who
a) doesn’t like you much,
b) intimidates you somewhat and
c) you haven’t fought before

is the best preparation you can get for a real fight. If you’re not wearing 20 pounds of protective gear (maybe just gloves and one of those useless foam helmets that’s meant only to protect your head from the floor when you’re KOed) you get a similar adrenaline rush. The realization that “Hey this person is going to cause me some pretty uncomfortable bodily harm” is what takes getting used to. It’s controlled enough that you won’t get murdered, but close enough that you get a bit more of a handle on your fear than you do sparring with someone who you “play” with when you fight.>

Post: Bushi:

[quote=Greg_G47 sparring against someone who
a) doesn’t like you much,
b) intimidates you somewhat and
c) you haven’t fought before

is the best preparation you can get for a real fight. If you’re not wearing 20 pounds of protective gear (maybe just gloves and one of those useless foam helmets that’s meant only to protect your head from the floor when you’re KOed) you get a similar adrenaline rush. The realization that “Hey this person is going to cause me some pretty uncomfortable bodily harm” is what takes getting used to. It’s controlled enough that you won’t get murdered, but close enough that you get a bit more of a handle on your fear than you do sparring with someone who you “play” with when you fight.[/quote 

I agree that this is probably the best.>

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