disecting the punch

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disecting the punch
Original Poster: confusingDot
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 24-05-2005, 12:46

Orginal Post: confusingDot: idea came from post “one inch punch”.

Vertical, horizontal fist. Vertical, horizontal forearm/ bicep. Use or no use wrist joint in punch. loose, no loose then tighten, no tighten fist before punch. Push off, no push off back leg. lift, no lift front leg off ground. moves directly along centerline, to side and diagonal to centerline. ithink i got most of the options,a nd of course you can add more.

I personally only have one straight lead punch (you COULD count it as two if you wish). vertical fist and forearm. Use wrist joint. loose then tighten fist. sometimes push off back leg and lift front leg. first punch in combo moves centerline, and the rest moves to side and diagonal to centerline. specifically for my hand, i like to keep it as though i’m holding a pole pointed at the target, but alot more loose, so the pointer is way more out thent he pinky. This helps the direction of the pull of my fingers closing to be only int he forward direction. COmpared to if my whole hand was open then it would pull my hand down (remember that i keep my wrist bent, then I straight it as i punch).

Post: zefff:

I think this thread hasnt taken off because what you have written is quite confusing and not very elaborate. You mention a lot of aspects to your punching but only very briefly before moving to the next. Also there arent any questions which spark conversation. Sorry.

I have some questions!

You have one punch but why could it be two?

When you mention your lead punch you say “vertical fist and forearm”. What does the forearm do? What do you mean?

Also what does “the pointer is way more out thent he pinky” mean? What type of punch are you throwing? I know its a straight lead but in what style? Just so I can get a better picture.>

Post: confusingDot:

yeah. you’re right i didn’t ask any question at all. which i had meant to do, i think i made the thread too quickly. I had meant to say waht kind of punches do you do, and waht advantages do they ahve to certian situations?

My punch could be two because sometimes I push off the back leg in the punch. It will only usually be the first punch in a combo as well. My hands when fighting start out centerline, and i keep out of range before moving in. so once i feel i’m close enough to fly forawrd, I push off my back leg. then just move forward while doing the rest of my combo.

The vertical forearm alls me to protect my rib cage, and allows me to relax easier when in stance, and it’s more natural to have a vertical forearm with a vertical fist.

the punch is my own make. I’ll try to explain it better. I start out with vertical fist, and wrist fully relaxed. My elbow is down. i will explain an exaggerated version of my hand. Point your pointer finger fully stretched out, then keep your pinky finger fully curled, and the ring figner is slightly less curled, and the middle is even less c urled then that. Then relax yoru hand, and that is pretty much how my hand is. When my punch is thrown I move my hand forward normally, and keep my elbow relatively pointed downward, and my fist vertical. I pull in all my fingers into a fist and straighten my wrist. that is my punch. I believe it’s takes all hte opporutnities it can to make a punch as powerful as possible, with no less speed.>

Post: jlambvo:

In my opinion, pushing off with the back leg like that is rather slow, telegraphed, and leaves you pretty committed to that attack. For a basic textbook straight punch, our leg work consists of relaxing the front knee out until that heel is about to lift off the ground. The hips and spine have rocked forward slightly. At this point you allow the rear hip and knee to glide forward. That foot almost floats across the ground.

In other words, its like walking without all the extraneous movement we add in over the course of our lives. You are letting gravity affect your body’s mechanic design so that you “fall” forward, and with the correct distancing are properly rooted upon impact. This last part is very important, since the forward motion is not meant to throw your mass into the person, but just bring you into position where you can strike; a punch itself happens in the two or so inches of penetration of the fist. You must be properly rooted however so that your whole mass can SUPPORT this punch and absorb the reflected force, where it is directed into weak (unsupported) points of the opponent.

Something I’ve been experimenting with is coiling up a bit of tension on that back leg which springs out just after the front knee goes forward, and then letting gravity take over. The intention here is to accelerate the acceleration due to gravity, rather than using it as the lone source of acceleration. “Jerk” I think is the proper term.

A few advantages of this kind of punching: if you stop or are interrupted at any point of the punch, you are never out of “kamae” or in a state of disbalancement (other than the inevitable moment of free-fall like you experience while walking, but your legs are always in position to catch you). You can wait until almost the last moment to choose your target and fist, where pushing off and depending on speed forces you to choose from the beginning. Lastly, although it looks slow from a third part perspective and looks slow/telegraphed at first from the reciever’s, there is moment of sudden acceleration that feels sort of like several frames being snipped from a film reel.

This is only one very basic way of punching. The control it offers you is nice for beginners because you can do it slowly without sacrificing proper distancing and penetration.>

Post: confusingDot:

“slow, telegraphed, and leaves you pretty committed”

If anything, pushing off the back leg gets you from point A to point B faster, with a harder hit. Adding speed, not taking away, so it cannot be slower.

You push off the back leg at the same time that you punch, so it does not telegraph your hit any earlier.

It does leave you pretty commited, but every attack does leave you at least a little bit, and then there are times in which you do moves that leave you more ocmmited, and attacks that leave you less commited.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Punching and pushing off your rear leg takes longer to “start up”, so to speak, than just punching does, and anything moving your whole body instead of just your hand is easier to see coming. All of these things considered, I still step and punch to move in on people or if I really need to move them with the hit.>

Post: jlambvo:

Actually, moving your whole body can be decieving in some ways. You can hide smaller movements inside this bigger one, so that it appears slow at first. Tricks of relative speed. Your leg movement compounds the speed of your punch. Footwork makes punches your longest range weapon as well, rather than kicks; your body is simply longer from toe to finger than one foot to the other (unless you are kicking from a handstand or something :)).

ConfusingDot, the philosophy (agree with me or not) is that gravity will accelerate you faster than you can possibly push off. The telegraphing is due to the fact that you have to tense before you explode forward, where initiating movement with spontaneous relaxation is near impossible to see coming (other than knowing what cannot be relaxed due to wieght distribution and body alignment).>

Post: confusingDot:

punchign and pushing off your rear leg does take longer to start up, then just to punch. My hand moves no slower, and accelerates no slower, when adding in the back leg. My hand does the same, but the rest of my body adds in the back leg. Therefore adding the rear leg cannot hinder, but only help your accelerationg.

Yeah, you are right, I see now that it is telegraphing, no ealier, but easier to be seen. Truthfully, I’m in no class and do not practice alot with people, so it’s hard to see, but logically i can see that. seeing a bigger moving object being easier then seeing a small moving object.

i do use gravity AND pushing off to help me accelerate. I left my front leg so that i fall forward as well as being pushed forward. i’m sorry if this is a stupid test, but it seems to work just fine. I held a lighter in my left hand (jsut for this case, it can be anythign since mass does n’t change acceleration do to gravity), and i lay on my back with my whole right hand on the ground, and once i released the lighter, i shot my hand up as fast as i could, and i reached full extention before the lighter hit the ground. you can try something similar too. So acceleration of the hand is greater the 9.87 meters/s^2.

I do not have to tense before i explode forward. At least from the stance taht i’m in. My body is quite relaxed and springy.>

Post: zefff:

confusingDot mate. Summat I do that helps is to practise infront of a big mirror. Look at yourself and make the fist the first thing that moves and the last thing to stop moving. In other words, start the punch along its path. Push of the back foot and propel the body forward. Then finish the strike.

Do it slow at first, watching yourself and how you move. Get used to this movement and how it feels and looks. It is very hard but even if you are only moving your body an inch, thats a good basis for great things. The mirror is a brilliant tool. One of the best! 8)

Even if you dont achieve the feat of moving your bodies weight forward quicker than your fist, you will still have a thrusting K.O. jab that is superior to most peoples. Combine mirror work with skipping, shadow boxing and many, many repeated advancing jabs or chain punches. I do this myself in sets of 10: 2 rapid punches with one step. 4 punches with 2 steps. 6 punches with 3 steps. 8 and then 10 punches with 5 rapid steps in succession. It works great for me! :mrgreen: Ontop of this any stick and knife training that stresses mobility as one of the highest attributes will get your footwork resembling the riverdance! 8) :lol: :lol: :lol:>

Post: jlambvo:

I think we are miscommunicatnig a little here, ConfusingDot :)

I’m not talking about the fact that pushing off with the back leg takes longer to start up than just punching. I DO mean that pushing off the back leg takes longer to start up than beginning the motion by letting your front knee relax (almost buckle forward) so that your boyd and back leg “falls” forward. Just a different approach. :)>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I think he was talking to me, at least for that part. Sorry about the confusion. Also, good point about hiding the smaller movements in the larger ones. You can do something that involves almost no movement and barely looks like a strike and slam it into people just by stepping forward.>

Post: confusingDot:

zeff
i pretty much start all my movements at hte same time, and end them at the same time.
I guess this is a talk about the balance between the added affect of telegraphing from pushing off the back leg making the punch less effective because they are able to now block/dodge/deflect it a bit easier because of hte telegraphing, or will the added speed/power/distance of pushing off the back leg make the punch more effective because of reasons known.
I personally rely upon the fact taht most shots land anyways, even if made a little less effective by the reciever. Thus the difference in damage and average landing punches points taht you’d want a faster, more powerful punch, compared to one that telegraphs a little less.

jlambvo
i am saying that i combine both lifting my front foot off hte ground (which allows gravity to work easier, then letting your leg buckle), and pushing off as well.
If gravity is to have a better start, then that is where most of the acceleration will be. then i will still push off my back leg and it will still add more affect. If pushing off is to ahve a better start, then that is where most of the acceleration will be. then i will still lift my front leg, and it will still add more affect. Thus not saying which one is more effective, but taht the most effective one will still do it’s thing, and then the lesser of the two will still be able to help.
Also i’m wondeirng what is it that makes you believe that gravity will allow you to accelerate faster then pushing off your back leg? i’m trying to think of a way to test it, but i can’t.>

Post: jlambvo:

ConfusingDot,

Do you step forward with the back leg that pushes off (does it switch to the lead leg), or are you thinking of a cross-body punch? I’m generally referring to stepping in with the punch.

The reasoning is that gravity is constantly acting on you, the very act of standing is resisting that force. Allowing it to move you is a matter of how quickly you can relax that resistance, and it continues to accelerate you at the same rate.

To push off requires that you first shift your body weight and “chamber” the leg so that the muscles you contract to move are in their most potentially powerful state. While the initial acceleration might be higher than that due to gravity, this figure will drop across the range of motion and only occurs as long as that foot has contact with the ground.

Depending on the mechanics of the punch, gravity might take over or play a part (as you describe). But I think there are several other problems that power from pushing off introduces: because you are using muscles to drive forward, stopping or changing in mid punch is very difficult if not impossible, and like I mentioned your momentum is very dedicated. With the approach I’m trying to describe muscles are more like the breaks than the engine… reintroducing tension slows down or stops the punch.

I’m also of the opinion that strike timing and placement, relative to your opponent’s alignment, goes much farther than sheer force of the punch. To cause damage by concussive force alone indicates I high likelihood of damaging your hand in the process. So while there might be some sacrifice in force, this other approach gives more control over placement. This is important for fighting bareknuckle especially.

Of course, its only one way, and I mentioned I’m experimenting with adding some “spring” from the back leg into my punches.>

Post: confusingDot:

i’m talking about the straight lead. lead hand punch. in my punch, i’m in stance, and i push off my back leg, and lift up my front leg (i only lift it enough so it doesn’t touch the ground). Once i have penetrated to the point i wish, i put my front foot down, and regain stance.

“To push off requires that you first shift your body weight and ‘chamber’ the leg”
My knee ankle and any other joints are always bent at least somewhat, and my body weight is always pretty mcuh 50/50 on each leg. So it requires no added chambering, and no big shift of body weight.

“While the initial acceleration might be higher than that due to gravity, this figure will drop across the range of motion and only occurs as long as that foot has contact with the ground. “
as long as What foot has contact with the ground?? i think you might need to rephrase waht you said after “this figure…”. Well if the usefulness of pushing off the back leg happens in the begging, and gravity helps in the end, then it’s a PERFECT match for each to work together.

“The reasoning is that gravity is constantly acting on you, the very act of standing is resisting that force. Allowing it to move you is a matter of how quickly you can relax that resistance, and it continues to accelerate you at the same rate. “
is this reasoning for why gravity accelerates you faster then pushing off your back leg? if it is, i still don’t see how this shows taht gravity accelerates you faster.

“because you are using muscles to drive forward, stopping or changing in mid punch is very difficult if not impossible”.
I dont understand how this is any more impossible then with gravity. To stop, i put down my front foot. With gravity it’s the same… to stop, i put down my front foot. how is my momentum any more dedicated with pushing off, hten to gravity. here is THE equation… the more dedicated my momentum, the greater my momentum, the more powerful my punch… to, the less dedicated my momentum, the weaker my momentum, the weaker my punch. simple. SO if i want to be less dedicated i just make my punch weaker. it’s not whether i’m using gravity or my muscles to gain that momentum.

“I’m also of the opinion that strike timing and placement, relative to your opponent’s alignment, goes much farther than sheer force of the punch. To cause damage by concussive force alone indicates I high likelihood of damaging your hand in the process. So while there might be some sacrifice in force, this other approach gives more control over placement. This is important for fighting bareknuckle especially. “
of course. strike timing is based upon when you decide to punch, and placement is where you aim. the probability of it landing does depend on how fast it takes for your hand to get there, compared to the time it takes for them to realise you’re punching, and block/dodge/deflect. “this other approach” is what? your approach of just using gravity? how does this allow more control over placement? i pretty much only think in bareknuckle fighting situations. and of course i know that placement will also help keep your hand safer.

“Of course, its only one way, and I mentioned I’m experimenting with adding some “spring” from the back leg into my punches.”
and this is waht i’m advocating, and explaining. although it seems you are going against what you are experimenting.

summary of waht i’m trying to say. There was no needed chambering, or shifting of body weight. Using both push of the leg, and pull of gravity is a great combination. Dedicated movement is depended on how powerful the punch is, so if want less dedicated, just make hte punch less powerful.

i didn’t know where else to put this so here it is. also remember that using gravity will creat a force going in a diagonal direction, compared to pushign off the back leg which will create a force going in a more horizontal direction, which is the direction taht you usually want it to go in.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Without getting too deeply into this, if you’re going to post an equation, post an equation. Writing a semi-logical sentence using ambiguous terminology does not constitute an equation.

Also, gravity does not create diagonal force. Gravity pulls downwards, as in toward the Earth’s center. When you allow it to assist your punches, you use your legs to make your body fall on a diagonal plane instead of straight down. Besides that, striking diagonally down isn’t necessarily bad.>

Post: confusingDot:

sorry… i did not mean to imply an arithmetic equation or an equation using variables. but rather, “if this hten this”… hwich is still an equation. if argument still persists on this, then a dictionary should clarify. i can even say it so it’s easier to be seen as an equation. if there is more momentum, then there is more power. If there is more momentum, then there is more dedication/commitment int he punch. If there is more power, then there is more dedication/commitment in the punch. therefore you can control the dedication/commitment by the power, rather then using gravity or pushing off the back leg, or both. i’m sorry… i had htought hat the sentence was logical, and that it was easily interpreted by one interpretation.

“Also, gravity does not create diagonal force. Gravity pulls downwards, as in toward the Earth’s center. When you allow it to assist your punches, you use your legs to make your body fall on a diagonal plane instead of straight down. Besides that, striking diagonally down isn’t necessarily bad.”
exactly waht i had said. “gravity will creat a force going in a diagonal direction”. I had never siad that gravity didn’t pull down, but is aid when you used it that it would “creat a force going in a diagonal direction”, which we already know is the punch. and i never said that it was bad… all i had said was “which is the direction taht you usually want it to go in”. or course it has it’s place.

Gong||Jau… dude i relaly feel like you’re out ot get me or something. iono, but it really feels like you’re nitpicking at whatever you can, whether it’s there or not. i really don’t feel as though my wrods are that hard to understand. i don’t try to be ambiguous, or set my standard to only semi-logical. i try to follow along with my signature as much as possible, and i never siad i was good at doing it either, but just that i try. or course i can’t be for sure, whether you are or aren’t. just wanted to let you know how your words are letting off to me.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I’m not out to get your personally. The thing is, a lot of times (at least to me) your logic isn’t very clear or your sentences are sort of ambiguous/confusing. If English isn’t your first language then I’m sorry, but sometimes it’s hard to tell exactly what you’re trying to say.

For example, when you talk about power and dedication, it’s possible to throw a very powerful strike without commiting to it, or to throw a very weak strike and commit a lot to it (think haymaker). It’s stuff like this that throws me off, and I tend to pick at stuff like this because a lot of times people (I’m not saying you do this) fudge physics until it supports them without really thinking about what they’re saying.>

Post: confusingDot:

i’m talking about a straight lead. and the equation was taht if you put more power, then there is more dedication. If you put less power into a haymaker, it’ll be less dedicated, if you put more power into a haymaker, it’ll be more dedicated. the equation still exists.

yes english is my first language. i’m sorry i’m os bad at it.

but i don’t ever try to fudge physics, and i do try and think about what i’m saying.

maybe why my logic is’nt very clear is because i skip alot of steps. i’ll try and change that. when i do things, ltos of times i jsut stated hte problem, and the solution i thought up, and not so much all the processes inbetween. i guess maybe in my mind i feel as though people should already understand me.

as with ambiguity… i don’t how else to put it. it seems to me simple as to what it means…

i’ll try, i guess>

Post: Gong||Jau:

We’re not talking about exactly the same type of straight lead though. Using jlambvo’s method, you have very little commitment because all you have to do is tense your muscles to stop falling into it. Don’t get me wrong, I push off with the back leg when I step into punches, but once you start moving it’s going to be much harder to check yourself or change direction than if you just sink into them (which I also do at different times).

The reason I gave the example of the haymaker is because when you use different mechanics to generate power you are differently committed even if you generate similar amounts of power.>

Post: confusingDot:

using just gravity, you have to tense your muslces of your leg to stop. using your back foot to push off, you have to drop your foot (for me less then an inch) and tense your muscles of your leg to stop. the only reason why it would make it harder or easier ot stop, is how Much power/momentum/commitment there was, not how you Gained the power/momentume/commitment.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Stepping forward and punching commits you to an attack much more than sinking your weight does. It’s easy to start to punch and stop yourself when you’re just standing there, because you know you’re going to stop. If, on the other hand, you attack and someone slips the punch and pulls on your arm, you’re going to go forward. Even if you put your back foot down you’ll end up overextended and leave yourself vulnerable to an attack. If you sink into attacks, all you have to do is relax and pivot when someone pulls you and because your feet are still planted you don’t move.>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
If you sink into attacks, all you have to do is relax and pivot when someone pulls you and because your feet are still planted you don’t move.

This is how I teach to do a standard punch. As you said, it leaves you much less vulnerable and not at all over extended. The pivot movement alone puts you into position to counter a counter to your punch.

-bamboo :)>

Post: MrApollinax:

Wow, it was really hard to follow this entire thread. Question, are you guys talking about “straight lead” vs “straight blast”? I’m not sure what the point of contention is here. Are you guys talking about entering or in-fighting range?>

Post: zefff:

No offence but who knows what they are talking about? I got bored a long time ago. Just couldnt follow all that chat about specifics.

Personally I use both of those as some times you have to move towards your opponent and other times he has moved to you. Yeah, the lunge might put you in a bad position if it is read well by the opponent but sometimes if you want to achieve things like upsetting preparation, sudden direct attack, destroy his confidence, you have to move in a more offensive manner. Sometimes you have to take calculated risks.>

Post: jlambvo:

It probably doesn’t help that I was talking about a totally different punch. I was describing mechanics optimimal for stepping forward with a right/rear punch (switching this to the forward side), not a straight with the lead (ConfusingDot has been talking about a sort of lunging jab, right?)>

Post: zefff:

sorry jlambvo. i just read back my post and feel a bit :oops: now. at the end of the day the thread is called disecting the punch so i guess its all on topic.

peace>

Post: Gong||Jau:

[quote=jlambvo It probably doesn’t help that I was talking about a totally different punch. I was describing mechanics optimimal for stepping forward with a right/rear punch (switching this to the forward side), not a straight with the lead (ConfusingDot has been talking about a sort of lunging jab, right?)[/quote 

I think most of this stuff can apply to different types of punches. I sure hope so, otherwise I’m seriously confused too :oops: I’m just talking about sinking/pivoting vs. stepping.>

Post: jlambvo:

oh… ok… well then, I’ll say that I was describing “falling” forward at the lead knee and letting the back leg drift forward at the hip to catch you, sinking as that arm comes forward to strike. This has the benefits of both sinking/pivoting and also the reach/body momentum of stepping forward, but with less telegraph.>

Post: confusingDot:

yeah, i’ve been talking about the straight lead this whoe time. the type of my punch was at least named within the first post. i thought gong and i were talking about pushing off the back leg plus gravity vs gravity.

Gong||Jau
with the straight lead. falling forward IS going to ahve less commitment compared to falling forward plus pushing off the back leg. It’s easy to understand because they are both falling forward, but one is adding a little bit more power/momentum/commitment by adding in the pushing of the leg. it is not jsut because of the fact of pushing off my back leg, but because there is more power/momentum/commitment in the punch. you can see that correlation right?

“It’s easy to start to punch and stop yourself when you’re just standing there, because you know you’re going to stop. “
Of course but if you are saying using gravity in your punch as reference to “just standing there”. Those two cannot be the same.

“Even if you put your back foot down you’ll end up overextended and leave yourself vulnerable to an attack. “
You do not use your back foot to help stop your forward motion. YOu use your front foot. It does nto matter how far your back foot is extended in order for your to stop forward motion.

“If you sink into attacks, all you have to do is relax and pivot when someone pulls you and because your feet are still planted you don’t move.”
this can still be done with sinking plus pushign off the back foot.

how about imagine this. There is a gradient from least powerful to most power (i will get to my point later on in the paragraph). first off there is just punching iwth your arm, no movement of anything else, from there you can go from trying as very little as possible to punching as hard as possible just with your arm. from the beginning ot the end your punch gains more power/momentum/commitment. after that, you allow gravity to help your punch. First allowing yourself to fall forward only very slightly, and not very far, then later on more and more, until you get the maximum power you can out of using gravity. From the beginning to the end your punch gains more and more power/momentum/commitment. THen you add in pushing off your back leg to tack onto the rest of the two. first you push off slightly, and not very far, and then more and more. from the beginning ot the end your punch gains more power/momentum/commitment. can you see how it’s all along a line of continuom. There are not breaks inbetween. So saying taht adding in pushing off the back leg is a bad mistake because it adds commitment, cannot be used as an argument because pushing off the back leg and using gravity can still allow less commitment or more. Just for the sake of adding the back leg cannot mean taht I am going to into THAT much more commitment.

tryign to use an example. Say there’s a machine (there might be) that measues how many pounds you punch is. First off you are to use gravity in your punch, and see hwo much it was… we’ll imagine that it’s a 40 pound punch. Now if you were to use gravity plus pushign off the back leg to the greatest extent it would surpass 40 pounds, thus also ahving more power/commitment/momentum. but if you were to push off less (by not going as far), and use gravityless (by not goign as far), and were able to match 40 pounds, then the power/commitment/momentum in both of the 40 pound punches could not be said to be different.

Therefore pushing off your back leg plus sinking vs sinking does not mean that sinking must neccisarily have less commitment, or have less of a chance of being thrown. It is equal, but pushing off your back leg allows you to add more power/commitment/momentum whenever you want surpassing that of just using sinking.

I hope you understand that. as a prewarning… i know taht this might be confusing. but i still think it can be understood, if the reader wishes.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

When I said “just standing there”, I meant if you punch, pushing off with your back foot, in a non-combative situation to test your ability to stop yourself.

Note: I’m assuming that by “pushing off” you mean taking a step of some kind. If you just mean the way a boxer does when throwing a cross, what I’ve written is still true, but to a lesser degree.

I’m not saying stepping into punches is bad. There’s a time and place for it. I’m saying that doing it too often leaves you very vulnerable to being pulled off-balance by someone who knows what they’re doing, so it’s best to do it when you want to move in on an open opponent. It doesn’t commit you more simply because you’re adding power to the punch; it changes the mechanics of the punch and causes you to be more vulnerable. Instead of imagining a continuum, imagine a graph. There’s a line that starts at (0,0) that represents just punching with your arm, then it hits a point where you are punching and sinking (sinking doesn’t add very much more commitment than punching harder with your arm would), then the slope ramps up steeply at the point where you step into it.

I’m not sure if you fully understand what I’m saying when I’m talking about sinking. You drop your weight and twist your hips (I’m not sure if this is exactly what jlambvo was talking about) which adds a TON of power to your punches. It doesn’t shift your center of mass by much, if at all. Stepping in, on the other hand, also adds a ton of power, and allows you to move your opponent more easily (and obviously covers greater distances), but also moves your center of mass. This means that the inertia is for your entire body mass, not just your arm and possibly part of your torso. What does this mean? It’s much easier to pull/throw you when you step in. Also, at some point you have to lift your front foot to step (unless you throw really, really weird punches), which makes you even less stable. If you walk into them without lifting your front foot, you’re carrying your back foot all the way out in front of your other foot, which is even worse in terms of stability and commitment.

I can elaborate on this if you want, but I’m not going to argue this point any further. I’ll show you what I’m saying with a free body diagram (which I’ll draw in MS Paint :mrgreen:) if you *really* want me to (I’d rather not since I don’t have a lot of free time), but I’ve experienced this physically (being pulled on in both situations), which frankly it doesn’t sound like you have, and I understand why it’s true based on simple physics. If you can explain to me why the preceding paragraphs aren’t true I’ll re-evaluate what I’ve said, but unless that happens I’m not going to argue with you, and we’ll just have to agree to disagree.>

Post: confusingDot:

yes it does not seem as though when you talk about sinking, it’s the same as me talking about sinking. for me, sinking is you being in your normal stance, and letting yourself fall forward (while you punch of course), by either lifting your front foot, or relaxing your front leg (which does move your center of mass). I don’t seem to be able to preform the act you are saying with twisting your hips. But i must say that if it doesn’t move your center of mass at all, then it seems as though your punch would not have any more power then only puching iwth your arm.

But if you do agree iwth my description of how sinking owrks… it does not matter how steeply the slope ramps if there is still a slope. The fact still remains taht you can control it. when pushign off and sinking, you can take away power from either one, making it maybe even easier to control. adding pushing off does not instantly put you in any more greater danger. it is still able to be controlled, plus the fact that you now are able to control sinking power as well, so that the commitment will be measurable by the user.

“which frankly it doesn’t sound like you have”
You are correct i have not. I attribute this to the fact that i haven’t sparred against may people who use throws. But i always try to retract my punch and come back to an equilibrium as quick as possible, because i’m aware of the danger.

“If you can explain to me why the preceding paragraphs aren’t true I’ll re-evaluate what I’ve said, but unless that happens I’m not going to argue with you, and we’ll just have to agree to disagree.”
i can only tell you why i BELEIVE that something you said isn’t true. I personally enjoy talking about such thigns. if you don’t, then it’s alright too.>

Post: jlambvo:

I think of sinking in this case as relaxing your knees out, thus dropping your center of mass.

Quote:
I don’t seem to be able to preform the act you are saying with twisting your hips. But i must say that if it doesn’t move your center of mass at all, then it seems as though your punch would not have any more power then only puching iwth your arm.

How about punchign with the rear hand? The punch I was ORIGINALLY talking about :oops: involves relaxing your lead knee and thus center of mass forward and letting the rear leg glide forward to “catch” you, while that rear hand comes forward to strike. You can do this with sort of circular footwork so that you both sink your weight AND are turning your hips… the punch just comes on a sort of arc because of what the legs are doing. Sorry if this is muddled, I’m REALLY frikking tired at the moment.

Gong, I think that although with circular strike you don’t have to worry about being pulled forward off balance, the punches can still be redirected, just differently is all. If a circular strike carried farther than intended, it starts to have an interesting effect of twisting the spine up that can be used to momentarily lock down the body.

It’s something that seems to happen in Gyokko ryu kosshijutsu a lot. An exaggerated example scenerio: a person has been bent backward slightly. A force is applied to one of the shoulder joints which starts to twist and lock the vertebrae one at a time toward the hips. Concurrently, a compressing action is applied through that shoulder joint in the direction of the OPPOSITE foot heel. You basically end up with a sort of paralyzing torque on his center of gravity. In kosshijutsu this is produced over time and to varying degrees with kyusho strikes and small joint manipulation, bit by bit. The kata show you placing yourself to specifically prokoke such twisting strikes and exploiting that movement.

Hope this means something to someone.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I tried to write something just now, and it’s not coming out at all (I’ve been working a lot lately, and am also really tired; sorry). I’ll try to write something at least semi-coherent, probably later in the week. For now I’ll just mention that any added power does tend to commit you more, but stepping in has the added disadvantage of uprooting you and making it so you have no room to absorb pulls and pushes, and since it moves your body as a unit it makes you more like a single mass than a spring, which ideally is the case when you’re on the ground – you can stretch out and adjust to attacks and pulls. Also, I don’t rotate all the time – mostly when I’m pulling on someone else, or when there’s a big enough opening that I can get away with it. Usually I’m satisfied with the power I have in my arm and wrist.>

Post: wingchun_jeetkunedo:

you cannot use two punches in one shot,
i think you mean like you can use double the power as in using your back leg and your fist you can duoble the energy but you can’t have two punches including the foearm sure the forearm is a weapon of the body however is it merely there to support the fist when making the punch.>

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