Fighting against armed or multiple opponents

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Fighting against armed or multiple opponents
Original Poster: Sparky-bjj
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 24-06-2006, 14:17

Orginal Post: Sparky-bjj: What do you guys think is a great martial art against multiple opponents? I personally think there isn’t a martial art that learns you to effectively defend against multiple opponents. But if I had to choose one it would propably be one where you learn to absorb punches and finish the fight real quick. A fighting style wich emphasizes toughness and pure striking force. I’m not an expert on this matter, but doesn’t kyokushin teach this? Is there any other martial art that you guys think is quite good against multiple opponents, like muay thai or wing chun or something? I was talking about fighting multiple opponents the other day with a fellow bjj-player and he said he knows a guy who fights on the street a lot. He claimed that this guy would jump guard when faced with multiple opponents and use the opponent on top of him as a shield…This doesn’t seem al that clever to me :) , what do you guys think? We all know that bjj isn’t good against multiple opponents but I think that things like ‘technical standup’, takedowns and takedown-defense is valuable when facing multiple opponents.
What do you think is a good martial art against armed opponents? I also think that there isn’t a martial art in wich you learn to defend against armed opponents effectively. I think it’s to risky to fight an armed opponent and it should only be done if you have no other choiche and running away isn’t an option. It propably depends on wich weapon is used to decide wich martial art is good at fighting it. For example, when someone has a knive it’s very important to stay at a distance and only come close once you’ve got the knife out of his hands or when you have complete control over the arm holding the knife. So when fighting someone with a knife it’s propably best to stay at a long distance and try to kick the knife out of his hands. So maybe taekwondo is a good option? This may sound ridiculous but isn’t a flying armbar a good option if you have control over the arm holding the knife? When I would have to fight somebody with a knife and running away or controlling the arm is impossible, I would propably jump to open guard (with or without control over his arms) and try to sweep him as quickly as possible, then when he’s down and I’m up I would run away or start kicking his head. If I somehow manage to control the arm I’d go for an armbar obviously. This ‘jumping to open guard’ may seem ridiculous but I think this is the last thing your opponent expects you to do and if it happens really fast it might work… anyway I wouldn’t know what to do otherwise when running away isn’t an option and somehow I feel a lot safer when I’m lying on my back… When fighting someone with a blunt weapon, like for example a baseball bat it’s a completely different situation. I think it’s best to close the distance because that way you take away his power. So in my opinion bjj is a good option when fighting someone with a blunt weapon. When you close the distance and take him down you take away his power. Offcourse closing the distance against someone with a baseball bat is quite risky… :) .
Anyway all in all I don’t think there isn’t a good way to fight multiple opponents or someone with a weapon. Doing this in an effective way is a martial arts myth if you ask me. Offcourse this is all my opinion. What do you guys think about this matter?

Post: zefff:

One day if you are really stupid or unlucky you might have to fight more than one person and they might all each have weapons. You will either run away or want to attack them. If you fight the way to win is in your mind but you still need technique and principles to keep you safe(r) and maximise your input.

I believe using grappling is wrong. You should have a strategy with exit as the objective not defeating the opponents. Going for some crazy tie-up move that defeats one target while sacrificing mobility and defence from other targets is madness IMHO. Think of it like this, an army does not start a battle by sending in the close quarter foot soldiers does it? No, they soften the target from a distance with projectiles (missles, bombs, arrows, dead cows).

When people think about the futility of fighting multiple or armed opponents they forget the goal which is to survive, not to defeat them…of course I am just chatting shit here but it is in the mind. If you are that emotionally charged you will do whatever you feel is right but ‘on da streetz’ you dont need to defeat people. If you did you would arm yourself.>

Post: dscott:

From what I’ve seen, Systema is supposed to be geared towards multiple opponents, right?>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

?I personally think there isn’t a martial art that learns you to effectively defend against multiple opponents.? ? Spark-bjj

From this statement I believe that I can safely assume that you have never studied Kung Fu or Taiji. There is no Kung Fu or Taiji form (well aside from Wing Tsun wooden dummy) that is geared towards fighting one opponent.

Now, I?m not saying that I?m Billy-badass fight an army of robot ninjas; only that there are martial arts that train how to fight multiple opponents and how to do it well.>

Post: paperchaser:

In my opinion its all how you train. Do you practice being attacked by multiples often? Any style can be effective (or at least better than nothing) if practiced that way.

Aikidoists have long integrated multiple attackers into training. I spent a few weeks working with an aikidoist collegue and he shared some of their general principles for dealing with multiple attackers. Some I liked and integrated into my approach, certain concepts can be integrated into any art.

In the club fights I’ve seen, where one attacker is swiftly and brutally injured the others tended to back off. Specifically the crunching sound of a standing arm-bar being used to dislocate an attacker’s shoulder had a chilling effect on the aggressiveness of his comerades. On the other hand, where one guy took the fight to the ground its simply a chance for his buddies to start throwing punches and kicks. Usually the pile-on is such a mess that BJJ-style ground fighting isn’t really possible. But thats just what I’ve seen.

The same holds true for weapon defense. IMHO, the weaponless styles have poor weapon defense compared to the styles that integrate weapons. The aikidoists I’ve known have always had the best skill at dealing with staff/bat attacks and the phillipino (kali or escrima I always confuse the two) have had great knife defense and disarms. Boxers/strikers/kickers usually get beaten and stabbed (in the dojo I mean) relying on a weaponless style’s defenses.

Like anything else there’s always exceptions.>

Post: Sparky-bjj:

Quote:
?I personally think there isn’t a martial art that learns you to effectively defend against multiple opponents.? ? Spark-bjj

From this statement I believe that I can safely assume that you have never studied Kung Fu or Taiji. There is no Kung Fu or Taiji form (well aside from Wing Tsun wooden dummy) that is geared towards fighting one opponent.

Now, I?m not saying that I?m Billy-badass fight an army of robot ninjas; only that there are martial arts that train how to fight multiple opponents and how to do it well.

I know that there are martial arts that claim to learn you how to defend against multiple attackers. I just doubt that this will actually work in real life. I’m not saying that I know it doesn’t work, because I have never trained in the styles you mentioned. I also don’t mean to disrespect you in any way. Let me put it this way: If I and 3 buddies of mine where to simultaenously attack a master in the disciplines you mentioned, I personally doubt if he would have much chance to beat us. Even if we would use no martial skills whatsoever and we would just start beating his face, I doubt he would win…But like I said before I’ve never trained in the styles you mention (or any traditional styles) so I’m really not sure if I’m right. I personally think that the ability to absorp punches and quickly hitting the opponents very hard is a good way to defeat multiple opponents. Boxing perhaps would be good for this. Taking one of them down or punching one of them in the face by surprise before the fight has really begun and thus creating an opening and then running away is also a good option. Furthermore I think running away is the easiest and best solution. And since bjj is about always looking for the easiest solution in a fight: minimum effort for maximum efficiency, this is what I would do :)>

Post: zefff:

[quote=Sparky-bjj 

If I and 3 buddies of mine where to simultaenously attack a master in the disciplines you mentioned, I personally doubt if he would have much chance to beat us. Even if we would use no martial skills whatsoever and we would just start beating his face, I doubt he would win…[/quote 

Im sure WushuP’ can answer your points but this quoted text really stuck out to me. You assume wrongly that the defendant might use methods of defence that you are familiar with. NOI at all but it seems to me that your head is in sport.

You win by attacking the mind first. If you and your three buddies knew that if you are caught by the master he will kill you then you would have to weigh up if the objective is worth risking your life. This impacts on your morale and thus your performance. If all thats at stake is a black eye then of course you and your buddies will be full of bravado and confidence.

peace>

Post: Sparky-bjj:

Quote:
You assume wrongly that the defendant might use methods of defence that you are familiar with. NOI at all but it seems to me that your head is in sport.

I don’t assume that he will use methods I’m familiar with. I assume that he will use methods that will not be adequate enough to effectively win the fight against 4 people who attack all at the same time. But again, I can’t stress this enough, I might be wrong as I’m not familiar with the more traditional martial arts and I might underestimate them. And again I don’t mean to disrespect anyone. But if I had to fight a kung fu master with four other guys and we can fight as dirty as we want, I wouldn’t even think about the possibility of getting killed as I would be quite sure that we would win. Offcourse I know it’s unwise to underestimate someone who has 10 years of kung fu experience. But even if he does have 10 years of experience, I really don’t see him winning a fight against 4 guys who attack him vicously all at the same time. Except if he can somehow deflect or absorb all our punches at the same time while avoiding to fall to the ground…but I don’t see that happening.>

Post: paperchaser:

I want to ammend my post, which I also think addressed the debate between zeff and sparky.

With both multiple attackers and weapon attacks, there is a big difference between trained and untrained attackers.

Its actually not that easy to coordinate a group attack if there isn’t a pre-arranged plan. You get in eachother’s way, and if the defender has experience, he’ll use that against you. You’re dealing with a cornered animal, so very likely at least one of the attackers will get hurt. If the experienced martial artist resorts to deadly or near-deadly targets/techniques/maims, the outcome isn’t a sure bet for the attackers. Also, in a “mugging”, the longer the fight draws attention the more likely the attackers will abandon the attack to avoid the police. Defender will get hit, doesn’t mean he’ll loose. Odds against him, but many many variables in play.

The same is true of weapons. Inexperience with a weapon makes the presence of the weapon just as dangerous to the wielder. Long time since I’ve gotten “cut” by a novice in the dojo. But an experienced knifer will carve me up like a turkey before I get a strike or disarm in.

The good news is that the more training others have in the martial arts, the less likely they are to attack you without provocation.>

Post: zefff:

No worries Sparky, Im sure no one will flip out on here ;)

“I don’t assume that he will use methods I’m familiar with. I assume that he will use methods that will not be adequate enough to effectively win the fight against 4 people who attack all at the same time.”

Do you see the contradiction here in your words or is it just me?

You are making assumption of your emenies abilities based on your own knowledge and capabilities – similar to rules in a game where both sides know what is within the rules and what is not.

If the ‘master’ has an unseen knife in his pocket you would have made a big mistake yes? Now by attacking you 4 guys with the knife has he broken the rules? Yes, he has broken through the preconception you had and thus shattered your confidence.

Now even if he does not have a knife he still will have to totally upset your gameplan and work effectively in ways beyond your knowledge and capabilities. A superior weapon is one way (knife beats fist) but still the ‘master’ must attack in a way that destoys your four guys confidence and puts them on the defence so they cant think about attacking.

You are saying you cant see a way it can be done, I am saying I can and that the way to do it is to make yourself a bigger badass than the guys in front of you. Also remember group dynamics, meaning all four of your mates will not have the same traits and mental disposition. There is always a hierarchy to a group and an informal group is always fuelled by the leaders ego.

So if you are the leader of your group I would expect the ‘master’ to preemptively smash you to reduce or freeze the followers will. If he does that with a flying arm bar or a right hook thats his business but I would always say attack the mind first.

I dunno, maybe others have got better ideas?

peace>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

Quote:
If I and 3 buddies of mine where to simultaenously attack a master in the disciplines you mentioned, I personally doubt if he would have much chance to beat us. Even if we would use no martial skills whatsoever and we would just start beating his face, I doubt he would win…

If you and three buddies with no martial arts experience attacked a REAL Kung Fu or Taiji master I seriously doubt that any of you could even touch him:
A real master of Kung Fu or Taiji can disable you and your three friends in under a minute (ex: Dim Mak poison hands).

Even if you survived the initial attack and where able to touch the master then you open up a whole new world of hurt:
The master could know Iron Body in which case your attacks would not hurt him.
The master could redirect the force of your attacks making each punch you throw damage only yourself.>

Post: opariser1001:

[quote=WushuPadawan001 
Quote:
If I and 3 buddies of mine where to simultaenously attack a master in the disciplines you mentioned, I personally doubt if he would have much chance to beat us. Even if we would use no martial skills whatsoever and we would just start beating his face, I doubt he would win…

If you and three buddies with no martial arts experience attacked a REAL Kung Fu or Taiji master I seriously doubt that any of you could even touch him:
A real master of Kung Fu or Taiji can disable you and your three friends in under a minute (ex: Dim Mak poison hands).
[/quote 

gimme a break…>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=WushuPadawan001 
Quote:
If I and 3 buddies of mine where to simultaenously attack a master in the disciplines you mentioned, I personally doubt if he would have much chance to beat us. Even if we would use no martial skills whatsoever and we would just start beating his face, I doubt he would win…

If you and three buddies with no martial arts experience attacked a REAL Kung Fu or Taiji master I seriously doubt that any of you could even touch him:
A real master of Kung Fu or Taiji can disable you and your three friends in under a minute (ex: Dim Mak poison hands).

Even if you survived the initial attack and where able to touch the master then you open up a whole new world of hurt:
The master could know Iron Body in which case your attacks would not hurt him.
The master could redirect the force of your attacks making each punch you throw damage only yourself.[/quote 

Please tell me you are not that NAIVE and you posted this as a joke. Or you’re working on a new B Kunf Fu movie.>

Post: zefff:

*cue Bushi*>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

You know Wushu reminds me of Creative Fighter….remember him….>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

8)>

Post: Gazelle:

Very little experience with kung fu, therefore i’m not making any comment in favour of not of Wushu’s post. He seems to know his stuff pretty well, so i’m certainly not questioning him.

But one thing i can say is that for the most part i’m with paperchaser on this one.>

Post: Hengest:

Oh Padawan (sigh)…

I’m starting to think you’re a lost cause mate.>

Post: zefff:

I am not famiar with the mentioned Kung fu techniques so I cant talk about them but one question that came to mind is, are there any documented cases of acupuncture being misused or accidentally applied wrongly causing ill-effects anywhere?>

Post: samurai6string:

There are too many variables involved in that situation. Here’s a scenario that no Kung Fu or any other style master could escape from:

It’s a crowded bar. Standing room only.

Myself and my three friends, Hengest , Gazelle, and Zeff, decide we want to take out Grand Master Sum Guy who happens to be in the same bar.

Gazelle makes her way through the crowd to stand infront of Sum Guy, engaging him in conversation and using her feminen wiles to charm him.

Zeff, Hengest, and I make our way with our glass pints in hand to stand behind Sum Guy. Hengest chugs his pint, then proceeds to slam it down on Sum Guy’s head while he is distracted.

If Sum Guy doesn’t immediately hit the floor, he is now surrounded by 4 assailants, and at least 3 of them are armed with weapons (the glass pints).

asssuming he doesn’t go down, he might turn around to engage the 3 males, giving his back to Gazelle, which is also not a good place to be.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=samurai6string Zeff, Hengest, and I make our way with our glass pints in hand to stand behind Sum Guy. Hengest chugs his pint, then proceeds to slam it down on Sum Guy’s head while he is distracted. [/quote 

That is uncanny mate. Have you seen me fight before? :twisted:>

Post: samurai6string:

it was a fair guess :) I know how you Brits roll.>

Post: zefff:

LMAO! I prefer diagional upwards thrust to face with my pint glass or No1 angle clout from 6 yards with a stout ashtray 8)>

Post: Gazelle:

Nice scenerio samurai. Just one thing, why the heck would we decide to go against our Grand Master in a bar? Can you imagine going to the next training session. He’d surely make us pay big time + about a gazillion in interest.

I’m not entirely sure whih would be more effective with the pint glass. Maybe needs testing???>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
If you and three buddies with no martial arts experience attacked a REAL Kung Fu or Taiji master I seriously doubt that any of you could even touch him:
A real master of Kung Fu or Taiji can disable you and your three friends in under a minute (ex: Dim Mak poison hands).

Even if you survived the initial attack and where able to touch the master then you open up a whole new world of hurt:
The master could know Iron Body in which case your attacks would not hurt him.
The master could redirect the force of your attacks making each punch you throw damage only yourself.

How did I miss this?
Wushu, WTF? C’mon man! You have to know better than this, you are joking…right?

There is NO superman martial art system. Dim mak poison hands? Punches damaging only the guy that threw them? Whats next, chi balls of fire?

Give me ONE solid film of a guy doing this, not a demo, but a match.

And to his “kung fu brothers”, shame on you for letting him believe this, shame.

-bamboo>

Post: Sparky-bjj:

Quote:
If you and three buddies with no martial arts experience attacked a REAL Kung Fu or Taiji master I seriously doubt that any of you could even touch him:
A real master of Kung Fu or Taiji can disable you and your three friends in under a minute (ex: Dim Mak poison hands).

Even if you survived the initial attack and where able to touch the master then you open up a whole new world of hurt:
The master could know Iron Body in which case your attacks would not hurt him.
The master could redirect the force of your attacks making each punch you throw damage only yourself.

I’m not familiar with kung fu or taji. But I really doubt this would happen…This only happens in the movies if you ask me. If kung fu masters are really that powerfull, how come there isn’t one kung fu master who competes and wins succesfully in mma or other bouts? Is it because they are not interested in competion and money (wich could be the case)? Or is it because they wouldn’t have that much of a chance against an experienced mma fighter? I don’t think there is one ‘all powerfull’ martial art wich destroys all others. And things like ‘redirecting the force of my attacks’ is the stuff you see in hong kong movies. Offcourse we might all be wrong and masters like this could exist. But I’d like some proof. If you know a master who wants to take on me and three of my friends I’d gladly do it :) .>

Post: bamboo:

Btw,

To see a really nice kung fu man fighting, theres a video over at bullshido of one of their own (Omega) fighting MMA. He is a CMA practitioner.

I won’t link it here out of respect for thier own board.

-bamboo>

Post: Gazelle:

[quote=”Sparky-bjj” 
Quote:
‘redirecting the force of my attacks’ is the stuff you see in hong kong movies.

Now, i know you can do that, if you mean ‘redirecting the force of your opponents attacks’ that is, otherwise i have no idea what you mean.
Aikido uses the technique all the time. If you see a practitioner with people running at him (obviously individually, not all at once), they always change the direction of the force that is coming towards them, they use the energy that the attacker has come at him with against him, maybe use it to put them into a throw, or a lock or what ever (notice the complete lack of knowledge on technique), but i’m positive that they do it.

And actually, the whole chi stuff works, provided the opponent is receptive to it, which your average run-of-the-mill attacker won’t be.>

Post: bamboo:

Indeed, aikidoka do redirect force. An aikidoka redirects force but more importantly contols the space around them, bringing an attacker into a sphere of control and hopefully spitting them back out. It needs the entire body movement to accomplish this. For this reason, atemi or striking in the sense to move people is practiced and employed in the better of dojos.

The problem was this statement:

Quote:
The master could redirect the force of your attacks making each punch you throw damage only yourself.

That is silly, when force is redirected it does not always result in damage, and especially not in inflicting damage from the strike back to the striker. Infact, the entire idea of redirecting force is to break the balance and control the person, once that is accomplished (and thats the REALLY hard part), then a lock throw, strike can be used.

-bamboo>

Post: Gazelle:

Thank you.>

Post: bamboo:

My pleasure, its rather nice to have someone think through what they write and offer good arguements.

-bamboo>

Post: Gazelle:

Well, i like to think, so you might be seeing a few more of them before long.>

Post: zefff:

“I don’t think there is one ‘all powerfull’ martial art wich destroys all others.”

Obviously youve never heard of the deathstar! 8)

“And actually, the whole chi stuff works, provided the opponent is receptive to it, which your average run-of-the-mill attacker won’t be.”

eh???

…anyway, all martial arts use redirection in at least some technique.

….and, maybe the true masters dont expose themselves because they dont want to be captured by underground organisations and experimented on.>

Post: Gazelle:

Do you think there could be some underground schools, training the next generation of ultimate masters as well?

Is the ‘eh???’ to the whole sentence, or just a part of it?>

Post: bamboo:

Alot of great schools are in people’s basements, backyards and garages.>

Post: Gazelle:

I meant in the context of Zefff’s statement, which i suppose is only slightly different.

It must be pretty cool to be in a school like that.>

Post: zefff:

Forget it Gazelle, I cant be arsed to start talking about chi but I wish people would realise that fighting is actually crap and really low class. No matter what method you use, wether you use your body, a pint glass, a sword, chi-balls, dim mak or a deathstar, all fighting is a very primitive response.

If you have to fight you have already messed up! I am not the only person on here who has said this.

SOOooooo concentrating on developing better physical tools is a low level strategy IMHO regardless of the art.

peace>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

:mrgreen:>

Post: Gazelle:

I do realise! I hope i never end up in a situation where i have to defend myself. I would think that if people have learned anything about me it is that (well, provided they have read the right posts), i must have mentioned related bits like it about half- a-dozen times.

And i didn’t mean that chi would neccesarily work in a fight. It only works with a few people who are ‘open’/trained to that kind of stuff.>

Post: PunchDrunk:

Funny, I’m almost fourty, and I’ve not had to fight since I was in high school. I guess my Kung-Fu teacher was right when he said “Don’t be there!”>

Post: Stazzy:

Oh, how I pray Michael doesn’t read this thread…>

Post: angryrocker4:

Read my sig! :twisted: :twisted: 8)>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=Sparky-bjj 
Quote:
You assume wrongly that the defendant might use methods of defence that you are familiar with. NOI at all but it seems to me that your head is in sport.

I don’t assume that he will use methods I’m familiar with. I assume that he will use methods that will not be adequate enough to effectively win the fight against 4 people who attack all at the same time. But again, I can’t stress this enough, I might be wrong as I’m not familiar with the more traditional martial arts and I might underestimate them. And again I don’t mean to disrespect anyone. But if I had to fight a kung fu master with four other guys and we can fight as dirty as we want, I wouldn’t even think about the possibility of getting killed as I would be quite sure that we would win. Offcourse I know it’s unwise to underestimate someone who has 10 years of kung fu experience. But even if he does have 10 years of experience, I really don’t see him winning a fight against 4 guys who attack him vicously all at the same time. Except if he can somehow deflect or absorb all our punches at the same time while avoiding to fall to the ground…but I don’t see that happening.[/quote 

FYI, you cannot graduate to Black Belt in Aikido without proving several times that you can take on 3 people attacking by suprise. At least as far as I know you cannot. There may be some schools that this is not true I am not sure.

But the research stuff I have watched and read on it says you must win against 3 people to be a Black Belt.

I am positive that if you strictly practice the methods and techniques of Aikido under a respected and experienced teacher you will do well. That is if your ability and skill is up to it.

I am also positive that if you and your four friends attacked Steven Seagal(sp?), that you would end up on your head in pain instantly. I don’t even like Seagal. But I have seen him instructing classes as well as sparing. Aikido is no joke.>

Post: samurai6string:

Do you study Aikido, Red Beard? I’m rather sorry, but no matter who you are or what you know, if you are taken by surprise by some guy walking up behind you and smashing in the back of your head with a beer bottle or lead pipe, there’s not a lot you can do.

Even if you practice sparring against multiple oponents, there is no way to prepare yourself for being surprised by practicing in a controlled environment; you know it’s coming no matter how hard you try to be surprised.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=samurai6string Do you study Aikido, Red Beard? I’m rather sorry, but no matter who you are or what you know, if you are taken by surprise by some guy walking up behind you and smashing in the back of your head with a beer bottle or lead pipe, there’s not a lot you can do. [/quote 

No, I am not an Aikido student. I have only researched the history and techniques, seen some documentaries, that kind of thing. Sat in on a few classes.

I do realise that you can always be taken by suprise.

That is the main reason I think that staying focused and training yourself to recognise trouble and stay away is the best defense.

Quote:
Even if you practice sparring against multiple oponents, there is no way to prepare yourself for being surprised by practicing in a controlled environment; you know it’s coming no matter how hard you try to be surprised.

Training can be adapted to give good results. Otherwise police and military would get owned. Which they don’t.

But still, if they get suprised there is nothing much they can do.

This isn’t something I am ignorant of.

You cannot honestly say that training against Multiple Attackers is useless.

All that can be supported is that training is not the real thing. No matter how real you make it.

With your arguement against training as it stands, there is really no point in training at all. Because none of it is real.

That don’t make much sense.

It is unfortunately unlawfull and in Agreement with Zefff a rather primative situation to get involved in, when you go out and get in real fights. This IMHO would be the best advanced training a person could get.

My solution is to stay around people that have my back. People that I look out for and who look out for me. People that are not going to go looking for trouble.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

Quote:
I am positive that if you strictly practice the methods and techniques of Aikido under a respected and experienced teacher you will do well.

Notice here that I said: I am positive the person would do well. I didn’t say it would make them invincible.>

Post: Gazelle:

[quote=Robert_RedBeard With your arguement against training as it stands, there is really no point in training at all. Because none of it is real.

That don’t make much sense.[/quote 

I have to agree to some extent, Samurai, your wording, certainly on first reading does sound so, at least for every situation which would involve you being surprised, which, if you were being observant, technically, is unlikely to occur. Do martial artists come out better than other people without training in such circumstances? I have never heard any evidence either way. If you have had some experience and practice with certain techniques, both in their application to you, and you applying them to others, especcially in response to their application on you, you are going to be at more of an advantage than people who have not had such experience. Of course, this is all useless if someone comes and immediately incapacitates you (if this is the scenario your statement was referring to, then Samurai, i believe your statement is perfectly founded), if they don’t then, it would depend on the person the reaction that would follow, hopefully training would act to assist your response, which, i think it would. I think, though i haven’t done much in the way of self-defense, my experience (i can’t really comment on anything other than a personal sense) would improve my reaction in such a case.

The only time that it should be a total surprise is if you haven’t noticed the situation, and if you haven’t noticed the situation, generally, i would think it means that either your observation skills are poor, or you haven’t been using them.>

Post: samurai6string:

:roll: oh boy…

Quote:
FYI, you cannot graduate to Black Belt in Aikido without proving several times that you can take on 3 people attacking by suprise.

This is what I was reffering to, I was trying to politely call “bullshit” on you without having to come out and say it. I’m not taking issue with sparring multiple opponents, I’m taking issue with the “by surprise” bit. Basically, I think you are talking out of your ass. But, Bamboo knows much more about such matters in Aikido then I do.

I then said what I did about getting your head bashed in by a random attacker to try and show what I meant. I never said anything about training being ineffective and stupid, obviously, if I held that opinion wtf would I be doing here? Where’s TTT when you need him?

Edit: And on another note, I know what you are trying to say about police and military training to adapt to situations……..but we have beat the hell out of the dead horse that is the effectiveness of military combatives as they are taught in the Marines, et al.>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
FYI, you cannot graduate to Black Belt in Aikido without proving several times that you can take on 3 people attacking by suprise

The three person randori is infact a part of both ikkyu and shodan testing, the thing is though, its not in any way meant to actually simulate real attacks or how you would handle them. Multiple person randori in aikido, (when the person is not fooling themselves) is meant to demonstrate timing, movement and spatial awareness.
My test involved one on one freestyle with actual attacks, plus lots of stylized “demos” to show I knew actual technique.

Easily the hardest part of my black belt test was when the person grading me asked for kendo shinai and told the 4th dan to “hit that boy, make him feel it”.

-bamboo>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=bamboo 
Quote:
FYI, you cannot graduate to Black Belt in Aikido without proving several times that you can take on 3 people attacking by suprise

The three person randori is infact a part of both ikkyu and shodan testing, the thing is though, its not in any way meant to actually simulate real attacks or how you would handle them. Multiple person randori in aikido, (when the person is not fooling themselves) is meant to demonstrate timing, movement and spatial awareness.
My test involved one on one freestyle with actual attacks, plus lots of stylized “demos” to show I knew actual technique.

Easily the hardest part of my black belt test was when the person grading me asked for kendo shinai and told the 4th dan to “hit that boy, make him feel it”.

-bamboo[/quote 

Thank you for clearing up any of my inaccuracies.

In the documentary I watched on the three man test, they tried to simulate suprise as much as they could in the gym environment. I am not trying to say that it was a successful attempt at realism. Because it was still just three guys in a gym attacking a guy that knew it was coming sooner or later.

So, as someone mentioned earlier, it is not really by suprise.

I have seen some video of Krav Maga training that was dealing with suprise attacks. I do think they do a good job of making it realistic.

One drill I saw had the students pushing through a crowd of fleeing people and one or two of the fleeing people would randomly attack the students. I think it was a police group training in the video. But I think it looked like a very effective way to train one’s awareness and simulate suprise attacks.

No, I am not talking out my ass, Samurai. I was only trying to point out what I thought was silly about the arguement you put out about training not being the real deal, so it would be ineffective.

I could be wrong about what you were trying to express.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=samurai6string :roll: oh boy…

Quote:
FYI, you cannot graduate to Black Belt in Aikido without proving several times that you can take on 3 people attacking by suprise.

This is what I was reffering to, I was trying to politely call “bullshit” on you without having to come out and say it. I’m not taking issue with sparring multiple opponents, I’m taking issue with the “by surprise” bit. Basically, I think you are talking out of your ass. But, Bamboo knows much more about such matters in Aikido then I do.

I then said what I did about getting your head bashed in by a random attacker to try and show what I meant. I never said anything about training being ineffective and stupid, obviously, if I held that opinion wtf would I be doing here? Where’s TTT when you need him?

Edit: And on another note, I know what you are trying to say about police and military training to adapt to situations……..but we have beat the hell out of the dead horse that is the effectiveness of military combatives as they are taught in the Marines, et al.[/quote 

I meant no harm. And I was not trying to put words in your mouth.

Sorry if it may have seemed that way. It’s tough to be clear through plain old text.>

Post: Gazelle:

Hope you don’t mind my asking Robert, you said you learned about some of the history and philosphy and such of aikido, even sat in on a few classes, and i think you mentioned somewhere else you spoke about having/getting some videos (i could be wrong) and books. What you have said so far leads me to believe that you are studying martial arts, more than practicing it, almost as if you are looking into loads of options before ‘commiting’ yourself (not that i am suggesting that you are, it is just, that the little you have wrote, that is one impression that comes accross). If this is so, why? Why not just ‘leap in’ and properly try practicing one?>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=Gazelle Hope you don’t mind my asking Robert, you said you learned about some of the history and philosphy and such of aikido, even sat in on a few classes, and i think you mentioned somewhere else you spoke about having/getting some videos (i could be wrong) and books. What you have said so far leads me to believe that you are studying martial arts, more than practicing it, almost as if you are looking into loads of options before ‘commiting’ yourself (not that i am suggesting that you are, it is just, that the little you have wrote, that is one impression that comes accross). If this is so, why? Why not just ‘leap in’ and properly try practicing one?[/quote 

Your intuition has served you well for the most part. Except that I have practiced a martial art.

I trained and still do train with a student of Robert Bussey. I have not actively practiced this form of training in many years though.

It was RBWI and Stephen Hayes that got me onto discovering as much as I can about other Martial Arts.

I have not had the money to get paid training beyond using my money in junction with my instructor to rent space for us to practice and equipment to practice.

For example, I would love to take Krav Maga. But I cannot afford the hefty price tag.

The greater part of my experience has been fighting for real and training hard, when I can, on techniques that I have discovered through my research.

I have occasionally put on gloves and brawled with people that wanted to know what it was like to fight someone that wasn’t afraid to hit them. I have fought and I have run. When it was appropriate for each. I have been suprised only three times. I made my way out of each situation with success.

I hate fighting beleive it or not. Real Fighting. I also hate doing it for bragging rights or prizes. Practice is practice though. I don’t mind fighting there. It’s to help build yourself safely.

My personal opinion is that most people need little training.

The basic punches, kicks, stomps, elbows and avoiding the takedown being the most important. After that one should discover what they can about other systems and their techniques. IMHO, the best way to learn how to defend against techniques is to have them used on you. LOL.

This means fighting and training. The repetition of the techniques in training is very important. But real life experience with techniques on the street is much more valuable in the long run. If you live that long.

Perhaps the world has passed the time when this is possible. But emersion or getting your ass kick teaches you the best.

In otherwords I have stuck more to fighting only when I had no other option. When I was cornered or ambushed. I have had my teeth loosened and broken. Ribs cracked up, feet smashed and even hit by a car once when a guy tried to run me over.

I’m not trying to be a bad ass these days. But in my younger years I was very adventurous. I understand the danger I was in now. I recognize that I was putting myself in grave danger some times for fun and that it was very stupid of me.

But I have learned a lot. And I have picked up a few tips and tricks along the way.

I have also been rightfully skeptical of Martial Arts Schools IMHO. A lot of money at stake. Money I need to take care of kids and family. If I could spend time working for my training it would be kick ass. But no such luck.>

Post: samurai6string:

Bamboo> We do randori in my Jujustu classes, that’s why I had to throw in the two cents about it not being by surprise.

Red> Didn’t mean to jump your case, no hard feelings, I just kind of got the same impression that you had read more about it than you had participated in.>

Post: angryrocker4:

How much did you train with Stephen Hayes? Curious about the toshindo thing. In the Bujinkan myself with two great instructors. Also do the MMA thing to get full contact experience with my Taijutsu and its excellent, the gloves kill alot of my options, but I work around that.>

Post: Gazelle:

Robert, i’m glad you went passed that stage!>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=angryrocker4 How much did you train with Stephen Hayes? Curious about the toshindo thing. In the Bujinkan myself with two great instructors. Also do the MMA thing to get full contact experience with my Taijutsu and its excellent, the gloves kill alot of my options, but I work around that.[/quote 

I did not train with Mr. Hayes. My instructor has in the past but not me personally.

Sorry if what I posted made it seem that way.

I have read a lot of Mr. Hayes’ material and such. But sadly no training.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=Gazelle Robert, i’m glad you went passed that stage![/quote 

Me too.

Now I have a son to get past that stage. LOL!>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

I am working on transcribing a chapter intro from Hayse that has a lot of bearing on what we have talked about.

I will be posting it later.

Stay tuned.>

Post: samurai6string:

I’m actually not too far (hour and a half maybe) from Akron, OH. Last I heard Hayes had a school there, wish I had some free time and cheap gas on my hands… :cry:>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=samurai6string I’m actually not too far (hour and a half maybe) from Akron, OH. Last I heard Hayes had a school there, wish I had some free time and cheap gas on my hands… :cry:[/quote 

He runs training halls called Quest Centers around the counry and the world I think.

While my instructor was deployed in florida for the last couple years he was taking classes at the local Quest Center.

Can always write to Shadows of Iga and find out.

Shadows of Iga Society
PO Box 291947
Kettering, OH
45429-0947

I think this is current. Google it.

Here is the except I posted of his opinion on how to learn to fight.

http://www.fightauthority.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=40822#40822>

Post: bamboo:

Isn’t Hayes some sort of notorious ninja fraud?>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=bamboo Isn’t Hayes some sort of notorious ninja fraud?[/quote 

WOW, where is this coming from?

Is Dr. Hatsumi a fraud too?

Instead of speculatory questions, can you provide evidence?

Frank Dux is a ninja fraud. Ashida Kim is too. But I have heard no such thing about Mr. Hayes, ever.>

Post: bamboo:

Note the question mark in the quote you posted as written by me.

No accusation, it was a question.

I’m taking by your surprised and alarmed response that he indeed is not a fraud?

-bamboo>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=bamboo Note the question mark in the quote you posted as written by me.

No accusation, it was a question.

I’m taking by your surprised and alarmed response that he indeed is not a fraud?

-bamboo[/quote 

Stephen Hayes is Hatsumi’s senior student. Take that how you will buddy :wink:>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=bamboo Note the question mark in the quote you posted as written by me.

No accusation, it was a question.

I’m taking by your surprised and alarmed response that he indeed is not a fraud?

-bamboo[/quote 

You take it right. Hayes has been around for many decades and does very good work.

Everything I have ever seen from him has been high end and well produced.>

Post: Gazelle:

I thought Gas was cheap in US.>

Post: Hengest:

Quote:
Isn’t Hayes some sort of notorious ninja fraud?

I wouldn’t say a fraud exactly. Most of the criticism he attracts stems from the fact that, when he returned to the US at the beginning of the “ninja boom” and was in every MA magazine, peddling his books and videos and claiming to be the West’s foremost expert on ninjutsu, he had actually only attained a very low rank from Hatsumi; if memory serves me correctly, I think he was only a shodan. He did receive his 10th dan in 1993, but, to be honest, so did a lot of people.

Despite Hayes old claims to the contrary, he wasn’t Hatsumi’s first western pupil, nor was he ever Hatsumi’s most senior student. Both those honours went to Israeli Doron Navon in the early days.

I wouldn’t be so bold as to call Hatsumi a fraud either but it’s safe to say that, in his native Japan, he’s not thought of too highly by fellow MAists. The koryu community don’t want anything to do with him, yet, at the same time, Hatsumi’s main rival and ex-student Shoto Tanemura is a regular demonstrator at enbu taikai. It could, of course, all be a simple matter of politics but, at the end of the day, who knows.>

Post: samurai6string:

it’s cheaper here than in Europe, but in four years it has went from $1.75 a gallon to $3.05 a gallon. That’s just screwy. :evil: it went up more in 4 years than in the past 20.
About two or three years ago, all the gas stations had to get rid of their giant signs that show prices because none of them were made to go over the number 1 in the dollars place. 8O :cry:>

Post: zefff:

Dude we pay the equivalent of over 6 US dollars a gallon right now…and they tell us its going to rise again. :evil:>

Post: samurai6string:

we only import about 60% of our oil, we love gas over here, how much of your cost of gas is in taxes? about 80 cents on a gallon here.>

Post: Gazelle:

It’s really jumped up in Cyprus over that period too.

I don’t exactly know what percentage of the fuel is tax, however, according to one article dated 2 years ago it was 75%, Zefff will probably be able to give you a more reliable and up to date value!

He’s a general comparison chart from 2005, if your interested…

http://www.theaa.com/onlinenews/allaboutcars/fuel/2005/February2005.doc

Sorry, you’ll have to copy and paste the address.>

Post: GrappleToWin:

id say if u got a weapon use it, if they rush in kick out knee caps. one on one fights are a lil diffrent but multiple on one are fuckin deadly u do everything in ur power, bite ,scratch, scream, spit, eye gouge, fish hook, groin kicks… ANYTHING YOU CAN DO TO SURVIVE!

shit u prlly got car keys on u if ur old enough to drive, use them stabs at the soft tissue areas like the throat, eyes, stomach>

Post: Bloodybirds:

First, if one has to fight against multiple opponents, try to find a back wall or back drop as this will remove 180 degrees of 360 one would have to cover. Second, find out who the leader of the pack is and attack and disperse him with quickness and nastiness to intimidate the others….if the others are still there, find one to use as a shield under control and maneuver to escape. Under no circumstances should one try to “win”!!! Get out alive and save the ego for another day…what if your family is with you? As far as the dim mak, chi, etc., we have had this discussion on another forum previously. Chinese kung fu is designed for multiple opponents as no form, at least in the Northern styles, should fight less than three people. However, the flaw of the art and most arts are instructors who do not translate or train their students in how to extract data from the software (forms) and apply on the hardware to produce a cogent report (protect oneself). In true Hong Kong fashion, one could not move on to the next form until one could show the master his perception of the techniques incorporated into the forms, extract them, reverse them as counters, etc. And then, in the most important step, take the techniques and make them natural!!! Like everything else, only through repetitive training and practice, will the body and mind be instinctual enough. This means, no matter what style, that one must train against 3 or more opponents attacking full bore in the class and outside to simulate flight/fight conditions. Take the practice once a week to a park, or an outside environment, form a circle without pads, and have 2-4 classmates attack spontaneously or all at once while the one in the center defends.

The older masters from 200 years ago could do things described like true dim mak, etc, but our culture would not permit the current training or 12 hours a day sweating blood to develop the iron skin, dim mak, or iron body previously mentioned. These items did exist in history, but today maybe .5% of masters/disciples understand the concepts or know how to apply!!! I have been in CMA for almost 30 years and I understand fa jing, silk reeling, pressure point and cavity strikes, but there is nothing mysterious about them. The body has certain points below the bone/sinew structure (called organs and other soft tissue like tendons) that can be attacked for perm damage or mortal damage. But, this is not mysterious, one must be learned in what those points are.

Well, back to my Friday Kung Fu theatre as I prepare to go home for the weekend to Houston with 3 weeks to go.>

Post: Gazelle:

I guess he found it! And a great post it was too.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=GrappleToWin id say if u got a weapon use it, if they rush in kick out knee caps. one on one fights are a lil diffrent but multiple on one are fuckin deadly u do everything in ur power, bite ,scratch, scream, spit, eye gouge, fish hook, groin kicks… ANYTHING YOU CAN DO TO SURVIVE!

shit u prlly got car keys on u if ur old enough to drive, use them stabs at the soft tissue areas like the throat, eyes, stomach[/quote 

I kinda feel stupid for not mentioning this sooner.

But always remember that Multiple attackers gives you disparity of force as a reason for self defense actions.

In most places, disparity of force = deadly force.

So if they come at you as a group, it is a deadly attack. Your life is in danger and you should act according to your personal action plan for such a situation.

So yes, use a weapon if you carry. Find one and use it if you can.>

Post: zefff:

what is the difference between a deadly attack and not so deadly attack?>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=zefff what is the difference between a deadly attack and not so deadly attack?[/quote 

I wasn’t addressing that.

IMHO, if anyone attacks me I should be able to deal out punishment.

But what use is protecting your life and honor just to go to jail and have it taken by force from the deranged inmates.

I for one do not want to test my skill that bad. So I would like to stay within the limits of the law.

And the law says they must present disparity of force for you to be justified in a deadly response.

Mulitiple attacker = dispartity of force

That’s all.

All attacks have the potential to be deadly. But the law don’t give exemptions for that.>

Post: zefff:

Protect your honour? What do you mean by that? What is honour to you?>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=zefff Protect your honour? What do you mean by that? What is honour to you?[/quote 

Has the definition of honor changed?

My honor would be my word for starters. If I say I will protect some one and they get attacked, by protecting them I am protecting my honor.

And for a woman, I would say protecting her honor would be fighting against rape. I think Deadly Force is justified in cases of rape.

If it is not legal, to kill to defend a womans honor, it should be.>

Post: angryrocker4:

Honor is up to the individual, Webster cannot define it.

As a “pagan” (viking), I have completely different ideas as to what honor means from what the 3 main religions may have.>

Post: Gazelle:

Care to share?>

Post: zefff:

[quote=Robert_RedBeard [quote=zefff Protect your honour? What do you mean by that? What is honour to you?[/quote 

Has the definition of honor changed?

My honor would be my word for starters. If I say I will protect some one and they get attacked, by protecting them I am protecting my honor.

And for a woman, I would say protecting her honor would be fighting against rape. I think Deadly Force is justified in cases of rape.

If it is not legal, to kill to defend a womans honor, it should be.[/quote 

So you would be defending against your shame and also should your ‘woman’ be shamed if raped?

Interesting, sounds like a cultural thing I guess. I see honour as an egotistical device that promotes division (similar to pride) because to say you have honour is to say others do not.

Justice is another word we attach to protection but then that is a notion that is imposed on the individual by society.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=zefff [quote=Robert_RedBeard [quote=zefff Protect your honour? What do you mean by that? What is honour to you?[/quote 

Has the definition of honor changed?

My honor would be my word for starters. If I say I will protect some one and they get attacked, by protecting them I am protecting my honor.

And for a woman, I would say protecting her honor would be fighting against rape. I think Deadly Force is justified in cases of rape.

If it is not legal, to kill to defend a womans honor, it should be.[/quote 

So you would be defending against your shame and also should your ‘woman’ be shamed if raped?

Interesting, sounds like a cultural thing I guess. I see honour as an egotistical device that promotes division (similar to pride) because to say you have honour is to say others do not.

Justice is another word we attach to protection but then that is a notion that is imposed on the individual by society.[/quote 

Hey, call it what you like. But there is no division in pride or honor that isn’t already there without the labels. Just because we choose not to label something doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

If you have accomplished and someone else has not, that is a division. Are we going to stop giving credit where it is due so less accomplished people don’t feel shame?

IMHO, No.

Labels don’t divide, they define.>

Post: Gazelle:

Honour is linked and tends to be associated with respect and integrity. Are you saying that when a woman is raped they are less respectful than someone who has not? I’m sorry, it’s just ‘honour’ to my current understanding has a tendancy to be used in the contexts mentioned, but i also realise that people can mean other things besides it.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=Gazelle Honour is linked and tends to be associated with respect and integrity. Are you saying that when a woman is raped they are less respectful than someone who has not? I’m sorry, it’s just ‘honour’ to my current understanding has a tendancy to be used in the contexts mentioned, but i also realise that people can mean other things besides it.[/quote 

I do not mean that the woman has become disrespectful. But she is being fundementally disrespected. In the worse way I could think of. It must be horrific. Whether she chooses to defend herself is her choice too. No need to get yourself killed over it if you don’t feel that strongly about it, IMHO.

I think women that have been put through such terror should be treated gently and respectfully. I have no reason to act otherwise.>

Post: Gazelle:

i see. Phew, i really didn’t want to get into that arguement!>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=Gazelle i see. Phew, i really didn’t want to get into that arguement![/quote 

And you never will with me.>

Post: LeiQuan:

[quote=”Sparky-bjj” What do you guys think is a great martial art against multiple opponents? I personally think there isn’t a martial art that learns you to effectively defend against multiple opponents.

I live in Brisbane, Australia. One of my friends says that his kung fu club do nothing other than train against multiple opponents. Not just a series of individual assailants one at a time, but 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 all at once. Sometimes there are rules and sometimes there are absolutely no rules – full contact, eye gouging, anything. This depends on the level and on whether they are training something particular or testing their training. They also train one on one and do strength exercises and drills and forms but they always keep in mind how the need to defend against multiple attackers changes their training. Apparently you don’t get exposed to the more hardcore multiple attacker exercises until you’ve been there a couple of years, depending on your progress, but all the beginner exercises are supposed to be fully consistent with how you have to operate in a multiple attacker situation. He reckons that the main thing is to keep moving, keep awareness, never allow anyone to grab you or wrestle you, never try to grab or wrestle anyone else and never, ever go to the ground. You may be able to wrestle one guy, but you can’t wrestle a crowd. You have to take the initiative and learn the psychology of group attacks. Apparently there is a lot of strategy. The goal is always survival and they never train for competition as they think that sort of training leads to bad habits in a realistic survival situation. They are big on anti-ego stuff. My friend reckons that the only fight he is ever likely to get in is one with multiple attackers wishing to do him serious harm as nearly all 1-1 fights are about ego and you can almost always avoid them. It takes two to tango. They are a pretty traditional style I think. Their master did something like Tong Long. But they have this reality based thing and so they only train stuff that they have tested in the group attack situations. They train out at the The University of Queenlsand I think. Maybe these guys have the answers to the question in this thread.>

Post: Exo:

The best way to learn to fight multiple opponents is to be in a real fight against multiple opponents. I was at a party with my cousin and got jumped. My cousin didn’t know I was the one getting jumped and did’nt even help me. I learned, 1 don’t try to grapple. 2 If it’s dark like it was when I got jumped don’t just start swinging more people will end up jumping. 3 If you end up on the ground just cover up you won’t get back up unless they let you up.I came out with acute iritis, not sure if that’s the actual term but basically eye damage, and some swelling on my head and face.>

Post: Gazelle:

[quote=”LeiQuan” The goal is always survival and they never train for competition as they think that sort of training leads to bad habits in a realistic survival situation. They are big on anti-ego stuff. My friend reckons that the only fight he is ever likely to get in is one with multiple attackers wishing to do him serious harm as nearly all 1-1 fights are about ego and you can almost always avoid them. It takes two to tango. [quote 

I never thought of that before. Thank you!>

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