How Do You Prepare Yourself Mentally For A Fight?

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How Do You Prepare Yourself Mentally For A Fight?
Original Poster: vladimir
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 24-05-2006, 09:26

Orginal Post: vladimir: What do you do so your prepared for a fight mentally?

Post: Oh:

To be honest vladimir. The only way to prepare for a fight is to not be afraid to hit the other person. Get into the mindset by making up bullshit about the enemy then unleash!>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

If you have time to prepare for a fight, then the situation doesn’t belong under the hand to hand forum heading.

But in general, one should meditate for at least three hours on all of the horrible ways one can die at the hands of the enemy: being torn apart by blades, being riddled with bullets, having bones broken to splinters, being suffocated, having one’s face pummelled until the brain gives up trying to run the body, etc.

When I have been fixated on my own death, I have always had the focus and resolve to take the initiative and to not hold back. It makes one not care any longer about dying or even being harmed and aids one’s drive to violence.>

Post: wingchun_jeetkunedo:

you should begin with calming you self RELAXING yourslef make you limbs go limp.
take nice deep breaths and imagine your slef in the fight (close your eyes if you have to) imagine your self in the fight coming up imagine your opponent standing there and HIT OUT your fisrt movment with showing the opponent that your goin to do somthing, concentrate on what your next movement should be.
when you have filled your mind with possibilties, different ranges of attack in your mind then try them out
one you will be calm two through meditation your will have concentrated on hitting first and with out showing your moves before you act on them you will be ready for anything.>

Post: sib3rian:

just concentrate on the fight and try to imagine how you will attack and stay calm. try psychological attacks on him. like getting in agressice ma position and smile a bit :D thats my method. be confident to beat up your enemy up!>

Post: 1bloKO:

i think the best way to prepare for a fight is to get it in your head that if you dont strike first that your opponent will…………………then give them a shot right to the chinstrap region

skip the b/s beeftalk because if you surprise him your prolly gonna win the fight>

Post: goongaloonga:

exactly what 1bloKO said, avoid the bullshit bully talk, first try to talk your way out of it, and usually after the b/s talk some shoving startds, don’t be the first to shove, wait for the other guy to shove and then don’t shove back, just hit him, and some styles have great techniques off of a push, only strike first if you absolutely have to, otherwise if at all possible just be aready for what’s coming and have your hands up, because that way it looks like you don’t want trouble, but if you hit first you’ll be screwed in court, and I’m not talking about hitting after the push, but just hitting him when he starts bullshitting you>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=goongaloonga exactly what 1bloKO said, avoid the bullshit bully talk, first try to talk your way out of it, and usually after the b/s talk some shoving startds, don’t be the first to shove, wait for the other guy to shove and then don’t shove back, just hit him, and some styles have great techniques off of a push, only strike first if you absolutely have to, otherwise if at all possible just be aready for what’s coming and have your hands up, because that way it looks like you don’t want trouble, but if you hit first you’ll be screwed in court, and I’m not talking about hitting after the push, but just hitting him when he starts bullshitting you[/quote 

Hey dipshit, what about when they don’t worry about talk and just straight up jack you in the face? What about when instead of starting to shove you, they pull out a semiauto?

Don’t try to sound wise. It doesn’t suit you. If you’re going into combat, you don’t need to worry about laws and talk, you need to worry about keeping your vitals intact.>

Post: goongaloonga:

whatever keyboard blackbelt>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

Great attempt at proving your point. You did a good job of making me look like an idiot.

Except for that you didn’t. Get a life and stop trolling.>

Post: goongaloonga:

you get a life Mr. 4,231 posts, you joined on march 10, and it’s the 16, so it’s been about 4 months, I joined on June 8, so it’s been about a month and a half, I have 52 posts in that time period, 1 1/2 + 1 1/2 = 3, so in a 3 months time period I would have 104 posts (52+52), plus another 1 1/2 months would be 4 1/2 months, that would put me here half a month longer than you and I’d only have 156 posts, you need to spend more time training and less time in the forums, and you probably don’t even train at all, I train for a minimum of 1 hour 6 days a week, I have a beautiful fiance, we will have been together for a year and four months coming up on the 18, and I’m working on getting a scholorship from the government, so you’re the one who needs to get a life, you’re not even a real martial artist, because a martial artist wouldn’t make rude comments, a martial artist would respect everyone’s point of view and respect what they have to say and not think that their way is better, you obviously take this place way too seriously, I just come here for fun and to mess around, because there might be a few people here like me who actually train and are in martial arts, but the majority are just keyboard warriors who have nothing better to do than read articles by other keyboard warriors and make fun of them for what they have to say>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=goongaloonga you get a life Mr. 4,231 posts, you joined on march 10, [/quote 
Actually, I joined when this site first opened around the new year 2002. The reason it says I joined March 10th is because that’s the last time Matt updated the forum software and re-registered everyone. Nice try, but you failed.

Quote:
I train for a minimum of 1 hour 6 days a week, I have a beautiful fiance, we will have been together for a year and four months coming up on the 18,

Fantastic. How does that make anything you posted here – or anywhere else for that matter – more correct? That’s right, it doesn’t.

Quote:
a martial artist wouldn’t make rude comments, a martial artist would respect everyone’s point of view and respect what they have to say and not think that their way is better,

You really think that? The next time you go and train for a full hour (woot, that’s dedication right there) tell your instructor that you think the kick technique he just showed you isn’t worth training and ask him to show you something else. I bet he won’t be too happy. Or, for that matter, go up a pro fighter (you do know the guys that do martial arts professionally, right) that you think they don’t know anything about fighting that you don’t and they have to respect your views, despite the relative inexeprience you have. I bet they laugh at you. Maybe you need to redefine what you think a martial artist is.

Quote:
I just come here for fun and to mess around, because there might be a few people here like me who actually train and are in martial arts, but the majority are just keyboard warriors who have nothing better to do than read articles by other keyboard warriors and make fun of them for what they have to say

Or, maybe it’s that when a 13 year old karateka steps on the forum and reads some ignorant shit posted by people like you and take it for truth they go out in the world and get hurt. Although I doubt anyone here would come under fire for it, it is technically our liability if such an occurance happens, and morally I’m not comfortable with it. So, screw around all you like, but yes this is serious discussion. We have honest students asking us to deal with muggers, not because they think that’s a fun topic to discuss but because getting mugged is a real problem. We can’t have people like you just messing around and having fun when people’s wellbeing is on the line.

Shut your mouth and grow up. You obviously never thought about life beyond your own doorstep.>

Post: zefff:

Hahahaa!!! Yeah whatever Des you keyboard blackbelt! :D …ahh shit thats made my birthday weekedn trhats has! :) pure class.>

Post: patescobar:

you just have to go into a fight not giving a fuck. if you are crazy and more relentless in your mind as you are with your hands its half the battle. your body only takes you so far when it comes to fighting, most of it after that is mentality. you just have to be the one that knows he is going to win. even if i fight guys i know can kick my ass, when im fighting i think that im tougher and i can win. and i do….>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=patescobar you just have to go into a fight not giving a fuck. if you are crazy and more relentless in your mind as you are with your hands its half the battle. your body only takes you so far when it comes to fighting, most of it after that is mentality. you just have to be the one that knows he is going to win. even if i fight guys i know can kick my ass, when im fighting i think that im tougher and i can win. and i do….[/quote 

I’m suddenly reminded of the Charge of the Light Brigade.>

Post: XxAfGzFiNeSs1xX:

LoL YeRR HiT Me Upp>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

Is your name seriously “Fag’s Finesse” or am messed in the head?>

Post: shaggydog:

I am sorry tickle but i am with goongaloonga on this, martial arts is about respect, not violence. you shouldnt be doin martial arts if all you wanna do is beat ppl up.>

Post: zefff:

WTF????

I want to say summat but I will leave shaggydog for Des to deal with him self :D>

Post: goongaloonga:

shaggydog- what I said about martial arts being about respect and what not, that’s true, but most of what I said before…..the stupid stuff……I was just goofing around, and for those who don’t know that, I was just messing around, and I’m sorry for taking it too far and joking about something in a serious post>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=”shaggydog” I am sorry tickle but i am with goongaloonga on this, martial arts is about respect, not violence. you shouldnt be doin martial arts if all you wanna do is beat ppl up.[/quote

Okay, what is ‘martial?’ Something that is related to war, combat and strife. What is an ‘art?’ Something that is expressed by the individual.
What is a ‘martial art?’ An individual’s expression of how combat should be carried out.

Where in that definition does respect enter the picture? Where in that definition does “beating people up” leave it?

If you go to train so that you can bow, scrape and call everyone you meet, “sir,” then you are wasting your time and money. You could be respectful of others anyway, without the martial arts. Also, it’s good to know that you spent countless hours perfecting body motions designed with full intent to cause other people harm, but you feel that violence is a bad thing.

Everyone who thinks like shaggydog – lurkers, other regulars, totally new people alike – remove your craniums from your rectums and see the light of the real world. The martial arts, since their birth in the cradles of civilization, were intended to be a means to an end, and that end was always known to be bloody.>

Post: bamboo:

This discussion has taken a real turn, an intersesting one at that.

Since were in the ” H2H Combat / Real Fighting ” forum, I would have to assume that “respect and civility” would have left the picture since the confrontation or “de-ai” has arrived.

The question I would like to ask our newcomer is “why does martial arts = respect” in your mind”?

I had a conversation a few years back with an older gentleman that had been in the arts for over 45 years and was very much “old school”. When the question of respect in the martial arts came up he said something quite interesting- “Respect in the martial arts was, in the old days,not about politess, you respected a man because he could kill you”.

I practice the “peaceful” art yet have used it to a violent end in a real confrontation. I did not disrespect my attacker, he did so by initiating the attack, I had an adrenyline dump and training took over. Where I train we respect eachother both out of civility and because it helps noone to be an ass. We respect eachothers’ boundries, we don’t cross the line.
Noone has delusions of “teh d3adly”, we all know where eachother stands in the invisible heirarchy that exists in most “non competitive” dojos.

To me, “respect” is a byproduct of training and should not be mistaken for the training itself. I am civil and compassionate to all, but there is a line and it can be crossed.

-bamboo>

Post: km:

a good martial artist never fights, he just defend him self against some kind of strikes, the people who accept the fight are not martial artists, but they are just fighters wich is a completly different thing..don’t you all agree?????>

Post: km:

for exemple , if somebody jump on me with a knife and i knock him out ,it was not a fight, but just a self defense action, that’s why people want to learn marcial arts, and if they fust want to fight, practice just fight, like boxing or kick boxing, or somehting like that…>

Post: bamboo:

Km:
Quote:
a good martial artist never fights, he just defend him self against some kind of strikes, the people who accept the fight are not martial artists, but they are just fighters wich is a completly different thing..don’t you all agree?????

You described a good person, not a good martial artist IMHO.

People come to the arts for different reasons. Some enjoy confrontation and are happy to “accept” a match, others will not. Ex- I will happily face off in the dojo with anyone as long as its in the spirit of learning. What is being “learned” is often debatable. My teacher, not a chance. He did it in his youth and is no longer interested.

Is one less than the other? I don’t believe so.

Romantic notions aside, martial arts are a fancy name for a set of techniques usualy backed by a specific philosophy and approach.

-bamboo>

Post: angryrocker4:

What about samurai then? If those guys werent MAists I dont know who would be.>

Post: bouncer99:

To all the guys who are touting respect and honour and civility, please take a look at the forum you are in. REAL COMBAT. We dont live in a culture where one can afford to be civil and respectful of ones opponents. I dont go around picking fights, but if some ass with a chip on his shoulder takes a swing at me, I put him down. That doesnt mean hit him once and wait and see if he gets back up to try again. I hit him, and tell him to stay down. If he moves to get back up, he gets some more. When I used to box, we didnt take this approach because it was a sport with clearly defined rules and weapons. If I’m outside the bar and some guy I’ve just put down is getting up, unless I can see his hands I dont know if hes reaching for a knife, a gun, or whatever. Honour and respect are not powerful enough motivations for me to risk my life over. The days when two guys could have a go around and walk away with only a kicked ass are long over. I would rather be alive and have people say about me, “Dont pick a fight with him, he’ll kick your ass and wont stop till you’re good and hurt” then be dead and have people say, “Well he did give the guy a hand getting up, so he really showed alot of respect before that guy pulled the shank out of his pocket and stabbed him to death.” If your opponent is clear headed enough to get back onto his feet, he can still attack you, and he can still understand when you say, “Stay down, motherfucker”>

Post: shurite44:

This is my definition of a martial art, I have posted this one time before. You will notice it does not mention respect, fighting, or self protection. Anyone with any attitude can practice martial arts, a good guy or a thug. I also find it helpful to divide encounters into three different categories, I do this because you can tailor your training for what you want to do. Fighting, Sport fighting, and self protection. The primary difference is one of choice. If you fight, or sport fight you had a choice weather you want to participate. Self protection means you are attacked usually without notice and against your will.

“A combat technique that would be practiced in a systematic manner by an organized group, generally considered to be unarmed and from Asia. This technique or group of techniques would no longer be common in nature, but are sophisticated enough to be considered at the level of art. “ :)>

Post: Twitch:

[quote=Tease T Tickle The martial arts, since their birth in the cradles of civilization, were intended to be a means to an end, and that end was always known to be bloody.[/quote 

Didn’t it say in the art of war to conquer without fighting if possible? I guess that’s because if you fight for too long, things are going to get worse.

Just a little advice, respecting your enemy, no matter how much of a jerk they may be, can go a long way. If you do something like add insult to injury, they’ll feel vengful and will then have a vendetta, which by itself is cause for concern no matter who you are or what you can do. If you have to beat someone up, beat them up, don’t beat them down.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Twitch Didn’t it say in the art of war to conquer without fighting if possible? I guess that’s because if you fight for too long, things are going to get worse.[/quote 
Do you think that meant diplomacy or massacre? To conquer without fighting is to assert power over another without their resistance. The Art of War was written by, for and about killers. Don’t ever mistake that point.

Quote:
Just a little advice, respecting your enemy, no matter how much of a jerk they may be, can go a long way. If you do something like add insult to injury, they’ll feel vengful and will then have a vendetta, which by itself is cause for concern no matter who you are or what you can do. If you have to beat someone up, beat them up, don’t beat them down.

You also avoid retaliation by killing them. Don’t beat them up, beat them to death.>

Post: JC1007:

[quote=Tease T Tickle You also avoid retaliation by killing them. Don’t beat them up, beat them to death.[/quote 

You at least avoid retaliation by that person. Of course you have to worry about his partners. :wink:

Getting back on topic for a moment, I start mentally preparing myself for a fight as soon as I decide to initiate contact with someone or if I’m not working and just out and about, as I’m approaching people or people are approaching me. I start the game by analyzing angles of attack, what’s their posture compared to mine, how will the have to move in order to launch an attack, how’s my distance in relation to the other person, if I have to counter-attack, what are my most probable target zones, do I go for a control hold or take-down or do I go for an attack designed to disable the other person, etc. Even if the contact is going well, I continue the thought process. If his or her posture changes, people walk up, etc. then my tactics change, my positioning may change and so on.

I believe in honor and respect and try and conduct myself accordingly, however, when the fight starts there is only one over-riding thought, survival. Its me or him and I’m going home tonight so he’s going down.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=JC1007 [quote=Tease T Tickle You also avoid retaliation by killing them. Don’t beat them up, beat them to death.[/quote 

You at least avoid retaliation by that person. Of course you have to worry about his partners. :wink: [/quote 
Kill them, too. The Vikings had it right. Conquer an area, kill all the men, rape all the women, burn all the homes, steal all the useable stuff.

Quote:
I believe in honor and respect and try and conduct myself accordingly

Why?

Quote:
however, when the fight starts there is only one over-riding thought, survival. Its me or him and I’m going home tonight so he’s going down.

Don’t think survival, because you have to die sometime. Think dominance.>

Post: JC1007:

Why? Because I choose to. Why else do people do things? :) That’s the short version. I can explain the longer reason if you want.

[quote=Tease T Tickle 
Don’t think survival, because you have to die sometime. Think dominance.[/quote 

I’ll dwell on that for a bit. I can see your point but I need to mull it over.>

Post: zefff:

[quote=JC1007 

[quote=Tease T Tickle 
Don’t think survival, because you have to die sometime. Think dominance.[/quote 

I’ll dwell on that for a bit. I can see your point but I need to mull it over.[/quote 

Thats how you become a legend. But you can dominate in ways other than physical.>

Post: animex:

before a fight, never lose control and get angry cuz then you wont even kno whats goin on and your probably end up on the ground, but ALWAYS REALIZE WHAtS GOING ON THATS KEY! and keep and eye on his movement>

Post: zed:

i learned MA (still am) so i wouldnt have to scrap out fight everyone. i learn so i dont have to fight everyone. 90% of fights i have been in since i’ve been studying stop before they get all out of hand because of that…..for all those i read typing out how they want to kill all…..wow…..man i mean if thats all you want to do they just go learn how to use guns really well, much easier and less time consuming. to me if i get hit all thoughts go out the window and my body takes over…..because imho if i have to think about every move im gonna do ill beat myself ,be too slow, and prove that i need to go back to class. thats my opinion…..and u know about that, they are like assholes, everyones has one and they all stink……oh well it works for me and thats all that matters. if i showed this to my sifu he’d have a heart attack…lol>

Post: zefff:

they most likely already do know how to use and maintain a gun…Jeez even I have fired and been taught to clean and service pistol and rifle. :0>

Post: zed:

the gun comment was sarcasm, as your reply was? lol>

Post: zefff:

no. Although Ive only fired blanks from one pistol and two types of rifle.

Im sure other people outside UK have access to more firearms.>

Post: zed:

not sarcasm? then why did you make a reply? Hmmm…….out of sarcasm i said dont waste your time training in MA if all you wanna do is kill…..you are taking it somewhere it wasnt meant to go.>

Post: zefff:

okay it was a mix up. :roll: If I am sarcastic I usually will add a smilie or some other device to make it easy for you foreigners.

But TBH if I wanted to ‘kill’ well I would still learn MA. It seems you might be limiting your definition of what MA is???>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=zed not sarcasm? then why did you make a reply? Hmmm…….out of sarcasm i said dont waste your time training in MA if all you wanna do is kill…..you are taking it somewhere it wasnt meant to go.[/quote 

Up to this point, I figured you for an up and coming troll who would wind up being harmless since we have so many other trolls who are WAY better at getting under the skin than you.

But what you just said goes against the nature of the martial arts, perverts perspectives of it and thus runs the risk of corrupting the minds of our readers into something weaker than it should be. That is, if I let you continue posting this way unchallenged, you will cause harm to the people who read your words and take them to heart. I cannot allow that.

Let’s start with some arts and find out where they came from, shall we? Muay Thai: battlefield practices of the Thai people. Wing Chun: self defense against thugs in southern China. Jiu Jutsu: Battlefield practices of the Japanese people. several ryuha of Karate: Battlefield practices of the Okinawan people. Krav Maga: self defense and battlefield practices of the Israeli people. Defendo: Battlefield practices of Allied forces during World War II.

I could go on, but I have other things to do. The purpose, the function, of every martial art is to cause harm. Whether it’s for sport, personal improvement, self-protection or warfare, EVERY martial art is meant to destroy human life. If the times and progression of technology have changed such that using our fists and feet are not effective, then using them within the framework of martial arts is pointless in realistic settings.

The Japanese invented kenjutsu, iaijutsu, jojutsu and a number of other arts to perfect the use of battlefield weapons, especially the sword. You seem to use a lot of Chinese terms, so I’m sure of your own style’s use of spear, sword and staff techniques. Muay Thai descended from Krabi Kabrong, which utilizes sword, staff, spear and a number of other weapons. Escrmia/Arnis/Kali all use knives.

Why are you so resistant to the inclusion of gun in the progression of martial arts? If training a Long fist form can help a person towards some personal sense of peace or enlightenment, then so can training to use a firearm. If the use of your fists can be competitive, then so can the use of firearms. If the use of the fists and feet can save your life from an attacker or advance your cause as a soldier, then so can a gun. Furthermore, a gun is much more effective at getting the job of a soldier done. Why deny the gun the same respect we gave the sword? Why deny the shooters the same respect we give the boxers?>

Post: zed:

1st of all you dont have time? long post for someone with something other to do…but that doesnt matter….(nice history lesson btw) 2nd of all i didnt say he was taking the art in the wrong way i said he took my comment the wrong way and was twisting what i said. 3rd if the only reason you took MA (i practice KF- ancient ink brush style of shaolin kung-fu) is to kill or hurt, then you have some mental problems….do you? but i dont wanna get nasty here this is supposed to be a place of sharing and learning i take it…..i never knew this place was here i just found it a few days ago, and where many comments i have read where right on, im sick of this karate kid mentality where they wanna beat up everyone because…well….they can. im sick of it….if some thug comes up to me on the street when im with my wife and tried to harm us i would use my KF to the best of my ability. but to just walk around town giving dirty looks to people until one fights me just so i can put him in the hospital, is just silly, and i would be kicked out of my classes before i could say “damn i should have just shot him”. that’s all, grandmaster know it all. maybe i’ve been to harsh, and if i was i apoligize…..but this mentality is old, and needs to end once and for all…..just because it is done doesnt mean thats the way it supposed to go. i really really hope im not the only one that feels this way.MA is combat plain and simple…..but it is for defence unless youre a jerk. sorry for the rant but that ticked me off.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

Zed, one of two things is true. Either you didn’t really read my post, or you’re a complete moron.

If you train for reasons other than combat, then you’re martial arts training is nothing more than a hobby and can be easily replaced with building model trains or collecting antique lamps.

If you are focused on real-life combat, then you must face the logic that the tools you’re using (i.e. your body) are obsolete.

To debate either point is useless because both are correct.>

Post: zed:

i guess im a moron, because all i can think of when i read the tempo of your posts is the punk kid from the karate kid ;)…whether you are or not i have no idea, for i do not know you…..but oh well, this has to be an arguement ender for sure because this is going nowhere.>

Post: zefff:

Im bored with you Zed. Your fascination with Karate Kid has warped your senses. Do you even consider anything you read? I can understand if you think Tease is a nut but if you actually tried to understand and counter his points then maybe you would have an argument.>

Post: zed:

most of the time i get ticked more at the tempo of post and how they are conducted than what is really said, it has been done to me and maybe i shouldnt pass the buck…..but there is more than one way to look at something and that doesnt make it wrong, so……………i guess there is no point in dragging on this post. i hate when posts go off in a tangent, and maybe that was my fault this time…..but i takes 2 i guess. so lets just leave it. one day we will agree on something, mark my words ;)>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

How is there a tempo to a post unless you choose to read it that way? It isn’t like I’m putting little markers that say, “Read MY text LIKETHIS!”

And you can’t end an argument if you never made one. All you did is claim that Zefff and I are members of the Kobrakai or something, and then you offered no evidence to support your claim, making your argument dreadfully weak.

Had you actually addressed that issue at hand, maybe you wouldn’t have gained a reputation for being a cocksmoker.>

Post: zed:

if i had known this was a childs website i never would have posted, maybe i gave you too much credit, i thought u might have some sort of brain tissue(guess not)……but if your way of thinking is what is the norm on this website, then im surprised its been around this long…..this website represents why asians didnt want their art to come out west (and im an american, so imagine how bad it has to be for me to say that…pretty bad) now im sure there are people like me that came here for constructive comments and maybe have someone say something where everone could learn….but i was wrong this site sucks…..too many internet warriors here, i dont like cursing but this fucking website is filled with too many nipple sucking warriors that need a spanking from their mommys and daddys…..i will not come back to this farce of a MA site…type whatever the fuck you want i wont be back to read it….if you came back to what i said with inlightened constuctive comments i would feel different, but when babies attack (a new show name maybe?) you know its time to leave, im too old for this bullshit. ill check around for another site that is more adult. i should have know by the shout box comments that this was a kiddie forum….oh well. post away for yourself, i wont be back to read it, for it will serve noone, im done. oh well………………………………………………………kids…(im sure you will have someone erase…;)..)>

Post: zefff:

ROFLMAO! I love it when people hate Tease :lol:

Zed I know you are most likely gone now but please examine your responses and imagine a world without people like Tease. Would it be a better world? Would you be the same guy?

You cant change people and you cant control them. You can control yourself though and you can affect others as well as be affected. We all have to accept that discomfort will always exist. Revulsion, dislike and irritation is normal.

This is what I think today :)>

Post: bamboo:

ZEFFF- 4

ZED- 0>

Post: setsu nin to:

zed

Please take it easy. Now after your post TTT will be depressed for weeks. If you really want it, I will ask TTT to spank your ass.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

Setsu, maybe I would be depressed if zed mattered. But he doesn’t. Do I won’t be depressed.

[quote=Zefff Zed I know you are most likely gone now but please examine your responses and imagine a world without people like Tease. Would it be a better world? Would you be the same guy?

You cant change people and you cant control them. You can control yourself though and you can affect others as well as be affected. We all have to accept that discomfort will always exist. Revulsion, dislike and irritation is normal. [/quote 

I know we’ve had our sordid little past, but seriously what the fuck? I’m abrasive as all get out only to the asshats. Well, okay, maybe I’m abrasive all the time, but really now, you singling me out for being the troll basher is funny since you’re just as prolific at it as I am.>

Post: zefff:

Tease, I dont post about killing people do I? :lol:>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=zefff Tease, I dont post about killing people do I? :lol:[/quote 
Maybe you should. Join angryrocker and I as the resident Vikings.>

Post: zefff:

Sadly I dont have the genes and this hair wouldnt look right with that helmet. :lol: Being on the pimp commitee has fulfilled my ambitions anyway 8)>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

Hey, remember, I chaired the local Pimp Committee. It’s ridiculous how awesome a bearskin tuxedo looks with a real rabbit fur fedora. Oh, and the blood of my victims on my battle axe.>

Post: bamboo:

Sir Velvet Mac here,

I believe someone mentioned the pimp committee?>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=bamboo Sir Velvet Mac here,

I believe someone mentioned the pimp committee?[/quote 
Indeed….WONDER TWINS ACTIVATE….wait, no, I’m sorry.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

I don’t really prepare for a fight like a pro fighter does.

I’m guessing that is not what you are talking about. I’m new here and don’t know for sure how you operate.

But as far as fighting goes. I don’t really ever get in many fights that I have any time to prepare in advance.

I have been in a few Fight Club style fights in a friends garage. But they were just spur of the moment put the gloves on and hurt each other affairs.

I didn’t really do anything to prepare in any of those instances. I was just waiting for the fight to start.

Really and truely, every moment spent in training has been preparing myself for a fight.

Belief, skill confidence and realistic practice are after all the best preparation for any violent confrontation.>

Post: zefff:

Read the thread FFS! :roll:>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

When I first checked out this thread, I thought of the passages I am about to present for your reading.

Enjoy!

*******

From Chapter Four of “Lore of the Shadow Warrior” By Stephen K. Hayes

You are indeed worth defending.
There are those whose love you share
those whose days brighten with your presence
those who count on you.
Just how much
are you willing to do
in order to assure
that the twisted actions of the perverse
do not destroy the joy
In the hearts of those you love?

Jissen No Ho
Self Defense Fighting

Before beginning my training in the Japanese tradition of ninjutsu, I studied with a martial arts instructor who advocated that his art was only 10% physical and fully 90% mental when it came to street self defense. By this statement, that martial arts instructor meant to imply that all the technique in the world would be found to be lacking if the martial artist was unable to summon up and engage the proper frame of mind and fighting spirit when it came time to face a murderous attacker.

This grim reality is indeed even more appropriate to acknowledge in this age of ?enforced peace? in which we all live. Just where do you go to get our lessons in cultivating this all important ?90 percent? that hovers above training in mechanical technique itself? How are students of the fighting arts to know if their teachers and lessons are valid and are taking them progressively toward the twin goals of confidence and safety that so often inspire citizens of the modern world to seek out the study of the arts of self protection?

It is common for instructors of the formalized martial sports and recreation systems so popular in the world today to assume that because they are skilled in their system?s set way of performing basic movements, kata, steps, strikes and throws, they are automatically qualified to discuss and give expert instruction in self defense and street combat survival. This often completely false assumption is made despite the majority of popular martial arts available today did not have their foundings based on the premise of self protection combat. Most of today?s martial arts were established either as sports or spiritual development systems; their founders did not intend them to be used as methods for street fighting. In truth, the majority of martial systems popularly offered to customers today are nowhere near being related to the cold and often horrible realities of self protection combat.

It could be argued that there is only one truly reliable way to become a master of the technique of fighting other people. Facetiously of course, I offer the following suggestions as to how to become good at fighting.

First of all, find a place where you are sure to encounter people who fit the following categories:

* They all feel depraved of many of the benefits that life has presented others (financially, culturally, racially, politically, etc.), and resent those others as actually being less deserving than they themselves, even though those other live more satisfying lives.

* They all experience inner annoyance and lack of fulfillment as a result of agitated internal electrochemical imbalances inability to attain a sufficient level of satisfaction for sexual demands or proper nutritional balance).

* They all blur any possible realization of personal, social and community responsibilities by inculcating reduced powers of discretion, discernment and rational thought through the intentional abuse of intoxicating substances.

In other words, the first major step in this procedure of learning how to be a tough fighter is to find a low-class pick-up bar.

The second step is to enter the bar and shove some of the patrons around, either verbally or physically.

The third step is to experience the action of the fight.

The fourth step is to check out of the hospital and wait for the next weekend so that you can repeat the process all over again.

Continue to follow these four steps until you have gained sufficient experience to enable you to eliminate the necessity of going through step four every time.

Perhaps the ultimate in efficient and effective methods for developing the skill of defend other people in fights is to arrange to be born into a family that dwells in the heart of a violent and deprived community, and lacks the collective education to understand the mechanics of fear, cruelty, violence, disease and ignorance perpetuate themselves from one generation to the next. After growing up hungry, abused and frustrated, by the time you reach young adulthood you will undoubtedly be a good fighter if you survive the training of your youth.

What of training for those persons who were not born in the inhumane realms of hatred, aggression, abusive greed, intolerance and ignorance? How are those persons who were born into the realms of peace, fulfillment, joy and enlightened growth to go about cultivating the combat self protection skills necessary for survival when forced to enter the darker, less elevated strata of human society?

Here are some practical suggestions for cultivating fighting spirit without going so far as to poison your positive outlook on life in general:

* Be honest about your feelings. Recognize and acknowledge those emotions that could save you in a confrontation as they appear in your consciousness. Do not back down from rightful anger in the face of danger just because you were culturally patterned to be a ?good little boy/girl? thirty years ago. Muggers, thieves and rapists often count on their potential victims to be ?good and moral citizens?, unwilling to resort to the same kind of brutal and un-social violence that the criminal chooses to direct at them.

* Be Aware. Do not allow yourself to travel through life as though encased in a narrow envelope of fog. Actively expand the scope of your senses. When ever you catch yourself drifting or pulling in your awareness when you are out in a public place, firmly remind yourself that that in not what you are training to do, then return your conscience perception out to your surroundings once again. Remember that this will take time and work, so do not let yourself get discouraged if past bad habits are tough to shake off.

* Listen to your hunches. Do not venture into situations that you feel somehow have a high percentage of probability of turning into dangerous confrontations. If you are not sure of yourself in a certain situation, why take a chance unnecessarily? Find a safer, more reliable way to get done with what you must do.

* Be creative. Do not think that conventional fist fighting must always be the answer when confronted by a hostile assailant. Sometimes it is possible to confuse an attacker so that he does not see you as the victim, sometimes you can disappear from the dangerous situation, and sometimes you can set up an inescapable trap from which your assailant cannot get at you.

* Know your power and limitations. Long before you find yourself in a physical confrontation, take the time to explore the various things you can and cannot do. With knowledgeable friends or a qualified martial arts instructor, try out your basic strikes and kicks, body shifts and dodges, grabs or throws. Find out what you are best at doing and hone those skills into useable forms. Find out what you are weakest at doing and either train diligently to build up those skills or be especially careful to avoid situations where those weak points will have to be faced.

* Plan ahead. Practice with realistic drills just exactly what you will say, think and do in the case of an actual attack. Do not waste your time trying to develop fancy exotic technique skills like you see in the movies. Do not confuse tactics for winning martial arts contests with life-protecting combat skills; street fights rarely ever resemble sports tournaments. Stick to realistic and reliable basic moves that have a lesser chance of going wrong. Use your meditation sessions to rehearse mentally just what you will do in those scenarios most likely to happen in your own life. Have your strategy planned out so that you are not forced to think everything through in a time of extreme pressure and danger.

* Be appropriate. Honestly acknowledge just what the purpose of self defense is all about. Keep in mind that your goal is to get home in a safe and healthy manner. Do not get fooled or pressured into feeling that you are obligated in any way to handle the confrontation in a set manner. In a life threatening self defense situation, you are not at all obliged to win a fighting contest, convert a criminal mind to morally enlightened behavior, prove how special you are, clean up the streets for other potential victims, embody ideal macho movie hero behavior, or do anything at all beyond not being killed or maimed. If you can acknowledge this in a sincere and from the heart manner, you create a lot more room for potential actions other than a toe-to-toe, hook-and-jab fist fight. You can see that running, trickery, ?dirty? tactics, ?unfair? fighting techniques, or anything at all that come to mind or hand is a valid means for getting home in a safe and healthy condition.

* Be realistic. Do not kid yourself about just how far you would be willing to go in a self defense confrontation. It is easy to talk tough about all you will do if assaulted, and yet quite another situation when the events suddenly bring a human being against you as an attacker. Will you really be able to go through with all the violent actions that you can so easily describe in theory? If your response to any discussion of self protection is, ?I?ll just rely on my trusty .45?, are you truly willing to draw and fire no matter what the attack, and are you really willing to stand up and take the legal consequences resulting from such action?

* Keep in touch with local events. Check newspapers, listen to the radio, watch the news and keep on the alert for information concerning local trends in personal attacks in your community, or in areas that you may be traveling to visit. Take appropriate cautions and plan ahead so that you are not caught off guard by something that you could have known about ahead of time.

* Use everything at hand. A self defense situation is nothing at all like a sports competition. An attacker will easily use your hesitation to resort to ?unfair? tactics as an aid to accomplish his own lowly intentions. Therefore, cultivate a mind set of doing whatever it takes to guarantee your safety.>

Post: bamboo:

I have a hard time accepting anything, regardless if it makes sense or not from a guy that sells home study BB dvds over the net.

http://www.skhquest.com/>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=bamboo I have a hard time accepting anything, regardless if it makes sense or not from a guy that sells home study BB dvds over the net.

http://www.skhquest.com/[/quote 

I read a little further than the front page. The tapes are for home study but you cannot get ranking without testing. And black belt tests have to be done in person.

I see this as only a study aid. Nothing more.

Universities have been doing the same thing for a while now and do not get flak.

Hayes has been around for decades and runs security for some pretty high profile people. I don’t think criticism is warranted at all.

At least not this time.>

Post: bamboo:

I’m just not a fan.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=bamboo I’m just not a fan.[/quote 

Fair enough.>

Post: angryrocker4:

I happen to know a few people that started their training under Hayes, they dont hold any respect for him…..but Im still wondering about this toshindo approach and have yet to have anyone involved give me an idea in what exactly “he changed” or “updated” from the bujinkan.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

My instructor learned from both Hayes and Bussey. Mostly Bussey and only recently with Hayes.

He hasn’t told me much about Hayes’ school. Other than the fact they gave him crap about being one of Bussey’s students. From what I have gained over the years Hayes is very much traditional Ninjutsu. With only newer techniques that have been in use by law enforcement and military added for improvement.

Ninjutsu Traditions did not have extensive techniques for the modern firearm. I have heard that this has been added, to give an example of how they have updated it.

I have read all of Hayes’ Ninja Series and many of his other books. I have seen people give credit to people for much less knowledge and talent.

I question whether these organizations, that people have mentioned, shunned Dr. Hatsumi or if in fact he shunned them. I have read his books and watched him in documentaries also.

I would have to say that movies, comics and other popular media have done more to defraud the Ninja and Martial Arts enthusiast than either Hayes or Dr. Hatsumi. That?s a fact.

People like Ashida Kim and others who?s names I cannot remember are truly frauds. These were just guys that put on a black suit to teach their Karate or Kung Fu or whatever. They saw an easy mark and took their money. Then faded away.

I did extensive reading and research on the ?Ninja Craze? crowd. Or at least as much as I can do without traveling to all the places and talking to all the people.

Hayes and Dr. Hatsumi have remained active and innovative in the martial arts world as well as private sector security work for several decades now since I have been aware of their existence.

Bussey is also still active in both the MA and Private Sector. But he seemed to realize the fact that he?s a white guy and can?t be a ninja. So has taken what he learned from Dr. Hatsumi and uses it without all the Japanese trappings.

This is why I like Bussey. I don?t want all of the traditional trappings. I have traditional trappings of my own. Those are great for the Japanese for it is a reflection of them as a people. My interest is purely academic.

Are the techniques easy to apply and effective? Can they be effective under stress or exhaustion? Would they be legal?

In short, I have found Dr. Hatsumi and Mr. Hayes to be the most reliable of sources on traditional Ninjutsu and it?s trappings. Far superior to any other I have had experience with.

If anyone has other sources, please tell me. I am a sponge when it comes to this stuff. I read everything I can find on almost everything I find interesting. And I find this very interesting stuff.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

P.S. I’ll have a talk with my instructor and see if he can tell me some stuff about what it was like.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=Robert_RedBeard In short, I have found Dr. Hatsumi and Mr. Hayes to be the most reliable of sources on traditional Ninjutsu and it?s trappings. Far superior to any other I have had experience with. [/quote 

I’ve never trained with the man, but, when it comes to traditional ninjutsu, Hayes’ books are far from trustworthy. His knowledge of Japanese history is appalling for someone who claims to be an authority. As an example, he cites on a couple of occassions that some of Oda Nobunaga’s military actions were as a result of his hatred for the ninja and the urge to wipe them out. Utter rubbish. He was fueled by nothing of the sort.

Hatsumi’s books are much better but I still wouldn’t say he’s the most reliable. The book I’d place most trust in on the subject would be Shoto Tanemura’s Ninpo Secrets. Despite the slightly cheesy title, it’s an excellent, well-researched source of information on this particular matter.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=Hengest [quote=Robert_RedBeard In short, I have found Dr. Hatsumi and Mr. Hayes to be the most reliable of sources on traditional Ninjutsu and it?s trappings. Far superior to any other I have had experience with. [/quote 

I’ve never trained with the man, but, when it comes to traditional ninjutsu, Hayes’ books are far from trustworthy. His knowledge of Japanese history is appalling for someone who claims to be an authority. As an example, he cites on a couple of occassions that some of Oda Nobunaga’s military actions were as a result of his hatred for the ninja and the urge to wipe them out. Utter rubbish. He was fueled by nothing of the sort.

Hatsumi’s books are much better but I still wouldn’t say he’s the most reliable. The book I’d place most trust in on the subject would be Shoto Tanemura’s Ninpo Secrets. Despite the slightly cheesy title, it’s an excellent, well-researched source of information on this particular matter.[/quote 

I couldn’t remember the other guy whose books I had read. But it was Ninpo Secrets. I also found that reliable.

We have to remember that there is an official/government side to the story and then there is the Ninja’s side to the story.

I’m not really talking about nit picking these guys. Overall, if you look at it for what it is, both sources are reliable in their own ways.

I just feel that the victor writes the story. The Ninja Families were not the victors in the end from what I understand.

It’s not like I worship these guys. I just learn what I can from everyone I encounter and read or watch everything too.>

Post: nbotary:

[quote=Robert_RedBeard I just learn what I can from everyone I encounter and read or watch everything too.[/quote Ahhhh, but the question from me to you would be do you actually believe everything you see and read??? Personally, I believe in ghosts, but I have a hard time believing everything I see and hear on the “Ghost Hunters” show on the sci-fi channel. I had a science teacher in school that could do some amazing eperiments that would really blow you away. He could talk you through the entire experiment and you’d believe everything that was going on. However, he said that it was more of a perception of what your mind would allow you to believe than what was really happening. My point is, I would take everything with a grain of salt. I’m not crapping on you for what you feel is authoritative. Just make sure you’re using sound judgement when accepting and believing things when you’re filtering through the crap. I am glad to see that you keep an open mind… :)>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=nbotary [quote=Robert_RedBeard I just learn what I can from everyone I encounter and read or watch everything too.[/quote Ahhhh, but the question from me to you would be do you actually believe everything you see and read???[/quote 

No, I don’t believe everything. Otherwise I wouldn’t be at places like this refining my knowledge and awareness of subjects I find interesting.

Quote:
Personally, I believe in ghosts, but I have a hard time believing everything I see and hear on the “Ghost Hunters” show on the sci-fi channel. I had a science teacher in school that could do some amazing eperiments that would really blow you away. He could talk you through the entire experiment and you’d believe everything that was going on. However, he said that it was more of a perception of what your mind would allow you to believe than what was really happening. My point is, I would take everything with a grain of salt. I’m not crapping on you for what you feel is authoritative. Just make sure you’re using sound judgement when accepting and believing things when you’re filtering through the crap. I am glad to see that you keep an open mind… :)

Agreed.

And I feel that Hayes and Hatsumi are less full of crap than the rest so far. They are Ninja after all. I would expect some BS from them out of deception. It’s just the way they are.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=Robert_RedBeard We have to remember that there is an official/government side to the story and then there is the Ninja’s side to the story.

I’m not really talking about nit picking these guys. Overall, if you look at it for what it is, both sources are reliable in their own ways.

I just feel that the victor writes the story. The Ninja Families were not the victors in the end from what I understand. [/quote 

This is exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about. There were no “Ninja Families”. It’s ideas like this that Hayes’ drek is responsible for spreading. This whole idea of samurai vs. ninja, high caste vs. low caste, etc. is all rubbish. Ninja and samurai weren’t opposite ends of the social scale for the simple reason that ninja were samurai. Read reliable sources and you’ll realise that.

My advice would be, if you want to research the history of a particular MA, ignore MA books (at least in the beginning). Pick up a couple of good military history books on the era first and read those. Knowing the military, political and social situations behind a MA’s development will allow you to cut through the BS when you finally get to the MA books. Adopt this method, and it’s easy to work out that Oda’s military action had nothing to do with ninja prejudice, karate wasn’t developed by unarmed peasants to use against fully armed samurai, and Korean MAs cannot possibly be descended from hwarang combat methods.

[quote=Robert_RedBeard And I feel that Hayes and Hatsumi are less full of crap than the rest so far. They are Ninja after all. I would expect some BS from them out of deception. It’s just the way they are.[/quote 

So touting yourself as a ninja allows you to get away with bad scholarship? I’ll have to remember that.

Sorry, but that’s bull. For a start, they’re not ninja and I think even Hatsumi would admit that these days (although i doubt Hayes would). Most of their combative teachings stem from samurai combat schools. Some of these schools include ninjutsu, which are methods of spying, guerilla warfare and tactics, etc., but they’re not generally taught.

If I do omote kote gyaku as taught by Hatsumi, I’m not doing ninjutsu, I’m doing jutaijutsu. If I do boshiken, it’s not ninjutsu, it’s kosshijutsu. I’m only coming close to ninjutsu if I sit out on a freezing cold mountain for hours spying on a military installation. This is exactly why not one of the x-kans refers to itself as ninjutsu anymore, because it’s not ninjutsu they practice. Ergo, how can they be ninja?

Secondly, even if they were ninja, it doesn’t mean they adopt deception as a way of life. That’s more Hayes BS.

Thirdly, the other two x-kans teach almost exactly the same techniques, yet I don’t see them peddling all the mystical new age warrior crap I see coming from Hayes’ corner. Like I say, ninja or no, there’s no excuse for bad scholarship.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

Hengest,

Just curious, have you read the books? Do you know for sure what Hayes is or is not saying?

Because you are attacking the man and not his actual teachings. You are pulling this off the subject and onto how much you hate the man.

Does your hate for Hayes make the advice I posted of his less notable?

I am man enough to admit that it has been several years since I have read all Hayes’ books. So my recital of what I remember may be off. But I don’t think it is as off as you want it to be.

Read the books. Find inaccuracies and note them. Then post them and cite why they are wrong if you wanna attack his story.

Is there anything wrong with the excerpt I posted. Is it all BS?>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

I also notice that you keep talking about sources. Why not reveal them if you know which ones are the best?

The fact that you omitted reference to your sources makes me wonder if you know any better than I do. Vague reference to getting more reliable sources does little to advance your arguement that Hayes is a fraud.

I’m here to learn. But not from people that can’t back it up clearly.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=Robert_RedBeard Just curious, have you read the books? Do you know for sure what Hayes is or is not saying?[/quote 

No, I pull arguements out of my arse sometimes. Keeps everybody on their toes.

Of course I’ve read the books.

[quote=Robert_RedBeard Because you are attacking the man and not his actual teachings. You are pulling this off the subject and onto how much you hate the man.[/quote 

No, I’m not. Read my post. I have attacked two things and two things only: 1) Hayes’ research, and 2) your assertion that he’s a reliable source.

[quote=Robert_RedBeard Does your hate for Hayes make the advice I posted of his less notable?[/quote 

I don’t hate Hayes and I’m not attacking your earlier post. Why even bring it into the discussion? I say again, I’m attacking the man’s research, not him personally.

[quote=Robert_RedBeard I am man enough to admit that it has been several years since I have read all Hayes’ books. So my recital of what I remember may be off. But I don’t think it is as off as you want it to be.[/quote 

I don’t want it to be off, I want it to be on. That’s kind of my point.

[quote=Robert_RedBeard Read the books. Find inaccuracies and note them. Then post them and cite why they are wrong if you wanna attack his story.[/quote 

[quote=Robert_RedBeard I also notice that you keep talking about sources. Why not reveal them if you know which ones are the best?

The fact that you omitted reference to your sources makes me wonder if you know any better than I do. Vague reference to getting more reliable sources does little to advance your arguement that Hayes is a fraud.

I’m here to learn. But not from people that can’t back it up clearly. .[/quote 

I’ve already raised a specific point of contention, that of Hayes’ claim that Oda’s military action was fueled by ninja hatred. I also mentioned one of my sources, Tanemura’s book. You respond by ignoring my points and accusing me of letting my personal views on Hayes get in the way of discussion. Does anyone else see the irony…?

As for sources, well a good researcher will usually come up with three to support his arguement before he’ll put it forward. Hayes’ view of Oda’s military action (and a lot of his other arguements for that matter) cannot be corroborated in this way. Thus, I question his research. Simple as that.

So, let’s try and steer this back on course. Now, here’s how a discussion goes: you make a point, I make a counter point, then you counter the counter. You kind of forfeited your go when you got all histrionic because I dared to question Mr. Hayes, but I’m feeling generous, so I’ll let you have another go. I’ll number the points I raised so you don’t get confused this time.

1) Hayes’ research, bad! He often makes assertions that cannot be corroborated by other sources.

2) Calling yourself a ninja does not allow you to get away with bad research.

3) What Hatsumi and Hayes practice isn’t ninjutsu, therefore they are not ninja.

4) Even if they were ninja, it does not mean they would have to adopt deception as a way of life.

5) Genbukan and Jinenkan practice arts based around the same core ryuha as Hayes yet don’t market themselves as ninjutsu. Even Bujinkan has moved away from the ninja angle, yet Hayes has not. Why?>

Post: angryrocker4:

Actually, the kans dont market themselves as such but still use terms as ninpo, ninjutsu and such when talkin to new students, at least in my area. So how would that be interpreted?>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=angryrocker4 Actually, the kans dont market themselves as such but still use terms as ninpo, ninjutsu and such when talkin to new students, at least in my area. So how would that be interpreted?[/quote 

Depends how they’re using the term. Ninjutsu still forms a small part of the syllabus of the x-kans, but it is not ninjutsu they practice every day in the dojo.

Ninpo is a seperate term that shouldn’t be confused with ninjutsu. Genbukan refer to their style as ninpo bugei, but the ninpo should be translated as something like “methods of endurance” rather than anything to do with “stealth” or “ninja”.>

Post: angryrocker4:

That makes sense, as I hear the endurance and perservearance stuff. Stealth, is left up to the individual to learn in most groups, at least in the 2 I train in.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=Hengest [quote=Robert_RedBeard Just curious, have you read the books? Do you know for sure what Hayes is or is not saying?[/quote 

No, I pull arguements out of my arse sometimes. Keeps everybody on their toes.

Of course I’ve read the books.

[quote=Robert_RedBeard Because you are attacking the man and not his actual teachings. You are pulling this off the subject and onto how much you hate the man.[/quote 

No, I’m not. Read my post. I have attacked two things and two things only: 1) Hayes’ research, and 2) your assertion that he’s a reliable source.

[quote=Robert_RedBeard Does your hate for Hayes make the advice I posted of his less notable?[/quote 

I don’t hate Hayes and I’m not attacking your earlier post. Why even bring it into the discussion? I say again, I’m attacking the man’s research, not him personally.

[quote=Robert_RedBeard I am man enough to admit that it has been several years since I have read all Hayes’ books. So my recital of what I remember may be off. But I don’t think it is as off as you want it to be.[/quote 

I don’t want it to be off, I want it to be on. That’s kind of my point.

[quote=Robert_RedBeard Read the books. Find inaccuracies and note them. Then post them and cite why they are wrong if you wanna attack his story.[/quote 

[quote=Robert_RedBeard I also notice that you keep talking about sources. Why not reveal them if you know which ones are the best?

The fact that you omitted reference to your sources makes me wonder if you know any better than I do. Vague reference to getting more reliable sources does little to advance your arguement that Hayes is a fraud.

I’m here to learn. But not from people that can’t back it up clearly. .[/quote 

I’ve already raised a specific point of contention, that of Hayes’ claim that Oda’s military action was fueled by ninja hatred. I also mentioned one of my sources, Tanemura’s book. You respond by ignoring my points and accusing me of letting my personal views on Hayes get in the way of discussion. Does anyone else see the irony…?

As for sources, well a good researcher will usually come up with three to support his arguement before he’ll put it forward. Hayes’ view of Oda’s military action (and a lot of his other arguements for that matter) cannot be corroborated in this way. Thus, I question his research. Simple as that.

So, let’s try and steer this back on course. Now, here’s how a discussion goes: you make a point, I make a counter point, then you counter the counter. You kind of forfeited your go when you got all histrionic because I dared to question Mr. Hayes, but I’m feeling generous, so I’ll let you have another go. I’ll number the points I raised so you don’t get confused this time.[/quote 

Thanks.

But my main point is what the hell is wrong with the information I posted from Hayes? What does historical background from a couple thousand years ago have to do with the information presented?

You sir, are the one that went straight to assassinating the source and totally by-passed the subject and the information’s relevance.

Quote:
1) Hayes’ research, bad! He often makes assertions that cannot be corroborated by other sources.

I don’t see how his research is bad. I see that his story surrounding the fact happens to be different than the “established” history. This happens all the time and I am not willing to discount the man just because his story parts course with the party line.

And if you can point to the bad stuff in the books, I would be more than happy to read them over again.

Quote:
2) Calling yourself a ninja does not allow you to get away with bad research.

I don’t really know what to say about this. I agree with the statement but not that it is happening here.

Quote:
3) What Hatsumi and Hayes practice isn’t ninjutsu, therefore they are not ninja.

Correct, it is not 2000 years ago, they are not using their art in a warfare type situation. I believe from what I read from Hayes, that he is promoting the spiritual connection to the Ninja’s of legend and that most of the ninja legend was exactly that. Legend.

He pretty much teaches that these were ordinary guys for that culture and time. They didn’t really want to deal with establishment pressures, for lack of a better definition. So they went off on their own to be away from it. They got to powerful and a feudal government did what a feudal government does. They oppressed.

People reacted with an underground resistance movement.

Hayes teaches an outlook on life and how it is reflected in martial actions from what I can tell. Nothing more. He doesn’t deny the connection to ancient legends. He is very clear that most of it is silly fiction.

He writes that ninja were nothing like most people think they are. Then he writes a little about them to show you how they were and how it effected how they fought and lived.

I don’t really think he is trying to be a “Ninja”. But he is trying to transmit a little better knowledge of them than popular media. I guess you are the better judge of how well he does that since I don’t have enough sources. I’ll have to take your word for it.

Quote:
4) Even if they were ninja, it does not mean they would have to adopt deception as a way of life.

Don’t really see what this has to do with it. It swings both ways. Doesn’t mean they do, doesn’t mean the don’t.

5) Genbukan and Jinenkan practice arts based around the same core ryuha as Hayes yet don’t market themselves as ninjutsu. Even Bujinkan has moved away from the ninja angle, yet Hayes has not. Why?[/quote 

Ask him that. He certainly isn’t trying to pump some stereotype of what a ninja really is. The man seems dedicated to his art. If it’s not ninjutsu, then it’s not. Sorry to hear it, but I don’t think it changes the relevance of what I posted in response to the thread.

I just read the part of Hayes’ book talking about the military actions against the Mountain Mystics, as he calls them. And as I understand what he wrote, there were no ninja families at that point in time. That the Ninja families/clans/groups, whatever you wish to call them, formed as a result of those actions. As a form of resistance and counter-influence.

That’s what I got out of his text. That seems to fit with what you are saying happened. Or at least the part about it not being about going after ninjas. Obviously not, if there really wasn’t anything identifiable as “ninja” at the time as far as I know.

I really am eager to learn anything new. So I am just going to apologize for my rough start and look things over more closely.

I have all 5 books and I started to read them again. So far his story seems to parallel pretty closely.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=Hengest [quote=angryrocker4 Actually, the kans dont market themselves as such but still use terms as ninpo, ninjutsu and such when talkin to new students, at least in my area. So how would that be interpreted?[/quote 

Depends how they’re using the term. Ninjutsu still forms a small part of the syllabus of the x-kans, but it is not ninjutsu they practice every day in the dojo.

Ninpo is a seperate term that shouldn’t be confused with ninjutsu. Genbukan refer to their style as ninpo bugei, but the ninpo should be translated as something like “methods of endurance” rather than anything to do with “stealth” or “ninja”.[/quote 

So it would seem at least that some still do market it as ninja arts. I do agree that don’t make them ninja. It means they study them.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=Robert_RedBeard But my main point is what the hell is wrong with the information I posted from Hayes? What does historical background from a couple thousand years ago have to do with the information presented?

You sir, are the one that went straight to assassinating the source and totally by-passed the subject and the information’s relevance.[/quote 

OK, let’s go over this again shall we, cos you seem to have problems grasping it:

1) I was not posting re your initial arguement, but your assertion that Hayes’ research was the “most reliable of sources on traditional Ninjutsu and it?s trappings. Far superior to any other I have had experience with.”

2) I am not attacking Hayes but his scholarship.

And what does historical background have to do with it? Well when you present yourself as an authority on ninjutsu, I’d say it has a shitload to do with it. But then I’m kind of funny like that; I like my sources to be reliable.

[quote=Robert_RedBeard I don’t see how his research is bad. I see that his story surrounding the fact happens to be different than the “established” history. This happens all the time and I am not willing to discount the man just because his story parts course with the party line.[/quote 

So do you believe everything in The Da Vinci Code too? It’s fine departing from the party line if you can do so with solid research, but Hayes hardly ever mentions his sources and his views often cannot be corroborated by other sources, even Hatsumi’s books. That causes me to raise an eyebrow.

[quote=Robert_RedBeard And if you can point to the bad stuff in the books, I would be more than happy to read them over again.[/quote 

Well that’s a little difficult without the books in my possesion. However, I ordered copies yesterday, so I’ll get back to you on that.

[quote=Robert_RedBeard 

Quote:
2) Calling yourself a ninja does not allow you to get away with bad research.

I don’t really know what to say about this. I agree with the statement but not that it is happening here.[/quote 

My comment stemmed from your statement “They are Ninja after all. I would expect some BS from them out of deception. It’s just the way they are.”

[quote=Robert_RedBeard He writes that ninja were nothing like most people think they are. Then he writes a little about them to show you how they were and how it effected how they fought and lived.[/quote 

Well this is where I disagree. I think he paints the kind of picture of ninja that people want to see, not what they actually were.

[quote=Robert_RedBeard I guess you are the better judge of how well he does that since I don’t have enough sources. I’ll have to take your word for it.[/quote 

No, don’t take my word for it! Get out there and research it yourself. It’s not difficult. This is exactly my point: don’t take Hayes, Hatsumi, even Tanemura at face value. Do your own research and maybe you’ll see why I dislike Hayes’ writings.

[quote=Robert_RedBeard 

Quote:
4) Even if they were ninja, it does not mean they would have to adopt deception as a way of life.

Don’t really see what this has to do with it. It swings both ways. Doesn’t mean they do, doesn’t mean the don’t.[/quote 

Again, my comment stemmed from your statement “They are Ninja after all. I would expect some BS from them out of deception. It’s just the way they are.”

[quote=Robert_RedBeard I have all 5 books and I started to read them again. So far his story seems to parallel pretty closely.[/quote 

Parallel closely with what? With the rest of his story? How can you tell if Hayes is correct if you’re not cross-checking it against other books on the subject? Like I say, don’t just rely on MA books. Read military history books and other related texts. Question everything. The truth is out there.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

I meant that the story parallels pretty closely with what you have said.

And please enlighten me as to what the ninja really were.

I could be hunting forever for that answer. Not that it really matters from my point of view. I am in it for the useful things I can pick up. Techniques, tricks, ideas.

And you may want to notice, I said he was the most reliable source I have had experience with.

I haven’t really been pointed to anything else. It was all self discovered.

I feel that there is much to offer in what Hayes has written. Even if his scholarship sucks.I personally don’t need to know everything about it for it to be useful. Kinda like a light bulb.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=Robert_RedBeard And please enlighten me as to what the ninja really were.[/quote 

Well, this is the thing. We don’t really have the evidence to say what they were. However, the little we do know points us in quite a different direction to that generally touted in Black Belt articles and the like. For a start, the few historical ninja we have information on, such as Hattori Hanzo, were samurai. This is important because it means that all this stuff about ninja being “eta”, low caste, is rubbish. It also means that there were probably not any ninja clans. At best, they were samurai clans that had some members who were skilled in ninjutsu. And if there were no ninja clans, then ninja didn’t have seperate beginnings to the samurai. It’s more likely that ninja evolved from neccessity, from changes in warfare, much like the modern concept of Special Forces stemmed from the need for such during WWII.

The idea that ninja formed a distinct part of military society with their own martial culture just doesn’t seem to be the case.

[quote=Robert_RedBeard I feel that there is much to offer in what Hayes has written. Even if his scholarship sucks.I personally don’t need to know everything about it for it to be useful. Kinda like a light bulb.[/quote 

I’d agree to an extent. If you just want to use the light bulb, Hayes is fine. However, if you want to know about the history and development of light bulbs, he’s not to be relied on, IMNSHO.

I just want to say though, at no point have I intended to criticise Hayes as a martial artist or Bujinkan as a martial art. I think Hayes is a poor researcher and a shameless self-publicist, but he is worth listening to when it comes to the practical application of taijutsu, etc. Likewise, I have a lot of respect for Bujinkan budo taijutsu as a style. When it’s taught properly, it’s awesome and difficult to find a system more worthy of study.>

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