krav maga gun defense article

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krav maga gun defense article
Original Poster: Kooler
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 24-10-2005, 16:09

Orginal Post: Kooler: Topic: Recent krav maga gun defense article

My first response was to ignore this article completely. The reason I suppose had much to do with the predictable fawning, adulation and cultish praise I witnessed from the krav maga sycophants whenever the existence of this piece was broached. Having seen the same pictures in a previous krav maga gun defense article (For which I addressed their flaws in the past), I assumed it may have been a reprint. Well, I found a little time the other day to catching up on my reading and decided to take a moment to read John Whitman’s article. After reading it, I now believe it deserves my attention.

I thought the readers would benefit from another in-depth, stellar analysis and I will again prove to my brethren and general audience why krav maga is widely regarded by professionals as just the latest martial Fad to hit the public. And exactly the reason why a superior system such as professionals are governed by principles rather than techniques, the emphasis of every other system on the planet. Let’s get started.

Whitman- “…krav maga teaches…gun defenses…that reduces the number of techniques you must learn…which results in shorter training time and faster application under stress.”

Translation: krav maga is technique-based rather than on the more reliable science of principles. Given the method of rote being employed by krav maga, there is little-to-zero cognitive thought given to the random variances that inevitably pop up in lethal confrontations. If the response is to react automatically in a preprogrammed manner under stress, individuals will lose their lives. It should not escape the notice of my fellow professionals that every other word out of Mr. Whitman’s mouth is an overriding concern and emphasis on technique. Almost nowhere in the article does he state, the principle that governs the technique, ergo, the need for having to conduct this analysis in the first place.

Case in point, a practitioner of karate was shot to death in Brooklyn, New York, trying to protect his wife from a pair of armed muggers; a man and woman. As one the male attacker attempted to steal the wife’s purse, the stylist was able to kick the weapon knocking it clear of the attackers hand. The second mugger retaining her gun shot the victim in the chest. The first mugger upon recovering his firearm shot the victim as well killing him. The muggers escaped with the purse which contained the sum total of $10.

Whitman- “Any technique that moves your body by stepping, twisting, or leaning requires more muscle activity and offers the gunman telltale signs, triggering his response to fire the weapon. Instead, your initial movement must be as undetectable and small as possible…”

There is a glaring flaw with this approach, it does not take into consideration the psychology governing the fighter (in this case, defender) and attacker, both physical and mental. By omitting this very crucial science, the defenders very expression may instinctively cause the attacker to shoot him before he can even begin to move his hand for disarmament.

Whitman- “In addition, two-handed defense decrease your length, while one-handed defenses allow you to stretch out, making the technique more effective at greater distances…”

Not only is this a dangerous assumption, but a foolish one as well. As we know, as per compression mechanics, the further we extend our skeletal and muscular structure, there is a degradation of structural power. The reverse is true as well, too much compression and we suffer the same power loss. Those of you now may be saying, “Then how in the world do we increase our range without sacrificing structural power then?

Simple, rotation. Not only do you gain additional range, at the same time you ‘naturally’ reposition your body moving it from the field of fire. Depending on the range to your intended target, you must achieve an equilibrium of sorts on just how much to extend your skeletal and muscular structure Vs diminishing compression power. As we know, a 45 angle of alignment of the skeletal and muscle groups is used for optimal contraction and protraction purposes. Keep in mind every human being is different, each with their own strengths and weakness. Therefore, a taller man with longer limbs will naturally have an easier time reaching his targets than that of a shorter male with a shorter reach.

This is the glaring difference between a system governed by principles and one managed by techniques. A krav maga stylist will say, this is how we do our technique, but are incapable of stating precisely what scientific principles that enable it to be applied correctly, be functional, or even how the movement and mechanics apply universally. This was one of the biggest complaints from my workout partner when he recalled his time in the martial arts. They would never go into detail how and why certain things were done. I can assure you he has no such questions since he availed himself to a professional system. He knows how to inflict lethal damage, gained confidence and more importantly, how to Educate himself.

Whitman- “krav maga’s techniques move the weapon laterally, parallel to the ground along the shortest, straightest line possible…This may seem like common sense, but many instructors of other arts prefer to push the gun upward, which means the line of fire travels from their chest to their throat to their mouth to their brain and then off their body.”

I can only assume that Mr. Whitman read this same material as I had months previously and forgot to inform the readers where he may have gotten this from, not that it takes a genius to figure this out. However, seeing how John Whitman has gotten so many things wrong about disarmament protocols, I have a difficult time believing he cam ..

Post: MrApollinax:

Question: Have you actually seen or done any of the gun defenses found within the Krav Maga system? The following quote from your post tells me that you have no experience with the gun defenses in question:

Quote:
Those of you now may be saying, “Then how in the world do we increase our range without sacrificing structural power then?

Simple, rotation. Not only do you gain additional range, at the same time you ‘naturally’ reposition your body moving it from the field of fire.

And since you take this quote either out of context or without understanding what the quote actually means:

Quote:
Any technique that moves your body by stepping, twisting, or leaning requires more muscle activity and offers the gunman telltale signs, triggering his response to fire the weapon. Instead, your initial movement must be as undetectable and small as possible…

I am also going to assume that you have some sort of agenda against Krav Maga in general. I’m going to post the ENTIRE comment for others to read and put into BOLD what you ommited and italisize the most important ommisions:

Quote:
Any technique that moves the defender by stepping, twisting, or leaning requires more muscle movement and offers the gunman telltale signs, triggering his response to fire the weapon. Your initial movement must be as undetectable and small as possible, and it must alter the line of fire. In most cases with Krav Maga, this redirection is made with the hand. Krav Maga students train to send their hands without making any initial body movements?no leaning, no tensing up, no weight-shift. This makes the defensive technique more difficult for the attacker to detect. Only after the initial hand movement has begun can you initiate a body defense.

If anyone has more questions PM me. I’m not going to post anymore on this thread since it seems to me that it was initiated just to bad mouth another system and it’s practitioners. Here is a link to the article in question. Read it for yourself and make your own decisions:

http://www.realfighting.com/1001/kravmaga.htm

and for those wondering about what “in-depth, stellar analysis” the Krav Maga community does when considering it’s gun defenses here is a link to a recent discussion about the hand gun threat defense that is put into question:

http://www.kravmaga.com/forum/discussion.cgi?forum=1&discussion=3490>

Post: Kooler:

Not bad mouthing another system or anyone! If you think the shit that is taught here in the US is Krav Maga well fine.

Birth of krav maga

To prepare soldiers for combat and to instill a warrior spirit, in the 1980s the IDF (Israeli Defense Force) created a boot-camp-style hand-to-hand program called krav maga (krav means “combat” or “fight,” and maga means “touch” or “contact”). Krav maga is a well-rounded hybrid system which encourages students to be aggressive and decisive in conflict. It includes hard-hitting hand and elbow strikes, thai-style knee strikes, low kicks, grappling, knife defense, gun and rifle takeaways, and lots of physical conditioning. The original concept of krav maga was to absorb any martial art that was useful by taking its most effective techniques and teaching them quickly and efficiently.

Krav maga offshoots

In late 1980s krav maga was also being taught to the Israeli public. Since everyone in that society serves in the military, most of the population had been exposed to it anyway. In fact, the name of the art became so common that it was used as loosely in Israel as the word karate is used in America. Variations sprang up everywhere. By the 1990s, everybody was claiming to be a krav maga master or a 10th degree black belt.

Some of the original instructors of krav maga got so fed up with people claiming that their krav maga was the “true-version taught to elite units” that they dropped the term krav maga from their vocabulary altogether. With so many people laying claims to the krav maga system, many veteran instructors felt a need to regulate what was, and was not, pure krav maga. Several organizations stepped up to the plate: the krav maga association, krav maga federation, krav maga union, Israeli krav maga, international krav maga federation, krav maga and so on.

A few years ago, the Wingate Institute, a respected Israeli sports organization, claimed to have the exclusive rights to krav maga for licensing and curriculum purposes. Although it was recently defeated in court, the organization is appealing to the Israeli Supreme Court. Many in the military community are outraged at the Institutes attempt to gain control of the name.

Since the commercialization of krav maga in Israel, there has been a movement away from using these terms altogether.

On its way? What do you call an organization that forces people to enter into an annual or biannual contract and requiring their members to all purchase krav maga logo merchandise. A curriculum that purposefully doles out its knowledge in such a manner, that weapons usage is not taught until the student has literally divested YEARS of their time into the system :roll:>

Post: Kooler:

Additional thoughts:

Why is it, whenever I see a krav maga photo, they’re always striking to the head of the attacker (CNS), regardless of the attackers approach? Trust me, there are many ways to take someone out without having to constantly aim for the head. The head is a very mobile target, especially on a skilled opponent, making it very difficult target to hit. If you don’t believe it, just ask any boxers that’s spent time in the ring. If you’re a smaller fighter going against a larger opponent, the last thing you’re going to want to do is strike them to the head with that krav maga strike (a.k.a. the jkd straight blast). You won’t have any real drive and will probably only end up pissing the guy off. If you workout with a much larger partner as I, this becomes readily apparent.

Given the very simple physics involved with a krav maga straight-lined, piston type assault, only creates space between you and your attacker. Hitting in this manner forces the krav maga stylist to employ additional movement to maintain a reasonable distance after you’ve just driven the attacker away from you with these sorts of linear strikes. Subsequently, the attacker has now the capacity of retreat. It is an inefficient use of fighting movement.

How can this be prevented? Simple, use hooks or circular attacks. Not only are they more powerful and have greater knockout or knockdown energy, they can be used at extremely close proximity because rotation gives you the distance you need to generate the structural and kinetic strength. At the same instant, that vector of movement will spin the attackers body on his ‘Principal Axis’ negating his ability to withdrawal causing the chaos factor and vertigo into the equation as well.

Incidentally, the fastest way to drop a bigger attacker in such a situation may not be to stand there and trade punches with the man, directing all your strikes at his CNS, but grabbing that head and manipulating it. Crank or turn the head slowly, can drop a man faster than if you stood there punching him to the head attempting to knock him out. Some guys have hard heads, and striking them to that region of the body won’t necessarily faze them.

What’s the difference between cranking the head sharply and slowly? Well, when you do it slowly, this allows the attackers body to follow, resulting in a controlled takedown. Crank it fast and sharp, the predictable occurs, the neck snaps and your attacker dies from the loss of nerve impulses from his central nervous system that operates the bodies vital organs. However, if he manages to live because you’re an amateur (stylist) and screwed up the movement, well let’s just say that your attacker may probably end up looking like Christopher Reeve for the reminder of his natural life.

As we can see, there’s a lot of science and principals involved with combat, the individuals that go around stating that its all got to do with the style and/or the individual are clearly uneducated.>

Post: setsu nin to:

I have one question about krav maga.

If krav maga worth, why so many Izrael soldiers die everyday, OK its war, but they are terible soldiers, they are effective only against civilians or when they use technology and keep battle on long disance with bombs, rockets, snipers (well about snipers they had to take old snipers from Russia)… So when they use technology they are OK, but when they use human factor they are terible.
Also there are so many “fantastic”, “moust effective”… styles from Izrael, but does anyone here know for any world champion from Izrael in any martial art?>

Post: Blade:

setsu that is a racial generalization more then a fact based on anything ,that insults me greatly.
The “Lethal Krav Maga” mottos and all that are just that, advertising frauds which are used outside of Israel to sell krav maga as the best martial art.
do you think every soldier that sits in his post is a spetsnaz professional ? not all soldiers are specialy trained, the majority of the soldiers get a few hours instruction in H2H combat.

There are many Israeli martial artists with respectable achievments.
Judo may be the most well-known.>

Post: zefff:

this thread is wak! I suggest if anyone has a problem with Krav Maga and its teachings they should go storm their local KM gym and report the results to Bullshido. There is nothing constructive or educational in this thread.>

Post: Dark Soldier:

Kooler, you sound like you do SCARS or TFT am I right?>

Post: km:

i’m 29 yars old, and i never practice any martial art , except kravmaga since 2 years ago, and 2 months ago somebody tryed to assault me with a knife, and never before in my life i thought i can broke is arm in the elbow zone and knock him down with a kick in the throat, that’s all i have to say about it, do you know if any martial art can trained you for that in a short period of time????
answer that please…>

Post: bamboo:

There is a student at my dojo that was grabbed from behind on the street at roughly 9pm. He spun around and knocked the man out cold and called the police.

His only martial art ever studied- Aikido.
Length of time studied- roughly 2 years, twice a week.
Technique that “happened”- ushiro kokyu nage
Result- KO, arrest made.

yep, useless ‘ole aikido.

-bamboo>

Post: vladimir:

[quote=setsu nin to I have one question about krav maga.

If krav maga worth, why so many Izrael soldiers die everyday, OK its war, but they are terible soldiers, they are effective only against civilians or when they use technology and keep battle on long disance with bombs, rockets, snipers (well about snipers they had to take old snipers from Russia)… So when they use technology they are OK, but when they use human factor they are terible.
Also there are so many “fantastic”, “moust effective”… styles from Izrael, but does anyone here know for any world champion from Izrael in any martial art?[/quote 

Krav Maga teaches soldiers how to fight in hand-to-hand combat. I don’t know of any Israeli soldiers that were killed in hand-to-hand combat. Do you consider American soldiers terrible because they are killed almost every day in Iraq. It’s a war and you need to stop looking at it from one dimension. Maybe the Palestinians and Iraqi insurgents are using good tactics and not that the Israelis and the Americans are using bad or have bad soldiers.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

vlad, Israeli soldiers DON’T fight hand to hand. They ONLY bully civilians with their machine guns, tanks and other heavy artillery. Krav has NOT ever proven to be an affective martial art.>

Post: setsu nin to:

vladimir

“Do you consider American soldiers terrible because they are killed almost every day in Iraq.”

I dont want to start flame war here, but when you asked? yes and no. Not becouse they are killed, but becouse… I am not sure, but maybe I had to use term army instead of soldiers. Its not that there is no good soldier in US army, or that they are all bad soldiers, I honestly believe that there are many great guys in US army, just they didnt get war in Iraq with such great technology that they have and so many people, they didnt get it first time, or in Vietnam, or in Korea, so from that point my answer is yes. US soldiers have best technology, best knowledge too, but in my opinion they dont fight with heart and while they fight without heart they will never get any war. They are too long from home in foreign and totally different country with totally different rules fighting for people who hate them? its just no possible to fight with heart in such conditions.

But anyway, please continue? I noticed all manuals that you posted here, you avatar, some posts, you mention looking war from one dimension? so I conclude that you have lot of knowledge, maybe even experience about war subject. So from which dimension do you look it? BTW what is war in your opinion?

Point of what I said in my previous post is that we all know for Israel martial arts, they are given to us in magazines, TV, internet? as something great, as something better than many other styles? We can discourse here for hours if they are good soldiers or not so I will stay out of it, but I ask you Vladimir now if you could put names of ten or just five world champions from Israel in any martial art, no meter, karate, BJJ, boxing, TKD? I will help you. There is one in boxing and one in karate, so you find others.

Please notice that my intend wasnt to hurt anyones feelings in these post and that I dont say that all US soldiers are bad guys or anything like that.>

Post: JC1007:

The IDF was always held in high esteem when I was in the Marine Corps. This meant a lot in my book because the Marine Corps has never been free with it’s praise of other military organizations including our own (Army, Air Force, Navy, etc.) unless you were talking about special ops like the Rangers, Navy SEALS or PJs. If you watch the evening news or support Palestine then I can certainly understand your animosity towards the Israeli armed forces even though I respectfully disagree with it.

Where Krav Maga is concerned there are issues with the licensing fees. I think it’s unfortunate that you pay a lot of money for the training and then have to continue to pay money for the licensing. Fortunately, as a law enforcement instructor, I don’t have to worry about that unless I choose to open up my own school. I agree with recertification of instructors every two years. I was glad that Krav Maga wasn’t static and was willing to re-look at issues as new situations popped up. I do not like the current trend where so many Krav Maga schools focus more on the physical conditioning then they do on self-defense, like cardio kick boxing.

As an effective self-defense system, I stand by it. By and large though, I think its all in how it’s taught. Its far more effective then anything else I’ve been taught or taught in my 15 years as a police officer. It’s been proven effective on the streets by my officers who work some very tough neighborhoods.

With that said though, I also recognize that KM does not replace the years of study it takes a traditional martial artist to become proficient in their art. I do not consider KM a martial art. There’s a reason why, while I teach KM, I study BJJ and Hapkido.

I’ll type more later. Hard to respond and drive in a car at the same time. :)>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
As an effective self-defense system, I stand by it. By and large though, I think its all in how it’s taught. Its far more effective then anything else I’ve been taught or taught in my 15 years as a police officer. It’s been proven effective on the streets by my officers who work some very tough neighborhoods.

Emphasis mine.

Would you say that the H2H training recieved by police officers in your district is insufficient in general?

All in all, I’ll take the word of a police officer regarding H2H anyday. We have an officer at the dojo and he is truly a stand up guy. He has mentioned several times that police officers should (in his opinion) be spending more time learning and practicing control and takedown techniques than firearms. Keep in mind that I live in a canadian city.

-bamboo>

Post: JC1007:

I’d say that, as a general rule, H2H training for law enforcement is insufficient nation wide (here in the US and more then likely in Canada as well as our law enforcement organizations are fairly similar). California, which is often used as the hallmark for law enforcement training standards, only requires 8 hours of training in weaponless defense every 2 years and that training has to cover certain areas (arrest conttrol, gun retention, etc.). This is compared to firearms training which is 16 hours a year.

In 15 years, I’ve been fortunate in that I have never had to use my firearm. I’ve used my baton (or other impact weapon like an ASP) maybe 10 times in those years and pepper spray maybe 10-15 times. Compare that to the number of fights I’ve been involved in on duty or the number times I’ve had to use control holds etc.; I use my weaponless defense skills daily. The training in this area is far from adequate for most departments including my own and I consider that my officers receive a minimum of 24 hours of training in self-defense and arrest control each year, far exceeding the state standard. If I could train them more I would but being able to put on one class a week is about all we can fit in.

The good news is that the police academies are starting to recognize this. The academy in Sacramento does over a 100 hours of training in this area. I recently sat on the training committee for the San Joaquin Delta Police Academy who wants to upgrade and expand their training program and include more self-defense.

I agree wholely with the officer that attends your dojo. There definitely needs to be more of emphasis on H2H.>

Post: Parishda:

JC1007 – I have a lot of respect for you boys in blue, thanks for doing what you do.

setsu nin to – I realize that you had no intention of starting any sort of war, but I have to respond. I am assuming by your broken English that you might not be an American or if you are that you might be foreign born. I am an American soldier, I can assure you that the mass majority of soldiers are professionals; we do not have to agree with our orders to follow and execute them. The casualty numbers in Iraq are largely due to IED (Improvised Explosive Devices). I would like for you to explain to me how in the name of God does your skill as a soldier protect you from something you can not see coming? It would be very easy to say that you yourself are a poor fighter because you could not stop a bomb from being dropped on your house. Driving down the highway at 55mph, by the time you spot anything out of the ordinary, its too late. Trust me we have our heart in staying alive. I know you said that you didn’t want to hurt anyone?s feelings, but that?s sort of hard given the tone of you post. I do not understand your question about the “dimensions” of war – if you elaborate I would be happy to give you as much knowledge as possible.>

Post: setsu nin to:

I apologize because my bad English, I will try to explain my points first.
KM ? Israel army ? sport champions. Its all about KM. From my point too many Israel soldiers cant defend themselves good and thats why so many of them die every day. They are attacked with firearms and bombs of course, but also (even more) with stones, sticks, pipes, chains? where they can use their martial arts (KM) skills. Other point here was that same guys who were able to make KM “martial arts of all martial arts”, werent able to become or to make one champion.

Second point was about US army. Vladimir asked me: “Do you consider American soldiers terrible because they are killed almost every day in Iraq”. I just said that I dont consider them terrible soldiers because they are killed every day, but that I consider US army bad because they (as army not individuals) cant win war with best technology, best trained people, loyal people, lot of people? and its not first time, same thing happened in Iraq before, in Vietnam? Reason for that is in my opinion because they (US army) fight widouth heart, spirit? when I say fighting with heart or spirit or whatever, I dont mean having “heart in staying alive”, its nothing like that. Its hard to explain. You get it (fighting with heart) when you are defending your homeland, you people. When you know what everyone of your soldiers think, when you believe that you can do anything, when you instead of crying start laughing?

That about dimensions. Well Vladimir said to me: “It’s a war and you need to stop looking at it from one dimension” so I asked him “So from which dimension do you look it? BTW what is war in your opinion?”.>

Post: Parishda:

War in my opinion is anytime, anyplace where someone wants to take my life. Be it the desert sands or downtown, it can be a battle between Armies or a fight between individuals. A war is a simple life and death struggle between two entities.

Where are you from? Just curious, I do not mean to be rude at all

On your first point – soldiers die, it?s understood that in battle it is inevitable. Israeli soldiers are often outnumbered while sticks and stones are being thrown, along with those bullets and firebombs.

On your second point – what war is the American armed forces losing? You mention the Gulf War; the ground battle lasted for a hundred hours. Our goal was to free Kuwait, we accomplished that mission. I call that a victory, so please explain the loss. Vietnam can be argued either way – we conducted withdraw operations for numerous reasons. We fight wars on foreign soil for political reasons; like it or not it is the way governments work. If those political reasons no longer out weigh our costs, we withdraw. I certainly do not think we are losing the current conflict. After all what is the defining factor of “winning” a war? Is it body count? Is it goals accomplished? What defines winning?

On defending your homeland – of course a group of individuals defending their homes will fight twice as hard as someone who is not. However a person who is fighting for his life will fight just as hard if not harder. I argue that once the first bullets start flying the majority of soldiers (on either side) are fighting for their lives and fighting hard.

In your opinion who has the best military in the world? Who has all this heart?>

Post: JC1007:

And to pipe in my two cents worth. The United States didn’t loose Viet Nam because of our military. The USMC never lost a battle during Viet Nam. After the Tet Offensive when the NVA and VC threw everything they had in a surprise attack and were beat back, they were ready to surrender. It was the American political left that lost that war and they are the ones that are causing us problems now in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we’re going to fight a war then we should fight it right. No quarter given until the enemy is crushed and drops it’s weapons and raises it’s hands in surrender. Which is what the military would do if given the opportunity.>

Post: bamboo:

JC1007-

Thank you for your response to my original question. Its nice to know that at least somewhere its being addressed at the institutional level.

-bamboo>

Post: km:

one thing that’s interesting to focus in Kravmaga is there are not a particular style of fighting, but it’s an open martial art, we adapted it to ourselfs for example if you are tall and thin, you have to defend yourself diferently than if you are short and fat, or if you geneticaly dont have great leg extentions , why are you try to train head kicks??..if you can give a power punch in the throat, wich have the some efficienly….
every people adapt kravmaga to their own style and fisic conditions, thats why KM is different from other styles…>

Post: setsu nin to:

Parishda

Well if you as soldier dont see what mean lose was (Vietnam, Korea?) and if you consider fighting with heart as fighting for your own life that I think that it would be better to change these discussion with some martial arts discussion. No offense please.>

Post: setsu nin to:

km

“we adapted it to ourselfs for example if you are tall and thin, you have to defend yourself diferently than if you are short and fat…”

You will find same in any other martial art where teacher/instructor/coach is good.>

Post: JC1007:

I would agree with Setsu in that every martial artist learns to adapt the style he/she studies to the limitations of their own body. I’ll take a different tact on the adaptation of KM. I’ve said this before, but KM isn’t a static style. It adapts to the changing times and is regularly refining the techniques taught (hence the 2 year recert for instructors). As an example, there was a weakness in KM’s ground defense techniques. The school where I received my instructor certification has been working on correcting those weaknesses and has started teaching ground fighting more extensively. I’ve also said that I don’t think that KM is a martial art. I’ll expand that thought to say it isn’t a martial art yet. It’s a self-defense system, an MA in it’s infancy. Unlike the more traditional martial arts that have had hundreds or thousands of years to refine it’s techniques, KM is only around 60 years old and is still growing and learning. 40 years from now when we’re all gray and nursing old injuries from a life time of training, Krav Maga will be quite different from what we see today. More settled and more in-line with how “KM” views it now.>

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