Myth or Reality: "Most street fights go to the ground.&

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Myth or Reality: "Most street fights go to the ground.&
Original Poster: wuming
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 05-04-2007, 20:30

Orginal Post: wuming: I am sure everyone has heard the statement that “most street fights go to the ground.” I was giving some thought to this statement as was hoping to possible find the truth, or falsity, in it. If this is already a post somewhere else oh well, sorry, just don’t make any comments and send me to the right post. Anyways…

In a 1 v 1 fight — for the sake of simplicity — there are three main combinations of experience that you can run into: both fighters know how to fight, neither fighters know how to fight, or just one fighter knows how to fight. First of all, I wonder where the statistics or generalizations for this statement come from. This statement must come from experiences in at least one of these three categories, so the statistics from each category are going to turn out differently due to the samples themselves.

If neither people know how to fight, it is very easy to see how most of these fights might end up on the ground. Neither person has any training so it is rather easy for either one to lose his balance, or they might get tangled up, or they must just rush each other and attempt to pummel each other to death. I don’t really see problem with the statement here. It does seem very plausible to me that most fights between unexperienced people could easly end up on the ground.

Now the other two categories get a little trickier because if a certain person is experience he might intend to take the fight to the ground because that is where his experience lies or he might try and keep the fight standing up. I find it very difficult here to try and debunk this statement in these two categories because you just might not know the fighter’s intentions — assuming that the experienced fighter is probably going to be more in control of the fight. If both fighter’s are experienced again the situation gets even more complicated. Here each fighter’s training will decide what action he takes and how he responds to the other fighter. If one fighter is a grappler who is trying to take a striker to the ground the fight could still go either way; there is no gaurantee that it will stay standing up or go to the ground. If the striker does not know how to defend himself against a grappler, sure he will go to the ground; but the real test will come in his capablity to defend against the grappler.

Thinking about this statement this way I find it very difficult to assess whether or not it is true or false because of the complications that arise in two out of the three categories. But, I do think that the statement does have some type of wisdom to it when considering the category of two inexperience fighters with no training (especially if they are sloppy drunk). I highly doubt there are any real statistics to back up this statement. I believe that the proof from this statement can only come from anecdotal evidence, which is very very difficult to remove the bias from. All in all, I believe that this statement not quite a fact but still not quite a myth. For some people this statement may be true and for others it might be exaclty the opposite depending on their past experiences or training biases. There are just too many confounding variables to consider when thinking of this statement. At best it is a way of percieving a fight and when thought of this way there is nothing wrong with the statement at all. If that is how you think most fights end up then you will train to fight in that manner and for you that will be reality and it is not incorrect and the same goes if you believe that not all fights go to the ground.

I know I probably just beat a dead horse or over analyzed a simple little statement, but I just wanted to get that out of my head. :D

Post: The BadBoy:

Most fights I have witnessed, end up with one guy on the ground with three or more others beat the shit outta him.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

In my experience, no fights that I’ve been in have ended up on the ground. The only time one person gets on the ground is because he’s been beat down there. To me it’s a myth, because the fight I’ve been in and witnessed, they’ve never gone to a ground fight. That is not to say that it is useless to learn the ground fight.>

Post: Sensei S. Hilaire:

Over the years I have seen many fights. They seem to fall into a few categories:

1. Words are exchanged, posturing happens, one guy makes the pre-emptive strike. The other guy goes down. Winner struts around like a mountain gorilla screaming things like “Yeah! Yeah! You can’t mess with this!” and generally looking like an ass.

2. Couple of guys face off, the punches start flying with no specific target other than the head. The two accidently clinch, fall, roll around, then people pull them off each other. Their friends drag them in opposite directions as they scream curses at each other, and then are told by their specific entourage that they kicked the other guys ass.

3. A trained person is attacked by an idiot. Initially the attack has more force than expected, and the trained person covers his head for a second to get his bearings. Then he easily takes the untrained person down, gets mount, smacks his opponent for a bit while asking him if he’s ready to stop. The winner usually disengages on his own.

4. A big person shoves a small person and takes him completely off his feat. Thats pretty much the end.

NOW – here is the stuff we actually train for – cause all of the above could have been stopped by just walking away. These below are real life situations I have witnessed or been told or read in the paper.

1. Woman is attacked from behind as she crosses an alley. Assailaint wraps his arm around her neck and drags her into the alley. She stumbles. A shoe comes off. She remembers a takedown, gets her leg behind his leg. They both fall to the ground. She wildly strikes with her elbows. One hits her assailant in the face. The other hits the pavement and fractures. She gets up and runs leaving the shoe behind.

2. Judo guy late 40’s attacked by pseudo tae kwon do idiot. TKD poser throws a high kick at the man – basically to impress his friends. Judo guy grabs his leg and uses it as if it was the attackers arm – and tosses him ippon seoi nage onto his face and shoulder. The TKD guy doesnt get up. Judo guy runs to his car and never goes back to that bar.

3. Jujitsu trained police officer is stabbed when he misses a block against the knife thrust. Luckily he is wearing a vest, which the knife cant get through. He is poked through the skin at the side of his abdomen, but the knife doesnt puncture into any organs. The knife gets stuck in the vest and the assailant cannot pull it back out. When the officer comes out of the momentary shock, he grabs the assailants arm and figure 4’s it backward taking the attacker to the ground. He finished the arrest with a knife stuck in his vest.

4. And the one The BadBoy posted – absolutely correct. I have seen this at least 5 times. One guy I know ended up getting a boot to the orbital crest of his eye while he lay on the pavement. He had to have an operation to make his face look normal. All started when someone grabbed his girls ass in a crowd.>

Post: parallax86:

half the fights iv been in have ended up on the ground , outa the other half maybe a third have ended in a standin clinch .

whats iv noticed is usually 2 untrained guys will start off swingin at each other , one guy will get rocked and if he doesnt get koed its instinctive to grab hold so he cant get hit any more. dependin on the other guys balance , that usually determines if a fight goes down to the ground or not .>

Post: Americanfreestylerules:

When I has in high school their was a fight pretty much every other week. Not counting the incidents when people would just push each other and bump chests. Most of the time the fight would begin standing up with punches and then someone would grab the other person and the fight would go to the ground. But it wasn’t the ground fighting Judo and Ju-Jitsu people are use to. (Well maybe for a hardcore Ju-jitsu person) It has mainly the two guys on their ground punching as hard as they could. And if the fight didn’t go to the ground then usually the guys would be standing up grapping each other and punching.>

Post: thebgbb:

Nearly every fight that I have seen or been in has gone to the ground. This has to be taken in cotext, though: In mose cases, someone got knocked to the ground and the person still standing didn’t want to stop. Also, they didn’t have the presence of mind to kick them while they were down (or maybe there was an inherent stigma against it), so they jump on top of the felled opponent and continue swinging.

In context, it’s reasonable that every fight will go to the ground, but that is no reason to actively TAKE the fight to the ground.>

Post: BYucko:

Well eventually, yes, someone gets KTFO’ed and goes to the ground….

I’m a black belt in TKD, but even training with all this kickology for years and years I still find myself taking fights to the ground. From all the MMA I watch, I usually have a sense of it. Seems much less risky taking it to the ground in a way. Just watch your arms and neck.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=BYucko Seems much less risky taking it to the ground in a way. Just watch your arms and neck.[/quote 

And that your head doesn’t get stomped.>

Post: zefff:

LMAO! yeah cos all the Pride Ive been watching has given me more of a sense of how to apply Wandy style stomps!>

Post: thebgbb:

Sounds like BYucko has a black belt in UFC and Pride in addition to TKD.

That reminds me: I just read about a guy over at Bullshido that just got a black belt in Vale Tudo from Ashida Kim. Hilarious!!>

Post: BYucko:

[quote=Hengest [quote=BYucko Seems much less risky taking it to the ground in a way. Just watch your arms and neck.[/quote 

And that your head doesn’t get stomped.[/quote 

Well when I’m watching my neck, I find my head a-ok.>

Post: opariser1001:

you have no ground experience Byucko? well good luck “watching your arms and neck” when you find yourself going against someone who has ground experience. it’s not as easy as it sounds>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=BYucko Well when I’m watching my neck, I find my head a-ok.[/quote 

Have you ever tried to take it to the ground in a real fight? You might be in for a shock…>

Post: BYucko:

[quote=Hengest [quote=BYucko Well when I’m watching my neck, I find my head a-ok.[/quote 

Have you ever tried to take it to the ground in a real fight? You might be in for a shock…[/quote 

Well I took it to the ground against a self-proclaimed boxer…so I guess that doesn’t count…

So I guess the shock comes when it does.>

Post: zefff:

self proclaimers are almost always the biggest assholes. If I got 50p for every British champ Ive ever come across I would be rolling in it!>

Post: NidStyles:

I would say the biggest shock on the ground is how quickly you lose sense of what is happening. Next would be how fast the other guy disables you.>

Post: MNK_Luke:

The few fights Have been in or seen end up usually with one person on the ground, only a few have had both people on the ground.>

Post: 1bloKO:

this is my outlook on this whole situation
scenario1. 1v1 fight and his boys are there-DO NOT FOLLOW HIM TO THE GROUND!!!!IF YOU DO HIS FRIENDS WILL STOMP YOUR GUTS OUT

scenario2. 1v1 both your boys are there-ITS RISKY BUT IF YOU KNOW YOUR FRIENDS WILL BACK YOU UP THEN TAKE HIM DOWN

scenario3. 1v1 no boys are there its just the two fighters- HELL YEA TAKE HIM TO THE GROUND>

Post: catchtom:

if you are in a fight and his friends are there and they want to jump in, it doesn’t matter if you are on the ground or not you will get stumped. if 2 or more guys that is about the same size as you or bigger want to take you to the ground and stump you, that is where you are going. all this talk about multiple apponents is full of craps. if 2 or more guys want to kick your butt and you can’t run fast enough then you better hope they don’t beat you too bad. Its best not to fight back cause if you do, you are in for more of a beating. I am a small guy, 140 pound, 5’8; must guys that want to fight me are 6 feet, 190 and up. I have never met anyone smaller than me that wants to fight me. I live in a bad neighborhood and i am asian. people want to kick my butt just because i look different. I’ve been attack for no reason, by people i have never met or spoken too. I’ve even been attacked from behind by people I have never seen for no reason. I have been knocked out 2 times. Maybe I can’t take a punch, but being 140lb and getting hit by someone that outweight you by 60 pounds does major damage. I train martial art to defend myself, but I am realistic. I know if I get hit with a solid shot I am done. I’ve also know that my punching power isn’t great. I can bench 205 but still I am 140 lbs and the guys that want to fight me is usually 190 and up(once it was with a fat guy that weight like 260). I’ve notice that most guys that think they can beat people with puching and kicking are usually 6′ tall and 200 lbs. hey if I was that big i would stand and punch and kick too.
its always the guy that weight 250 pound that is telling me “hey you need to through your body into your punches”. He wants me to stand there and trade punches with a guy that is 110 pounds more than me. give me a break. I’ve been in enough fights to know that I can’t take a punch from a big guy. has anyone notice that most martial art always has one guy through one punch and the other guy would through like 500 different moves at the attacker while the attacker stands there.

Read this carefully:
In real life no one will stand there while you punch him in the face, twist his arm, kick him in the groin, sweep him, and god knows what else you imagine in your head. I believe and have experience that if two people are standing then it is one action for one reaction and vice versa. as soon as you through a punch, your opponent will either punch back , move, grab, kick etc. He will not stand there while you do your demonstration. look back at your technic, do you have any technic that will work one for one or does all your technic require you to do 2 or more action for his one action. Unless you are flash, what makes you think you are so fast that you can pull off 2 or move actions(moves) to his one.

i am a beginner so please forgive me if i have offended anyone. this is just my thoughts.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

1bloKO: you’re stupid.

Catchtom: Welcome to the forum. You essentially caught the correct. Now, all you have to do is start training Kali and carrying a knife everywhere and you won’t get hassled nearly as much in your neighborhood. It doesn’t matter how big they are, they still need bleed on the inside rather than on the out. ;-)>

Post: 1bloKO:

how in the world am i stupid?? and isnt it beter to go down guns ablazin then take it like a little sissy…….i got too much pride for that>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=1bloKO how in the world am i stupid?? and isnt it beter to go down guns ablazin then take it like a little sissy…….i got too much pride for that[/quote 

How are you stupid: Because you think that you can break down fights into easy-bake categories and then come up with a single solution to each category. 1 on 1, you want to take him down? Then you find out he wanted to be on the ground because he’s got the submissions skills and you get broken. Good job, you really thought out your contingency plans.

Is it better to go down guns blazing or take it like a sissy: It’s best to not go down at all, and that means you have to approach combat with a lot more intelligence than pride.>

Post: thebgbb:

Quote:
How are you stupid: Because you think that you can break down fights into easy-bake categories and then come up with a single solution to each category. 1 on 1, you want to take him down? Then you find out he wanted to be on the ground because he’s got the submissions skills and you get broken. Good job, you really thought out your contingency plans.

Is it better to go down guns blazing or take it like a sissy: It’s best to not go down at all, and that means you have to approach combat with a lot more intelligence than pride.

***thebgbb holds his hands up into the air***

Preach that holy word, Brother Tickle!! Can I hear an “Amen”?

***woman in the audience shouts “Amen”***

Thank you Sister! Can I hear a “Hallellujah”?

***congregation leaps to their feet screaming “Hallellujah”***

Bless him, Laaawwwwd! Tell it like it iiiiisss, brother…>

Post: dscott:

I was going to start to back you up because you were attacked so quickly but then you said this.

[quote=1bloKO i got too much pride for that[/quote 

Give me a break. If you’re fighting for pride, you’re fighting for the wrong reasons.>

Post: bamboo:

catchtom:

Welcome.
Nice post as your first, I look forward to discussing things with you and what seems to be sorely lacking in many, your great grasp of common sense.

-bamboo>

Post: catchtom:

bamboo, you are saying I lack common sense? Nice. May I ask what is your suggestion? Do I lack common sense by saying that I don’t think it is realistic to fight multible attackers? When being attacked, one can not choose his attacker. Aggressive people only pick on those smaller than them. I would like to learn how I may defend/defeat against someone larger than I am without using a weapon(hand to hand). Seriously can someone help me. I would appreciate your honest knowledge.>

Post: zefff:

:D I love the internet!

Catchtom, I dont think Bamboo was being mean. I read it that he meant others had a lack of common sense.>

Post: loadedmaggot:

well catchtom i have been in some fights and im no god and take what i say with a grain of salt but in fights that i have been in where it was 2 people the one who runs their mouth the most and is going to be the one to likely throw the first punch. that is the one u need to send a life altering blow to and its gotta be quick and unexpected to the face and in my expirience he would be dazed enough that both of them would stand there and be to afraid to advance but also i have had it back fire and been pounded. but like i said dont do what i do im just sharing personal expierience but also it is also best to just aviod the confrontation and only do what you must do to protect your safety. I have studied martial arts and was an mp in military and am now training mma arts and i am skilled but i am not the best but ill be the first to tell you when it hits the streets its not anywhere near the regulation. Common sense yes but like catchtom said u can replay it in your head all you want but its not going to be anything like it and alot of what you do in the ring isnt going to help u>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

catchtom: Bamboo was definitely extending you a compliment. I think everyone here appreciates your view as it is obviously more accurate to reality than most.>

Post: bamboo:

Catchtom,

It was a compliment. I was insinuating that very few people I have met have a grasp for what I see as “common sense”, not only regarding the martial arts but in general.

Intentions are easily misinterpreted on the internet as the written word seldom reflects tone. Mine is positive in this regard.

-bamboo>

Post: wuming:

Catchtom:

While you are entitled to your opinion, I do believe it is possible to fight multiple opponents. The art that I practice specializes in fighting multiple opponents. I am not going to get into the details, but I train for these situations everytime I train. The key to fighting multiple opponents lies in quick footwork, proper angular adjustment, and handling each oponent in the quickest most effecient way. Say you are being attacked by 3 men: one in front and two to the side. Obviously the most prominent threat is the man closest to you. He will be the one you will deal w/ first because of his closer range. Let’s say for the case of the example he is the guys to the left. When he attacks or you first attack you should place your self behind him to put him between yourself and your other two opponents. This is the key point here. Using the properly trained footwork you will place yourself in an optimal possition for defending and attacking. If you are quick enough you should be behind this opponent with the other two out of range for the time being so you can handle this opponent singularly. All this being said it should last only few short seconds, if even that much at all. When you train yourself to fight this way, I believe that it is possible to handle multiple opponents. Granted it is not an easy chore, but what is? I would rather take my chances than just say “ah f*ck it there are three of them and one of me, I might as well curl up into a ball and let them pound me” (given the fact that all other precautions to avoid the fight have been exhausted).

This is my belief, and you have your belief. I am not trying to start an argument, just add another viewpoint with a different perspective. You don’t have to agree with me, and I am not asking you to. Thanks for the good, well informed and stated post and welcome to the forum.>

Post: catchtom:

bamboo, sorry i misunderstood you.

Wuming, you are right, the key is that you are fast enough. I spar with guys every other day, full force, no holding back and i find it so difficult fighting one person that out weight me only 20 pounds. I can’t imagine if it is 2 person. I have been “Jumped” 3 times. everytime they all jumped on me and then one guy would punch me and the others would kick me once i am on the gound. It didn’t really hurt, the only thing that hurt was my ego. after about 30 seconds or so they would let me go. I would then go home with a little blood in my mouth and a couple of bumps and bruises. If I fought back they would beat me till i could no longer fight back and that may be when i’m dead.

I think if you are going to fight a bigger guy, you must somehow tire him out, because when he is tired he will be slow, and his strenght will be equal to you. only then will you have a better (higher percentage) chance of beating him(one on one). (If it is multiple then chances are you will be the one getting tired.) You must find a way to control your opponents movement, because if he is moving a lot then hitting him with clean shots will be difficult. I do not have one punch knock out power so i will need to hit someone clean several times to take them out. How to tire an attacker out and how to control them without going to the ground, that question I have no answere for. (sorry, my knowledge is limited).

oh i have one question, how do you punch someone without breaking your hand? I broke my right hand when i was younger from a punch i threw to his head. I wasn’t really aiming at anything, we were just swinging like crazy. After I broke my hand the guy started kicking my butt. I couldn’t even close my fist.

I only use moves that i have used live. Meaning i tell my opponent what i’m going to do to them and if i can still pull it off then i know it works. I practice until i can pull it off against an opponent that knows what i’m about to do and is not willing to let me do it. This is when i know my technics work. every time i try and pull off the move i notice something wrong in the way i apply it and i try to fix it and even this doesn’t always work. I can’t imagine using a technic that i have never tried on an resisting opponent.

I used to practice boxing(speed bag, heavy bag, shadow box) a lot but never really sparred with anyone. Everyone use to say “danm your hands are fast” and i thought i was the bomb. one day i sparred with a bigger guy with no boxing experience and he knocked me down so many times it wasn’t funny. Punching bags and air is no where near punching a resisting opponent(one that punch back). I watched the tape and saw that I looked like an idiot. From then on, I learned that nothing can replace a live partner. all martial art where meant to be used on a live opponent not a bag or wooden dummy. I felt that if all i fought were bags, wooden dummy, and air then that is all my technics are good for.

i don’t regret spending all that time practicing, it was a learning experience.

As for fights going to the ground, all fights go to the ground unless they are stopped(by bystanders or both fighter decide to stop) because at least one person will fall either lost of balance or get knocked down. this is the situation with the fights i have been in. Unfortunetly I was usually the one that got knocked down to the ground.

I have never been in a fight with a smaller guy, I have never thrown the first punch. Maybe that is my problem.

Somehow since I have practice BJJ I have never been in a fight. I stand up for myself now I guess. I don’t let those big guys pick on me. When they talk crap I talk crap right back and it usually ends right there. I used to just sit there quitely and then they would come over and start crap with me(ask me for money) or hit me. These people have nothing better to do. I don’t even know them, why should I give them money.

Since learning BJJ, I feel more confident. I have sparred with guys 240 pounds and I have beaten them with little effort. They get upset and always want a rematch. Some people say I’m strong, but I like to think its strong technics. This is all thanks to my instructor. He is the best.

thanks all for reading my post. Once again please forgive me if I offended anyone, that is not my intension but thru contravercy there is knowledge.

oh, Wuming, can you tell me what style you practice and how much do you weight? If you are small like me and you believe your style works then I will give it a try. I hope your school is near me. If what you say is true then I will owe you big time. I heard it is hard to find a school so I would like to try your school. thank you wuming (the reason I curl up into a ball is because if it was me, i would hit the guy until he stops moving). but trust me, while they are hitting me, i will be begging for their mercy. better alive then dead.

sorry for the long post>

Post: loadedmaggot:

u just said u spared every day then u said u never spared before just curious which is it?>

Post: loadedmaggot:

catchtom i really must compliment on your honesty and in this world of “hype of the net” u dont lie in saying ur the one getting knocked down
that says alot>

Post: Master_Mind:

* fights I have witnessed…

1- A guy goes to this other dude asking him why he’s calling his girl, from the way the boyfriend acts i see that he thinks he’s big so he gonna take the other dude out, out of a party, girls are around, start screaming, the other dude starts cooling it down saying sorry that he didnt know its his girl while the BF there to fight any way n he’s so mad, and a sucker punch begins the whole thing, BANG…the BF got the start but never knew that being big and fat makes him powerfull but too slow, as soon as the dude starts jumpin around here and there and throw some punchs the BF gets more tired, n boom he landed on the ground being the guy ontop of him throwing mad punchs to the face making the ppl breaking it out.

2- A guy at my uni, comes into the class put his books in the front seat n goes to the bathroom, the “BAD BOYS” of the class gets in, takes the dudes books n throw’em at the back seat n take the front line, the dude comes in saw that his chair has been taken, gets mad and say it loud, “move my books again and you’ll see what im gonna do” that was more like ” ROUND ONE..FIGHT ” … 4 to 5 guys of the gang stood up and started punching the shit outta the dude, while he cant block shit or even run, the teacher and the security with some friends comes to break it up… controlled 3 of the gang out of the class, the other 2 see the girls around them ” YUP SHOW OFF TIME ” starting dissing the dude out and banging him with chairs, the fight ends with the 5 guys walking with a ” S ” on thier chests while the dude took a blood bath. NOTE hat all 5 of em cant even fight man Vs man.

* Fights ive been through:

Dont wanna mention fights i won in, those are Fights that i cant forget…

1- this was few years ago..My friend gets into a fight with 4 dudes, i jump in 1 of the guys runs away, my friend is on top of a guy, im on top of a guy while i didnt notice the 2rd guy coming from my back and BOOM my head of with a bat, GODDAMN i felt my head reached the floor and got back, i couldnt hear or see for while since the hit was abit close to my right ear, i stood up for him, the dude runs away, im struggling to stay standing, i fall and wake up next day in the hospital, i never saw the guys again.

2- A fight starts out of the mall, i go there with couple of friends… SUDDENLY i see this dude from the fight jumps in garpping me and goes like ” WHY ARE YOU LAUGHING?? WHY ARE YOU LAUGHING ” im like get the fuck outta here i aint laughing n i pushed him, once i pushed him i see this whole gang comes towards me screaming why did you push him, while im cant even see my friends since they got me trapped in a circul, one of them wanted to start it with a kick, i step back, reverse punch to the face, and poooooof, run away into the mall. next at the same night, i get a phone call from this dude telling me that the guys you had a fight with aplogizing for you since they thought that you’re on of the other gang they had a fight with, DAMN i was bout to get my ass kicked by a fucking MISTAKE!!>

Post: catchtom:

i spare in bjj not stand up. i have fought in naga world championship 2004, grapplers edge, battle at the beach. i have only had 2 or 3 experience stand up/boxing, and it was not in class but at a friends\my house and one in a boxing ring. and that was years ago. I don’t think sparing is once every year or when 2 guys get together and through a couple of punches for 2 minutes. if you call my boxing and kicking is sparing then wow i guess i have alot of experience. I don’t appreciate being called a liar.
its hard for me to tell my experience, but after reading so much and being taught stuff that doesn’t work for so long, it sucks getting beaten by asssolll. if you guys misunderstood me then i am sorry. but i am not a liar. I don’t want to say much about my personal life but you guy make me so stupid that i am going to say this: I live in plainfield nj. I’ve lived in plainfield since 3rd grade. I’ve been beaten for a stick of gum by steve , i’ve been spit in the face because a girl like me and didn’t like him and jumped by another kid and his friend who is now in jail christofer, i’ve had my face kicked in by phil at evergreen over a pencil that i didn’t give him and after he beat me, every other week for months people in that school took turn picking fights with me, i’ve been sucker punch by a 2 guys i never met before at dunellon train station while waiting for my sister to pick me up(knocked my tooth out, the police station was right next door and a cop was parked in the parking lot and saw me fall to the ground and stop them as they were walking away, they told the cop the accidentally bumped into me.)

I was the only asian kid in an all black school.
I was asked for money while walking in a walgreen and i ignore them, so when i got out they jumped me. this is the crap i had to deal with, and now you guys call me a liar. I’ve learned technics from people who have no real fight experience and all it got me was beaten up more, and i haven’t even mention the fights i’ve been in that are one on one. when i say i haven’t really spare i meant on the stand up not ground, how can i practice bjj without sparing? come on give me a break. I am a blue belt now. I am not good at bjj, infact i am the worst blue belt in my class, the only ones that i can beat are beginners. but i did win my first bjj tounament with 3 submission(grapplers edge), nagaworld 2 place with 2 sub and one on points, battle at the beach 3 rd place and a 1st place at a local tournament. I am a beginner and i do not want to say anything that would shame my schools name. I respect my instructor, and my school. Please do not let anything i say reflect on my school, if you guys don’t believe what i say i will prove as much as possible.

when i say i never really spare, i mean in the standup, i am not one of those guys that put on the gloves and head gear a couple of times and think I am sparing, making it seem like i’ve done alot. i consider myself with no stand up sparing experience. I consider myself having sparing experience on the ground because that is what i do everytime i am in class. i don’t go to class everyday because my body can only handle so much. I would if i could but the joints ache. I never say i have a lot of experience in anything. even if i do i would never say such a thing. i don’t even consider myself an average fighter. there are lots of guys in my class that can kick the crap out of me. when you get tapped out as much as i have been tapped out you learn to be humble. i am here to learn not to say how great i am because i am far from it. i know what i am saying is going to come back and bite me in the aaa but i am so upset that someone would call me a liar. the reason i even post because i wish someone would help me when i was younger and help me now. i want to learn, the web is a heaven of knowledge. Here i can learn so much from many people. i used to believe when someone teach you a move, you can go out and use it and that it would work. Then i would get my butt kicked using it to defend myself. no one told me that i would have to practice it over and over and over and even then the move only had a 30% chance of working. when i saw royce defeat those guys in ufc and on gracie in action, it gave me so much hope, the little guy can win. i never expect to beat multiple apponents, i would like to just be able to defend myself with a single aggressor. you guys don’t know how it feels to have someone make fun of you, and put you down, pushing you, hitting you,cursing at you and all you can do is walk away. I wouldn’t even say anything back because they were bigger. there are so many instances that i can’t say them all. it sucks. what the hell is wrong with people? why do they find joy out of making others suffer? now if someone bigger put me down, i speak up for myself.

if i had a stand up game, i would not bother to ask for help. I still have hope that other forms of martial art can help me further my study.

if you read the part where i never really spare, its in the context to boxing\standup.

and when i say i spare everyother day, I mean in bjj which is on the ground. aaaaahhhhhhhhhhh….

I am not a liar.
anyway, you are intitle to your opinion.

once again i am sorry if i offend anyone, and that my thoughts are in no way reflect uppon my school. These are my thoughts and my thoughts alone. My instructor and the people at my school are very humble and friendly, all around great people. I owe alot to my school, so please, you guys can dislike me, bash me, but my school should not be shamed. thank you for understanding.>

Post: loadedmaggot:

well catchtom i dont think ur a liar and i value ur opinion but i was just confused and ur not going to offend any one here… if trianed with a low level pro fighter names jack garner who was a marine who went on to be a cop and was jsut the kinda like a non shitty version of tank abott i learned alot from him and now i try to train off and on with pat miletich but that gets way to expensive to keep up on but in my own fights i have been in i try to not be a stand up fight since im bigger i try to go straignt for a take down or draw a first punch and go for over power now it doesnt always work for sure but the instances where they dont work it seemed to be the person would go for a low tackle throw in a knee and that idea went out real quick now i havent been in that situation like u see in onine videos where guy is on the bottom and takes a kick to the face thank god because that is just something i jsut dont want expirience but its also whhy i spend alot of my time ground trainng to i can try to avoid that and i know im not the fastest striker and i know if its a stand up i may lose a chance and be taken down so i go straight for the so called ground n pound right away>

Post: eagerdragon:

Cathom

It is very much possible to fight multiple opponents at once, but it really depends on your determination and training. You must first realize there is a huge difference between sparring and fighting. Sparring is done with rules and is done with the intention of not seriously hurting or damaging your opponent. When you are in a real H2H combat situation, and the only prize at the end of the day is your life or health then that is a fight. The key to winning some of those fights you are in is to go in with the intention of it’s either me or him/them. If the guy is larger than you go for the soft points i.e. neck, joints, free ribs, etc. If you are fighting multiple opponents every strike should be thrown with bad intentions. I know you may not want to hurt anyone, because you seem very apologetic, but if your life is on the line “niceness” must be forgotten.

Learning techniques is a good thing, but learning technique can be very damaging to the wrong person. In my style of CMA (Cantonese Hung Gar), every move in our form is a technique and we must know how to use them all. Although my Sifu teaches/critiques the techniques and makes us proficient in each, he stresses that in a real fight you must be able to adjust these techniques to the situation. All techniques are not good for everyone or every situation. You must come up with or use techniques (from your style) that suit you. To do this practice your sets/forms until they are second nature, then practice each section separately and come up with techniques you think will work. Once you have these techniques, ask your classmate/teacher if you could try some techniques you have been working on and test yourself.

I have been in and I have witnessed many fights and curling up never seemed smart unless it is your “last” option.>

Post: catchtom:

i know that sparring and fighting are two diff thing. I do use everything that i do know how when i get into a fight. once a guy head lock me and threw me to the ground(this was before i learned bjj) and he had me in something like the wrestlers craddle, he started punching me and elbowing me to the face, i tried to poke his eyes out, but that didn’t work, and then i bit him and he let me go. but he stood up while i was still on the ground and he soccer kicked me in the face. Somehow i don’t remember it hurting. although i didn’t get to punch him at all and his face didn’t have a scratch he did go to the hospital, thats what i heard. My face was a mess. I would really like to see a little guy beat a big guy in stand up for once. like a guy who is 150 lb vs a 220 lb guy. is this possible? 2 fit fighters standing up. thank you for everyones advice, i truely appreciate it. thanks>

Post: zefff:

If you have a ‘dont want to fight’ attitude (as most law abiding people do) then I would suggest getting away ASAP.

winning is surviving/escaping not destroying the threat. At the end of the day it doesnt matter what some one tells you or trys to teach you, you will only fight more than one person successfully if you really want to do it and feel it inside.

Mind, even taking a bit of a kicking might be considered winning in retrospect. Look at your life and what youve gained from surviving the encounters and then imagine the future of the scumbags whos confidence in ignorance is further inflated.>

Post: catchtom:

zefff,
that is a really good point, i never look at it that way. I guess i did win because i’m still here to talk about it. Thanks>

Post: zefff:

no worries man,

I hope I dont need to tell you that you should be retrospective after every bit of sparing too. When you tap and lose is when you should be scrutinising yourself the most because thats when you can learn to develop strategies and truely sharpen your technique, flow and body mechanics etc, that can make up for any atheletic shortcomings.

NOI and honestly not meaning to be patronising at all, peace.

zefff>

Post: loadedmaggot:

hey catchtom?? just out of couriosity how have these “jumpings” affected u up till today? do u find your self more angry? scared? or more confident? cuase i mean im not a small guy as u are but i also am not the “enforcer” who looks to fuck up a small guy to gain a name. i dont have a whole of expirience in multiple attacks only the few i mentioned but when i look back and on the ones where i ” hit a guy so hard that the others didnt wanna interact” i think to myself how unsure i really was and how much they really coulda put a hurt on my if they were to advance..>

Post: catchtom:

Hi loaded, I don’t know how it has effected me. I’m not scared, but that doesn’t mean I will pick a fight. I’m somewhat angry that it happen to me. I will do everything in my power not to let it happen again that is for sure. I am more confident and more aware. Now a days when people pick on me I speak up, they usually back down. But if they don’t then I will run, hehehehe… But so far no one has stood up and do anything yet. thank goodness. I think since i have been bullied most of my life, that is why i won’t take crap from anyone any more. I don’t pick on others because i can never forget what happen to me. I am always polite, specially to those that are weaker than i am. for example if a little guy cuts me in line i will let it go or say politly that what he is doing is not right and unfair, but if a big guy cuts me, i will not have it. I will speak my mind. Some how big guys or people in group see politness as a sign of weakness. That is just my experience. I am usually wrong so please don’t be offended.>

Post: loadedmaggot:

i have that same problem i have always been a nice guy and i was raised with respect and manors and i also was in military which really helped to re enforce that and that is my problem. im a gentleman and a polite guy and others take that as a sign of weak ness.. and with my training that i have done i know how to hurt people if need be.. and when others try to press on me i just dont do ne thing unless im in sure harms way.. others take this as a sign of being weak becuase im being smarter.. i dont want to hurt any one and hell i dont wanna get hurt. and whether or not u win a fight ur still gonna get hurt. its just not worth it. but the problem is men and ego. and like u i dnt want to offend ne one im just speakin expirience>

Post: wuming:

Catchtom,

I practice Pa Kua Chang and weigh about 145-155 pounds (I haven’t weighed myself in a while). Here is a website you can go to to learn more and see if there is a school near you. I really do appreciate your insight.

www.pa-kua.com>

Post: Nihang:

[quote=wuming Catchtom:

While you are entitled to your opinion, I do believe it is possible to fight multiple opponents. The art that I practice specializes in fighting multiple opponents. I am not going to get into the details, but I train for these situations everytime I train. The key to fighting multiple opponents lies in quick footwork, proper angular adjustment, and handling each oponent in the quickest most effecient way. Say you are being attacked by 3 men: one in front and two to the side. Obviously the most prominent threat is the man closest to you. He will be the one you will deal w/ first because of his closer range. Let’s say for the case of the example he is the guys to the left. When he attacks or you first attack you should place your self behind him to put him between yourself and your other two opponents. This is the key point here. Using the properly trained footwork you will place yourself in an optimal possition for defending and attacking. If you are quick enough you should be behind this opponent with the other two out of range for the time being so you can handle this opponent singularly. All this being said it should last only few short seconds, if even that much at all. When you train yourself to fight this way, I believe that it is possible to handle multiple opponents. Granted it is not an easy chore, but what is? I would rather take my chances than just say “ah f*ck it there are three of them and one of me, I might as well curl up into a ball and let them pound me” (given the fact that all other precautions to avoid the fight have been exhausted).

This is my belief, and you have your belief. I am not trying to start an argument, just add another viewpoint with a different perspective. You don’t have to agree with me, and I am not asking you to. Thanks for the good, well informed and stated post and welcome to the forum.[/quote 

excellent, i use the same strategies in my training :D>

Post: loadedmaggot:

i personally feel that those who say it is possible to fight multiple opponents have never attempted it before or seen to many movies.. yes there is that grace of god stroke of luck but bottom line is if this “group” wants to fuck u up it will>

Post: goongaloonga:

the only real situation where I saw someone take on multiple attackers was the video of Mike V beating up four guys outside a gas station, but he just punched them a few times, he didn’t really subdue them permanently, and they weren’t on him all at once>

Post: loadedmaggot:

in that video he only really fought one person too he threw a couple throws just to scare the others and they never threw punches at him to be fair>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

The only time I’ve seen somebody successfully beat a group of people was when this kid Dewayne was getting arrested for dealing. He jacked one cop in the eye, stole his gun and the rest backed off. Kid could hop a fence, too, I tell ya.>

Post: goongaloonga:

http://www.muchosucko.com/video-chinesemantakesonthreeguys.html here’s a video of a guy with three guys attacking him>

Post: goongaloonga:

http://content.collegehumor.com/media/movies/skaterfight.wmv here’s the mike v vid>

Post: Master_Mind:

[quote=goongaloonga http://www.muchosucko.com/video-chinesemantakesonthreeguys.html here’s a video of a guy with three guys attacking him[/quote 
Thanks for the site, its off the hook!!>

Post: goongaloonga:

no problem>

Post: NeverMan:

[quote=loadedmaggot ….but bottom line is if this “group” wants to fuck u up it will[/quote 

Totally agree. It is all about intent and the willingness to take the fight to death.

If the group has no intention of doing serious harm and the victim is willing to go all the way as fast as he can, then I think it’s possible. I must say I have never seen it, I just think it’s possible in that scenario.>

Post: loadedmaggot:

after some long thougth process i have seen two fights where two of my friends beat up multiple attackers and won but these we exceptions. first one was a nasty sick boxer who grew upa straight gang banger and some high school kids tried to jump him and he won strictly from his talent and their lack in size it was over in his four swings it took to take out four people. the next one is a old friend who was about six foot six and three hundred pounds of all steriods and he took on five people becuase they were once again very small and he was so drugged up they couldnt keep him down and he knocked two out and after messin up a third pretty bad they all gave up but i still feel that numbers will win when they intend to and not in these type of special cases>

Post: vladimir:

catchtom

I believe that once you become skilled and expert in most martial arts it won’t matter as much the person’s size. It’s important to be strong in martial arts but it’s even more important to know how to perform different techniques in stress and in situation you maybe put in. For example a choke is going to be just as effective on someone who is 5’8 and someone who is 6’0. I hope your own martial arts classes are helping you out.>

Post: JCSamurai:

This post makes me really thankfull for my sensei. I really hate to be the one who brings up the “Aikido” thing again, But I have to say it has served me well in the street. I don’t believe in luck, so it wasn’t luck.

God and Skill (Not Bragging though) Honestly.

I have had to defend myself in at least 3 situations where I had to defend against multiple attackers (Outside of the dojo) however only one time was it against people who were really trying do more than prove a point.

Christmas time 2004 4 guys hitting on a girl at the mall etc. etc. etc.
The principles of
A) “You stop moving you die”
B) “Deal quickly with one and move on”
C) “Stay calm”
D) “Don’t react, respond

These things helped me.

I don’t have much of a ground fight, I know take downs but grappling I’m ignorant too, so I refuse to go to the ground, even if I pummle the guy,

This was one of the times I became a true believer in Aikido,
Aikido emphasizes defense against multiple attackers and
Not being stagnant enough to be (grabbed) thrown to the ground.

my .02 cents>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

My philosophy for fighting multiple attackers has been to mess up the first one so bad that the rest of the group will back off. In the event that they don?t (or I can?t isolate one assailant), then I run?..fast (this is where Wushu comes in handy: jumping over bushes and fences that my attackers have to crawl over or go around).>

Post: LeiQuan:

I thought I might reply to this thread since I just had an in depth conversation with a couple of friends of mine. One does BJJ, the other kung fu at The University of Queensland kung fu club in Brisbane, Australia. I don’t know much about anything myself. It’s interesting that the BJJ guy trains for one-on-one competition and the kung fu guy only trains to survive so-called “street fights”. That is, his club’s training focusses entirely on surviving multiple attacker situations and they regularly train being attacked by up to seven guys. In these attacks, depending on the level, the rules may vary but often include NHB, full contact, eye-gouging etc. It’s a Southern Mantis/tong long type style I think, but with a twist of reality-based. This is basically how the conversation ran:

BJJ mate: “95% of street fights go to the ground so if you haven’t done any ground work and some guy with any idea of how to handle himself on the ground comes up against you and you both go to the ground then you’re gonna get choked out”

KF mate: “well you better not go to the ground then”

BJJ mate: “yeah but 95% go to the ground”

KF mate: “be the 5% that don’t”

BJJ mate: “it’s not so easy against a guy who knows how to take you down.”

KF mate: “it’s not so easy to take down a guy who really doesn’t want to go down there, who knows how bad it gets down there and what can happen, and has spent much effort learning and training how not to go down there”

BJJ mate: “but if you end up on the ground, what are you going to do?”

KF mate: “don’t end up on the ground”

BJJ mate: “but 95% of fights end up on the ground”

KF mate: “sounds like marketing to me. Look, why do you want to go to the ground in a survival situation when this is the absolute worst place ever to be? It is one thing when it is just you and one other, and you are both on the ground. But even then if you start getting in trouble, you’ve already lost several degrees of freedom. You’re on the ground. S/he’s on top of you. You can’t flee. There is less room to reposition. So you are are still alive, yes, but with less degrees of freedom – less options. When it is your life at stake, you want options. In the ring, under watch of a thousand spectators, with a referee, you always have one BIG option that you don’t have in so-called “street” fights. You can OPT to tap out, or throw in the towel. In a true survival situation this option is lost, so you want to keep as many others in your pocket as you can. Now, add a touch more realism – it’s not just the two of you; he has friends. Maybe you can wrestle one guy, if you are incredible, two, but can you wrestle a crowd? Go to the ground and you get your head stomped, your spleen, liver and kidney’s ruptured, a haemopneumothorax. Someone has time to grab a stick or pull out their knife. No options left.

BJJ mate: (silent for a bit) “Yeah but if the fight goes to the ground…”

KF mate: “Don’t go to the ground”

BJJ mate: “Yeah, but if it does”

KF mate: “Don’t go to the ground. I don’t know anything much about wrestling, and if I was training to be a great wrestler and be invincible in competition, maybe I’d try to take everyone down and then go for submission as quick as possible. I don’t know. But I’m training for survival. I’ll do everything I can to keep on my feet and keep moving. I don’t want to wrestle even if I’m on my feet. Keep moving, moving moving.”

BJJ mate: “yeah but if it goes to the ground wouldn’t you be better off if you’d learnt how to grapple a bit. At least you’d have some kind of chance at getting back up”

KF mate: “true, I’ve never trained the ground and while there are similarities between how you move when on the ground and how you move on the feet, I would be a fish out of water. I hate it down there. I don’t ever want to go there. If I did you can bet I would fight like absolutely crazy to get back up. We do end up on the ground on occassions, and all we learn from being there is what a terrible place it is to be – lots of poking fingers and punching fists and big shoes coming from every direction. But, I think that training to go to the ground is dangerous because it trains you to think that you always have a contingency plan. Yes, another option, but it is an option that leads to less options. Better to turn the cauldrons and throw out the pots. Give yourself only one option, maximise it’s importance in your mind – to stay on your feet or die – and it is amazing how well you stay on your feet”

BJJ mate: “I’m sure it’s not that easy.”

KF mate: “I can assure you it’s not”

BJJ mate: “no one can beat 6 guys anyway. If you had to face 6 guys trying to kill you then you’re screwed”

KF mate: “well you may as well just lie down and let them kill you then…”

BJJ mate: “well you’re stuffed. You can’t tell me you can beat 6 guys.”

KF mate: “I’d never try. I’d probably get killed. Trying to win is the problem here. I am talking survival. Competition is not survival. In terms of martial arts, competition training and survival training are just as different as are dancing and survival training. You don’t have to win. Don’t try to beat the guy = don’t try to wrestle = always keep moving = don’t go to the ground. To put it simply, at the end of it all if you’re not on the ground and still standing, then you HAVE survived haven’t you? All I’m saying is what we do at our club is spend all our time learning how to survive. Competition is great fun. I love watching fighting sports. Most styles, especially the modern styles are founded on the spirit of competition, and almost exclusively one-on-one competition – pitting yourself against one other in a controlled environent. Our style was founded on the spirit of survival. To use whatever it is you as an individual, at whatever level of training, at whatever state of health or preparedness, have available at any given time to survive whatever situation comes your way, however random, left-field or uncontrolled – this is survival. Survival is a big, big problem, because by definition there are no rules to simplify things. Survival is also for everyone: the weak, the tough, the smart the dumb. It’s what we are all doing at every moment of every day, to greater or lesser degrees of success. It is the act of pitching your spirit against adversity and not breaking. It’s the art of turning adversity into advantage. It’s just a different approach. It’s never pretty. It’s very humbling. There’s always the temptation to try to win – to dominate, to triumph, to inflate your own ego, to seek end-points. But, unless there is a huge differential in skill level between the one and the many, the multiple attackers will always “win”, you just have to survive. If at the end of the day you’re still standing, and not on the ground, then maybe this is your victory. It takes a lot of persistence and a different attitude to training that many can’t accept. The result of our training is that rather than feeling more and more confident in self-defence situations, we actually begin to feel more and more threatened – we know what can happen and we want to avoid it. It’s what we do. Some people don’t get this approach – they hate it. We like it. We love it.”

…or something like that.>

Post: DrunkenMaster209:

You have an amazing memory.>

Post: johnny1974:

I have been in quite a few fights and I would have to say it is true. Not all but a large percentage of my fights have.>

Post: opariser1001:

[quote=LeiQuan maximise it’s importance in your mind – to stay on your feet or die – and it is amazing how well you stay on your feet”
[/quote 

Quote:
KF mate: “well you better not go to the ground then”

BJJ mate: “yeah but 95% go to the ground”

KF mate: “be the 5% that don’t”

unfortunately it’s really not like that at all…if he wants to take you down and you have no takedown defense, and he is a skilled grappler, he WILL take you down. and “maximizing the importance” of staying on your feet is meaningless unless you have actual takedown defense. just my two cents.

Quote:
You have an amazing memory.

lmfao!! :lol:>

Post: shurite44:

:lol: It is true, 100% of the street fights I have ever been in went to the ground. My opponent ended up there, I decided to stay standing.>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

This was one of the things that was pounded into me from the time I started to learn fighting. First thing I learned was how to fall to the ground.

I made it a point about a 6 months back to search for fight videos. Real fights, not sporting events.

Almost every one I saw went to the ground. But that was with what appears to be untrained fighters. Even the untrained will try slams and the like.

When the fights were one trained fighter and an untrained fighter it also seemed to go to the ground a lot. Mostly to the trained fighters advantage.

You should not only know how to avoid the takedown. You should also know how to avoid the techniques that happen once on the ground.

Remember Murphy’s Law.>

Post: graham1:

However many attackers you have, you can only realistically fight them one at a time, even if you do end up throwing one into another.

Before I became a security guard, I resolved a few single-punching attacks by blocking & riposting with a kick or a punch. After I became a guard, I never blocked again. Guards are expected to restrain people rather than punching or kicking them out. Magistrates & judges take a dim view of this if you do.

As a guard, I’ve found that putting arm-bars on & taking people to the ground just as they’re kicking off takes the steam out of them, & at 52 years of age I can’t afford to be trading blows with people half my age or younger.>

Post: bamboo:

One thing I find silly is people (not saying posters here :wink: ) talking about takedown defense but not actually testing themselves against real, experienced grapplers.

Sure one kickboxer can stop another kickboxer from taking him down, but lets see the BB standup man stop the equivilant wrestler from picking him up and puting him on his back.

The saying “a strikers chance” means something.

Want to stop someone from taking you down and grappling with you? Learn to grapple.

-bamboo>

Post: Robert_RedBeard:

[quote=bamboo One thing I find silly is people (not saying posters here :wink: ) talking about takedown defense but not actually testing themselves against real, experienced grapplers.

Sure one kickboxer can stop another kickboxer from taking him down, but lets see the BB standup man stop the equivilant wrestler from picking him up and puting him on his back.

The saying “a strikers chance” means something.

Want to stop someone from taking you down and grappling with you? Learn to grapple.

-bamboo[/quote 

Good point.

Train against the best you can find.>

Post: ninja_claws:

I can understand why ground fighting can be considered soo effective
because well
You feel more in control and You know where your opponents body is at
but how many guys have you fought on the ground and them poke your eyes out, or grab your testies
hmm…
thats my defense against the ground
dirty
yes I know
but every time Iv’e been in a fight with a bjj or varisity wrestler
it made me victorious
most guys have nuts, and escape from a jj armbar
and everyone has eyes, they are always an option
arigoto ^_^
this is all opinion and experience though>

Post: bamboo:

but
Quote:
how many guys have you fought on the ground and them poke your eyes out, or grab your testies
hmm…
thats my defense against the ground
dirty
yes I know
but every time Iv’e been in a fight with a bjj or varisity wrestler
it made me victorious

Wow, thats just…wow.

Granted I’m no ground wizard, but I know at least to cover my nuts. And when you go for the eyes, you get armbarred.

-bamboo>

Post: ninja_claws:

so how do you cover your nuts when your arms are all tied up trying to armbar someone????
and also
how do you manage to armbar someone when their doing that???
I would love too know this, then maybe ill start taking jui jitsu again?
have you ever had a guy try and poke your eyes out on the ground
and I’m not trying to offend you, I would like to understand
because like I said
its always worked out with me even with the best of guys>

Post: opariser1001:

wow….
just…wow…..
it’s times like this that I thank God I bookmarked bullshido’s grappling FAQ.

ninjaclaws, please, please, PLEASE for the love of God read the FAQ I am posting. it covers all the nonsense you just posted and any other nonsense you might have in your head.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18221

it won’t take that long to read it and it could actually change your thinking about something…

but if you don’t want to read it, i’ll copy the points that you are in dire need of understanding (i bolded the part that I think is most important for you to understand):

“Q: But couldn’t I just gouge the grappler’s eyes, or bite him?

The non-grappler will claim to resort to such infallible techniques as eyegouging, biting and / or genital crushing techniques. The reasons why this is bullshido are as follows:

1. How often do these strikers actually train these movements? The answer is usually not very often. Thus, they are a somewhat risky method of countering a grappler, who has practiced the movements they will be using many times before on resisting opponents.

2. Eyegouging, biting and genital mandhandling are of course very uncomfortable for those on the recieving end, but they are not instant fight-enders. Resorting to these techniques suggests a ‘last chance’ situation, whereby the grappler has you under their control and you are trying a last ditch attempt to escape or injure the grappler. If you do not either gouge the eye right out of the socket and put your thumb in their brain, crush their nuts even through various layers of clothing, or bite a rather large chunk from their body, they will continue to choke you to unconsciousness or break / disable a joint or limb.

3. What you can do to them, they can do to you. In other words. if a grappler can beat you under a specific ruleset, chances are that when those rules are lifted, they can beat you even worse. There is no unwritten law in life that states only kung fu weenies can poke someone in the eye or squeeze some testicles.

Which brings us to the last point,

4. Whatever move you claim to be able to pull out of the bag during ‘anti-grappling’, chances are a grappler can not only do the same move to you, but can use their skill and experience of fighting in that range to put themselves in a much better position than you to apply the move, and also have the knowledge and experience to defend against it far better than a non-grappler.
For instance, from under mount, trying to gouge your opponent’s eyes will give your opponent a great opportunity to armbar you. Whereas the person on top mount can gouge with impunity.

5: So far these tactics have never worked on a skilled grappler. For instance, in the john marsh vs. kung fu guy video on bullshido.net, the kung fu guy trys to gouge Marsh’s eyes from underneath side control. Marsh uses the raised arm as an opportunity to apply a keylock and snaps the kung fu guy’s shoulder.”

now ninjaclaws, I beg you, read the whole FAQ….dear God i beg you.>

Post: bamboo:

Ninja,

In order to really get an answer to all your questions ( i really believe yor just a troll though :wink: ), go to a bjj or submission grappling school, honestly express your concerns and ask to roll.

So your either
1. Uninformed and this little trip will help you
2. Trolling the board
3. A liar since yuo claimed to have won against good bjj people already using those tactics.

-bamboo>

Post: graham1:

A wrestler was training for an important match. He asked his trainer if he had any little tricks he could give him, just to get a little edge. His trainer said: ” If you’re in a clinch & your opponent is getting the better of you, wait until the referee is over the other side & give your opponent as hard a bite, anywhere you can get, to distract him enough to help you get on top. It always worked for me” The wrestler thanked him & continued with his raining. Come the day, the wrestler is on the mats with his opponent, but he quickly gets into trouble & his opponent pretty much has him tied up in an excrutiating looking hold. The wrestler remembered his trainers advice & sank his teeth into the nearest body part he could see, whereupon, with a great surge of effort, he breaks out of the hold & pins his opponent to the floor for the decision. Afterwards, his trainer said to him: “Well done. I saw that you remembered my advice.” The wrestler said: “Thank you. I did remember your advice & bit the nearest thing I could see. It’s amazing how powerful you become when you bite your own balls.”>

Post: zefff:

Old ones are the best eh? :lol:>

Post: SAINT:

9/10 end up on the ground? well I do know for a fact that 10/10 knocked out people end up on the ground. the only time I have seen fights go to the ground and stay there while they fight for the win is when 2 noobs go at it.
My good friend is a brown belt BJJ, and even he doesnt go to the ground unless he has to in a street fight. the risk of external intervention is too great.
it isnt safe to limit your options by staying down. the control of the dojo is fine, but outside… no way. you may be teh best submission guy but as soon as you go down, you put yourself at risk from others. and that is where the grappling becomes your doom.

I have no problem with it, but it (like stand up) has its time and place.

even with door work, I wont be seen dead staying down with someone. I may restrain them to the ground, but I am not tied up. I cant justify removing my ability to engage others with the need to stay wrapped up.

dickheads are pack animals, and group mentality enables bravery beyond their means, so you have a 10/10 chance of getting attacked while you cant defend yourself.

we need to attack, move on, attack, move on, if possible. ground fighting removes that option.>

Post: ATTPSL:

First Post here……

I have never been taken to the ground in a real street fight, but again, I did not give the other person the opportunity to do so…..

That being said, one can NOT ignore the real chances of being grappled or taken down, especially if you are really landing some good shots.

The UFC was a real eye-opener for me. It made me appreciate BJJ and how really well-rounded a fighter MUST be.

I have taken MANY a person down in combative situations in a psychiatric hospital that I used to work in. This was from being attacked or stopping violent behavior from patients.

Since I could not employ any striking techniques, I had to rely on my basic knowledge of ju-jitsu, judo and wrestling to help save my butt MANY times……….

My blocking and evading techninques were from karate, JKD and so on…..

I recently started back into martial arts and this time, I enrolled myself, wife and 2 sons into a mixed martial arts school that is VERY good in my experience.

It is run by Din Thomas (UFC Veteran). and combines BJJ with Kickboxing and Grappling…….

My opinion is that one must train for ALL possibilities, as you can never really choose your attacker.>

Post: kutter:

I’ve been in a few street fights (10+) & not an expert by any means. But I can only remember once that the fght didnt go to the ground – it was broken up before it actually ended. But i do think its neccessary to have ground work in your repertoire. I read this interesting article on submission fighting : SUBMISSION FIGHTING

My vote – Reality that Most street fights go to the ground

kuTTer>

Post: bamboo:

Two Franco articles in two days on the first post from new users?

Guys, the stuff in the article is common sense, you can all surely state these opinions without feeding us links to this website.

I miss the mods now.

-bamboo>

Post: nbotary:

Yeah, I miss them too…>

Post: Triple T:

Quoting: ATTPSL;48345 I have taken MANY a person down in combative situations in a psychiatric hospital that I used to work in. This was from being attacked or stopping violent behavior from patients…I recently started back into martial arts and this time, I enrolled myself, wife and 2 sons into a mixed martial arts school that is VERY good in my experience. It is run by Din Thomas (UFC Veteran). and combines BJJ with Kickboxing and Grappling.
Welcome to forums, ATTPSL! I think it’s pretty awesome you get to train at Din’s school, and I’m sure that your experience will aid all of us in our future conversations.>

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