size and strength

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size and strength
Original Poster: shots
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 01-09-2006, 13:12

Orginal Post: shots: hey everybody.
i have a question about size and strtength, im 16, 5’10 and 195 pounds. i workout around 3 to 4 times a week and my workouts are mainly mass building workouts (to those who don’t know mass building workouts are perfomred to make you gain musscle mass, not definition.) often i fight or play fight with people older or same as my age and noticed that some of them are smaller than me but are able to push or shove me even though they’re lighter than me, this is my weakness. when i try to push back i notice that they have an advantage for some reason , in which incases like these i have to use my fists. would Somebody tell me how to increase the strength of my body while maintaining my muscle mass size. Im not weak in strength at all but i wonder how someone smaller than me is able to push me or shove me, even though i can push back somebody bigger than me. Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks.

Post: nbotary:

I seriously can’t believe your asking this… Do you want to know how to kick ass too? Sounds like you need a few courses in Rex Kwon Do… :roll:>

Post: angryrocker4:

Once again, and this is coming from a “big” powerlifter, size and strength mean nothing. If you know how to fight, and not this competition crap where everythings gotta be equal or someone will bitch, it wont mean a damn thing. It seems what they’re doin is takin away your “advantage” or the only thing it seems you know how to use. Do the same to them. Do you even study anything?>

Post: kungfumaster:

[quote=angryrocker4 Once again, and this is coming from a “big” powerlifter, size and strength mean nothing. If you know how to fight, and not this competition crap where everythings gotta be equal or someone will bitch, it wont mean a damn thing. It seems what they’re doin is takin away your “advantage” or the only thing it seems you know how to use. Do the same to them. Do you even study anything?[/quote 

well done took the words right out of my mouth. in the martial arts a small guy can knock out a big guy. im not telling any thing all im saying is don’t take getting beaten up too badly.>

Post: smartbuy:

dude its all about experiance on the street that will win you a fight, big deal if a small guy can push you around, punch him in the face. Pushing does not prove anything lol nor does strength or competitions.>

Post: angryrocker4:

Unless your gonna try to flip his car over afterwards.>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

Small doesn?t mean weak.

I?m a skinny guy, 5?11 and 150lbs, but I can do reps of 220lbs on the bench (if lifting 70lbs over my body weight isnt strong….frak off).>

Post: samurai6string:

also, don’t let looks fool you. Some of the strongest people I know are also the most out of shape people I know. And strength in lifting weights doesn’t mean strength in wrestling/grappling. when perform an excercise all you are doing is training yourself to do that excercise. If you do alot of becnch presses and can lift alot of weight, all it means is that your body can do bench presses, it doesn’t translate into being able to push/pull/roll someone around.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=WushuPadawan001 Small doesn?t mean weak.

I?m a skinny guy, 5?11 and 150lbs, but I can do reps of 220lbs on the bench (if lifting 70lbs over my body weight isnt strong….frak off).[/quote 

is that universal or free weights…>

Post: angryrocker4:

220 aint nothin!!! come back at 320! J/K dude, bein a teen doin 220’s pretty good.>

Post: shots:

im not asking this question becasue of a fighting problem, im asking this because im talking about size and strength in general. i know that a small person can knock a big person out because i have seen it, my question is how do u improve your strength while also maintaining a mass body. if you dont know the answer dont leave me with answers like “I seriously can’t believe your asking this… Do you want to know how to kick ass too? Sounds like you need a few courses in Rex Kwon Do… “, i might not know alot like you guys because i dont go around looking for fights, im just asking this question as a matter of self defense.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

I spent a good amount of time as an offensive lineman, so I know how to push and not be pushed. Kind of like a sumo wrestler. No wonder so many lineman are fat. Anyway. When you get into a shoving match, there are two things that you want to keep in mind: 1) That you are lower than the other guy and 2) that your feet are constantly moving. Think about football linemen for second, they start in a three-point stance and when the play starts, snap into a standing position and are locked in a test of strength with the opponent. The lineman that does the best is the one who gets his hands on the other guy first and can stand him straight up. If you’re straight up, or worse bending backwards, then you cannot exert as much force forward. Furthermore, if you’re winning the test of strength, and keep stepping forward, you will drive your opponent backwards. That’s how football lineman open up running lanes, standing a guy straight up and driving him out of the way of the runner.

So, that’s what you do, you bend your knees and get underneath the other guy to stand him up and then keep your feet moving forward to push him back. Never let a guy get his hands on your chest and stay leaning forward the whole time. Your size and strength are not the issue, your technique is the issue. Size and strength modify how your techniques will perform, but technique is what makes success happen to begin with. Focus on that.>

Post: vladimir:

Strength doesn’t help if your off balanced. If someone can push you have balance you won’t be able to take advantage of your strength.>

Post: shots:

Thanks for the help, so basicly if i was to get pushed , i have to stand up in a leaning forward stance and if i am the one pushing i have to bend my knees a bit and force the other person back.>

Post: angryrocker4:

No you have to get under the other guys gravity, otherwise your just pushing his feet to the ground. Low and wide dude, like most girls nowadays.>

Post: nbotary:

Shots – The reason I said what I did is becuase this forum is flooded with dipshits and trolls who ask similar questions such as yours. It always turns out to be someone who has 1. has absolutely no martial arts training whatsoever, 2. has never been in a fight, or 3. is afraid of getting the shit kicked out of them when they do fight. Either way, it gets really old really fast. There is no “magic bullet” or “super secret deadly technique” that will allow you to win a fight. If what your asking is not how to fight or win a fight, then you might want to think about asking it another way. If you got your feeling hurt (that’s singular for a reason) becuase of what I posted, tough shit.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=shots Thanks for the help, so basicly if i was to get pushed , i have to stand up in a leaning forward stance and if i am the one pushing i have to bend my knees a bit and force the other person back.[/quote 

Do both at the same time. If you push back, then the forces negate each other and the stronger person wins every time. And you say that you lift a lot, so that will probably be you.>

Post: paperchaser:

I think the original poster is asking a legitimate question.

Without getting deeply into physics, athletic power comes from speed and leverage (a close cousin of torque). So to answer your question about why smaller guys are pushing you around, its because they are getting leverage on you and are probably quicker.

Force is a function of mass and acceleration. The faster you can accelerate a weapon (your hand/arms/legs) and the heavier (muscular or bone weight) those weapons are, the more force you apply to your target. A small guy can still generate a lot of force by speed alone. A slow heavy-weight generates force by getting mass moving. A fast heavy-weight is deadly (think Hollyfield).

I hate to make generalizations in martial arts, but your instincts to use your fists are correct. As a taller guy you want to keep the shorter fighter from closing in, i.e. use your reach. He wants to get inside (think Mike Tyson). Low kicks to the legs will also work well for you to keep shorter fighters away. There are ALWAYS exceptions, but taller fighters tend to loose grappling matches to smaller guys. You want to develop torque with your longer limbs and do serious damage from the outside.

Because of both your age and interest in martial arts, I would advise you against “mass building” as you call it. It probably won’t hurt you (although you should be aware there is some debate), but you’ll be far more effective developing dynamic strength. At your age you will still build mass doing resistance work but do it dynamically. The kettlebell approach is one that is more dynamic and praised by martial artists, but you can also take cues from other sports. Pro Ice Hockey players have pretty much abandoned traditional weightlifting and now use weights and special machines to train with more dynamic movement.

Lastly, no amount of strength training can make up for a lack of grappling skill. So wrestle as much as you can and slowly but surely you’ll learn to sprawl and get leverage against the shorter guys. Just don’t be surprised if they can always out-grapple you. Use your reach to keep them away.>

Post: samurai6string:

I have to disagree with you paper, I was always the tallest guy in my weight class, and was pretty darn successful during 9 years of wrestling. It’s about knowing how to eliminate the shorter person’s advantage while maximizing your own. In the competitive wrestling sense, it means riding legs from the top, hitting stand ups from the bottom, and wearing out ankle picks from neutral. In terms of submission grappling, sprawl off the shot, use your longer body to trap and take his back. A taller person has longer limbs making it harder for the shorter person to defend against chokes especially.>

Post: paperchaser:

Good point, there are always exceptions. One can always train such that weaknesses become strengths.

I think its still good strategy that the taller fighter should aim to keep the shorter fighter to the outside, but as you’ve proven, individual circumstances always trump general theories. But for a novice, I think he should start with an outside game and develop the inside game second.>

Post: samurai6string:

yeah, that is still a sound strategy I suppose, especially if you aren’t planning on working exclusively on grappling.>

Post: SAINT:

Shots, the guy can push you because of technique, not strength. Even if it is pure luck. Maybe the leverage benefits him with his lower centre of gravity, while yours is higher, just like yours against a taller guy.>

Post: Gazelle:

[quote=angryrocker4 No you have to get under the other guys gravity, otherwise your just pushing his feet to the ground. Low and wide dude, like most girls nowadays.[/quote 

I shall not take offense from that.>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
No you have to get under the other guys gravity, otherwise your just pushing his feet to the ground. Low and wide dude, like most girls nowadays.

There are a myriad of ways to affect balance while being “above” the center of gravity. Don’t limit your thinking here.

-bamboo>

Post: Gazelle:

[quote=bamboo 
Quote:
No you have to get under the other guys gravity, otherwise your just pushing his feet to the ground. Low and wide dude, like most girls nowadays.

There are a myriad of ways to affect balance while being “above” the center of gravity. Don’t limit your thinking here.

-bamboo[/quote 

The centre of gravity of something is the point which all the force of gravity appears to act through upon that body (stay with me here i am rapidly coming to the point). When the force is acting through a specific point of the body, that part of the body will be in contact with the ground (as gravity acts through the ground). If you were to move the body so as the centre of gravity no longer had a straight line between it and the ground, where the part of the body the straight line acts through is not in contact with the ground, the body would fall, or rotate so that the straight line from the centre of gravity to the ground acts through a point of the body that is in contact with the ground. The moral of the science is that you move a person above their centre of gravity, or below, providing every part of their body does not move by the same amount (which lets face it, is probably not going to happen) you are going to change the position of their body through which the straight line from centre of gravity to ground acts through, you shift them enough, you put them off balance, leaving them very vulnerable, you do it a little more and they fall over, simple, something everyone knows from experience. The trick is, if you are going to apply a technique to make, taking advantage of the weak points of the body (some of the basic ones i believe are at the diagonals) to take them off balance or make them fall is to pick one that will make that straight line from their centre of gravity shift enough.

Now, when doing this you have to remember that if someone simply puts an arm out, it will alter the position of their centre of gravity, sometimes enough to allow the to balance (like when your balancing on one leg), likewise for the legs, so, when applying a technique, it might help to be also mindful of this also.

People probably knew all that, but, i thought i’d write it just incase someone didn’t.>

Post: morne:

Hi Shots,

There can be several reasons for a smaller person to be able to upset your posture such as:
– Centre of gravity
– posture
– explosiveness
– technique
etc. etc.

Functional fitness plays an important role in being effective against a resisting opponent. To put it more blunt. It doesn’t help you have this huge structure of muscles but you are not able to use it under resisting situations. I would suggest you take up some kind of wrestling activity such as Freestyle Wrestling, Greco Roman Wrestling, Judo, Submission Wrestling. Brazilian jiuJitsu etc. which will make you more productive with regards to your posture, balance and centre of gravity. You will be working against resisting partners i.e they will be ‘fighting back’ which will ensure you start developing functional muscles instead of just being big but not being able to do anything with it.

This subsject has many variables to it but i hope you are able to understand what i am saying by just reading what i wrote above. Please visit my website at www.jkd.co.za and check out the articles section of the site. You will find the ‘functional fitness’ article of great help.

Looking forward hearing from you.

Kindest Regards
Morné
——————————
Morné Swanepoel
President JKD High Performance Street Fighting
Website www.jkd.co.za
President World Taiji Boxing Association South Africa
Website www.freewebs.com/sataichi>

Post: iwillshootyoubitch:

Out of all of the replys in this thread Tease T Tickles has been the best in my oppinion. I am collegian/free style wrestler and I played foot ball all through my school life. What T says is fundamentally sound in technique. But if this is a self defense question then why are you asking about being pushed. If you and your friends are just playing around its not “self defence”. Self defence occurs when some one tries to harm you and you must take action against them in order to prevent that from happening. If this kind of thing does happen to you often where you get pushed (without your consent. When your playing with friends it different.) where is this law written saying that your bound to push the offender back? I’de break his F*cking jaw…>

Post: Stazzy:

Break someone’s jaw over a push? What are you, some kind of demented steroid monkey who’s trying to compensate for his prepubescent testicular package by drenching himself in ego juice? Unless the guy banged your sister like a screen door in a hurricane (:wink:), there shouldn’t be any reason to break anyone’s jaw over a push. BTW, I love it when I see people get pissed over a push because right when they do, I know that 99% of the time, they will throw a blind haymaker to your face…and by the time it gets there you will have had enough time to strike him 10 times. You need to stop trying to sound cool over a forum and go back to whacking off to your UFC reruns of Tito Ortiz. Thank you. Buh bye.

Edit: Contrary to what you probably think, reading will not make you seem any less cool. Picking up a book every once in a while might aid your forum-writing skills.>

Post: Gazelle:

I think you’ve been spending too much time with NB, stazzy! :D

[quote=Stazzy Unless the guy banged your sister like a screen door in a hurricane (:wink:), there shouldn’t be any reason to break anyone’s jaw over a push.[/quote 

Are you sure that is reason enough on it’s own? I wouldn’t be too pleased if my brother did it, but then, i don’t think he’d do it. :D>

Post: Headcrab:

If you know that they are going to be pushing you, place your hips adjacent to the center of his body and bend your knees with legs spread apart as if you were riding a horse. easy as pie :)>

Post: nbotary:

[quote=Gazelle I think you’ve been spending too much time with NB, stazzy! :D

[quote=Stazzy Unless the guy banged your sister like a screen door in a hurricane (:wink:), there shouldn’t be any reason to break anyone’s jaw over a push.[/quote 
[/quote Gazelle – he’s learning from the best!!! :lol: :twisted: :lol: :twisted: :lol: :twisted:>

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