US Army Field Manual On Hand-To-Hand Combat

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US Army Field Manual On Hand-To-Hand Combat
Original Poster: vladimir
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 15-11-2006, 17:06

Orginal Post: vladimir: http://www.wanderworks.com/chilichokers/combatives_toc.htm#fig7_6

Post: goongaloonga:

cool link, shows a lot of hapkido techniques, every single one of the close range techniques are learned at white or orange belt>

Post: MrPeabody:

“SENTRY REMOVAL”

lol

Crazy…>

Post: vladimir:

[quote=MrPeabody “SENTRY REMOVAL”

lol

Crazy…[/quote 

8O>

Post: xcal:

haha, this looks like a walkthru of any of the Rambo movies:-)>

Post: nbotary:

I’m guessing the “sentry” who was being “removed” had no friggin’ clue someone was sneaking up behind him with such stealth like precision. I mean, I can see how all the items attached to the attacking soldiers belt would’ve remained completely noiseless as he advanced up on the sucka he was about to whack… :roll:>

Post: zefff:

“HELMETS BELONG ON HEADS PRIVATE!!!” :lol:>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

“In Soviet Russia, helmet wears you!”

I had to. I couldn’t resist.>

Post: vladimir:

[quote=nbotary I’m guessing the “sentry” who was being “removed” had no friggin’ clue someone was sneaking up behind him with such stealth like precision. I mean, I can see how all the items attached to the attacking soldiers belt would’ve remained completely noiseless as he advanced up on the sucka he was about to whack… :roll:[/quote 

Quote:
7-1. PLANNING CONSIDERATIONS
A detailed schematic of the layout of the area guarded by sentries must be available. Mark known and suspected locations of all sentries. It will be necessary–

a. To learn the schedule for the changing of the guards and the checking of the posts.

b. To learn the guard’s meal times. It may be best to attack a sentry soon after he has eaten when his guard is lowered. Another good time to attack the sentry is when he is going to the latrine.

c. To post continuous security.

d. To develop a contingency plan.

e. To plan infiltration and exfiltration routes.

f. To carefully select personnel to accomplish the task.

g. To carry the least equipment necessary to accomplish the mission because silence, stealth, and ease of movement are essential.

h. To conceal or dispose of killed sentries.

>

Post: angryrocker4:

actually, the gear he’s wearing is pretty quiet, you would have to not care to make noticable noise with it………>

Post: nbotary:

So let me guess… The guy in the picture is okay to carry his canteen, a couple of grenades, some rations, a Rambo size Bowie knife, compass, his sidearm, a couple of pouches with some extra ammo and maybe some Red Man tobacco…

I really like how the sucka sentry appears to be grinning just before the officer whacks him upside the noggin’!!! I’m assuming it’s an officer by the fact that he’s wearing a cap and carrying (or swinging in this case) his trusty brain saving kevlar helmet. Let’s not even mention the fact that the sucka sentry isn’t wearing his head gear – ‘cuz we all know that sentries stand around waiting for people to creep up behind them and whack ‘em in the head while they stand in the open guarding nothing! :lol:

They should’ve used a better picture with a more realistic environment…>

Post: vladimir:

>

Post: angryrocker4:

yep he’s okay, cause everything (just about) is “padded” down and the main noise youd get is that of “fabric” rubbing together, everything is pretty much taped up or tied to keep it secure and quiet. It is acceptable in light units to go without the kevlar helmet and use a cap or boonie, such as scouts, rangers, airborne. It depends on the mission and how anal the upper ranks are about the perceived protection of the kevlar.>

Post: goongaloonga:

one of the guys in my clsss was in the army, and he said one of the “silent killing” techniques they taught him was a stab to the kidney with a bayonet>

Post: vladimir:

[quote=goongaloonga one of the guys in my clsss was in the army, and he said one of the “silent killing” techniques they taught him was a stab to the kidney with a bayonet[/quote 

Like this one:

>

Post: goongaloonga:

yeah, or I’m guessing something very similar>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

Gee, you could learn the same thing from a prison inmate. And he doesn’t even need a steel combat knife, all he needs is a toothbrush and a nail file to sharpen it.>

Post: bamboo:

This is a very nice book and I certainly appreciate the glimpse into basic hand to hand training but….what is being discussed here?

Seriously, did not everyone here (even those of us with the most basic of skills) know that a sharp object inserted into the kidney is bad? Or that to sneak up on someone you have to be quiet?

Don’t take this as a slam against soldiers, my entire family have served at one time or another, I have nothing but respect but at the same time must be realistic.

I have a question, how do they practice all these deadly techniques so that they are honed razor sharp and ready for war?
Seems to me they practice “other” stuff quite abit as well.

-bamboo>

Post: vladimir:

[quote=bamboo This is a very nice book and I certainly appreciate the glimpse into basic hand to hand training but….what is being discussed here?

Seriously, did not everyone here (even those of us with the most basic of skills) know that a sharp object inserted into the kidney is bad? Or that to sneak up on someone you have to be quiet?

Don’t take this as a slam against soldiers, my entire family have served at one time or another, I have nothing but respect but at the same time must be realistic.

I have a question, how do they practice all these deadly techniques so that they are honed razor sharp and ready for war?
Seems to me they practice “other” stuff quite abit as well.

-bamboo[/quote 

I’m not in the military although I have several friends in it but I’d assume that if they were practice these techniques in some kind of speciality training because soldiers aren’t taught this in basic training. If they were to practice these techniques they would probably use a small pole or something blunt to represent a knife and then practice stabbing the person in the right places with the stick.

The comment about the kidney is probably made because someone uneducated in knife fighting might assume you could stab the person anywhere in the back or just go up to stab them in the back and although you could do these things they wouldn’t kill someone as effectively as the techniques listed.>

Post: goongaloonga:

I was talking with the guy that was in the army at my class last night, and he said the last test to pass the hand to hand course for the group he was in was to stand in the middle of a room and have everyone attack you at once, and to pass you had to fight for five minutes without getting knocked out>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=vladimir The comment about the kidney is probably made because someone uneducated in knife fighting might assume you could stab the person anywhere in the back or just go up to stab them in the back and although you could do these things they wouldn’t kill someone as effectively as the techniques listed.[/quote 

The problem, though, is that the kidney isn’t vital. You have two of them and can function to a certain extent without them (you know anyone on dialysis?), so anyone telling anyone to stab the kidney is beyond stupidity. It’ll hurt like a bitch, maybe even put the victim in shock, but blood loss fatalities take time and the destruction of the kidney itself is pointless. Approaching from the rear with a blade, you should aim for a) a wrap-around attack on the throat, b) the brainstem or c) between the ribs to get the lungs. Anything less is asking for trouble.

But then, who am I to question the almighty authority of a field manual? :roll:>

Post: goongaloonga:

yeah, I agree with Tease, I’d personally go for the brainstem, that way it’s all to the back and there’s no reaching around, you could also go for the carotids on either side of the neck, I mean if your out in the jungle or desert somewhere and you stab a guy in the kidney he’ll probably bleed to death, but the carotids would be a more definite kill, although it would be quite messy, I just thought of something, you know the carotid pressure point in the pit behind the ear, what if you stabbed a knife behind there, just a thought, I’d say stick the the front, side, and back of the neck>

Post: vladimir:

Quote:
Kidney Stab, Throat Cut. This technique relies on a stab to the kidney (Figure 7-2, Step 1) to induce immediate shock. The kidney is relatively accessible and by inducing shock with such a stab, the soldier has the time to cut the sentry’s throat. The soldier completes his stalk and stabs the kidney by pulling the sentry’s balance backward and downward and inserts the knife upward against his weight. The sentry will possibly gasp at this point, but shock immediately follows. By using the sentry’s body weight that is falling downward and turning, the soldier executes a cut across the front of the throat (Figure 7-2, Step 2). This completely severs the trachea and carotid arteries.

>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

Right, Vlad, but if the whole idea is that you’re sneaking up on the sentry and killing him quietly and efficiently, then why waste time stabbing his kidney? He won’t be able to defend against the throat slit if you’re stealthing it and if you jack somebody in the kidney before you cut his neck, he can scream for help.

But I guess common sense and critical thinking don’t go over too well in field manual form.>

Post: TheComradical:

Why is that Belgian?>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

It’s called Belgian, probably, because it was used extensively or innovatively by the Belgians.

Or maybe I overthink things. :roll:>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

I was thinking the same thing about the kidney stab. I you go for stealth, you dont want him to yell or make a sound really. If you go after the kidney, he’s gonna say “OWIE, I HAVE AN OWIE”

“Remember folks if someone stands on your face, it will hurt.”>

Post: angryrocker4:

I was taught the kidney thing, except it was the Diaphrahm you stabbed. Now thats Viking!>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

No, the Viking thing to do would be to shackle him to a post and fillet the flesh off the back of his ribs.>

Post: angryrocker4:

thats only for non-sentry’s man, this is for takin out the warning guys.>

Post: rnc:

lol obviously they are just drawings used to illustrate the techniques. actually, i read that before going on a mission, the real special forces guys modify their diets so that when they crap in the woods their crap looks like that of the people indigenous to the area. obviously, different diet = different crap. special opps like the seals get to choose their own weapons as well and are not required to use the standard issue weaponry. i am sure before sneaking up on a sentry a real seal or ranger would remove the cumbersome gear from their belts. lol besides that is probably an out dated manual to boot. but what dose the army know about real fights anyhow. lolll if you want to read up on the real deal check out this link.
http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/vietnam/tunnel-rats.htm>

Post: angryrocker4:

They keep their stuff on, why chance losing your ammo?>

Post: zefff:

“but what dose the army know about real fights anyhow.”

err…does not compute>

Post: vladimir:

[quote=zefff “but what dose the army know about real fights anyhow.”

err…does not compute[/quote 

?>

Post: rnc:

“but what dose the army know about real fights anyhow.”

just a little sarcasim boys.>

Post: rnc:

“They keep their stuff on, why chance losing your ammo?”

and you know that from personal experience?

why don’t you read the link in my posting. you might learn something about real combat.

here it is again

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/vietnam/tunnel-rats.htm>

Post: angryrocker4:

Actually, yes I do. I was a paratrooper, among other things, and guess who paratroopers get to work with very closely, special operations troops, if they arent themselves former spec ops, which there was alot in my unit, so I got some extra training I otherwise wouldnt have. Unless your a moron, the LCE and other equipment will not present a problem whatsoever and will actually carry stuff they would rather keep very close, like ammo. There’s a reason why you train in full combat equipment, so you know how to operate in it. There are also modified LCE’s out there that some guys prefer to wear. Wearing the gear can be a pain in the ass at times, but I have yet to meet an intelligent soldier who would go without it, as they would be less effective in their mission.

Also, please dont talk to people about real combat, especially if their soldiers, its a sore subject. Once you take a knife, then talk to me. Also, bein a tunnel rat is another thing entirely from the sentry removal that’s bein discussed.

Edit: OOPS! I didnt mean to sound like an ass, oh well 8) I am the angryrocker afterall. :twisted:>

Post: rnc:

well you’ve expressed yourself intelligently your point is well taken. i have my own war stories from the last 15 years of my life spent working on the street in the bronx.. the reason i put the tunnel rat site up is due to the fact that it illustrates how at times in any kind of combat and i can use that term because i have had enough guns and knives pulled on me in the street and i am still here to talk about. as i began to say, the tunnel rat is just one example of how in actual combat the ability to adapt to a certain type of combat situation is paramount. and if you read the site you would hopefully have noted that the military had a so called expert devise a system for close quarter fighting in the tunnels but that the men that actually did the fighting deviated from that system including the type of firearm which they preferred to use as opposed to the firearm and tunnel rat kit which was recommended by the so called expert. my point was to illustrate that manuals and fighting systems are just that, manuals and fighting systems but the men who actually have to do the fighting choose which techniques or will know from their own personal experience which are valid techniques. my reason behind all of this apparent madness is not to disrespect soldiers as you allude to, but rather to illustrate the point that training is training and reality is reality. i am only speaking from my experience in the streets and from what research i have done concerning military tactics and from what i have been told by acquaintances of mine that have served in vn and desert storm one of which who told me that everything he was taught in boot camp went out the window once the shooting started and that guys used to take cover and blindly shoot their m 16’s in the direction of the enemy often not knowing if they were even hitting anyone. to me it just seems many on here automatically come up with a million silly reasons as to why this technique or that technique will or will not work and it leaves me to wonder how many of the people posting on here can speak from actual experience rather than from theory or conjecture concerning their approval or disapproval of techniques. if that question is insulting to some than so be it, because it needs to be asked. what other place but to ask this question then a forum such as this. another point to the tunnel rat posting was to show that for those particular type of missions, the men who went into the tunnels had the final word on what equipment to bring with them and at times even went in as teams with a lead man and then a back up who carried other equipment that would be handed forward to the lead man as needed.. one again i am only trying to illustrate how importsnt adaptability can be in any combat situation, street, military or otherwise. btw about the sentry take out, i once read a book written by a seal who stated that a lot of times they would use light arms with silencers rather than seeking up behind with a knife. it makes sense but then again, you can’t believe everything you read. a final note on tunnel rats, you can’t argue that what those men did didn’t take a lot of balls and to be honest, if given a choice i would rather sneak up on a sentry with bells arouind my neck then have to climb into one of those tunnels. from what has been stated, in the tunnel it was one on one fighting to the death in about as close quarter as you can get with no way to retreat and no where to go. to even suggest that the techniques that were used by those men have no merit on this post i think is rather silly. and yes as you say talking about combat is a sore subject not only for soldiers but to others who’s occupations have brought them in contact with real violence and sensless death. sore subject or not, somebody has to tell other people what the reality of violence, combat or whatever you want to call is is really like. get stomped into the ground by five guys sometime then we can talk about which techniques work the technique that gets you out of it alive is what works. try watching a 16 yearl child lying in the street dying from gsw’s while his family and friends stand there screaming hysterically and then the sound of it keeps playing back in your head for a week. you got your experiences, i got mine. no disrespect intended>

Post: angryrocker4:

The military calls in a lot of experts, which are the same as officers, useless.:)>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

rnc, fifteen years or no in the Bronx, I don’t see why the “tunnel rat” shit applies to anything else here.
Maybe they do things different in New York, but I don’t see too many holes in the ground with armed enemies in them.

Vlad posts his findings in researching military techniques and training, which you claim to know a lot about. People have argued for various reasons about why those techniques are crap. Like me. When I brought up common knowledge about human anatomy. Then you come on here as if you know exactly what works and what doesn’t.

The best killer in the world is a doctor because that doctor knows exactly everything that should and shouldn’t be in the body. Don’t ask soldiers how to kill, all they know is how to use tools and march in formation. Don’t ask thugs how to kill, all they know is how to talk tough and bring guns to a fistfight. You might think that, “Hey, so and so never served, never held a gun, never earned a blackbelt, I can whip his ass in a fight. I can kill him.” Then, bam, he runs you over with his truck. Or he slips an ungodly amount of potassium cyanide into your beverage of choice. Or he fills the lightbulb in your bedroom with kerosine. Or he drops a big rock off a building as you walk underneath.

Don’t tell people they don’t know how to hurt others, because it does not require a lot of knowledge. Don’t tell others they don’t know what real combat is because if you were smart about getting things done, you wouldn’t either. Sore point or no, fighting is the last resort of the incompetent. Soldier, thug or police officer: you’re doing it wrong.>

Post: rnc:

Tease T Tickle writes, “rnc, fifteen years or no in the Bronx, I don’t see why the “tunnel rat” shit applies to anything else here. Maybe they do things different in New York, but I don’t see too many holes in the ground with armed enemies in them. “

lollll you obviously do not see any project buildings with elevators or 20 story stairwells either. sometimes the lights are not working in these buildings or they have been vandalized by drug dealers or crack heads. many of the occupants are armed with knive’s, razors or worse. tight hallways, tight stairwells, blind corners, overcrowded cramped apartments with no lights, yes in the year 2005 some people do not have electric in new york, can’t afford light bulbs or utility services. not to mention crack dens, abandoned dwellings taken over by squatters and inside of vehicles are all areas where i routinely find myself. close enough to the tunnels for me lol plus i almost always work alone and when not, i am responsible for the safety of the person or person’s that happen to be accompanying me to these places. and yes there are people that actually live underground, in holes or in tunnels in nyc and sometimes my job involves having to locate these people. there is shit i can tell you about nyc that you wouldn’t believe. ( several years ago they found a mentally ill man who constructed a network of underground tunnels in van cortland park in the bronx which he was living in and he would actually come out and hunt game with a shot gun.)

as for the tunnel rats. i think i clearly stated as to why i placed the tunnel rat site but i will say it again.

1 out of respect for the men who were tunnel rats

2 to illustrate the necessity of being able to adapt your fighting abilities to suit the situation

3 to illustrate that what you may read in a traning manual or learn in the dojo, boot camp or whatever, is simply training in attempt to prepare you for the real thing. training, sparring is not fighting. you are not trying to kill or maim your oppoenant and he or she is not trying to kill or maim you.

h2h combat, military manuals how dose the story of the tunnel rat no apply here? they were real soldiers doing real h2h combat in close quarters how dose this not apply.?

tunnel rat with a few confirmed kills v. martial artist, boot camp instructor or self defense expert or street thug, i’ll put my money on the tunnel rat . since in real fights on the street, you eventually have to close the distance.

“Don’t tell others they don’t know what real combat is because if you were smart about getting things done, you wouldn’t either. Sore point or no, fighting is the last resort of the incompetent. Soldier, thug or police officer: you’re doing it wrong.” sounds like acadamea to me. in a perfect world i might agree with you.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=rnc lollll you obviously do not see any project buildings with elevators or 20 story stairwells either. sometimes the lights are not working in these buildings or they have been vandalized by drug dealers or crack heads. blah blah blah[/quote 
Harper and Van Dyke, Detroit, MI. Or maybe even “Little Saigon”, Inkster, MI. We’re murder capital for a reason. Our projects hand out bullets with baby bottles. Don’t talk tough until you can prove it. Crime stats proved my point for me, so shut the fuck up.

Quote:
1 out of respect for the men who were tunnel rats

2 to illustrate the necessity of being able to adapt your fighting abilities to suit the situation

3 to illustrate that what you may read in a traning manual or learn in the dojo, boot camp or whatever, is simply training in attempt to prepare you for the real thing. training, sparring is not fighting. you are not trying to kill or maim your oppoenant and he or she is not trying to kill or maim you.

What didn’t you fucking get? Let me capitalize so you can’t miss it: FIGHTING IS THE LAST RESORT OF THE INCOMPETENT. Don’t respect anyone who went into a tunnel to kill because all he did was walk headlong into a trap and have the luck of facing somebody even dumber than him. You shouldn’t have to adapt shit because if you could handle your affairs, you’d be setting the pace, not following the situation. Training for a fight makes about as much sense as training for how to fall. You’d have much better results if you trained to not trip or walk off of things, and you’d have much better results if you trained to kill without resistance. Use your god damned head and stop fighting.

Quote:
h2h combat, military manuals how dose the story of the tunnel rat no apply here? they were real soldiers doing real h2h combat in close quarters how dose this not apply.?

Because this thread was about sentry removal. In open areas. Not clean-sweeping hidey holes.

Quote:
tunnel rat with a few confirmed kills v. martial artist, boot camp instructor or self defense expert or street thug, i’ll put my money on the tunnel rat . since in real fights on the street, you eventually have to close the distance.

And I put my money on the guy on the rooftops with a large scope attached to his thirty-ought-six. Path of least resistance. If it’s good enough for water and electricity, it’s good enough for humans. Why people hate this idea so much is beyond me. Don’t fight. Just kill.

Quote:
sounds like acadamea to me. in a perfect world i might agree with you.

The world is what you make it.>

Post: rnc:

while i live in a real world and have real life experience, you talk trash, quote statistics and stamp your feet and call people names when they disagree with your unrealistic world view of things.

you say, “,Harper and Van Dyke, Detroit, MI. Or maybe even “Little Saigon”, Inkster, MI. We’re murder capital for a reason. Our projects hand out bullets with baby bottles. Don’t talk tough until you can prove it. Crime stats proved my point for me, so shut the fuck up.”

yet you make no mention of ever having been to any of those places or in ano of those buildings in the daytime, much less at night and therefore one assumes that you have no first hand knowledge of anything that goes on in those neighborhoods or of the people that live in them. all you have are your statistics.

you say “Don’t talk tough until you can prove it”.

first of all, i never claimed to be tough. i simply stated that i have worked in a certain type of environments and have first hand knowledge of they type of violence that takes place there. yes i have had guns and knives pulled on me and have had some street fights. i never said i was a tough guy those are your words not mine and that you would draw that inference from my posts only demonstrates further your immaturity and i certainly do not have to prove anything to you.

i’ve read some of your other posts on here. from what i have read, it seems that you have never been in a real fight in your entire life, have never faced a life or death situation or never had to put your skills to the test and all you can say about those of us who have experienced these situations is that we are incompetent and we are doing things wrong. you then claim to be an expert on fighting and killing and have the nuts to dispense advice to others on here about what they should do when attacked offering up nothing but statistics, theory and conjecture to back up your claims.

or maybe you have been in real fights and you are lying to us all just to irritate us all. i don’t know what your story is, but you definitely have some serious issues.

you have the nerve to state FIGHTING IS THE LAST RESORT OF THE INCOMPETENT, then you persist with personal attacks and name calling which is not only childish but is the type of talk that usually dose escalate into violence both on the street and in other venues where people who refuse to tolerate snobbery and bullshit tend to gather.

i simply can’t understand how reading and quoting statistics makes you an authority on anything other that quoting statistics. YOU HAVE NO FIRST HAND EXPERINCE WITH THE VIOLENT SITUATIONS THAT YOU SPEAK OF.

i have never read one of your posts on here that did not include name calling and personal attacks of whom ever it was you happened to disagree with at the moment. i do not know what motives you have for coming on here. you are not helping anyone, you are not healing anyone and you are not teaching anybody anything. all you are doing is irritating the shit out of people.

you say this thread was about sentry removal. i believe you are mistaken on that issue. from what i recall, the original thread was a posting of a website that that contained an army fighting manual and the poster requested the forums assessment of the manual during that assessment one of the posters said that he thought the sentry removal part of the manual was not realistic and others mentioned the fact that the illustrations in the manual showed the soldiers in full gear. all of that lead to the discussion about sentry take out.

you are not a moderator on here. you have no affiliation with this site other than being a poster, yet you seem to think it is your place to guide people as to what to post, where to post it and than critiquing their posts while at the same time spewing personal attacks, foul language and other garbage all over the site.

in your first post to me, you sarcastically made comments about there being no holes or tunnels in ny. then you proceeded with your personal attacks on myself, angryrocker and others on here who’s opinions and methods you seem to disagree with. i laughed it off and in my responding post to you i answered your annoying questions like a gentleman and you responded back to me quoting statistics about projects that you obviously have never visited, crazy talk about killing and sniping people from roof tops, name calling and more personal attacks.

you say, ” Don’t fight. Just kill.”

that;s nothing but fools talk. if you have never killed anyone, than you have nothing constructive to offer on here about killing someone. and if and when you snipe someone from a roof top or kill someone as you suggest, please come back here and tell us all about your accomplishment. i for one would be especially interested in knowing how you feel about it inside, afterwards.

my original reason for joining this site was to share my real life experiences with people who are searching for the truth about fighting. there are people on here that want information about what to do in real fights, what works, what doesn’t work etc. some people are trapped in situations where they must fight to survive. you are not one of those people, so i can’t possible expect you to understand this.

i have been in a few tight scrapes where i had to use my skills to get through so i tell people about it in hopes that they will see the futility in what they are seeking. yet during all of my experiences, you were not there. you were not involved in the situations, yet you judge me and others like me as being incompetent.

in almost all of my posts on here, i have discouraged senseless violence. i have always stated that people should try to find other solutions to whatever conflict they happen to be facing when they are posting on here seeking answers.

from your other posts that i have read, you seem to derive some kind of gratification in telling people how stupid they are, mocking their opinions and then offering them some off the wall advice like shooting someone from a roof top and poisoning people as being the answer to dealing with the very kind of violence that usually begins with the name calling and personal attacks that you so freely throw about on this site.

you say,, “And I put my money on the guy on the rooftops with a large scope attached to his thirty-ought-six. Path of least resistance. If it’s good enough for water and electricity, it’s good enough for humans. Why people hate this idea so much is beyond me. Don’t fight. Just kill.”

I wonder if you even own a gun or have ever fired one for that matter?

this thread is about hand to hand combat not sitting on rooftops with a rifles. h2h not sniper training. not to beat a dead horse, the tunnel rat scenerio is more on the mark for this thread than the roof top sniping you speak up.

i think everyone on here can appreciate the effectiness of a sniper but that is not the answer they are seeking and it is not practical outside of military or law enforcement applications, and of course, lunatics like the beltway sniper. most decent people are not interested in killingtheir fellow human, they just want to defend themselves effectively.

as for the path of least resistence, 95% of my survival has depended upon negotiation and choosing the path of least resistence but that path only goes so far. i guess in some venues it may go a little further than in others but the path of least resistence is simply and ideal a model for us to follow. it is not absolute.

i do now one thing, name calling and personal attacks and hostility towards those you disagree with have nothing to do with the path of least resistence.

expressing yourself and your opinions in a civilized manner are more in line with the path of least resistence.

you say ” FIGHTING IS THE LAST RESORT OF THE INCOMPETENT” then you say, “Don’t fight. Just kill.”

so basically your saying,, don’t fight em, just murder em.

if fighting is the last resort, than shooting is beyond the last resort once again your suggestion of killing and shooting people is way off base. i am assuming that you are an adult, but there are young people who visit this site and i do not beleve your encouraging roof top snipings to impressional youngsters or maybe even some angry or mentally unbalanced ones is such a good idea.

the fact that you speak of killing so freely on here is not only very irresponsible on your part but to me only shows your lack of firsthand experience with violent death and the aftermath of it. if you have ever witnessed such violence firsthand or its aftermath and the effect it has on all those touched by it, you would not be talking such trash.

you can continue coming at me with your name calling, foul language personal attacks and off the wall arguements, but out of respect for myself and the other people posting on here and since there isn’t really nothing to learn or gain by my having continued senseless arguements with you, i will simply ignore your comments concerning my posts in the future. ( or at least try to anyway, i know it will be hard because you are very irritating) of course, you learn to express yourself with some civility i will at leat attempt to continue some sort of dialog with you.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

Rnc, I had a point by point response to your post, and then I realized you posted a novel. To save space and time for my fellow community members, I will simply respond like this:

You make assumptions about my life, which you cannot possibly know anything about. And then you complain about me calling you incompetent when you had to fight. You claim that I am lying about my experience and haven’t had any experience, you even say it’s obvious that I’ve never been inside of a housing project, all because I use objectively verifiable statistics and logic. Then you say that you have experiences without offering any verification. You complaing about ad hominem attacks and my use of bombastic language and then make claims about my affiliation with this site.

You are a newbie here. You can’t possibly know anything about any of us. I am the longest active member of this community, being a regular since the site launched in 2002. I have not only had moderator status, but also administrator status because of my friendship with Matt – the site’s owner – and the fact that I am, perhaps, the single most influencial member in this community. There isn’t a member here who hasn’t gotten into it with me, but at the same time there isn’t a member here who questions my knowledge – except maybe Bushi.

And that’s what you missed about my involvement on this site, which should be fairly easy for you to find out about. So, jumping off from that premise – that you don’t even know what’s easy for you to know about me – it seems the only possible conclusion is that it is impossible for you to know anything at all about my life story. I have been in projects, I have killed people, and I have had weapons used against me. Everything I say comes from personal experience. You wouldn’t believe that – even though I say it – and I don’t expect people to believe unverifiable claims about personal experience. I expect people, however, to take logic and verifiable facts (i.e. statistics) as true, which is why I use them.

So, you want to help members here with your personal experience? First, how do we know you’ve had these experiences? Second, why should we care that you’ve had these experiences? I don’t talk about my experience to avoid self-incrimination and because I sincerely doubt that anybody here will willingly put themselves through the psychological sledgehammering of watching a person split wide open from a shotgun blast. I have a number of psychological disorders, and a number of them stem from trauma that I have incurred from my past deeds. But then, I am making unverifiable claims without any potential for proof, so I doubt you’d believe them anymore than I believe your claims of experience in crack dens.

Face it or refute it, fighting is the last resort of the incompetant. The martial arts are – and always have been – steeped in philosophy and lifestyle decisions beyond technique and training. If you really cared about your personal protection, you’d be avoiding these places and these lifestyles that bring you to them. If you were really concerned with being attacked somewhere, you’d be packing heat and constantly aware of your surroundings so that you can see the assault coming. If you have to meet force for force, if you have to struggle, you have already failed in some important ways. You might think this is “academic” or “only for a perfect world,” but if you want me to believe that you have a brain in your head, you will stop, think and realize that struggle only happens when something’s already gone wrong.

If you’re walking down the street and get mugged, you think it’s the mugger’s fault. Why were you there? Why did he select you out of everyone else? I have been that mugger, so believe me, i know. We don’t just wait for somebody to pass by us, we select our targets and stalk them like a panther. Every time somebody gets victimized, somebody “blames the victim” and gets verbally assaulted for it. It’s nonsense to think that your action or inaction would not have prevented that attack. If you have been victimized by people like me, then it is – at least to an extent – your fault. So, yes, fighting is the last resort of the incompetent because if you HAVE to fight, then you put yourself into a bad situation and have failed. If you fail, you’re incompetent. I don’t understand why you’re so resistant to thinking from this perspective, but given what you say about your involvment in real combat, I hazard a guess at some sense of moral dignity. If that is the case, I suggest you get rid of that as soon as possible. It will only cause bad things to happen to you.>

Post: zefff:

Good sense post there Tease, except for the bit about no-one questioning you. I hope everyone questions you because I do, if I didnt you would be useless to me (in the nicest possible way). ;)>

Post: Parishda:

Gentlemen – I am completely new to your forum (2nd Post) however I am an American soldier. First off I would like to get this thread back to where it started – Sentry drills. This is a very popular misconception; let me assure you of a few things. Even in the Special Forces (SF) community, there is no such thing as a silent kill. People gurgle as they choke on blood, men kick their heels on the ground as they die, fingers squeeze triggers, it?s not Hollywood. Second of all, in the SF community, why would you engage a sentry in CQC when 7.62 works wonders from a distance? In all likely hood this will be just as quiet. The most you can look for in a real combat situation is a quiet kill, because silent is not a option, play all the Rainbow Six you want, the real world is much different.
The Army does in fact train on H2H in basic training as well as out of it; however the scenario of “a friend fighting five guys” is complete BS. When you go to the formal combatives class, you must participate in a clinch drill with an instructor. He wears sixteen ounce gloves and does his best to knock you out, you must clear his pounding and obtain the clinch, then repeat three more times with other instructors. Most of the Army’s program is Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and Judo. The program is designed for soldiers to engage each other in staged tourneys, not to fight real combat. Most of the moves can not be performed in full combat gear.
I believe you guys are also looking at the old army manual; a new manual has been released.>

Post: vladimir:

Parishda

Here is the new Army combatives manual:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-150/index.html

Do you know why they switched to practicing more BJJ than they had with the old manual? A lot of the stuff in the old manual makes more sense for soldiers wearing tons of gear than this new one.>

Post: Parishda:

vladimir –
Personal opinion: I believe it had to do with time frame. The Army started looking at revamping H2H in 1995. If you remember this was during the Royce Gracie heyday. When I was in Army Combatives School we were told that the UFC was the closest thing to “real combat”, we even watched UFC 1-5 during the program. So basically the guys redesigning the program were UFC fans, the Gracie?s were hired and the programs base was developed off of GJJ.
The official answer: The basic ground grappling techniques are easy and quick to learn. These techniques provide soldiers without any H2H knowledge a very base technique, they can then gain the “warrior spirit” through unit competition and latter be taught half way decent techniques.
I don’t agree with your last statement though, the old way was still very ineffective. In a real world situation a soldier should learn to use his ballistic helmet and body armor for both offensive and defensive maneuvers. A friend of mine name Art Huerta has developed a new fighting system that put these into effect and add features that every soldier needs, like arrest control and weapons retention – plus weapons disarms. It is a great system based on natural defense.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Parishda Gentlemen – I am completely new to your forum (2nd Post) however I am an American soldier. First off I would like to get this thread back to where it started – Sentry drills. This is a very popular misconception; let me assure you of a few things. Even in the Special Forces (SF) community, there is not such thing as a silent kill.[/quote 
Obviously, you’ve never used poisons. Such tactics aren’t viable for sentry removal, but believe me, death can be silent.>

Post: Parishda:

This is 2005, not medieval, feudal Japan. Not mention the fact that there are very few poisons that can kill on contact with the skin. Most toxic substances still need to be injected (Owww…why’d you stick me?), or ingested and circulated through the blood stream. Which world army is using this technique? And further more how many times have you personally witnessed it to see that no sound was made? Again this isn’t Hollywood and all animals make noise when they die, especially human beings.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Parishda This is 2005, not medieval, feudal Japan. Not mention the fact that there are very few poisons that can kill on contact with the skin.[/quote 
Nicotine.
Easily extracted from unflavored chewing tobacco using the “slow sun brew” method of steeping said tobacco in a solvent under direct sunlight for some time, straining out the solids and allowing the direct sunlight to evaporate excess liquid leaving as high a proportion of nicotine as possible.

Trust me, I’ve done my homework.>

Post: misterHighspeed:

posion??? ya your gonna get close enough to posion a sentry for a “silent kill” and whats your next magic trick? I agree Parishda hes right you guys are too fixed in on hollywood and the specific manuel you guys are looking at is for ranger school most of it is taught there or in the ranger battlions special forces gets the same and a little more when they get to there team but it varys however i dont agree with the army teaching a strong emphasis on bjj my friends and i agree on not wanting to go to ground with someone while clearing a room and its not clear another factor is the gear body armor grappeling hm? its not going to go very well I believe they need to go back to the drawing board on martial arts program and take bits and pieces from each martial arts like the marine corps did for there program and the israeli do for there soldiers>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=misterHighspeed posion??? ya your gonna get close enough to posion a sentry for a “silent kill” and whats your next magic trick? [/quote 
Yay! A new dumbass for me to play with!
[quote=me, motherfucker Obviously, you’ve never used poisons. Such tactics aren’t viable for sentry removal, but believe me, death can be silent.[/quote 
I wasn’t talking to the issue of killing sentries, I was responding to the laughable claim that killing is never silent.
Learn to read, Highspeed, understand what is written. Only then will I not ruin your day.>

Post: misterHighspeed:

lol dude play with yourself death is never silent get over it study up on your anatomy and physiology there buddy>

Post: angryrocker4:

Yeah, cause you fart when you die! but it still could be SBD!>

Post: angryrocker4:

Yeah, cause you fart when you die! but it still could be SBD!>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=misterHighspeed lol dude play with yourself death is never silent get over it study up on your anatomy and physiology there buddy[/quote 
And what part of chemically inducing a coma and then causing cardiac arrest causes noise? Please think instead of regurgitating bullshit somebody else told you.>

Post: samurai6string:

HighSpeed> death can be plenty silent. What if someone read your comment and had an aneurism?

And as I recall, you’re the one who needed an anatomy lesson all about coup and contre-coup force injury vs. diffuse cerebral trauma.>

Post: Chrisy1:

Is this the same as what the USMC does and why not do something like Krav or Silat?>

Post: shurite44:

I vote for slitting the throat. To the body unless you get a double lung or heart shot is going to be a slow noisy operation.

Anyway my two cents. :)>

Post: Ninja Kl0wn:

[quote=vladimir Parishda

Here is the new Army combatives manual:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-25-150/index.html

Do you know why they switched to practicing more BJJ than they had with the old manual? A lot of the stuff in the old manual makes more sense for soldiers wearing tons of gear than this new one.[/quote 

Well for the typical combat soldier there really isn’t much at all that makes sense for H2H. They keep adding more and more protective gear that restricts your ROM to greater extents. The IBA itself isn’t too bad, but once you start adding in the new side plates and DAPS gear you should just be happy to still aim your weapon properly. Even without all that, just your combat load alone will nullify alot. The ground is out of question. The clinch is pretty much useless too. Your only real viable options are bringing out the knife and getting a quick kill (you won’t be able to do anything complicated with the knife), or butt stroking to the skull until he dies. That said, over the course of the 7 months I’ve been here I have yet to engage a target at less than 150 meters. H2H has never even crossed my mind aside from PT.

That’s not to say the MACP is totally useless. Aside from making submission wrestling another army sport for soldiers to compete in, and being excellent for PT, it does have it’s place in non-lethal situations. MP’s I think especially should be trained in it on a fairly regular basis. The controlling techniques of BJJ would definately be of benefit when trying to arrest one of our own. Much more so than any striking art.>

Post: iamub3r1337:

Slitting some1’s throat will cause them to gurgle

I have a personal friend who “is a proffesional”, but he usually doesn’t use to much stealth, just a specialized pistol w/ silencer (The pistol alone is pretty quiet b/c it uses an extremely small caliber, but somethings done to it to cause severe trauma)>

Post: Hengest:

urub3rdum>

Post: Tapout95:

[quote=Hengest urub3rdum[/quote 

I don’t know whats so funny hengest. I know a guy who knows this guy who does the same thing. His name is Sam Fisher, and he could uber pwn all u n00bs!! All he hs 2 dew is uPgrde his silenced pistol skill and keep below 2-stars and u would be dead. im serius. o, and he wurks 4 Apple 2!

:roll:

Stupid people. Kill them all and let god sort the rest.>

Post: bamboo:

I hear large bombers work as well….>

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