What Do You Think Of Kicks?

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What Do You Think Of Kicks?
Original Poster: vladimir
Forum: Hand to Hand Combat
Posted On: 19-12-2005, 16:23

Orginal Post: vladimir: What’s your opinion on kicks in general. Personally, I don’t like kicks because its relatively easy for an opponent to catch your legs and because you need a lot of room to carry out an attack. If your legs are shorter than your opponent than your at more of a disadvantage. I personally like strikes and chokes from take downs but then again I?m in Jujitsu and not Tae Kwon Doe.

I would however use kicks to attack targets below the waist; knee, shin, etc. because it’s much more difficult for an opponent to catch it and because you can be relatively close to attack these targets.

Post: Ninja Kl0wn:

It’s really simple. If you’re good at something, your opinion of it is likely to be good. If you’re not good at something, you’re probably not going to like it for street fighting. If you’re a good kicker, then kicking is great. Like anything, just don’t go to the well with it one too many times. Use sparingly.

For one thing, catching a kick is not an easy thing to do. Provided of course, that you are good at kicking. If it was as easy as people like to make it out to be, then Cro Cop would be a horrible MMA fighter, and muay Thai matches would consists of 5 rounds of “catch the leg kick the base”. How many times have you actually seen a kick caught in MMA? I can think of a few times, but not many. That’s with professional fighters. What’s the likelihood of some random Joe having put in the hours and hours of training for leg catches?

I’m not sure where you’re from, but here in the west we have a strong boxing and wrestling culture. Watch a hundred street fights, and you might see one kick thrown. Joe Schmoe is going to expect you to throw punches, he may even expect you to tackle him, however he’s not going to be expecting your shin slamming into his ribs.

Me personally, coming from a Thai boxing and savate background, I have no problems throwing head kicks when sparring mma rules. I’m sure I would have no problems throwing a head kick in the street. The only time you’d have to really worry would be a multiple attacker situation where somebody else could tackle you from behind while you’re on one leg. Of course, if you’re in that kind of situation, what are you doing standing around trying to kickbox someone? You should be throwing a haymaker, shoving them out of the way, and running, or bringing out the steel.>

Post: Oh:

Very True statement friend, personally i wont use kicks in a fight because of the fact that it makes you lose balance.>

Post: Sabre:

Hi

I’m new around here so I’ll introduce myself. I’m a 4th Degree BB International Instructor in ITF TaeKwon-Do, & I also hold Degree/Dan grades in several other arts. I’m now a full time instructor, but I spent around 16 years working nightclub & pub doors, I’ve worked in high risk VIP protection, & I have had a great deal of experience in ‘field testing’ my training against all types of armed & unarmed attack. As well as teaching MA I am a close combat instructor with a branch of UK Special Forces & have acted as an instructor to SF units from all over the world (USMC, US Naval Special Warfare, Royal Marines JRRF, Estonian Special Police), I am the Technical Director for self defence training to the UK TKD Federation. I’ve been training for just over 26 years, & I have been fortunate to have been able to take many ‘years out’ to just concentrate ton training in Martial Arts in various places around the world.

If you have trained heavily in the use of kicking techniques you will be able to apply them. Many people decry them, but they usually haven’t actually seen anyone who can really do them well, fast & hard. When I first started training in TKD back in the early 80’s nobody in NE Scotland had heard of TKD, & we constantly got ‘invites’ from the local Karate clubs to ‘come & train’. They said our kicks wouldn’t work, blah blah blah. Well, we used to level them every single time. I knocked out their instructor with an axe kick, & I was a young green belt! History repeats itself, I had two MMA guys visit my Dojang on the recommendation of one of the guys who had been on one of my seminars. They had the same opinion, we can take you down, grapple your leg etc. Guess what, they couldn’t! The best compliment though is that they are both now private students in my Tactical Edge system. However, its the singer not the song. If I came up against someone who was simply a better martial artist than me they may be able to take me down.

I have used all types of kicks in actual contacts. I’ve applied everything right up to jumping & spinning kicks. The whole thing is that every technique has a right time to be used, the skill is in developing the experience to know when that is. For instance, attacking some one with a reverse technique is suicide, but they work beautifully when used as a counter, & deliver an incredible amount of power. 90% of the human race can fight at punching range, the other 8% try to cuddle you to death. Very few people can fight effectively at Kicking range or at in-fighting range. Fast dynamic kicking coupled with dynamic movement & the ability to flow quickly from range to range is very effective against multiple opponents, been there done that.

There are many ways to skin a cat, & every martial art is correct. I know very effective fighters from all different martial arts, all of whom have different likes when it comes to applying their techniques in real life. Personally, when I’ve faced weapons attacks I’ve always gone to close range with limb destructions, eye disruptions, fast close range strikes & dynamic takedowns (concrete poisoning ends most fights). However I remember a particular night where a few of the local drug dealers came back with samurai swords after we’d refused them entry to a dance event, & we used two steel tables & a narrow corridor to good effect, but thats another story :lol:

Sorry about the length of this post. Its a subject I feel strongly on, & I REALLY don’t want it to all sound wrong but I HAVE had a great deal of experience applying my arts (& to quote Arnie in True Lies when his wife is questioning him as he is drugged by the bag guys “yes, but they were all bad people”) & leg techniques have never failed me. Leg techniques have to be used with responsibility however. A good side piercing kick or back piercing kick to the torso is quite capable of rupturing the liver & damaging many internal structures, which could be fatal. A dynamic & powerful kick to the head is very dangerous, & instantly fatal (I remember watching a former Russian Special Forces guy in the Anti Mafia Police ‘taking down’ a local drug dealer, he dollyo chagi’d him in the head & the guy fell straight to the ground stone dead!). Under law in some countries a kick to the head is interpreted as attempted murder. I have to admit that generally a dynamic & powerful kick to the diapragm area down on the body & leg kicks are the best choice in actual combat, & these days it’s what I’ll tend to go for if I use leg techniques.

Cheers guys, all the best.>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

Sabre, welcome to the forum! I’ve recently begun training in ITF Taekwondo. I have a Muay Thai background, and I’m really enjoying both “worlds” so to speak.

Anyway, I agree with the above. If there is a situation where you believe a headkick would lead to you being taken down, well you just wouldn’t use a head kick! A good martial artist would be able to adapt. It doesn’t mean you throw out all kicking techniques all together.

I hate to bring up MMA since this is a “street” thread, but take for example Crocop versus Mark Coleman. Crocop is famous for his headkick, he throws it all the time. But he knew that Colemans ONLY shot at controlling the fight was in his wrestling style takedowns. Crocop adapted and mostly boxed the whole time, using his strong sprawl to keep the fight standing. If the opportunity had presented itself though, I’m sure he’d have let that headkick fly.>

Post: Sabre:

Yup, you’re bang on 8Limbs. At the end of the day the most important weapon you have is your brain (it freaks attackers out when you pull it out of your head & throw it at them!) & if you’re any cop as a martial artist you’ll have an appreciation of when to apply what. Many people yap on decrying certain techniques, & how they ‘won’t work in real life’. Generally the people who do this have never been in a real life or death battle in their life, at the most they’ve had a wee push & shove once outside a pub. EVERY single technique has a reason & an application where it will work, it’s up to you to train enough to be able to apply it.

Think of flying, would you be comfortable getting taught to fly by a pilot who says “well I’ve never been to flight school, but I’ve had plenty of time on microsoft flight sim!” Well, if you want an opinion on what will work in real life, or want to learn to defend yourself in real life do you listen or go to someone who’s never had more than a schoolyard scuffle?

There are too many armchair warriors out there ready to espouse what works & what doesn’t. Everyone has their own opinion & techniques they favour; but you shouldn’t be blinkered just because you or your esteemed master-chief grand poobah cannot apply something.

My favorite quote about this comes from Master at Arms James Keating (someone who I have great regard for), “many people go on that you can’t do this or that because your Tachy will get psyched & will get tachy, well just don’t judge me by your shitty standards

Just coz one person can’t make something work doesn’t mean no-one else can.>

Post: wingchun_jeetkunedo:

Kicks are important in fighting it’s just you have to know when to use them.

i know that if you were to kick at the start of a fight then your opponent being fully alert will try to either leg sweep you or grab at your leg.

first you should start off with the blocking bobbing and weaving technique (to tire the opponent) then when he trys to catch his breath a quick snap kick to he stomach, head or legs can prove that legs ARE another weapon of your body.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=wingchun_jeetkunedo first you should start off with the blocking bobbing and weaving technique (to tire the opponent) then when he trys to catch his breath a quick snap kick to he stomach, head or legs can prove that legs ARE another weapon of your body.[/quote 

And what happens when they don’t get tired? What happens when they predict your next bob and weave and plant a fist square in your mouth? What happens if you never get the option to kick because while you’re bobbing, he just tackles you?

The best part of trying to talk about strategies is talking about all of the reasons it can fail.>

Post: wingchun_jeetkunedo:

Tease T Tickle;
if he was to try for a takedown WHAT about a swift knee or even a ….kick to the face keeping alive on your feet bobbing and weaving is a small part to play in it if you were to extend your abilities to bob and weave and also jump back if he was to hit, or block if he was to hit cos normall people on the street have never heard of non-telegraphic movments, so thats an easier way to predict your partners movments.>

Post: bamboo:

****SIGH****

Somedays I just want to quit.

Please, stop takedowns with a kick to head….knee them…. :roll:

Unless your in the top 1%-2% of strikers WITH real fight experience, it just won’t work.

-Bammotherf*ckin’boo>

Post: dscott:

I’ve always gone by the rule of “Don’t kick above the waist and don’t punch below the waist.” Sure there are exceptions to this rule but unless you are extremely proficient in the art of kicking than you shouldn’t kick above the waist. You will be off balance and open to attacks.>

Post: Kyorgi:

[quote=wingchun_jeetkunedo  cos normall people on the street have never heard of non-telegraphic movments.[/quote 

So if we run into a guy on the street that isnt “normal” were just fucked?>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

Bammotherf*ckin’boo…thats awesome! Lol!

Eight Motherf*ckin Limbs! Bitch!

Setting up predetermined strategies for street situations is not helpful IMO. Just train hard and be able to adapt to the situation.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

The others have been nice to you. I think you’re a troll and I’, not a nice person, so here it goes.[quote=wingchun_jeetkunedo Tease T Tickle;
if he was to try for a takedown WHAT about a swift knee or even a ….kick to the face[/quote 
When somebody drops elevation and shoots for a single or double leg takedown and moves full-force straight into you, two things happen: 1) all of the force in your knee or kick will do nothing to stop their advance along a vector straight into you and 2) their forward energy will actually work in many ways like a jam, putting parts of the body in a position well in advance of where your strikes have optimal force. Meaning that your knee or kick will do absolutely nothing to stop that takedown from happening. In fact, lifting a leg while being shot on is a good way to make the takedown easier since your balance is effectively gone and you certainly can’t sprawl. If you’ve ever watched any kind of MMA competition, you should have seen with your own two eyes that striking won’t stop a takedown and since I know JKD is all about sparring, I have to question the effectiveness of your gym if you haven’t sparred enough to know that yourself.

Quote:
keeping alive on your feet bobbing and weaving is a small part to play in it if you were to extend your abilities to bob and weave and also jump back if he was to hit, or block if he was to hit

The constantly moving philosophy does nothing but drain your energy and make you look like an idiot. If you were in a street fight bobbing and weaving constantly, people would either think you’re an epileptic or that you’re trying to dance-fight. Then they’d sock you in the face because you will no doubt fall into a predictable pattern of motion. Everyone does. Furthermore, your motion does not move any part of your body enough to really avoid strikes at the range most street fights occur or grappling attempts.

Quote:
cos normall people on the street have never heard of non-telegraphic movments,

Not true. I know tons of people that get into fights all of the time. Some are bouncers at clubs, some are drug dealers, some are bikers, some are gangsters, some are just straight up hard asses. ALL OF THEM, know that the more motion you make before you strike, the more likely it is to be defended. They will go from a totally relaxed I’m-just-talking-to-you stance to putting a left hook square on your jaw in a flash. Some people call it a sucker punch, and believe me, it’s been around a lot longer than JKD and “non-telegraphic movements.”>

Post: zefff:

Quote:
oh fuck my \/ button is fucked so I cant paste my faourite WCJKD quote :(

Anyway it was the bit about bobbing and wea\/ing to tire the opponent! Someone hold me still while I roflmao!!!! what a crock of shite!!!

….ahh shit I think I got a irus now my machine is fucing up more nd more by the second :(

I honestly think WCJKD is not a true troll but a guy who is haing the wool pulled oer his eyes and rwegurgitating the BS.

aarrghh were is Nortons!>

Post: wuming:

First of all, I just want to say kudos to Sabre for his post. anyways…

1. I prefer to apply mostly low kicks. They are safer, easier to apply and can be more deceptive. There is a good chance that in a street fight alot of people might not be paying much attention to your feet, unless again that person has some training or idea of what he is doing. Even if the opponent is competent a good low kick to the sides of the knees while you have their attention on the upper half of your body should still catch someone off guard. Well, that’s my opinion at least.

2. Speaking of take downs, trying to kick someone coming at you for a take down is just a bad idea for all the previously mentioned reasons. What I believe would work best in that situation if you can not move out of the way would be to train to have a strong root and a low posture. Obviously having a strong root will make it harder for the person to take you down, and if you also have a really low posture you will put your self on the grappler’s level. If he does come in for your legs and your root is strong and stance low a good shot to the head or neck should stop him because it will be wide open.

3. Bobbing back and forth or keeping light on your feet with no root is a terrible idea to me. First of all you are wasting energy and there is a good chance you might tire yourself out before your opponent — unless your opponent is obviously out of shape then it might not too bad of an idea. Second of all root is very important. Without root you are very vulnerable to being thrown off balance, which could right there pretty much end the fight; and the last thing you want to do in the face of a grappler his have no root because you will just be begging to be taken to the ground.

4. Out maneuvering an attack in close range does work if you train yourself how to evade appropriately. There is a difference between haphazardly bobbing and weaving and actually training the appropriate footwork techniques to evade an attack at any range.>

Post: Sensei S. Hilaire:

Kicks – like any other weapon are effective if used at the right time against the right target. I am a Jujitsu practitioner, yet there are occasions where kicks have been very effective. They should not be your only or majority weapon in a self defense situation, but they certainly are a valid option, as are knees, elbows, and hand strikes.>

Post: SAINT:

Kicks are great. form controls balance.
if people are worried about getting a leg caught when kicking, try aiming lower. aim for the knees. drive it down the centre line. if your leg follows an arc then it may possibly be caught. practice knees. its good to stop a charge.>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

I’ve seen Crocop and Gomi stop takedowns with a knee/kick to the face, but unless you are as good as either of these two its probably best to just sprawl out, lol.

Anyway, if you run into a good wrestler on the street your in trouble anyway because he’ll more than likely be very good at taking you down, and thats probably when his three buddies will jump in.>

Post: vladimir:

Thanks everyone for the responses. I think a combination of additional Jujitsu classes and responses from people on this site has changed my view of kicks.>

Post: NidStyles:

[quote=Tease T Tickle The others have been nice to you. I think you’re a troll and I’, not a nice person, so here it goes.[/quote 

I don’t either one of you, but I’d like to point out a few things for you.

[quote=wingchun_jeetkunedo Tease T Tickle;
if he was to try for a takedown WHAT about a swift knee or even a ….kick to the face[/quote 

That’s the worst thing to do, even if you did have the power to knock him back. I will explain in a bit.

Quote:
When somebody drops elevation and shoots for a single or double leg takedown and moves full-force straight into you, two things happen: 1) all of the force in your knee or kick will do nothing to stop their advance along a vector straight into you and 2) their forward energy will actually work in many ways like a jam, putting parts of the body in a position well in advance of where your strikes have optimal force. Meaning that your knee or kick will do absolutely nothing to stop that takedown from happening. In fact, lifting a leg while being shot on is a good way to make the takedown easier since your balance is effectively gone and you certainly can’t sprawl.

I will say. You are pretty good there, but you forget to think that there is always more than two options ina any given situation.

For your 1) You are discounting the actual angle of the kick. I’ve learned never to kick directly into any force coming towards you. This was something taught to me in San Shou. You kick at the sides, and push through. You should be able to redirect, and knock his head sideways if timed correctly. This is were real live sparring, and practice come in. ;)

For your 2) If you let someone get that much of a jump into you in the first place. you belong on your ass. If see him diving, you know whats up, there only so many things you can do from a dive at someone’s leg. Your first thing to try is the kick to the head from the side. If you know that isn’t going to work, then dropping on to him, and bringing it into a straight wrestling match would be the ideal. If you aren’t able to get into a four toe fast enough, well you lost when he first made his move. Practice.

Quote:
If you’ve ever watched any kind of MMA competition, you should have seen with your own two eyes that striking won’t stop a takedown and since I know JKD is all about sparring, I have to question the effectiveness of your gym if you haven’t sparred enough to know that yourself.

MMA? I know that’s a ruled event and all, but how can you base anything upon it from the real world? Are side kicks to the head illegal there?

As for JKD, you only get what you put into it, like anything else. You either commit to it, or fail at it.

Quote:
keeping alive on your feet bobbing and weaving is a small part to play in it if you were to extend your abilities to bob and weave and also jump back if he was to hit, or block if he was to hit

There is no real need for any of that if you train enough to instinctively react.

Quote:
The constantly moving philosophy does nothing but drain your energy and make you look like an idiot.

Try working out more.

Quote:
If you were in a street fight bobbing and weaving constantly, people would either think you’re an epileptic or that you’re trying to dance-fight. Then they’d sock you in the face because you will no doubt fall into a predictable pattern of motion. Everyone does. Furthermore, your motion does not move any part of your body enough to really avoid strikes at the range most street fights occur or grappling attempts.

Huh? I think you were making a point, but I didn’t catch it. Please clarify this, if you wish to make actual sense. You just tried to discount the most important part of any fighter. The ability to stay mobile, and loose.

Quote:
cos normall people on the street have never heard of non-telegraphic movments,

There’s no such thing.

Quote:
Not true. I know tons of people that get into fights all of the time. Some are bouncers at clubs, some are drug dealers, some are bikers, some are gangsters, some are just straight up hard asses. ALL OF THEM, know that the more motion you make before you strike, the more likely it is to be defended. They will go from a totally relaxed I’m-just-talking-to-you stance to putting a left hook square on your jaw in a flash. Some people call it a sucker punch, and believe me, it’s been around a lot longer than JKD and “non-telegraphic movements.”

I don’t agree with that. I have never “not” seen it coming. You may not realize it, but play it back in your mind. If he hit you, he moved before it contacted. Also in the body, even a calm person in those situations makes his mind up, and makes a sign physically that they will hit you. Deny if you wish, it’s true.

Even Bruce had signs that he was going to hit. Mainly if you watch his feet. He got away with that, because no one expected him to actually kick, until they actually saw it.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=NidStyles I’d like to point out a few things for you.[/quote 
Good, I love having things pointed out to me by newbies with nothing to give one reason to listen to them.

Quote:
I will say. You are pretty good there, but you forget to think that there is always more than two options ina any given situation.

Is there? I’d like to see the proof of that. I have a gun to my head, my choices are die or die slightly later. Where’s the third choice in that situation? Listen carefully, you’re going to love the rest of my post.

Quote:
For your 1) You are discounting the actual angle of the kick. I’ve learned never to kick directly into any force coming towards you. This was something taught to me in San Shou. You kick at the sides, and push through. You should be able to redirect, and knock his head sideways if timed correctly. This is were real live sparring, and practice come in.

So, you want to kick the side of the head of somebody shooting on you. You will notice that due to your body position in relation to theirs, the only technique that allows you to do this is the roundhouse. If you throw a roundhouse at a shooter, he will grab your leg and take you down. Even if you connect with the kick, all you did was make him angry because there is literally no way in hell you kick hard enough to make a person move that dramatically. Which is why I have to question what you’re talking about when you say live sparring and practice because everyone I know who’s practice takedown defense, including myself, knows from experience that strikes don’t get it done.

Quote:
For your 2) If you let someone get that much of a jump into you in the first place. you belong on your ass. If see him diving, you know whats up, there only so many things you can do from a dive at someone’s leg. Your first thing to try is the kick to the head from the side. If you know that isn’t going to work, then dropping on to him, and bringing it into a straight wrestling match would be the ideal. If you aren’t able to get into a four toe fast enough, well you lost when he first made his move. Practice.

I don’t know many people who just straight-up shoot on a person. They set it up. They throw some jabs, a overhand right to bring your guard up to your face and then they shoot on you to bring you down. If you believe that you can practice to be fast enough to stop that, then you’re either more naive than I previously thought, or you aren’t practicing properly against smart opponents. Live opposition is one thing, intelligent opposition is something else and no smart fighter will give you a chance to stop them.

Quote:
MMA? I know that’s a ruled event and all, but how can you base anything upon it from the real world? Are side kicks to the head illegal there?

As for JKD, you only get what you put into it, like anything else. You either commit to it, or fail at it.

In MMA kicks to the head are plenty legal, so are knees and punches. Furthermore, reality is not separate from the sporting world. The sporting world exists inside the real world, and if you want to discuss takedown defense, there is no reason to omit the sporting world from the discussion. Nothing outside of the rules of MMA will help you stop a takedown unless maybe you shivved somebody in the neck as they wrapped you up, but even then, you’d probably wind up falling over with a corpse on your legs.

Quote:
Try working out more. (In response to me telling the other kid that constantly moving is draining)

Conditioning, the method of training that gives one long stores of energy to use throughout an extended period of time, is nothing if you do not pace yourself. I don’t care if you can run a marathon, constantly bobbing and weaving for no apparant reason does nothing but eat up your stores of energy and gives you no pay off. Working out more, or less for that matter, makes no sense in this situation because the issue at hand is whether or not spending that energy is worth it, not whether or not you will have energy to use later.

Quote:
Huh? I think you were making a point, but I didn’t catch it. Please clarify this, if you wish to make actual sense. You just tried to discount the most important part of any fighter. The ability to stay mobile, and loose.

If you didn’t catch the point, it isn’t because I wasn’t making sense but because you refuse to accept the obvious. Being mobile is not the same as constantly moving. If you are constantly bobbing and weaving, or constantly circling an enemy, you have no real advantage. You have a choice, and again there’s only two here: you can either stop moving and face the enemy or you can keep moving, but gain purpose, and disengage from combat. Fights are not boxing matches where you can keep moving away from the fight to not get hit. If you think like a boxer, you will get beaten. Badly. If you missed this point, I suggest instead of swallowing whole whatever shit your coach is telling you, you go out and pick a fight with a guy in an alleyway. See how well your mobility theory works there.

Quote:
I don’t agree with that. I have never “not” seen it coming. You may not realize it, but play it back in your mind. If he hit you, he moved before it contacted. Also in the body, even a calm person in those situations makes his mind up, and makes a sign physically that they will hit you. Deny if you wish, it’s true.

You’re an idiot. The issue with non-telegraphic movements or sucker punches is not whether or not there is precursory motion but how obvious that motion is. Also, if you’ve always seen it coming, you’re fucking superhuman and should be starting a cult-like following based on your massive ability to notices twitches. Note the god damned sarcasm. The punk I was writing to before was trying to play up JKD concepts like the best thing since sliced bread, I was telling him that they’ve been around for ages in the playbooks of thugs and miscreants. Now you want to try to tell us that these things don’t work or don’t exist because you’ve always seen a punch coming. It’s nice to know that you missing points is a common occurance.>

Post: wuming:

[quote=Tease T Tickle [quote=NidStyles For your 1) You are discounting the actual angle of the kick. I’ve learned never to kick directly into any force coming towards you. This was something taught to me in San Shou. You kick at the sides, and push through. You should be able to redirect, and knock his head sideways if timed correctly. This is were real live sparring, and practice come in.[/quote 
So, you want to kick the side of the head of somebody shooting on you. You will notice that due to your body position in relation to theirs, the only technique that allows you to do this is the roundhouse. If you throw a roundhouse at a shooter, he will grab your leg and take you down. Even if you connect with the kick, all you did was make him angry because there is literally no way in hell you kick hard enough to make a person move that dramatically.[/quote 

Maybe nidstyles should have a physics lesson or two lol.>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

In MMA, fighting has evolved to the point that wrestlers (for the most part) do not change levels and shoot in on you from way across the ring/cage. Its usually from closer range, and set up with strikes, etc. Shooting in from so far away would be laughably easy to counter for a good fighter (see Crocop vs. Coleman).

The point of this is that if you are fighting a good MMA fighter on the street he probably wouldn’t shoot in on you from far enough away that you could roundkick the side of his head.

Also, if he DID shoot in on you from so far away, wouldn’t you rather sprawl out and work from there instead of attempting something as risky as roundkicking him?>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I agree with 8Limbs – insteading of taking a risk by trying to kick him, just sprawl and place an elbow in the back of his skull.>

Post: Lange:

Say someone shot from a four or five feet out (ignore the fact that it’s dumb to do this) and you throw a roundhouse when they move in to take the shot. If you did actually make solid contact with your shin and it stunnded them…would his force just keep coming forwards anyway?>

Post: nbotary:

I think what a LOT of people fail to realize is that kicks above the waist expose your groin, your planting leg and your center of gravity. Any kick above the waist should be used more as a “finishing” attack – i.e. your opponent is already falling down, give him an inside/outside crescent to the back of the head/neck to help speed up his descent.

It’s crap to say that you can’t use your legs in close quarters combat. Anyone worth a shit knows that you can use leg traps to immobilize your opponent’s advance and to set up for a throw. I use my legs more than my hands when I spar becuase it allows me to set up my opponent for what I want to do to them. One of my favorite techniques is to set up for a front leg sweep and strike the back leg with a toe kick to the inside of the knee. I can also reverse the sweep and shoot in behind their back foot, setting up for a VERY nasty throw.

The majority of people who get their legs caught by their opponent’s are the one’s who are too stupid to hide the oncoming kick by telegraphing their intention – i.e. a TKD roundhouse or crescent kick coming at you like a soccer player. THAT will be caught everytime! Now I’m not saying that TKD is bad or people who do TKD are bad – but a lot of the TKD people that I have sparred with have always telegraphed their kicks before they threw them and have been frustrated when I moved in on them and “suffocated” them becuase I closed the gap. I have also sparred some TKD people who didn’t telegraph their kicks and they were better fighters.

It’s like someone swinging a bat – once they draw back, they can only swing in one direction. If you try and throw a TKD ax kick, your leg is up and your balls, knee and plant foot are my favorite targets. Never mind the fact that I might rush you, step behind your plant leg and send the back of your head screaming to the floor.

By the way, all the bobbing and bouncing up and down will do nothing for you because as you are setting up a rythm and making your feet leave the floor, you are giving me every opportunity to take you off balance – you can’t root and generate power if your feet aren’t planted and you’re wasting energy jumping up and down – and totally f-u-c-k y-o-u up!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:>

Post: wuming:

Just out of curiosity, what do you practice nbo?>

Post: jlambvo:

The question of kicking against a shoot comes down to the bizarre misconception that kicks are somehow long range attacks, when they really only become possible at mid-range. The body will always have more reach from foot to hand, than one foot to the other foot. You can punch farther than you can kick by powering your punch with the legs (e.g. a lunge).

This also means that if you can reach the opponent with your legs, he was already able to reach you with his hands. So if the opponent his shooting, he will be on top of you before your foot gets into place (no matter what kick you are doing). 9.9 times out of 10, the kick will simply be jammed, and your balance is completely compromised. This is exactly what happens in the vast majority of video taped fights, from highschool brawls to professional matches. It’s a simple matter of ma’ai applied to the human body.

In most cases where a kick successfully lands on a shooter, it actually occurs at the tail-end of a failed shoot, where it was launched from too far away or the target evades, and strikes when the shooter’s momentum has stopped. The strike itself is not what stops the shoot. There are of course exceptions, but this is probably the “safest” way to hit a guy trying to grapple you.

I also agree that continuous bobbing, weaving, and skipping around is pointless. It’s not even a question of stamina; because you are constantly dedicating your body into some direction of movement, you are actually less mobile than you would be in a neutral position (with equal potential to move in any direction). You can be loose and relaxed, but still “be at zero” as we try to approach in the Bujinkan.

It can also be somewhat unnerving to have the opponent stonewall you rather than fidgeting around.

All that said, having a leg off the ground is always a weakness, so it is important to learn how to hide your kicks using timing, and hitting on angles obscured in the fight space (under the opponent’s arm, for example). Acknowledge that they are essentially mid to close range weapons, and only reach out with them when it is absolutely appropriate (as they sometimes are of course… its silly to get TOO caught up in “ranges”).

.02>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Lange Say someone shot from a four or five feet out (ignore the fact that it’s dumb to do this) and you throw a roundhouse when they move in to take the shot. If you did actually make solid contact with your shin and it stunnded them…would his force just keep coming forwards anyway?[/quote 

Yes.

Take a sack of potatoes and a friend. Stand maybe ten feet away from this friend. Throw the sack of potatoes at your friend. Your friend, knowing typical responses to the shit-got-thrown-at-me stimulus, will either try to push the potatoes back away from him or to either side.

Watch the sack as your friend makes contact.

The forward momentum of the sack is great enough and the dispersion of mass across the sack is so fluid that any counter-force enacted against the sack will result in a deformation of the sack before or in lieu of a dramatic change in vector.

So, with the shooter example, you kick him in the side of the head, his head moves to the side and he lands the shoot. Ippon.>

Post: NidStyles:

[quote=Tease T Tickle [quote=NidStyles I’d like to point out a few things for you.[/quote 
Good, I love having things pointed out to me by newbies with nothing to give one reason to listen to them.[/quote 

On the internet reasons are never realistic anyways. If we were standing with each other I could show you.

Quote:
I will say. You are pretty good there, but you forget to think that there is always more than two options ina any given situation.

Is there? I’d like to see the proof of that. I have a gun to my head, my choices are die or die slightly later. Where’s the third choice in that situation? Listen carefully, you’re going to love the rest of my post.[/quote 

Third choice is kill him first. You will always die in the end, it’s a matter of when you chose to give in.

Quote:
So, you want to kick the side of the head of somebody shooting on you. You will notice that due to your body position in relation to theirs, the only technique that allows you to do this is the roundhouse.

Roundhouse. People still do those? Try your shins, they are extremely hard, and hurt like a MF to get hit with.

Quote:
If you throw a roundhouse at a shooter, he will grab your leg and take you down. Even if you connect with the kick, all you did was make him angry because there is literally no way in hell you kick hard enough to make a person move that dramatically.

How so? I can put my foot to a face and break a few bones straight on. It’s called a snap kick.

Quote:
Which is why I have to question what you’re talking about when you say live sparring and practice because everyone I know who’s practice takedown defense, including myself, knows from experience that strikes don’t get it done.

Just because you don’t know how, and the people you work with don’t know how, doesn’t mean it can’t be done. It just means you don’t know how. As for other ways of defense there are better ways, but my point was that kicking should not be ruled out, because you say so. It’s all in the situation. If a simple kick can be applied properly and get the job done, why get fancy?

Quote:
I don’t know many people who just straight-up shoot on a person. They set it up. They throw some jabs, a overhand right to bring your guard up to your face and then they shoot on you to bring you down. If you believe that you can practice to be fast enough to stop that, then you’re either more naive than I previously thought, or you aren’t practicing properly against smart opponents.

Most shooting I’ve been against has been resulting in numerous failed feints to get guard out of the way. I usually don’t block, I move. I keep the move going into the resulting action of me taking you down. It’s called fluid action.

Quote:
Live opposition is one thing, intelligent opposition is something else and no smart fighter will give you a chance to stop them.

LOL. I’ve been in a few scuffles with good fighters, I’ve never met anyone that would waste so much time, or energy to take someone down. All it takes is a simple feint on most people. If it doesn’t work, then a godd swift kick usually gets the job down. You are making it sound way more complex then it really is.

Quote:
In MMA kicks to the head are plenty legal, so are knees and punches. Furthermore, reality is not separate from the sporting world. The sporting world exists inside the real world, and if you want to discuss takedown defense, there is no reason to omit the sporting world from the discussion.

Basing an event on the rules of fighting automatically limits the reality of the situation, and appliable methods used.

[quote Nothing outside of the rules of MMA will help you stop a takedown unless maybe you shivved somebody in the neck as they wrapped you up, but even then, you’d probably wind up falling over with a corpse on your legs.

So a wrapping up action never leave the most vunerable part of the human body open now? Please, give me a fucking break. Preferably a collar bone. Not many people can fight with a broken one. Can you do that in MMA?

Quote:
Conditioning, the method of training that gives one long stores of energy to use throughout an extended period of time, is nothing if you do not pace yourself. I don’t care if you can run a marathon, constantly bobbing and weaving for no apparant reason does nothing but eat up your stores of energy and gives you no pay off. Working out more, or less for that matter, makes no sense in this situation because the issue at hand is whether or not spending that energy is worth it, not whether or not you will have energy to use later.

The movement allows fluid motion once the actuall fighting occurs. Prancing around is not fighting, no matter how much you want it to be. Fluid motion is the ability to adapt to the pressures of the oponent against you, yet be able to reverse it on them.

Quote:
If you didn’t catch the point, it isn’t because I wasn’t making sense but because you refuse to accept the obvious. Being mobile is not the same as constantly moving. If you are constantly bobbing and weaving, or constantly circling an enemy, you have no real advantage. You have a choice, and again there’s only two here: you can either stop moving and face the enemy or you can keep moving, but gain purpose, and disengage from combat. Fights are not boxing matches where you can keep moving away from the fight to not get hit. If you think like a boxer, you will get beaten. Badly. If you missed this point, I suggest instead of swallowing whole whatever shit your coach is telling you, you go out and pick a fight with a guy in an alleyway. See how well your mobility theory works there.

My coach? I used to teach self-defense at the Ranger camp in Fort Bragg. I don’t have a coach. I am the coach.

Quote:
You’re an idiot. The issue with non-telegraphic movements or sucker punches is not whether or not there is precursory motion but how obvious that motion is. Also, if you’ve always seen it coming, you’re fucking superhuman and should be starting a cult-like following based on your massive ability to notices twitches. Note the god damned sarcasm. The punk I was writing to before was trying to play up JKD concepts like the best thing since sliced bread, I was telling him that they’ve been around for ages in the playbooks of thugs and miscreants. Now you want to try to tell us that these things don’t work or don’t exist because you’ve always seen a punch coming. It’s nice to know that you missing points is a common occurance.

Body position gives away how a person fights. I can’t help it if you don’t think that way. It’s the acknowledgment of that simple fact that helps you understand the consepts. Every move you make is signaled by a breath, and a body position.

Thanks for the Ad Hominem, I’m sure it made you feel better.>

Post: NidStyles:

Quote:
Maybe nidstyles should have a physics lesson or two lol.

I have a Bachelors of Science in Physics. Working on my Masters quite shortly. :roll:>

Post: NidStyles:

I see you guys are taking the bobbing into a literal of constant motion during any period of time of a fight. I think you guys have the misconception of what the movements are for. Fluid actions are much better at directing any force, because it’s not muscle against muscle. Which will get you tired much more quickly than the bobbing, and weaving.

This argument is older than the dirt itself. Even where I was trained the people argued this day in, and day out. It all comes down to what works for each individual. For me I’m flexible, and can move arouns, and work off-balance better than most people. I can still hit pretty hard without a strong stance, and also recover from most hard hits by rolling away, and reducing any damage to my body.

I only bring a direct confrotation when someone starts to try to grapple my ass. Then I start to hit, and twist. Which is what the Army calls it’s grappling methods. Mainly it’s grabs for the soft points on the face, and manipulation of the skeletal structure. Similar to Chin Na, and various other joint techniques.>

Post: wuming:

[quote=NidStyles 
Quote:
Maybe nidstyles should have a physics lesson or two lol.

I have a Bachelors of Science in Physics. Working on my Masters quite shortly. :roll:[/quote 

……………….. :?>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
My coach? I used to teach self-defense at the Ranger camp in Fort Bragg. I don’t have a coach. I am the coach.

:roll:

That sir is the attitude that gets you beat down by an untrained street thug.
Guess that makes me infallable since I have also taught soldiers……>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=NidStyles On the internet reasons are never realistic anyways. If we were standing with each other I could show you.[/quote 
Was that a threat? Did you just imply that if you and I occupied the same general space that you would try to kick my ass? Son, you just made the dumbest move of your life. Threatening people on the internet is the surest way to prove to EVERYONE that ever reads what you write that you’re a total dipshit and that they should never listen to you. You did my job for me; you discredited yourself on a board where the content of your posts determines how influencial you are.

Quote:
Third choice is kill him first. You will always die in the end, it’s a matter of when you chose to give in.

Further proof that you only option besides dying is to die later. Maybe you missed what the term “later” means while working for your masters in physics. You just accomplished another job for me; proving that the current educational system is a complete failure and no matter how well trained an individual can be in any given field, there is no replacing common sense and wisdom which only come from life experience.

Quote:
Roundhouse. People still do those? Try your shins, they are extremely hard, and hurt like a MF to get hit with…How so? I can put my foot to a face and break a few bones straight on. It’s called a snap kick.

Snap kick? People still do those? One of the main tenets of every serious experience-based art in the world is to never chamber a strike, which makes the snap kick obsolete. It’s heavily telegraphed making interception easy and while it has tons of speed it lacks the torque to deliver the same power that a more stiff-kneed kick will produce, like in Muay Thai. Furthermore, a roundhouse declares the motion of the leg, not the point of contact. Telling me to use my shin as a response to me suggesting a roundhouse is about as smart as telling a beekeeper that he can get honey out of those boxes when he tells you he has bees living in them. Next time you want to try to talk to me like you know what’s up, make sure you actually know SOMETHING.

Quote:
Just because you don’t know how, and the people you work with don’t know how, dot mean it can’t be done. It just means you don’t know how. As for other ways of defense there are better ways, but my point was that kicking should not be ruled out, because you say so. It’s all in the situation. If a simplesn’e kick can be applied properly and get the job done, why get fancy?

When I say everyone I know, I mean every experienced and respected martial artist that writes down material for mass consumption, that fights professionally as well as the lads I train with. So, when I can see with my own two eyes that a top level athlete with all the best training and conditioning can kick Mark Coleman’s glassjaw full force and still not stop a shoot, I know that you’re full of shit. It isn’t about fancy, because sprawling isn’t fancy, it’s about knowing what’s what and you obviously don’t.

Quote:
Most shooting I’ve been against has been resulting in numerous failed feints to get guard out of the way. I usually don’t block, I move. I keep the move going into the resulting action of me taking you down. It’s called fluid action.

What the fuck are you talking about? When he has arms wrapped around you, you move out of the way? Feints to get guard out of the way? If I want to ground and pound you I could care less where you put your legs are, I’m just going to sock you in the face repeatedly. Just because the guys you train with suck doesn’t mean that I’m not right.

Quote:
LOL. I’ve been in a few scuffles with good fighters, I’ve never met anyone that would waste so much time, or energy to take someone down. All it takes is a simple feint on most people. If it doesn’t work, then a godd swift kick usually gets the job down. You are making it sound way more complex then it really is.

You’re just dumb, so 2+2 is probably too complex for you. You throw a few punches on somebody instead of feinting and you get the job done just as well plus the bonus of hurting them. Feinting is for people who don’t really want to fight. And define what a good fighter is, because unless you have video of you holding your own against a top level professional athlete, there’s no way to verify that you have any talent at all. Shut your mouth, you failed to impress or prove your point.

Quote:
Basing an event on the rules of fighting automatically limits the reality of the situation, and appliable methods used.

And you’ve spent the past how many years studying a LABORATORY science? How real is a pressure sealed chamber used to study the dynamics of certain gases compared to the outside atmosphere? Not at all. But how much does that unreal chamber teach us about the outside? Tons! Get your head out of your ass.

Quote:
So a wrapping up action never leave the most vunerable part of the human body open now? Please, give me a fucking break. Preferably a collar bone. Not many people can fight with a broken one. Can you do that in MMA?

Good luck. In a properly executed shoot, your collarbone should hidden from any striking limbs by the traps or the opponent’s own body. Plus, while the collarbone in and of itself is pretty flimsy, the location and surrounding material makes it very difficult to fracture hence the relative rarity of the collar bone break when compared to harder bones like, say, ribs. Oh and yes, you can break collar bones in MMA. It happened to Kazushi Sakuraba in a fight against Wanderlei Silva when Silva lifted up Sakuraba and slammed him on his head. Can you do that do somebody who has you locked up in a triangle choke?

Quote:
The movement allows fluid motion once the actuall fighting occurs. Prancing around is not fighting, no matter how much you want it to be. Fluid motion is the ability to adapt to the pressures of the oponent against you, yet be able to reverse it on them.

Mumbo jumbo. You talk about controlling motion like it’s something imperative. It’s an aid, it’s an avenue, a tactic that can help gain a win but it is by no means the be-all-end-all. I don’t care how great you think your mobility is, it doesn’t change the fact that when I laid the smackdown on the JKD guy earlier for talking about constantly bobbing weaving I was right. Nor does it change the fact that for all your talk you have yet to produce any sign that you actually know something beyond some bullshit your instructors told you.

Quote:
My coach? I used to teach self-defense at the Ranger camp in Fort Bragg. I don’t have a coach. I am the coach.

But at some point you were taught by somebody. Otherwise it’s great to know the reason why we haven’t yet killed the resistance in Iraq. And if you were taught by somebody else, and not just some Jackie Chan movies or something, I suggest you get your money back. He obviously sold you a lemon.

Quote:
Body position gives away how a person fights. I can’t help it if you don’t think that way. It’s the acknowledgment of that simple fact that helps you understand the consepts. Every move you make is signaled by a breath, and a body position.

Ah, so when Hengest is talking to you and asks, “Hey, didn’t I work for your mum?” when he has his body loose and his hands flowing about naturally in conversational gesticulations you can predict the exact moment that his left hook will be thrown? You’re full of shit. The whole point of the sucker punch is to negate the body positioning and breathing tells by replacing them with something less obvious, like conversation, taking a drink from a beer, reaching into the back pocket for a wallet, etc. The tried and true method is to confuse your exact method by exploiting typical body language and repurposing it. That is how I know you’ve never had any real experience and just swallow whole whatever shit your coach told you. I don’t care where and who you taught, you’re full of shit and no amount of credentials will save you.

Quote:
Thanks for the Ad Hominem, I’m sure it made you feel better.

Thanks for never providing any real argument, I’m sure it made you feel intelligent. Go back to physics, you’re less likely to get hurt.>

Post: nbotary:

DAMN!!! Nidstyles you just got SERVED!!!!! I’m sorry that I was unable to offer up anything in real time when this was all going down, but I was out on vacation…

Wuming – sorry It has taken me so long to respond to your previous question.

As to what I study, it’s a combination of a lot of things. The easiest way to describe it is to start from the beginning…

I started with JuJitsu in college. My instructor was my roommate and he had a black belt in both JuJitsu and TKD. Subsequently all my kicking was TKD based and fit pretty well since I played so much soccer. We had a falling out after he graduated and I began training Tai Chi and Kung Fu, which is what I wanted to begin with. I started learning Yang Style Tai Chi and Shaolin Long Fist and White Crane Kung Fu from Sifu Jeff Bolt here in Houston. Through Sifu Bolt, I met one of my closest friends/classmates/teachers – Michael Aronson. Currently I am training with Michael due to my schedule. He studied Eagle Claw with Master Leung, Schum and 9 bird with Master Ricky Lee.

So, in a nutshell, I’ve been doing mostly Kung Fu for the last 5 years. I still try and train when I can with Sifu Bolt, but my work and family schedule don’t exactly match with classes so it’s been rather frustrating in that respect.>

Post: buicken:

i wonder if sabres kicking is effective because of the kilt.
wearing a skirt would hide a lot of motion making the kick harder to detect. Also, lack of undies would frighten and horrify attackers, giving you a huge (or tiny depending on how cold) advantage. Are kilts allowed in mma?>

Post: :

Dude…. I hope you are joking….>

Post: goongaloonga:

lol keyboard warriors>

Post: nbotary:

Buicken – you fuckin’ scare me… :? Are you one of those guys that like to fart and hope to “gas out” your oppenent? Also, what the fuck is up with this pink belt you got going on? Are you a grappler? Do you like being in the guard position? :lol: :lol: :lol: I hope you don’t get pantsed if you fight wearing a kilt… :lol: :lol: :lol:>

Post: wuming:

nbo:

Thanks for the reply. I figured you must have practice some type of internal art when you spoke of the importance of root for generating power, balance, and etc.. I practice Pa Kua Chang myself and understand fully what you mean. Nice to see someone comeing from the same angle. Good luck with your training.>

Post: nbotary:

Wuming – Man, I would LOVE to learn Pa Kua!! I’ve seen it performed and I think it’s incredibly beautiful when performed right!! I also love the fluid movements that the art uses. There aren’t many schools around here that teach it and the ones that do are too far to drive to. I understand that a well know teacher named Muhammed has a school here in Houston (my apologies for not knowing his full name), but I don’t know where it is or how much it costs. One of my current classmates/teachers, Michael Aronson, knows a lot of people in Kung Fu and is looking to open up a school pretty soon. Oh well, maybe I’ll be able to get good enough in my Tai Chi and Kung Fu that someone who is knowledgable in Pa Kua will come train with us and and we can exchange our styles.>

Post: Master_Mind:

i used to play TKD years ago. now im into kickboxing… since i played TKD for awhile my kicks are pretty fast, so in my point of view, i use high and mid kicks just to make a distance between me and my opponent, low kicks are great, i even use’em in street fighting, even though im really into knees and low front kicks to the shin but i depend only 20% on my kicks in fights….>

Post: buicken:

anyone ever get hit with a set of bagpipes? it hurts.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

buicken: have you ever not been an asshat?>

Post: nbotary:

Buicken – Dude seriously, you didn’t just ask that question did you?

Is the purpose of your life to serve as a warning for others? Does your family tree have any branches or does it run straight up and down?>

Post: graham1:

[quote=buicken anyone ever get hit with a set of bagpipes? it hurts.[/quote 

Don’t you know they’re an endangered species in Scotland?

Wild haggises are also. These poor timorous beasties live on the sides of mountains. They have three legs, one shorter than the other two so that they can run around the mountain & stay upright.>

Post: km:

the most efective zone to kick are the ‘balls’.
no matter how strong your oponent is, or how many experience he has, if you can give just a short and fast kick on it, the fight can ended right there, or give you the opurtunity to do something else…and you dont need to practice years after years , even an old man can do it….and it’s very very effective in street fights and self defense situations, aren’t you all agree??????????>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
the most efective zone to kick are the ‘balls’.
no matter how strong your oponent is, or how many experience he has, if you can give just a short and fast kick on it, the fight can ended right there, or give you the opurtunity to do something else…and you dont need to practice years after years , even an old man can do it….and it’s very very effective in street fights and self defense situations, aren’t you all agree??????????

No.

You assume people leave the nether regions open for assualt. An experienced person will not.

You assume that a man already intent on hurting you will not simply become enraged and continue the fight. Rage dulls and even nullifies pain.

You assume that they will feel that pain, see above.

Sometimes it can work….if your lucky.

-bamboo>

Post: Payback:

[quote=km the most efective zone to kick are the ‘balls’.
no matter how strong your oponent is, or how many experience he has, if you can give just a short and fast kick on it, the fight can ended right there, or give you the opurtunity to do something else…and you dont need to practice years after years , even an old man can do it….and it’s very very effective in street fights and self defense situations, aren’t you all agree??????????[/quote 

I’m going to have to disagree with this one. Many men, having been kicked in the balls during playground fights and/or disagreements with psycho ex-girlfriends/wives tend to have an instinctive reaction whenever a kick is fired at the ol’ twig and berries! Go for that move in most streetfight situations and you just might find yourself lying flat on your back!

It’s been my experience that kicks aren’t practical in most streetfight situations, given the terrain conditions. For example, if you’re fighting in a bar, it could be all too easy to lose your footing on the slippery floor whilst throwing a high kick. And, it’s all too dangerous vs. multiple attackers.

IMHO, kicks in streetfights are best thrown muay Thai style to the thigh, knee and shin of an oncoming opponent. Knees work well in these situations, too.>

Post: vladimir:

I don’t know if there’s such thing as a most effective kicking zone. There are many areas other than the groin which severely hurt to be hit in. Sure a kick to someone’s groin is effective but like bamboo said there are many other factors. One thing bamboo didn’t mention was the person could be drunk or on drugs, a strike against someone who is on some kind of substance might not be effective. Another thing is it?s common for rapists and muggers to wear cups. In those case it would be smarter to try to kick out someone’s knee.

Also a groin kick isn’t always a “fight stopper”. You need to know what to do while the person is stunned. If you kick someone in the groin but don’t do anything to finish them off, they might recover to attack you.

Potentially someone might not even notice they?ve been kicked in the groin it if they are so pumped on adrenalin or so focused on something, here’s example of someone being shot in the groin yet managing to almost killing someone with his bare hands:

Quote:
Prosser shot the man at least four times with his M4 rifle. But the American M4 rifles are weak–after Prosser landed three nearly point blank shots in the man’s abdomen, splattering a testicle with a fourth, the man just staggered back, regrouped and tried to shoot Prosser.

Then Prosser’s M4 went “black” (no more bullets). A shooter inside was also having problems with his pistol, but there was no time to reload.
Prosser threw down his empty M4, ran into the shop and tackled the man.

Prosser?who I thought might be dead because of all the blood on his leg?was actually fighting hand-to-hand on the ground. Wrapped in a ground fight, Prosser could not pull out his service pistol strapped on his right leg, or get to his knife on his left, because the terrorist?who turned out to be a serious terrorist?had grabbed Prosser’s helmet and pulled it over his eyes and twisted it.
Prosser had beaten the terrorist in the head three times with his fist and was gripping his throat, choking him. But Prosser’s gloves were slippery with blood so he couldn’t hold on well. At the same time, the terrorist was trying to bite Prosser’s wrist, but instead he bit onto the face of Prosser’s watch. (Prosser wears his watch with the face turned inward.) The terrorist had a mouthful of watch but he somehow also managed to punch Prosser in the face. When I shot the propane canister, Prosser had nearly strangled the guy, but my shots made Prosser think bad guys were coming, so he released the terrorist’s throat and snatched out the pistol from his holster, just as SSG Konkol, Lewis, Devereaux and Muse swarmed the shop. But the shots and the propane fiasco also had brought the terrorist back to life, so Prosser quickly reholstered his pistol and subdued him by smashing his face into the concrete.

>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
One thing bamboo didn’t mention was the person could be drunk or on drugs, a strike against someone who is on some kind of substance might not be effective

Excellent point.>

Post: animex:

the thing is that usually when people get in fights they hvae no clue whats going on while doing it because there to pissed to even see right, so right away after the first couple of punches, either one of the fighters is just gonna throw themselves at you liek an idiot and just hit your back countless times and u wont be able to get away because they always )*&$$ hold you, so the chance of layin a kick are rare, unless you get enough space, cause most of the time your on the ground lol>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

A kick to the groin definately might not be a fight stopper, but its also to useful to throw out.

If the opportunity presents itself, slam a kick or a knee into his groin. But do it in conjuction with other strikes, just like you’d do with any other punch or kick.

Nothing is a fight stopper except for decapitation, disembowlment, dismemberment, etc. Throw strikes in combinations and if your ball slap or testicle kick happens to drop the guy, great! If not, maybe the next three strikes will?>

Post: vladimir:

[quote=8LimbsScientist A kick to the groin definately might not be a fight stopper, but its also to useful to throw out.

If the opportunity presents itself, slam a kick or a knee into his groin. But do it in conjuction with other strikes, just like you’d do with any other punch or kick.

Nothing is a fight stopper except for decapitation, disembowlment, dismemberment, etc. Throw strikes in combinations and if your ball slap or testicle kick happens to drop the guy, great! If not, maybe the next three strikes will?[/quote 

Stated well>

Post: zed:

if someone knows i wont kick, then they can devote their time defending against only hand strikes…..thats just stupid! if you dont wanna use kicks go train in boxing…for every strike there is a block, be it using the legs to block or counter kick….by not using your body to its fullest, you lost the fight already.>

Post: samurai6string:

I know this has been dead for a while, but has anyone heard of the “rippling dot?” where instead of trying to kick the family jewels you are trying to strike the perinium (taint) ? apparently you want to strike the perinium with the ball of your foot, and maintain contact with the groin area as you rechamber the kick, effectively scraping the genitals after the strike.>

Post: TKDman:

Is that spot more sensitive than the balls? I kinda doubt it. Besides, unless your opponent fights in horse stance, I can’t picture this target being open at all.>

Post: vladimir:

[quote=zed if someone knows i wont kick, then they can devote their time defending against only hand strikes…..thats just stupid! if you dont wanna use kicks go train in boxing…for every strike there is a block, be it using the legs to block or counter kick….by not using your body to its fullest, you lost the fight already.[/quote 

Boxing doesn’t teach how to throw elbows, backfists, palm strikes, and several other strikes with your hands. Also it doesn’t teach throws or joint locks, there are many different things you can do with your body for attacks than just use your legs or fists.>

Post: Doubleclutch18:

I disagree with the fact that the testicles are the most vulnerable area. An experienced martial artist is able to keep his testicles completely invulnerable from attack. They are ,however, what is known as a good distraction zone. By faking a kick to the groin area, it’s human nature to automatically guard that sensitive area. While your opponent is distracted, it could be viewed as a very open opportunity to hit the enemy right on the “button”(the 2′ inch circle located on the jawbone). By hitting that then your opponent is down for the count. There is a nerve located directly behind that spot,and when pressure is directly applied with enough force then that nerve is shut down which causes involuntary unconciousness.>

Post: TKDman:

[quote=Doubleclutch18 There is a nerve located directly behind that spot,and when pressure is directly applied with enough force then that nerve is shut down which causes involuntary unconciousness.[/quote 
Sure it isn’t from your head snapping one direction fast enough to cause your brain to bounce off your skull? I’ve never heard of this “killswitch nerve”.>

Post: dscott:

[quote=TKDman [quote=Doubleclutch18 There is a nerve located directly behind that spot,and when pressure is directly applied with enough force then that nerve is shut down which causes involuntary unconciousness.[/quote 
Sure it isn’t from your head snapping one direction fast enough to cause your brain to bounce off your skull? I’ve never heard of this “killswitch nerve”.[/quote 

I’m sure the whiplash helps but he’s correct. There’s a nerve that runs right down your jaw line.>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

From what I understand both things can cause a KO. Its either the jostling of the brain in the skull or the nerve behind the jaw.

Take a look at Travis Lutter vs. Marvin Eastman. Eastman was knocked out cold despite the punch looking extremely light. It must have just hit that sweet spot.>

Post: samurai6string:

This is true 8limbs, :idea: If you look in one of your old anatomy books, you might see a section about “coup force,” and “counter-coup force.” A coup force injury is blunt trauma to the brain immediately below the surface of the impact. Counter coup is the movement of the brain AWAY from the point of impact, causing it to collide with the interior of the skull opposite the injury. Either one results in a stretching or tearing force applied to the nerve fibers, and damages the axons, this is called diffuse axonal injury. DAI can range from mild to severe. A concussion is a mild DIA with no underlying damage, if the cerebral cortex or reticular activating system is affected, the result is unconsciousness, or a knock out.>

Post: nbotary:

The odds of you successfully hitting that spot – and acheiving your goal – are 50/50 at best. At a certain time of day, I can strike a specific point and cause severe injury, even death. If I hit you on the crown of your skull and the spot between your nutsack and your asshole at the same time, I can kill you. But, what do you think the odds are that I’ll actually be able to pull off fighting someone at the time of day I want in order to strike the points I want? What about making the strike to the crown and the strike between the legs? Seriously, I find it almost laughable that everyone keeps pushing for everyone to hit their opponent on the “button” for a “guaranteed” knockout.

If I kick you in the nuts, am I “guaranteed” to make you drop like a rock? No, not necessarily. I’ve taken a glancing blow to the boys before that caused me more pain and discomfort than a straight shot ever did. Everyone is different and will respond differently to a blow.

Quit promoting a “magic bullet” that may only be there half of the time…>

Post: samurai6string:

Nbotary> EXACTLY!, that’s why I explained coup and counter-coup force, because that sloshing of the brain can occor no matter where or from what angle the head is hit, it’s just a matter of physics and anatomy. This is the physioligical reasoning behind concussion, think Troy Aikman. 8O>

Post: nbotary:

I’d rather not think like “Troy Aikman” as he’s taken one too many blows to the head and I’m sure that by the time he’s into his sixties, he’s bound to end up sipping his dinner through a straw and pissin’ his pants everytime the someone in the nursing home hollers “Bingo!”>

Post: bamboo:

On a side note- I love it when “technical language” is simply the same word used in another language.

ex- Coup- strike>

Post: samurai6string:

Oh well, we as English speakers have been doing it for years, our language loves to cannibalize other’s. But in this case coup force means something very specific, not just “strike” force. I agree that is pretty funny though.>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

KO?s aren?t the only happy spots, cough??Chin Na?..cough.

Also, I disagree that kicks (high or low) take you off balance. Sure having one foot off the ground leaves you at a disadvantage, but one foot can root well enough.>

Post: nbotary:

I was wondering when you were going to show up…>

Post: TKDman:

[quote=WushuPadawan001 Also, I disagree that kicks (high or low) take you off balance. Sure having one foot off the ground leaves you at a disadvantage, but one foot can root well enough.[/quote 
I don’t know if I agree with that. When kicking, you’re sacrificing balance for a more powerful and longer-range strike. You can still have good balance, but your balance can’t be as good as when you have two feet on the ground.

FWIW, in a recent aikido class we were defending against kicks and it was tough for the sempai to throw me even though they had one of my legs. I’m positive it was the TKD I used to do that helped, but I know I have better balance with both feet on the ground.>

Post: samurai6string:

personally I never throw a kick above the waist, but that’s the jjj in me.>

Post: nbotary:

[quote=samurai6string personally I never throw a kick above the waist, but that’s the jjj in me.[/quote You’re a smart man. It’s not wise to throw any kick above the waist. I love it when some TKD guy tries to tell me how he’ll throw an ax kick or a high round house in order to go for the head. Close the gap and you’ll fuck ‘em up everytime. They’ll never get the kick off and they’ll panic becuase they won’t know how to fight when you get in close. Perfect position for ouchi gari… :twisted: :lol: :twisted: :lol:>

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