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Aikido Atemi Waza: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster:
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 12-03-2004, 17:13

Orginal Post: : Aikido Atemi Waza

bamboo
I thought I would post this article to help clear up some misconceptions of the use of striking in aikido. The author, G. Ledyard is a very well respected member of the aikido community and student of Mitsugi Saotome sensei.

http://www.aikieast.com/atemi.htm
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setsu nin to
Well I am one of these who dont belive in striles in Aikido. In my opinion some Senseis mixed techniques of OSenseis Aikido with Aikijujutsu or Aikibudo and thats how atemi waza come to Aikido.
As George Ledyard said himself:
The use of striking in the performance of Aikido waza or applied technique is not well documented
Yet other instructors have been known to say there are no strikes in Aikido. A number of practitioners believe that Aikidos peaceful intent is lost when atemi is used…
and here he say something interesting.Hereis reason why some Senseis had to put atemi waza in Aikido
…yet those who have worked to preserve the martial integrity of the art know from experience that any experienced attacker will defeat Aikido techniques if there is no use of atemi.
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Bushi
Setsu

If Saotome Sensei says that Uyeshiba taught him Atemi waza for the better part of 15 years as an Uchi Deshi, should I assume by your belief that he is lying?
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setsu nin to
Bushi

When Saotome Sensei proof that there were atemi waza in OSenseis Aikido than I will belive to that. As his student George Ledyard said there are many Aikido masters who dont agree with him. That Aikido dont have atemi waza is not opinion of few people, its theory which come not from me, it come from Senseis who stuied under OSensei. There are many Senseis of Aikido who support that theory. If you read what OSensei wrotte about aiki and do in Aikido you will see that there is not place for atemi waza. Some techniques had pushing which some Senseis turn into atemi waza and after that they mixed techniques from Aikijujutsu and Aikibudo in Aikido.
Best example for that is Miyako Fujitani and Tenshin Dojo Aikido which is 99% Aikibudo.
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bamboo
Miyako Fujitani (the exwife of steven seagal) never practiced under Osensei. Yoshimitsu Yamada, Rinjiro Shirata, Kenji Tomiki, Mitsugi Saotome, Morihiro Saito and Gozo Shioda all did and all acknowledge and teach use of atemi waza in aikido.

I am not trying to say that striking in aikido has the same intent as say Muay Thai or other striking arts, I am simply saying that it exists and is taught. Osensei practiced martial arts for over 60 years and taught aikido for to a great many students for a long period of time, to take the last years of his life as the only example of aikido waza is to neglect many years of the art. At close to 80 years old he was able to do many techniques without striking, but that does not mean that it does not exist.

The examples of students I gave in first paragraph span the entire spectrum of aikido development and all teach atemi waza.

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

That was example of Some techniques had pushing which some Senseis turn into atemi waza and after that they mixed techniques from Aikijujutsu and Aikibudo in Aikido.

No, she never learned under OSensei, but she is realy respect Sensei in Japan.

If atemi waza exist in Aikido where it was 50 years ago?

Kenji Tomiki put Aikijujutsu techniques in his Aikido, Miyako Fujitani Aikibudo techniques…

In my opinion “striking” in Aikido is not striking. Its in interest of Aikido to adapt art to people. “Give them what they what.” Breaking bilance using palm is not strike, pushing with palm is not strike…
In past people who learned martialarts have much diferent aproach to martial arts that these day. Today moust people whant to become “unnatural powerfull fighters” in 10 days. When they do suscide that say “problemis in art not me”. So if I dont become good as O Sensei in 10 days that its problem in Aikido not me. Thats how its goes today. I bet that here on these forum is not 10 people who repeat just one technique for 500 times widouth pause.
Today people what to learn quick and they cant learn Aikido quick so Aikido needed strikes and with strikes it need mixing. Its logical that it will be mixed with moust similar martial ars Aikijujutsu and Aikibudo.

There is one more thing that proof that theory. Many Aikido masters when they talk about Aikijujutsu talk about same art as Aikido. Also they talk about OSenseis aikijujutsu period as about “old Aikido” and funny things like that. Its same that someone say that Savate and Muay Thai are same thing, just becouse they bouth have gloves in ring and ise hands and legs. Thats proof that Aikido today need Aikijujutsu, we live in diferent world that OSensei lived.
In OSenseis time in Japan if you prooved that you are better in combat your opponent would pulled out of combat and thank you for not huring him, there are many examples when defited martial artist ask “winner” could he teach him martial arts… And what can you proof today to some idiot with tons of kokain in his nouse who whant to killyou and who is able to kill his own mother for 10 cents? Will you start assuring him about peacfull way and philosophy of OSensei? Will you try to show him way of peace? Will you try to not hurt him? I hope that noone here whant answer yes and if someone answer yes than god luck.

And in the end I just whant to say that I realy respect OSense and I dont whant that anyone take me whong and think that I dont respect OSensei or something like that.
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bamboo
I certainly don’t think you disrespect Osensei. In this subject, I think we can agree to disagree.

-bamboo
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Bushi
I will also agree to disagree

Hey we are using conversational Aikido
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bamboo
Bushi, I never noticed till you mentioned it, but since you did…

1- the conversation presented itself
2- we entered (irimi) with atemi (thats just for you setsu! )
3- we turned (tenkan)and saw the other point of view
4- diffused and harmonized

So, so many applications beyond fighting.

-bamboo
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bamboo
Well Setsu, I thought I would give it one last shot,

IN the book BUDO TRAINING IN AIKIDO as written by Morihei Ueshiba Osensei

pg. 107 in description of technique as written by osensei “Draws his right foot deeply back at the same instant he is grabbed and STRIKES for uke’s ribs with his left hand”

pg. 138 “While dropping back on his left leg and STRIKING the face with his left hand

pg. 140 “Shi inches his left foot outward and twists his body to his right outside while STRIKING to the face with his leading hand”

pg. 143 “Recieving with his left , STRIKES the face by bringing his right hand around from the outside”

The list of examples just go on and on. Osensei is very careful to specify when he means strike as opposed to push, and even has punch written in some cases. I was careful to use an edition with exact translations in technical descriptions.

I know this will not change an already entrenched opinion but just wanted to show you I am not full of crap and am not making anithing up myself.

Have a great day,

-bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

I know this will not change an already entrenched opinion but just wanted to show you I am not full of crap and am not making anithing up myself

I never said samothing like that, I know what are you talking about, and your theory is supported by many authoritys in Aikido.

Also its important to know that book Budo Traning In Aikido was published in 1933 and name of that book was Budo Renshu and not Budo Traning In Aikido . Budo Renshu means Budo Traning , so name of book was Budo Traning widouth that part about Aikido. Name Aikido becomes official and is registered with Ministry of Education in 1942, so 9 years later.

Thats just one more proof what I am talking about. Some respectible Aikido masters changed some real important facts to make some new Aikido which is more Aikijujutsu or Aikibudo than Osenseis Aikido. Fortunately Aikido history is sill here and they cant chenge it.
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bamboo
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quote:
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I never said samothing like that
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I know, more for me I guess, theres just so much crap going around right now I wanted to back mine up

I have a new edition published by sugawara press in 1997 with additions such as the new title, poetry from Osensei and forward by the doshu.
If you know where to get a copy of the original BUDO RENSHU I would greatly appreciate the information. Its a beautiful book and I would love a copy in its original form.

Take care,

bamboo
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setsu nin to
bamboo

If you know where to get a copy of the original BUDO RENSHU

I can look for it, when I finde it I will let you know.
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setsu nin to
bamboo

For now I found reprint that was made in 1978. First part in in Japanese (reprint) and second part is in English. Its for about $450.

For orginal book I have to wait mail. So I will let you know.
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Bushi
quote:
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Originally posted by setsu nin to
bamboo

For now I found reprint that was made in 1978. First part in in Japanese (reprint) and second part is in English. Its for about $450.

For orginal book I have to wait mail. So I will let you know.
________________________________________

WOW thats expensive for a book.
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setsu nin to
Bushi

Its not expensive for that caind of book, you cant finde tham in book shop any more and it will have historical value one day. Good and old martial arts books are realy expensive and belive me there are much more expensive, not book, just copyes of book.
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