Grappling in karate: Old Forum Topic

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Grappling in karate: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 05-09-2005, 23:07

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: Grappling in karate

Hengest
I don’t know why I didn’t think to ask this question before, but anyways…

As most of you who have been here a while are probably aware, it’s my theory that 90% of karate dojo, if not more, actually teach karate incorrectly in that, regardless of ryuha, they generally only teach a small part of karate’s original curriculum, i.e. the long range kicking and punching.

Since it’s a common saying among karateka that kata is karate, and kata contain numerous techniques for grappling and CQ combat in general, why aren’t these taught? Most dojo only seem to teach the kata itself, and spend little time on bunkai (and when they do it’s often incorrect) and even less time on drilling and sparring with the techniques. No wonder most non-karateka MAists aren’t convinced about karate’s effectiveness.

So, I just wanted to do a little survey. Of karateka past and present here, in the dojo do/did you ever learn grappling or CQ techniques? Are/were they only standing techniques or did you learn groundfighting as well? And if you don’t/didn’t learn that kind of stuff, what have you done about learning and coping with this range of combat?

Cheers,
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*Gong*Sao*
I didn’t see any grappling done in the dojo I was at for a little while, although I wasn’t there very long. We did some close range techniques, such as elbows and wrist grab defenses (the ones in the katas). Mostly, though, it was step kumite from a long range and katas. I didn’t see anyone, even the shodans and above doing any kind of groundwork or even full contact sparring. See the previous sentences for an explanation as to why I no longer train there.
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Bushi
The style and school I trained in concentrated on Bunkai and Yes there was Grappling from the Katas mostly standing, very little ground work….Oh thats GoJu Ryu
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setsu nin to
Hengest

In my opinion moust of Karate Dojos is based on sport, even is Sensei claim that its traditional moust of it will be sport.
When Karate come to the west it become very popular, than it was developed as sport ant it become very popular as sport too. People liked it, but they newer get right aproach to it. It become sport. There is no more Senseis like Sensei Gogen Yamaguchi or Sensei Seikichi Odo, if you ask people who are in Karate moust of them even whant know who they were. moust of todays Senseis are exsports which cariere is over, but they kept sport aproach to the art, not martial art aproach. There is no more martial arts value in moust Karate Dojos.
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Blade
It seems as there is a stupid division in karate dojos.
they teach kata, then in kumite practice there is no sign of anything learned in kata… so kata is there just to fill up time trainning and get new belts :p.
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MA dude
There are newer conteperary karate styles like enshin that have grappling and groundfighting. Daidojuku I heard has borrowed heavily from bjj’s groundgrappling. There are other newer styles that teach this. For traditional styles I think goju ryu schools tend to keep grappling a part of the curriculum more than other styles. I have only heard of one shotkan school that kept the whole grappling curriculum.
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jlambvo
I’ve heard the speculation that when the first foreigners were given their black belts back in the 50’s and 60’s, they took it as some indication of mastery when in reality it was one of dedication–ie, they were only then about to begin learning the real art. Unfortunately, it was what they were given (conditioning and combative exercises) that promulgated as karate throughout much of the world. No one seemed to pay notice to the fact that the karate they had was stiff, blocky, and rigid in practice, while the old masters would fight fluidly and relaxed across many ranges.

Several of the Hatsumi-den ryu have been interchangebly known as karate in the past; I’ve heard of Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, and Kukishinden ryu’s striking referred to as karate or karate-jutsu, probably a couple others as well over time. This has probably been the case with other martial arts of Japan. Is the discussion restricted to Okinawan arts?

I’m not clear if there is a consensus on whether Okinawan karate is indigineous to that region, or if there is an acknowledged Chinese influence (eg translating it as China hand). Although the three ryu above are not Okinawan, they certainly have strong Chinese roots. They’re striking either flows in and out of joint manipulation and throws, or these are induced percussively. If you do the partnered waza motions as a solo form, I guess there are many parallels to Okinawan karate kata.
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paa069
Ive never seen karate grappling, but i would assume that it is somewhat like japanese jiujitsu, since karate is japanese. Not sure though
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Hengest

quote:

Is the discussion restricted to Okinawan arts?

That was my intention, but then to be fair I hadn’t considered the point about the Bujinkan ryuha jlambvo. I’ve heard Koto Ryu desribed as karate before, but I didn’t know about the other two.

As for karate’s roots, the jury’s still out on whtehr karate is essentially a Chinese art, but the influence of Chinese arts cannot be denied, particularly from Fukien province. The Okinawan Bubishi makes no bones about the fact that the techniques it illustrates are kung fu techniques.

But anyway, it’s interesting that both setsu and jlambvo raise the point about karate’s transition to the West and its watering down. However, although the West has certainly played a part, I think the Okinawans themselves are just as much to blame. After all it was Itosu himself that diluted his curriculum when he started teaching karate to Okinawan school kids. It’s just a shame that this diluted form was basically what became karate in the West.

What MA Dude said about Enshin and Daidojuku is interesting but does anybody know whether they’ve resurrected karate’s original grappling syllabus and then added BJJ, or have they just gone straight to BJJ? It would be a crying shame if it’s simply the latter, although I fear that’s the most likely situation.
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MA dude
I am pretty sure Daidojuku karate went the latter. I am not sure about Enshin its grappling seems mostly standup grappling with a few things like the armbar, but I am guessing they just took some from judo.
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EvilScott
It really depends on the school more than the style, I think. You can teach things that aren’t neccassarily karate at a karate school, ie. at my WC school we do Kali for stick/knife training.
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Hengest

quote:

It really depends on the school more than the style, I think. You can teach things that aren’t neccassarily karate at a karate school, ie. at my WC school we do Kali for stick/knife training.

This is kind of my point Scott. It’s not a question of teaching something that isn’t karate. It’s a matter of teaching something that is very much karate that’s missing at most karate schools. Almost any karate ryuha, by the nature of the kata they have selected to form their curriculum, should be teaching a large amount of CQC and grappling, yet hardly any do.

But you are right when you say it depends on the school.
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jlambvo
According to the Dayton, OH Bujinkan website, Momochi Sandayu’s name for Gyokko ryu was Gyokko Ryu Hicho Karate Koppojutsu .

The unarmed technique of Kukishinden ryu seems to be known by many names. I skimmed over a copy of the densho which divided its techniques into categories of dakentaijutsu and jutaijutsu, perhaps an indication of the influence of Takagi Yoshin ryu (which was a close ally in more modern times). I think it previously was, or is now alternatively, simply entitled kumi uchi (as written on the Kuki clan website), since historically the unarmed technique of this school would have developed for coming to grips while fighting in armor. It does however make extensive use of heavy striking combined with grappling that could easily resemble karate, and I recall shidoshi Tony Brooks and shihan Kevin Schnieder referring to it as karate- jutsu , even peforming one partnered kata motion as a solo form to demonstrate similarities. Although the Chinese connection to this tradition is distant, it is built upon the Amatsu Tatara which supposedly goes back 2000-2500 years to Chinese and Tibetan immigrants (there are more in-depth sites but here’s a quick note: [url http://www.dallas.net/~butchj/general%20information.html[/url ).

Neither of these go into much groundfighting, probably due to the impracticality of ne waza in heavy armor and predominant use of weaponry; when the opponent goes down, the kata call for drawing a backup weapon to finish him (the takedowns are quite debilitating in and of themselves). It wouldn’t suprise me if there was little groundfighting in any karate tradition since the opponent’s wouldn’t try to fight you there…? That’s just speculation.

I don’t direct most of this BJK stuff at you Hengest, particularily about Kukishin ryu, since (correct me if I’m wrong) the Genbukan seems to emphasize the Amatsu scrolls more than Hatsumi. I’m curious what you think of that however, my knowledge on it has been limited largely to web resources.
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Post: El Gato Negro:

Gentlemen, I was just surfing along when I came across this topic. I don’t know if anyone is still watching this but on the of chance that someone is, I’d like to share what I have learned.

In 1975 I joined a dojo that taught Shito Ryu. My old sensei called it karatejitsu. Whenever anyone wanted to learn something specific sensei would make that person reaserch that knowledge first. While I was doing research for some techniques that I was intersted in, I came across the term karatedo quite often. I later asked my sensei what the difference between karatejitsu and karatedo was. He told me that when Gichin Funokoshi learned karate on his home of Okinawa he leared karatejitsu which meant “China hand art”. When he moved to Japan he changed the character for China to one that meant empty even though it was pronounced the same. He than started teaching it as a do or way to give it a spiritual conotation and and modified it for sport to be taught in the schools.

In 1975 we were taught all fazes of combat, even ground work. It was all part of the system. If anyone wanted to compete in tournaments sensei we teach them to modify the art so they wouldn’t seriously hurt anyone. Although, back then tournaments were pretty rough and people usually did get hurt, but it could have been worse. Around 1980 the karate movies were so prevalent that people thought what they saw was real karate. So, they wanted to learn all those fancy kicks and stuff. A lot of dojos that were teaching the real deal began to teach what the people wanted and so a lot of the old techniques fell by the wayside. I, personally, would not and will not train under anyone who didn’t start training before the ’80’s. My personal bias. I also will not teach “chop socky”. I still practice ground techniques and I teach it. It really irks me when people ask me if I studied BJJ. Our stuff came long before the Gracies.
El>

Post: setsu nin to:

El Gato Negro

My old sensei called it karatejitsu
Does he have in his lineage Bruce Tegner?

He told me that when Gichin Funokoshi learned karate on his home of Okinawa he leared karatejitsu which meant “China hand art”.
Sorry but there is no traditional Karatejutsu in Oknawa and it dont mean “China hand art”, it mean “art of empty hand”. And Karatedo mean “way of empty hand”.>

Post: Hengest:

Quote:
and it dont mean “China hand art”, it mean “art of empty hand”.

Setsu, me old mate, for once, you’re wrong! :D

Funakoshi changed the kanji used to write the term “karate”. The kanji that were originally used to write it in Okinawa did mean “China hand” rather than “empty hand”, although the term was often pronounced as toudi or tote rather than karate.

El Gato Negro: Excellent stuff sir. Exactly what I was hoping to hear. Could you tell me, the grappling that you were taught, was it based on your kata or taught to you as something seperate?>

Post: setsu nin to:

Hengest

Setsu, me old mate, for once, you’re wrong!
Who, me? :lol:

But if its diferent kanji? Isnt it? It is pronounce diferent? I am confused now.
I thought that Tode Jutsu, To-di Jutsu, Toudijutsu… mean “Chinese hand art” and that Karatejutsu mean “Empty hand art”.
Can you writte something more about it pls?>

Post: Hengest:

Quote:
But if its diferent kanji? Isnt it? It is pronounce diferent? I am confused now…Can you writte something more about it pls?

setsu, you’ve hit upon the single most annoying thing about learning to read Japanese! :lol:

In Chinese, each kanji has a single phonetic reading. However, in Japanese, the same kanji could have any number of different readings. Some have only one, most have two, but a lot have more. I can think of at least a couple that have six or more readings!

The original kanji used to write tode, or touti or whatever you want to call it, could be pronounced “to” and means “China” or “T’ang” as in dynasty. However, it can also be pronounced “kara” and so the word “karate” was sometimes used instead.

When Funakoshi brought karate to the Japanese, he tried to move away a little from the Chinese root and so suggested that the kanji “to” be replaced with “ku” meaning “empty” or “sky”. Since this kanji could also be pronouned “kara” (as well as “sora”, “a”, “su” and “muna”!) it meant that the change was only a written one and the phonetics stayed the same.

Hope that helps you out and doesn’t confuse you more. :D>

Post: El Gato Negro:

Setsu Nin To-I don’t know of any Bruce Tegner but if I get a chance to talk to my old sensei I will ask him. Also, if you want to get a basic understanding of the transition of Okinawa-te to karatedo read “Karatedo-my way of life” by Gichin Funokoshi. It’s been many years since I’ve read it but I do remember how he studied both Naha-te and Shurie(sp?)te and combined them to teach in Japan. He was also somewhat of a painter and he used the pen name of Shoto. So when people asked a student where he trained they would say Shoto’s house which in Japanese would be pronounced Shoto’s kan…hence the name Shotokan. But anything that my sensei said I would never question because he was(and is) an honorable man and if he didn’t know something he would tell you so.

Hengest-back in the day we learned kata simply because it was part of the art. We didn’t take time to break them down in the dojo. Many of us would break down the meaning of kata on our own and then come to sensei with our discoveries. In the dojo we concentrated on application of technique in a combat situation. Sensei use to say that there were too many variables out of your control when you were rolling around on the ground so the concept was do what you had to do and get up to take back some control. It could be snapping an arm with a full armbar, snapping an ankle or breaking the knee or even gouging out an eye. You see, I lived in Newark, N.J. at a time that was more violent than it is now so survival was the name of the game.
El.>

Post: El Gato Negro:

Hengest-thanks for clearing up the kanji issue. I only know what I’ve read and was told. Although years ago I was starting to learn Japanese becoming a family man put that on the back burner. Your explenation was right on point.
El>

Post: setsu nin to:

Hengest

Thanks for clearing it up. I thought all time that these are two diferent kanjis. I dodnt know that they are same. Well your explanation really helped. Thanks!

El Gato Negro
First to say, sorry for wrong informations!

Bruce Tegner was one of first US black belts in bouth Karate and Judo. He created Jukado it was mix of Karate and Judo, It was good style for its time. Later some Senseis who take school make McDojo from it. They changed name few times so today its Jiu Jutsu Do???
Also thanks for clearing things up!>

Post: El Gato Negro:

Setsu Nin To- No problem bro. I believe this is what forums should be about-the sharing of information and knowledge. I have some old flyers around here somewhere and I started looking for them to see if I can give you more info. However, my filing system leaves alot to be desired(according to my wife) and I can not yet find them. I do remember that my old sensei learned Shito Ryu from a guy by the last name of Cheatem(sp?). When I can get more info I’ll pass it on.

Also, when I was a teen I remember coming across a book about Jukado. I read and reread it because it expanded on the skills that I learned from my uncles and cousin. Do you know if that book is still in print and if say where can I order it. It would be nice to add it to my collection.
El>

Post: setsu nin to:

El Gato Negro

I found book about Jukado on amazon.com.

Complete Book of Jukado Self-Defense: Judo, Karate, Aikido (Jiu Jitsu Modernized). White Belt Through Black Belt. by Bruce Tegner. These book is from 1974 so you have Aikido techniques too. So its more what they created later – Jukaikido. These book you may finde on:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0874075041/104-5179744-2420752?v=glance#product-details

Also there is Jukado book Black Belt Judo, Karate, and Jukado
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0874070139/qid=1079562395/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/104-5179744-2420752?v=glance&s=books

Complete book of jukado self-defence
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0552084565/qid=1079562780/sr=1-36/ref=sr_1_36/104-5179744-2420752?v=glance&s=books

Hope that these books will help.

I started researching Jukado and Bruce Tegner after I found Santiago Sanchis and his Ju Jutsu Do. Well Ju Jutsu Do is just last name that he used for his martial art.
In my opinion Jukado was exelent art of its time. And Sanches and montgomery are two who destroied these art. Its good to mix arts, but you need limit. If you mix two or three styles than you get something good, but when you mix 20 styles than you get nothing.>

Post: lakan_sampu:

hi ppol!!!!!

I heard this concept of “when someone is already lying on the ground, that someone is automatically handicapped” from my Shihan before. Yes there is grappling in Karate Do, that is why the collars and edges of the Gi is made thick for grappling or throwing.but not in ground fighting because maybe the practitioners in Japan’s past didn’t see it necessary since they incorporate the concept of “one blow is enough” while on ur feet. Why take it to the ground if it can be finished by standing up? Besides, engaging in ground fighting is not a VERY GOOD idea in actual combat (overall). Karate Do training in Japan (even in east Asia) is VERY DIFFERENT than western countries.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=li_siao_lung hi ppol!!!!!

I heard this concept of “when someone is already lying on the ground, that someone is automatically handicapped” from my Shihan before. Yes there is grappling in Karate Do, that is why the collars and edges of the Gi is made thick for grappling or throwing.but not in ground fighting because maybe the practitioners in Japan’s past didn’t see it necessary since they incorporate the concept of “one blow is enough” while on ur feet. Why take it to the ground if it can be finished by standing up? Besides, engaging in ground fighting is not a VERY GOOD idea in actual combat (overall). Karate Do training in Japan (even in east Asia) is VERY DIFFERENT than western countries.[/quote Hi Li,

I’m afraid I have to disagree with you on a couple of points you’ve raised. The fact is that there is groundfighting in karate syllabuses. It’s right there in the kata. If you want more info on it I’d suggest reading anything by Iain Abernethy or Patrick McCarthy. That should bring you up to speed. Abernethy’s Karate’s Grappling Methods is particularly good. Groundfighting was most certainly practiced by the Okinawan fighters of old. They were fighters and new that to be a fighter you had to know all ranges.

You’re right when you say being on the ground is not a good place to be, but the simple truth is, sometimes you don’t have a choice. You could be subject to a takedown and before you know it you’re flat on your back. What’re you going to do then if you’ve never trained for the ground?

I assume the concept you mention is the oft-quoted Funakoshi idea of “one hit, one kill”. This is probably one of the most misunderstood concepts in the martial arts world, even by karateka. The idea of “one hit, one kill” does not mean that one blow is all you need. This is an arrogant misinterpretation that could get you killed. What Funakoshi meant was that every strike should be executed with the intention of finishing the fight with that blow, not that you should stop after the first one.

And I would generally disagree with what you say about training in Asia. While I didn’t study karate in the UK, I did study TKD. Comparing that to my short time in Wado Ryu in Japan, I would say that very little differs in approach or technique these days. I have a friend whose been in Kyokushin in Japan for several years, and he’ll tell you exactly the same thing. Japan has just as many bad karate schools as anywhere else in the world.>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Interesting! So karatejutsu did have ne waza! I was wondering about it for the longest time, since I have seen almost no kata that involve any sort of ukemi that might be translated into ne waza. Can you describe any of these methods, Hengest? I’m interested in researching them deeper because they might well lead to insights into the traditional groundfighting methods of the Chinese styles from whence they stemmed, which is certainly something missing in a lot of Chinese styles as practiced today..>

Post: setsu nin to:

I agree that going to ground isnt good idea, but it may happend that you finish on the groung. Thats why is so important to learn groundwork too.>

Post: El Gato Negro:

Good afternoon gentlemen. Setsu, thankyou for the info on Jukado. I will definately order thw books. Also I will stay away from the books by the other guy who you say killed the art. I find your remarks on training and mixing different styles rather interesting. Back in the day(I know I use that phrase alot but that is my reference point) the senseis and sifus frowned on students studying different styles and if they thought you were a grasshopper(a rhetorical phrase taken form the series”Kung Fu”)they would refuse to teach you. And since most of the instructors knew each other they could basically tell where you trained before. Their concept was that it takes a lifetime to master one style, so, if you tried to mix and match styles you would have chop suey(which is an American phrase that we blamed on the Chinese for a whole lot of different stuff thrown into one pot). Besides, if you stayed with style long enough you would get what you needed. But, that was before they started to water down the arts to satisfy people who wanted to be like the movies.

Hengest-your point one “one punch one kill” was right on target. I really appreciate a person who does their homework. Something I learned form back in the day.

Li-your comments about fights going to the ground were valid but alot of time a person doesn’t have controll of the situation, so, what then? One of the lasts fights that I lost as a teen was against a gamed leg dude who grabbed me and threw me to the ground. After analyzing the fight I came back a week later and avenged my rep(something that was important to me back then). So, if your art doesn’t teach any ground fighting or at least have concepts, then practicing another art that covers it is a great idea.
El>

Post: setsu nin to:

El Gato Negro

Good afternoon gentlemen
Midnight just past… :lol:

Setsu, thankyou for the info on Jukado
No problem. If you need something more just ask.>

Post: lakan_sampu:

hi hengest

I did not literally mean that “one hit one kill” statement. My interpretation is like yours, sorry for the exaggeration.hheeheheheh.

Besides, I stated a “MAYBE”, indicating that my perception on the Japanese practitioners that time is not so sure for I just heard it from my shihan.

I did stated “overall” in combat and I mean that usually it’s not always the case in combat that you have to be lying on the ground. However, I agree on the context that you sai about groundfighting.

w/ all due respect ppol!!!!>

Post: setsu nin to:

There are also many karate Dojos where they muxed ground techniques. i know foe few Shotokan dojos where you learn some ground techniques from Judo too.>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

[quote=El Gato Negro Besides, if you stayed with style long enough you would get what you needed. But, that was before they started to water down the arts to satisfy people who wanted to be like the movies.[/quote 

So Gato, do you believe that a single TMA art (I say TMA because many modern “single” arts are actually amalgamations of several TMA) can supply you with everything you need to be a complete fighter?

By “before they watered down the arts,” do you mean that in the time you are talking about, TMAs were generally more complete than today? By complete I mean addressing all aspects of combat in an acceptable manner.>

Post: El Gato Negro:

8-yes. When I started training in a dojo everystyle I came across had ground fighting-even TKD. Now, I don’t know if it was part of their syllabus or not but the guys I knew who practiced TKD could deal rather well if they were taken to the ground. Of course, even then there were some schools with a lot a fake stuff but those guys stayed home and didn’t hang out or go to tourneys. There is a school that is opperating today called Goshi Shun or something like that. But the guy that’s the head of that dojo still teaches the way Master Fain taught him. But overall there are not many schools left that teach the old way. Whenever I go back to NJ to visit moms I almost always go to the old neighborhood to check things out. If I come across a new(to me) school I usually stop in to check them out. Most of them go out of business in a month or two. But the schools that teach the old way(or should I say “traditional”) are still plugging along.

My old sensei offered to teach Hojitsu(sp?) to anyone who wanted to learn it. He was one of the first to do so because he learned it from one of his senseis. Now alot of the traditional schools are offering it as part of their syllabus if people want to learn it. Although it takes alot of time just to get the credentials one needs just to start taking the class.
E.>

Post: lakan_sampu:

Setsu………….

From Judo? Yes! I have read something that Jigorro Kano studied also Shotokan Karate, however I don’t know if its from Funakoshi he learned.>

Post: setsu nin to:

li_siao_lung

No, no, it have nothing with Karate.
some Karate (Shotokan) Senseis teach some Judo techniques becouse of groundwork. They just put few judo techniques in traning. It was realy popular in 80s.>

Post: kichigai:

I practise Shito ryu karate and my particular school does quite a bit of grappling. Most of it is standing but it varies between traditional grappling (bunkai) and kihon ippon kumite and self defence grappling which seems to have ju jitsu roots.
They comprise of throws, sweeps, chokes, standing locks and ground locks and some ground defence. It is however, emphasises that karate is primarily a striking art so our strengths are in striking and grappling is relatively weak compared to judo and ju jitsu for example.>

Post: setsu nin to:

kichigai

Yes, many schools mix ground techniques. But does it have orginaly ground techniques.>

Post: kichigai:

Setsu,
I am sure you can derive some “karate” ground techniques from various kata bunkai (application). I can’t think of any off hand but if its in a kata I am sure it would be considered original. Most of our grappling are limited to standing and takedowns.>

Post: lakan_sampu:

I agree, what I read is real, really. That’s why Judo-Karate is a fairly good MA in a sense that it combines both striking and grasppling concepts. right?>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

The funny thing is that judo actually owes some of its techniques to karate. Kano was a friend of Funakoshi and Miyagi, among other noted karate masters of the day, and the osotogari and many other percussive leg-sweeping techniques come from karate.>

Post: setsu nin to:

Yes, I know for takedowns and things like that, you may finde it in Karate. There are many styles of Karate and its hard to belive to me that there is no ground techniques. Just few techniques in one of so many diferent styles.>

Post: El Gato Negro:

Good afternoon gentlemen, I haven’t posted for a while because I couldn’t find the info I was looking for. My filing system leaves a lot to be desired(or so says my wife). However I did come across this quote amongst my papers. I didn’t originate it and unfortunately I don’t know who the author is but I would like to share it with you.

“The reality is that our body needs to have one clear way of moving, one flavor, that will then influence everything else we learn. So I would only recommend learning another art after your body has “become” one thing, one clear energy, and then you can let that express itself through any other method. It took me years to appreciate this in my own practice…..Don’t lose the ‘one clear taste’!”

I guess this is why the old senseis frowned upon mixing styles. If you think about it all styles basics are so similar that you can basically say they are the same. They just have different ways of expressing the movements. I recently watched a TKD class and the forms that they were doing looked just like the Heians only with wider stances. So I basically agree with the quote above. Also, if the style one practices doesn’t teach how to deal from the ground then how much of the other techniques they teach are really useless in combat.
El[/u >

Post: setsu nin to:

Nice to see you back Mr. El Gato Negro!

Very interesting theory, I am interesting what do you thing about opposite theory that you have to finde techniques that are adapted to you, so acording to these theory you have to mix styles.

Pls, dont take it wrong, I dont say that your theory is not good, or anything like that. I am just interesting in your poinion about other theory.>

Post: El Gato Negro:

Setsu Nin To-My old sensei used to emphasize modifying techniques. He would teach us something and after we learned it the way he taught it he would tell us to modify it and make it our own. I didn’t really understand what he was doing but I did as I was told. Today my sensei tells us to find our rythem and dance to our own beat. I have learned through reading that none of the masters today do or teach karate “exactly” as their teachers’ did. The curriculum is the same but they have found their own beat. And as their students progress they encourage them to find their own beat. So, if karate is being taught as it was meant to be, i.e. a combat oriented art that has side benefits of health and so forth, then I don’t see a need to study another art to become a complete warrior. But if an art has been watered down over the years then, yes, you may need to mix and match in order to become a proficient combatant. Also, I have noticed that people who mix and match and become really good at fighting tend to lose one of the benefits that come from training in TMA. All they seem to know is fighting and they are good at it but most people who train for years in TMA find a modicum of spirituallity. This is where the Docame in for the old masters. But MMA are fighters, and they tend to lose that side benefit of spirituallity.
El>

Post: setsu nin to:

people always have to developed technique to themselfs. What use of technique if it doesnt work good. Thats why same techniques will have always something diferent when two diferent persons use it.>

Post: El Gato Negro:

You’re absolutely right Setsu. I learned that that is what my sensei meant by finding your own beat. But I still don’t believe that a person needs to mix and match styles to become a good fighter, they just need a good teacher….oh yeah, and experience. When I trained under my old sensei, our white belts could beat green and some brown belts from different dojos. I believe this was due to the way sensei trained us.

By the way, Setsu, what is that saying under your posts. It looks like Latin and I can make out a few words but not enough to make much sense to me.>

Post: binhdinhboy:

my friend currently does kenpo and she said they have some stand up grappling and takedowns in their curriculum. they also practice takedown defenses but as far as ne waza or ground fighting, they barely even skim it.>

Post: setsu nin to:

El Gato Negro

I agree 100%. If you have exelent Sensei and if he teach you all rounded techniques thats more than enought.Good Sensei is realy important becouse good Sensei will make efficant technique from crap technique, but McSensei will make crap technique from good technique.
About these here :arrowd: . Its Latin and its from Bible.>

Post: setsu nin to:

binhdinhboy

Kempo from Okinawa is more similar to Karate, but traditional Japanese Kenpo is more similar to Jujutsu, also these is Kenpo as sword art. Maybe it wasnt Okinawa Kampo.>

Post: El Gato Negro:

Setsu-I figured it was from the bible and as far as I can make out it says something about a great and very old serpent sent by the devil to seduce the universe or somethinglike that. It’s been a really long time since my alter boy days so my Latin really sucks. It would really be nice if you told me what it actually says.

And you are exactly right. Mcsenseis mess up many techniques and they give us true seekers of the trueth a bad name. Sometimes I am tempted to revert back to the old ways of the old days. See, we used to do a thing called dojo busting. If we thought someone was teaching bullshiznit we would go to their dojo and expose them for the fakes they were. Of course my sensei didn’t approve of such actions and if he found out one of us participated then he made sure we payed in sweat and tears. But sometimes it was worth it just to see the shock on their faces.
El>

Post: setsu nin to:

El Gato Negro

Its Revelations 12:9. tis about how devil is throwen to Earth.>

Post: El Gato Negro:

Setsu-thankyou
El>

Post: setsu nin to:

No problem :)>

Post: DAT:

I’d like to pose this thought/question: It has been my observation that Okinawan styles (Shorin-Goju-Isshin-Shorinji) have more standup grappling (tuite) than Japanese styles. Of course this is a general statement. Many sensei add or flavor their curriculum with supplemental technique. But traditionally speaking, are we in agreement that the Okinawan styles mentioned above traditionally have more tuite than Japanese systems such as Shotokan and Shito? Wado being the exception.

Also, of the Okinawan styles mentioned which has the most tuite? Thanks.>

Post: setsu nin to:

Tuite are Okinawan grappling techniques involving joint manipulation, so ofcourse that they are more often in Okinawan styles than in Japanese styles. But it doesnt mean that Okinawan styles have more stand up grappling than Japanese styles.>

Post: DAT:

I’m a little confused. Could you expound on Japanese Karate “grappling”. With tuite there’s a block/strike than a joint lock, perhaps with some taisabaki and then perhaps a takedown, throw or controlling manuver. Is this what you mean by “grappling”?

I don’t see alot of that in the traditional curriculum of Japanese styles. Although as I said, individual senseis incorporate or bring in these techniques based on their own personal beliefs and/or supplemental training. I’d appreciate some more thoughts on techniques other than hand and foot strikes in the Japanese Karate realm.>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

You could probably find more tuide/kumiai/kansetsu waza in the traditional bunkai of many traditional kata. I remember when I was training in Gojo-ryu – there was practically no bunkai that did not include some kind of grapple. Then agian, Goju is known to be a very grappling-oriented style.>

Post: DAT:

That’s interesting, I did Okinawa-Te for a few years and Goju for about one year. Goju had a lot more tuite as you said. I wonder how Shorin-ryu and Isshin-ryu rank in terms of the amount of tuite based curriculum. Could this be a question of sensei specific rather than “ryu” specific? If one was to rank the amount of tuite in the various Okinawan arts I would guess; Shorinji, Goju, Shorin and Isshin in that order. Of course this is speculating from someone who has not been exposed to all of the systems. I wonder what others might think?>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

I figure that Shorinji actually wouldn’t have as much tuide as Goju or Uechi, since Shorinji is of the Shuri lineage, which is more focused on hitting people. Of course, all traditional Ryukyu kenpo would have heaps of tuide in it, but I figure the grapple is more of an accessory to a strke than an end in itself, whereas Naha styles like Goju and Uechi like to grab and fling people around a fair bit :twisted: From what I’ve seen of the Shuri styles, they prefer to grab people and smack them upside the head :mrgreen:>

Post: setsu nin to:

DAT

Did you mean just Karate styles from Japan or generaly all martial arts form Japan?>

Post: DAT:

I’m not quite sure what you are asking but my basic points are A) Okinawan styles such as Shorin, Isshin, Uechi, Goju, etc. generally have more tuite than Japanese styles such as Shotokan and Shito, and B) I was soliciting opinions as to which Okinawan styles possess the most tuite, a sort of tuite ranking. Hope that helps.>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Actually, Shito-ryu was founded by Mabuni Kenwa, who was Okinawan and had studied under some of the great karate luminaries of his day, including Higaonna Kanryo, the teacher of Miyagi Chojun. But you’re right – Shito is a heavily ‘Nipponised’ style and retains few native Okinawan traits in its training today. The same, though, could be said of almost any widely-practiced karate style today – even Goju looks much the same as any other karate style today. I didn’t learn much about tuide until I started training on my own, after leaving my dojo of some five or six years. I’m sure even Shotokan has a tuide syllabus if you look closely – after all, there is that famous story of Funakoshi subduing a mugger with a testicle lock :shock: so we can all assume that his personal tuide skills were top-notch :mrgreen: The current dearth of grappling and other corollary combat techniques in karate today is more the fault of the competition syndrome than anything else, IMHO. Still, hope remains, particularly in enclaves of serious, dedicated karateka who don’t give a shite about scoring points and who train in the old-school style. Uechi-ryu might well offer a very good insight into advanced tuide as it, like Naha/Goju-ryu, is relatively close to its Chinese roots and, unlike Goju, is not widespread at all to my knowledge.>

Post: setsu nin to:

DAT

So than probbably we are talking only about Karate. I thought that when you said Japanese stylesin begining you mean all Japanese styles, like Jujutsu, Kenpo (not Okinawa)….>

Post: DAT:

WvW,

So based on your experience Goju has the most tuite or standup grappling? I was into Goju for about a year, I liked it. Although I had to tone down the dynamic tension kata at my age. I would seriously consider going back to it if I could find a good compatible sensei. I worked out with an Uechi 4th dan and I like that as well. It reminded me of my Wing Chun.>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Dat: Goju and Uechi both, IMHO. They are said to be stylistically very similar. I’ve never seen Uechi in action though. Is it really like Wing Chun? Amazing! Uechi is said to be based on White Crane and Southern Black Tiger, the latter of which is a hard, forceful style, pretty much the antithesis of Wing Chun. Then again, it may well have been the White Crane emphasis that you saw – Wing Chun is actually a White Crane derivative as well. Can you describe what you saw a little. I’m interested to know more about the characteristics of Uechi as it is so rare compared to other Okinawan ryuha.>

Post: DAT:

Uechi is said to remain the closest to Chinese influence of the major styles. As far as Wing Chun comparison, both are: designed for close in fighting, I noitced a tan sau hand, theresticky hands are very close to chi sau, they have a slap block very simular to pak sau but most importantly it’s the intent and movement to move in quickly utilizing the centerline while keeping soft until the last moment. Uechi taught correctly is very soft hard like kung fu. Much more so than the hard soft of Goju. The sensei I was with, I was told by a higher ranking sensei, teaches a little too hard which takes away from the Chinese flavor. I found it very interesting. Unfortunately it’s hard to find. The mecca for Uechi is in the Massachusetts area and in Virgina. It’s very regional.

The only problem I see is that there are a lot of Uechi tournaments going on and as you know once an art hits the tournament scene it’s very hard to keep the orginal concepts from being de-emphasized in favor of punchy-kicky point scoring technique. I hope the keepers of the art don’t let traditional Uechi fall by the wayside.

Try these sites out:

http://www.uechi-ryu.org/archives/1998/jun/

http://www.uechi-ryu.com/

http://www.uechi-ryu-karate.com/

http://www.uechi-ryu.org/>

Post: setsu nin to:

I wouldnt say that Uerhy-ryu is so similar to Wing Chun, expecialy Crane part with its circular movements. In my opinion Kanbun Uechis Pangainoon was diferent that what we know as Uechy-ryu today. I dont say that there was drastic changes or that these are two diferent arts or anything like that, but in my opinion changes started when Kanei Uechi started with as he call it “innovations” in the style also Kanmei Uechi made some changes too…>

Post: DAT:

My foundation art is WC. And I am by no means a Uechi expert. I’m simply expressing my observations and my personal discoveries. My main point was that I felt Uechi had more “Chinese” in its current foundations than what I have been exposed to in the past with other Okinawan/Japanese based Karate. When I shared my Wing Chun moves and philosophies with the Uechi sensei he was in agreement with the connection. It’s not scientific or based on any widely held belief, just two guys comparing and contrasting.

However, despite what you might have read about Wing Chun and its relationship to crane, I take issue, at least partly. The fuk sau hand is very crane in appearance and in function and there are similar striking hands in both. But the intent is different. WC is much more direct with a lot less body english and less evasive. The more I think of it, the more I see crane but again, in my opinion, the intent and manifestation of the similar appearances are different.>

Post: setsu nin to:

Well yes, I agree that Uechy-ryu kept much of Chinese if we compare it to some other Karate style, but also it lose much of it if we compare it with Pangainoon.>

Post: shurite44:

Well I will throw in my two cents on grappling and karate styles. I have studied Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean styles. I can only speak from personal experience, I am sure many have had different experiences.

Mainland Japanese (Shotokan) and Korean Karate (Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do) arts that I have studied normally borrowed their grappling from indigenous Japanese grappling ju-jitsu & judo or hapkido (korean ju-jitsu) and some aikido. Although some Japanese schools (very rare) do practice a somewhat rare grappling (holding and stiking art) called hakuda & (seizing art) hakushu.

Okinawan Karate as I was taught had their own distinct form of grappling. It is very dissimilar to Japanese grappling. Many of the techniques were probably borrowed from the ancient indigenous Okinawan grappling art called Gotende. Lets be clear, this is my experience from my instructors and is no way representative of all Okinawan stylists.

Some styles actually interpret some movements in kata as grappling and many will refer to these techniques as tuite (Okinawan) or turite (japanese). These arts will usually also practice vital point strikes, or instant effect points (kyushu jitsu). I have practiced these latter two arts but I do not specialize in them. Quite frankly I have purposely distanced myself from these terms due to sensationalism now associated with the terms.

Since my original training was in a hard striking art I tend to lean towards the Okinawan style of grappling, especially the holding and hitting techniques. I do also interpret kata in my mind quite often as a seizing technique.

I hope this sheds a little more light on the subject. Like I said no flames please this is more just a explanation of my personal experiences with the different forms of karate.

Sorry for the long post, I know I am still a noobie here. :D>

Post: Hengest:

Quote:
Mainland Japanese (Shotokan) and Korean Karate (Tang Soo Do, Tae Kwon Do) arts that I have studied normally borrowed their grappling from indigenous Japanese grappling ju-jitsu & judo or hapkido (korean ju-jitsu) and some aikido. Although some Japanese schools (very rare) do practice a somewhat rare grappling (holding and stiking art) called hakuda & (seizing art) hakushu.

Although the grappling taught in class by Shotokan, TSD, and TKD, etc., may come from indiginous systems, wouldn’t it be fair to say that the kata still include grappling with Okinawan roots, even if they are no longer taught?

And have you come across the term “hakuda” in karate? I’ve only ever heard of one ryuha that uses that name for what it does, and that’s Fudo Chishin Ryu, a rather vicious jujutsu-type art. If you’ve come across the word elsewhere, I’d love to know more. :D>

Post: setsu nin to:

Yes, I have to admit too that I didnt heard fot Hakuda in Okinawa.>

Post: shurite44:

[quote=Hengest Although the grappling taught in class by Shotokan, TSD, and TKD, etc., may come from indiginous systems, wouldn’t it be fair to say that the kata still include grappling with Okinawan roots, even if they are no longer taught?[/quote 

You may not like my answer to this Hengest. I can only say “maybe”.

It is quite frankly difficult to say. If you look at many of the karate books from the turn of the century there is very little grappling. The throws in Funakoshi’s books may have been put there to honor someone he considered a mentor and friend, Jigoro Kano. Choki Motobu is pictured in Naihanchi kata doing some things that appear to be grappling like, but most likely are holding and striking techniques.

Choki’s older brother Choyu did practice a grappling art, “gotende”. By most accounts this was a soft style of grappling, not karate like. Some now say this is referred to as Motobu Ryu. I doubt the art of gotende and the techniques practice in Motobu Ryu today are the same. This art (gotende) according to an Okinawan master I know through an Instructor originally had no kata. So although it is indigenous Okinawan Te if you will it was not kata based. Remember Choyu was also taught shuri te by Bushi” Matsumura, this is probably the art he passed on that eventually morphed into Motobu Ryu.

The problem with finding grappling in kata is although a move may resemble a throw or takedown. Is that what the author of the kata intended. Very hard to say. Many who make these claims in my opinion have a difficult time backing it up with any sort of documented proof. It is easy to take a movement from kata and make it look like a throw. That does not mean the author of the kata had that in mind when he practiced that movement.

If you backed me against a wall to give you an answer I would qualify it this way. There are no Ju based grappling in shuri kata. Anything that would resemble grappling in the kata would be done by seizing and striking your opponent into a vulnerable position. And then locking him to the ground, or striking him and making your escape. Karate philosophy when it comes to takedowns is confrontational, not pliable.

[quote=Hengest And have you come across the term “hakuda” in karate? I’ve only ever heard of one ryuha that uses that name for what it does, and that’s Fudo Chishin Ryu, a rather vicious jujutsu-type art. If you’ve come across the word elsewhere, I’d love to know more. :D[/quote 

I do know some shurite kempo schools in the U.S. that have hakuda (white strike, or striking without impurity) in their curriculum. The seizing portion of hakuda they refer to as hakushu. I have the same impression of this as you, viscous, and painful. And that is just the practice methods. I do not think it is part of karate, but it has been adopted by them to supplement their training. Are the movements in kata, probably not. :D>

Post: shurite44:

[quote=setsu nin to Yes, I have to admit too that I didnt heard fot Hakuda in Okinawa.[/quote 

Setsu nin to, I will post a copy and paste from one of my Instructors about the history of Hakuda. This instructor’s hobby is martial arts history, and one of his original instructors from Okinawa was also a martial arts historian, ( translator of Choki Motobu’s book Tode Jitsu to English in 1977).

The History of Hakuda

Hakuda (Baida in China) was introduced to Japan in the early 17th century by a Nagasaki physician name Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitoki who learned this hard percussive art, and resuscitation techniques while studying medicine in China. Akiyama later changed his philosophy to an art of pliancy, thus today he is considered one of the inspirations for Yoshin-ryu Ju-jitsu. Akiyama was possibly the first person to introduce a pure striking art to mainland Japan from China.>

Post: setsu nin to:

shurite44

There is no doubt that Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitoki of Nagasaki was historical person, but with all respect to your teacher, story about Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitoki and his role in developing Jujutsu is more fantasy than reality. Just same as other very popular story about Fukuno-ryu and Chin Genpin and his role in developin Jujutsu.
As I said Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitoki was real person and its truth that he was founder of Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu, BUT there were two schools of Yoshin-ryu, second one and older one was Yoshin-ryu of Miura Yoshin (born as Nakamura Sakyodayu). His Yoshin-ryu is also known as Miura-ryu becouse after his death his students were separated in two groops, Yoshin-ryu and Miura-ryu.
Now first its important to say that Miura Yoshins Yoshin-ryu is older than Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitokis Yoshin-ryu. Many different ryuhas were developed from Miura Yoshins Yoshin-ryu, some moust known are Tenjin Shinyo-ryu, Takeda-ryu, Shin Yoshin-ryu… Also bouth Yoshin-ryu schools come from same area (Nagasaki in Hizen) and use techniques with similar strikes to vital points. Bouth founders studied medicine… So probably Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitokis Yoshin-ryu was developed from Miura Yoshins Yoshin-ryu.

Also Hakuda in not “pure striking art”, it have lot of elements of grappling, but atemi have main point in it.>

Post: shurite44:

[quote=setsu nin to 
There is no doubt that Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitoki of Nagasaki was historical person, but with all respect to your teacher, story about Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitoki and his role in developing Jujutsu is more fantasy than reality.[/quote 

His explanation does not say he developed ju-jitsu. It simply says the man was an inspiration for Yoshin-ryu ju-jitsu. As far as I know this is accepted as legitimate history.

[quote=setsu nin to  As I said Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitoki was real person and its truth that he was founder of Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu,[/quote 

As far as ju-jitsu is concerned that is the only claim he is making.

[quote=setsu nin to Also Hakuda in not “pure striking art”, it have lot of elements of grappling, but atemi have main point in it.[/quote 

Hakuda is written with three characters, they are translated as white strike. The use of white here means pure or lack of impurity. This is a translation of the Chinese characters that are used to write the name hakuda. The use of the character for white or pure is not there to signify the lack of anything in the art, but to put emphasis on the fact the striking is true or effective. I don’t think you will find much dispute about this.

I do agree the method of practice I have seen by people that claim to practice hakuda does have grappling.>

Post: setsu nin to:

There is all story about Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitoki and developing jujutsu. Point is that he didnt do almoust anything. He developed Yoshin-ryu from Yoshin-ryu.
Hakuda (Baida in China) was introduced to Japan in the early 17th century by a Nagasaki physician name Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitoki who learned this hard percussive art, and resuscitation techniques while studying medicine in China.
Before Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitoki finde Akiyama Shirobei Yoshitokis Yoshin-ryu almoust same techniques were developed by Miura Yoshin in Miura Yoshins Yoshin-ryu.
That was my point.

I know for only one Hakuda ryuha in Japan and that Fudo Chishin-ryu Hakuda. Its techniques have lot of grappling elements, but atemi have main point in it. Do you know any other Hakuda ryuha?>

Post: shurite44:

Well there is another way to write hakuda and it does have a ju-jitsu tie. I have met someone that is affiliated with this and I assume it is the ryu you are talking about, (just guessing here). I do not know much about it to be honest.

He showed me some of the things they do and it looked very ju-jutsu like. It was nothing like the stuff my instructor teaches. He did not know how to write the Chinese characters very well but told me the name referred to a a location, that was a valley between to mountains. I am not familiar with Fudo Chishin-ryu Hakuda, but does its history talk about such a location? If it does we are talking about different things.

The research about Yoshitoki and the ties to hakuda (Baida) and China I believe were done in the Ohio State University Library, and I do not think the book was translated to English. I remember there was work done with a Dr. Wu to translate the manuscript. I will find out for you though and maybe would could clear this up, and probably learn something in the process.

This won’t be quick sorry, most of this I am writing from memory. I am going to first find the Chinese characters and try to post so you can look at them.
:)>

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