Kyokushin mawashi geri

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Kyokushin mawashi geri
Original Poster: zefff
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 09-04-2007, 14:01

Orginal Post: zefff: This technique has always intrigued me and has always caught me out. Please can anyone explain the precise mechanics behind its execution and how to effectively defend against it. Here is a lovely vid :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-mnpo4RYZs

Post: The BadBoy:

Damn that’s sweet :twisted:>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

It seems very similar to a Thai “cut kick,” with the most obvious distinction between the two being the action of the knee. At the apex of the kick’s height, what you want to do is like if you were trying to about-face so that your kicking leg’s hip joint gains the space to change vector and come downward. If you follow through the natural movement without this about face, you have a standard roundhouse. Your planted foot will either need good flexibility or you will have to be able to move it while supporting all of your weight, which is of course something you should have picked up if you can execute any complicated kick or even heavy punches.>

Post: samurai6string:

Word, it all appears to be in the action of the planted foot/hips. Where’s op on this one? :lol:>

Post: opariser1001:

god that vid makes me wanna go train karate right now!!

anyways i’m not so good at explaining technical stuff…TTT said it pretty well. they call that the Brazilian kick in Kyokushin. just goes over the guard by making an extra kind of “swivel” point at the knee so it’s free to go higher than expected. it also acts as kind of a fake because you obviously didn’t expect it to go over your guard like that. really hard to explain this kick though. it takes a lot of flexibility and a good pivot. a good way to defend it is to close the distance with your opponent or do a higher block that would kind of block an axe kick too i guess. this is all just speaking from my own experimentation though, as my teacher doesn’t teach this kick, he is very traditional. sorry if this doesn’t really help, but the best way to find out is to actually see it done slowly in person repeatedly.

feitosa is the man!>

Post: zefff:

Ahh so its not a traditional technique then?

Ive been clouted a few times with it in sparring but the only people who’ve used it against me are people who are passing through the gym so I dont get the chance to pick their brains.

I try to always close in on a kick if I can but this one seems to always get me as I close with my guard up, then as I counter, usually with a punch I get clouted by the delayed kick as they lean back just out of range. Maybe I should go back to kicking the kick so I keep my hands free to guard??? :?

I watched the Feitosa vid again and it does seem that he delays the snap of the hips and planted foot right until the end. I’ll try to remember this but all of the JiuJutsu and Karate guys I train regularly with use a more orthadox mawashi geri.>

Post: opariser1001:

yeah i guess that would be another reason that it fakes people out, the delay in the actual connection of the kick. it is definitely not a traditional technique but these days a lot of Kyokushin fighters try to use it. few can do it like Feitosa and Filho though.

what do you mean by “kicking the kick”?>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

I thought more about my technical breakdown, and I realized that somebody who wasn’t already familiar with good kicking technique might not “get it.”

So, just in case there are less experience lurkers or such about, take this as the best technique coaching you’ll get online. :lol:

First things first, since you’re practicing and learning a new technique, safety is paramount. So, the mechanic I will describe is not as the video above shows it but includes a full rotation follow-through to reduce the chance for knee injury and will aim at the thigh instead of the head so that balance and flexibility is less of an issue. This is a three step mechanic.

Step 1: Assuming an orthodox stance, begin a rear-foot roundhouse by turning your left foot counter clockwise AT LEAST to 9 o’clock and NO MORE THAN 6 O’clock. Elevate your right leg, knee bent, so that your thigh is ninety degrees out from your body and lean back over your left foot slightly to maintain balance. Keep your hands up and your eyes on your opponent.

Step 2: Quickly and explosively pivot your hips so that your right knee is pointing at a downward angle. Snap your leg straight for the kick. Your instep or lower shin should make contact with the outside of the thigh, generally pretty high on the leg, although you could aim for the knee (a devastating strike, DO NOT USE IN FRIENDLY SITUATIONS).

Step 3: At this point, your left knee will be undergoing some rotational torque, so it is important to remove this by following through with the motion. Turn your left foot again as far as you can get the toes at least to 3 O’Clock and possibly all the way around to 12 again. As soon as the impact of the kick is done, you should be bringing the right foot towards the ground and bring the upper body back to vertical, so that when your rotation is done you can re-assume a solid base and stance. You will temporarily give up your back and will need to turn your around to the other side to maintain eye contact.

As you practice the mechanic to make the technique more versatile to you, there are three important considerations: 1) Maintaining balance while elevating the kick, 2) stopping the rotation and retracting back to orthodox stance without spinning the follow through and 3) gaining accuracy. If you do not typically practice head kicks, 1 may be difficult at first but is eventually not even worth mentioning regardless of the exact kick used. 2 depends on the durability of your planted leg’s knee and the mobility of that same foot. For a perfect range of motion and retraction, Step 1 should go turn to about 7 O’Clock all on the ball of the foot and at the beginning of Step 2, step down on the heel to arrest the motion. When Step 2 is complete, you can pivot again in reverse with ease. 3 is all in the training, so get a friend with some pads or high pain tolerance.>

Post: zefff:

[quote=opariser1001 
what do you mean by “kicking the kick”?[/quote 

Exactly what it says on the tin really. The ultimate destructive benefit is to be gained by actually kicking the leg that is swinging towards you with a more direct kick (or knee) of your own. It is a Panantukan technique but also taught in other arts. Limb destruction is a higher Wing Chun technique but its rarely taught plus I know it is taught in Muay Thai as well for sure but you dont see many pulled of in a well matched contests because of the risk.

Basically as the round kick arcs in I would throw a front kick to a slower moving part of the attacking limb – the shin, knee or thigh. The risk is if you miss you are wide open and then have to hurriedly blend with the attack so its safer to stomp the hip which is moving even slower as its closer to the centre axis and is a bigger target than the knee….or just block.

So to break it down the options in terms of efficiency are:

1) directly attack the attacking limb (foot, shin, knee, thigh)
2) attack the axis
3) attack the planted leg
4) parry, move and angle off to attack elsewhere
5) block

I suppose there is also a ‘0’ option which is to directly attack the attacking limb while simultaneously deploying option 4. This is the definition of economy in motion that is Wing Chun which normal people cannot attain. :lol:

Me?….For now I will be looking to throw a front kick to the hip while keeping my high guard.>

Post: opariser1001:

the only ones i would do out of that list are parry and angle off, and attack the standing leg, sweeping them off their feet, but if they throw a back kick i have front kicked their hip before to throw them off balance.

the rest of those, like attacking the limb, just don’t seem practical to me.>

Post: zefff:

No worries, you really have to rush in and they can be risky but if you can predict the path of an attack they can be devastating. For ring based arts its probably safer to use the knees and elbows. Im sure you must have heard of limb destruction (Gunting) before? It is the same basic principle as is used in probably all forms of weaponry where you slash/stab/chop the opponents weapon arm as its extended at the wrist, elbow, inner bicep and armpit before working your way into the torso.

Elbowing a punch is a lot easier. You can have your elbow meet the knuckle of a jab or the bicep or forearm of a hook. Ive even heard of people in the Phillipines with mad conditioned, calloused knuckles punching a punch in duels! I wouldnt do that though!

Anyway I totally hear you on the practicality thing but blocking alone doesnt really get me anywhere as I usually then find myself waiting for their combo to end. These techniques are designed to rudely interupt or jam their flow with your own. I dunno if that makes sense?

peace>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

The kick looks like the way you should throw a roundhouse. At least the way it is taught in Shaolin. Except of course we dont go for the head.>

Post: samurai6string:

We actually practiced alot of limb destruction in my jujutsu classes. I’ve not heard it called gunting, our sensei would refer to it as “de-fanging the serpent.” I don’t know if he just made that up or what, but it kinda sounds cool. :lol: I like parrying a punch outside and doing a knuckle rake over the nerve plexus on the upper arm.>

Post: opariser1001:

[quote=BLACK PANTA The kick looks like the way you should throw a roundhouse. At least the way it is taught in Shaolin. Except of course we dont go for the head.[/quote 

why don’t you go for the head in Shaolin?

[quote=zefff No worries, you really have to rush in and they can be risky but if you can predict the path of an attack they can be devastating. For ring based arts its probably safer to use the knees and elbows. Im sure you must have heard of limb destruction (Gunting) before? It is the same basic principle as is used in probably all forms of weaponry where you slash/stab/chop the opponents weapon arm as its extended at the wrist, elbow, inner bicep and armpit before working your way into the torso.

Elbowing a punch is a lot easier. You can have your elbow meet the knuckle of a jab or the bicep or forearm of a hook. Ive even heard of people in the Phillipines with mad conditioned, calloused knuckles punching a punch in duels! I wouldnt do that though!

Anyway I totally hear you on the practicality thing but blocking alone doesnt really get me anywhere as I usually then find myself waiting for their combo to end. These techniques are designed to rudely interupt or jam their flow with your own. I dunno if that makes sense?

peace[/quote 

i see what you mean we are taught a bit of that in Kyokushin and my teacher told me stories about guys blocking front kicks and roundhouse kicks by punching the leg. pretty cool. i would rather just stick my elbows or knees out and let them kick or punch them rather than actually throw an elbow or a knee at an oncoming attack – in fact, i do this frequently. it works pretty well. maybe i’m just not quick enough or have good enough timing yet to do those techniques you mentioned.>

Post: lakan_sampu:

It looks like a cut kick by Bryan Fury in Tekken…it sure demands flexibility. I tried it earlier this day and it hurts…

as for “kicking a kick” which is practiced in FMA, I seldomly use it because I am not that flexible yet. I seldomly become lucky to pull off a defense like that, usually I can counter with it when defening against a low or mid kick. We also train to that aginst hand strikes though, and I always lag behind because I lack flexibility. We usually hit a joint or a large muscle of a limb when doing that.>

Post: shurite44:

It is very difficult to strike a strike. As in kicking a kick or elbowing a punch.

Remember he starts first, if he is the same speed or faster than you then it is nearly impossible to have the reaction time needed to do this. Especially if it is a trained fighter.

Best defense against a round kick is to cover your body or head or both. In other words get your arms and hands over the target. Dodging ducking or getting out of the way can work but you still run into the problem of him starting first, now you have to move your entire body in the time it takes him to throw a round kick, don’t forget you also have to read the technique and allow for your own reaction time.

Not saying it is impossible to strike a strike but it is probably not going to happen with an opponent of similar speed and skill.

With a round kick like this one you have to resist the urge to reach out to block. He is throwing the kick up and over the block. Cover the head keeping the hands close to the body and head, don’t reach.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=shurite44 It is very difficult to strike a strike. As in kicking a kick or elbowing a punch.[/quote 
No, it isn’t.

Quote:
Remember he starts first, if he is the same speed or faster than you then it is nearly impossible to have the reaction time needed to do this. Especially if it is a trained fighter.

This assumes that your strike is the same as his strike, i.e. same limb length, same path, same destination, etc. If Zefff is punching at my face with a right hook, I can use a left jab directly at his biceps to jam the punch. My jab will land before his hook 99.99% of the time, not because I’m amazing but because my jab has less distance to travel. It isn’t about speed, it’s about space. Fighting is always about space.

Quote:
Best defense against a round kick is to cover your body or head or both. In other words get your arms and hands over the target.

And then when your arms and hands are broken?

Quote:
Dodging ducking or getting out of the way can work but you still run into the problem of him starting first, now you have to move your entire body in the time it takes him to throw a round kick,

Or reorient your body in such a way that the target is in a place where the strike is less effective. Generally speaking, the reason people don’t find ‘dodging’ effective is because they try to move away from the strike. If you moved into it, you have much better results.

Quote:
don’t forget you also have to read the technique and allow for your own reaction time.

Reading the technique is pointless. You see motion, you react. Then, because you didn’t waste time, you walk home healthy.

Quote:
Not saying it is impossible to strike a strike but it is probably not going to happen with an opponent of similar speed and skill.

Skill doesn’t exist in the way people want to think it does. Speed is irrelevant.

Quote:
With a round kick like this one you have to resist the urge to reach out to block. He is throwing the kick up and over the block. Cover the head keeping the hands close to the body and head, don’t reach.

This kick is easily blocked, actually, with a same-side upward hard-block, you know, those blocks you see karateka do all the time. Doing this will make the kick graze the outside of the arm, or land on top of the elbow rather than your head/neck. Your elbow is significantly harder and pointer than your head/neck, so you may actually cause them to break their foot (it is impossible to get the shin into to play at head height unless you’re kicking somebody significantly shorter than yourself). Either way, a SIMPLE block that most modern MAists despise is the correct solution. Oddly enough, it’s also the solution that the parent art of the kick would advocate. Odd how traditional strikes are defeated with traditional defenses.>

Post: zefff:

LOL Des actually sounds like a Wing Chun man for most of that answer. As for striking the strike or kicking the kick you can see it in the ‘Buakaw vs Sun Tao’ vid on the homepage here:

http://www.fightauthority.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=908

About halfway through Sun Tao throws a front kick as Buakaw throws a roundhouse…watch what happens! 8)>

Post: graham1:

Excuse me if I’m pointing out the obvious but sparring & fighting experience counts for a lot when it comes to blocking attacking techniques. Noticing the opponent setting him/herself up allows you to go to your guard position so that you’re halfway to, hopefully, being able to deal with the attack with your block/guard or offensive manoeuvre. Waiting for the actual technique will always get you tagged. This kind of experience also teaches you not to focus on your opponent’s attacks but to expand your attention to as much of his/her body as possible & just see them coming, & react from that.>

Post: booch:

i watched the fight vid. look when he lifts his leg and drops his knee and changes the angle. I got caught before>

Post: lakan_sampu:

striking a strike is not that difficult. I would agree to evading in such a simple way as moving beyond the reach (not farther but nearer in a different angle) of an attack and striking a joint or a muscle..>

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