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New to this..Which is best?
Original Poster: riconw11
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 26-05-2005, 13:43

Orginal Post: riconw11: I wish to start studying one of the japanse martial arts but am unsure which is seen to be the most effective in a street situation…I look at Aikido and it is an attractive art but I sometimes wonder how often does one realistically have so much room to throw?

I would very much appreciate any views as to which art I should try.

Post: setsu nin to:

riconw11

If you practice enough and if you are enough good any martial art will be street effective.
Noone here cant choose martial art for you. If you whant that we choose it to you, or recomande some Japanese art to you than I will say Jujutsu, bamboo Aikido, lil’sword Karate, jlambvo Taijutsu… but maybe Kenpo is best for you.
We may just point some art to you if you tell us more about you and what you whant from martial arts, also we may try to answer some questions if you have them.>

Post: bamboo:

Depends on the type of person you are, what you want, the dojo, and most of all the teacher.

I practice aikido in an ASU affiliated club in an extemely martial dojo, go across town to another aikido dojo and its completely the opposite, they don’t practice in a martial sense in any form of the idea.

Do you want striking? throwing? both?

The art will of course be coloured by the dojo cho and his/her instructors.

Go to a dojo, watch the students then the teacher, talk to them, see if your comfortable. Take a class or two (should be free), don’t sign a contract and most of all, don’t believe what you read on the internet.

best of luck,

bamboo>

Post: angryrocker4:

well to be honest in my personal experience, 75-90% of the time you’ll end up on the ground, so jujutsu or some type of ground focused fighting would be my recomendation. I’d also get some type of stand up training to balance things out, which i think jujutsu covers, someone will correct me if I’m wrong.

I’ll let the more experienced guys give the details, do RESEARCH though and if one style jumps out at you, thats probably the one for you. and like people here told me, if it seems like BS then it probably is.

Check the styles section and look at the links, they should help you find something reputable in your area. Thats how I came into my style, and I’ve found it compliments my other “fighting background” quite nicely.>

Post: Bushi:

What city do you live in?>

Post: riconw11:

i live in London, UK.. my fighting background is 5 years practising Krav Maga. i guess i am looking for something that is as realistic but that offers something new. i believe the choices that are available to me are: aikido, judo, shotokan karate, samurai jui jitsu..and on the non japanese side: taekwondo, thaiboxing and kickboxing.

aikido and judo, seemingly do not deal enough with strikes and blocks in an offensive manner which as some of us will know is sometimes necessary in the street. i seem to be veering towards karate.. any views?>

Post: Ninja Kl0wn:

[quote=riconw11 thaiboxing[/quote 

I may be a little biased, but I say go with that one.>

Post: Oh:

You should practice muai thai, that f**ks people up. Also i hear theres a very good muai thai gym somewhere up in the UK.>

Post: bamboo:

You want strong offence- go muay thai
Hard physical throws- judo
amazing punching- boxing

Quote:
aikido and judo, seemingly do not deal enough with strikes and blocks in an offensive manner

sigh…don’t believe the hype.>

Post: zefff:

LMAO @ oh!

riconw11 – Living in London mate you will access to almost every well known art practiced to high standards. Theres loads of MMA, BJJ and wrestling and even JKD, Eskrima/Kali etc too. What was wrong with the Krav Maga? I dunno anything about traditional Japanese arts but Id imagine London is saturated with them.

If I were you Id go and just jump in there and test the waters for yourself. Noone else can tell you whats what cos even if you find the best club (potentially), you still have to gel with it so you can extract the knowledge and ethics. Whats best for me might not be best for you if your head isnt in it.

Bamboo: just seen your post. Surely you have to accept that a lot of Aikido exponents are going to shy away from facing the reality of combat as the nature of the art and how its promoted is designed to be very attractive to that type of person – One who at their core, is afraid to hurt or be hurt. Then they become good enough to teach it and then they promote their ideas of what is best to others like themselves.

Its like Wing chun attracting those who are weak…they take it because they are told it is the art for weaklings and women where skill and groin strikes overcome brute strength. :lol:

NOI I am just trying to say that I think general opinion of a system cannot be changed over the internet…okay Shaolin Do was an exception! :roll:>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
Bamboo: just seen your post. Surely you have to accept that a lot of Aikido exponents are going to shy away from facing the reality of combat as the nature of the art and how its promoted is designed to be very attractive to that type of person – One who at their core, is afraid to hurt or be hurt. Then they become good enough to teach it and then they promote their ideas of what is best to others like themselves.

I agree that many exponents do portray that image, but thats the practitioners, not the art itself.
What i’m tired of is the blanket statement that because its aikido, were all a bunch of tree hugging pussies. I know the general image of my art cannot and will not be changed over the internet, but I can atleast show that there are one or two of us out there that will stand up and be counted.

I like to fall back on my Black Panta example, he came to visit my dojo last year and honestly walked away thinking that we where an aikido hybrid and we were not actually practicing true aikido. When he found out that we follow an original student of O sensei and my wife put him through the floor in a “gentle manner”, he “saw the light”.

For the record, noone ever gets on these boards and says- “wow, I went to an aikido dojo last night and those bastards where freakin’ efficient! They invited me on the mat and I tried to resist and got my ass handed to me… No cooperation there!”, no , they always talk about the dance schools and wrist grabs and how they “know” it won’t work because they watched a beginners class.

I’m not sure how this turned into a rant so for that I apologize, not meant at you Zefffer, just the uneducated ilk of the world in general.

I obviously have a chip on my shoulder and a lack of caffeine, till next time!

-bamboo>

Post: zefff:

[quote=bamboo 
I like to fall back on my Black Panta example, he came to visit my dojo last year and honestly walked away thinking that we where an aikido hybrid and we were not actually practicing true aikido. When he found out that we follow an original student of O sensei and my wife put him through the floor in a “gentle manner”, he “saw the light”.
[/quote 

yeah but Panta doesnt know ‘the real kungfu’! :lol: :lol: :lol:>

Post: riconw11:

nothing was or is wrong with krav maga..i love it – but i also want to add something to my knowledge of something new.. i guess i might go for muay thai.. i’ll give it a go. i went to a ju jitsu class a while back and was unable to gel with the people and the style of teaching… everyone was being told how effective it is and relying on their coloured belts as a sign of their competence…perhaps in the dojo but not in the street… i’ll try muay thai and then if i don’t like it i’ll try the others…. no word for anyone on karate???>

Post: bamboo:

I’m a big fan of kyukushin karate or any style that uses frequent and hard sparring in training.

A karate sensei (4th dan i think) once told me that if they don’t spar for real (not points) they might as well be learning it from a book.

-bamboo>

Post: opariser1001:

i guess i forgot to post….yes! kyokushin karate! it will definitely make your body strong…but you will be lacking head punches and grappling. if you don’t mind that, kyokushin karate is a very tough style to take. of course, it does depend on the dojo. But generally, if you wanna sweat and work hard, and do hard fighting, Kyokushin karate is a great way to go.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Are you looking to study a Japanese martial art, or Thai Boxing? I’m not trying to be rude, but you say both, and if you want a Japanese art you’re going to be disappointed. On the other hand, if you want something that combines the brutal simplicity of boxing with brutally painful leg kicks for sheer brutality, Thai Boxing is a great choice.>

Post: riconw11:

well i originally wanted to try a japanse martial art..but someone else suggested thai boxing and so i listened… the karate offered would be ‘shotokan karate’.. please excuse my ignorance..is that the same as kuyoshin?? if i were to stick with only japanese martial arts, which is the most effective from an early point in training?>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Kyokushin was derived from Shotokan (I believe), but the training methods are supposed to be quite different, with Kyokushin placing more emphasis on full-contact training. Which is more effective is going to depend on the teacher, but I can tell you that almost without exception a school that allows you to try out what you’re learning and experiment on the other students (in a safe environment of course) is going to produce better students more quickly.>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

Please don’t take this as a criticism of Shotokan Karate, because I’m sure there are good Shotokan Dojos out there, but the CHANCES of you having a Shotokan Dojo in the area that will make you a better fighter than the Muay Thai gym are pretty slim. Shotokan unfortunately has a fairly high instance of McDojoism.

Take a free trial class of both the Shotokan and the Muay Thai. I guarantee you the difference will be ridiculously blatantly obvious, unless you happen to have a serious hardcore Shotokan place near you.

I’ve been taking Muay Thai for a while now, and I also take Taekwondo, and I must say (this is just my personal opinion) I believe that Muay Thai is THE greatest striking art on the planet.>

Post: zefff:

so 8limb, why do you take TKD?>

Post: raze737:

I personally like Japanese martial arts. Im currently training in Goshin Jujitsu & Budo Taijutsu.>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

zefff

I take TKD because my instructor is a 5th degree blackbelt, has a ton of experience including American rules full contact kickboxing, and he was able to show me that a person can use TKD effectively in combat. When you spar with him he lightning fast and can send one of those spinning back kicks thundering into your stomach so quick. Since I started taking TKD, my speed has increased, and I’ve gained several new strategies and techniques to add to my repetoir that I did not get just from Muay Thai.

If you mean, why do I take TKD if I’m badmouthing Shotokan, then the reason is that just like probably 9/10 TKD dojangs are crap, the ratio is probably about the same for Shotokan. And besides, I still think Muay Thai is better, even though TKD has something different to offer. And this guy said he’s looking for some readily street applicable stuff, and MT gets you striking pretty effectively pretty quickly.>

Post: riconw11:

thanks for all ur help so far..its making lots of sense.. on the muay thai subject.. how much of it is a sport and how much is it a self-defense slash defend by attack system? what kind of things r learned?>

Post: kichigai:

Riconw11,
A while ago I heard the Japanese police trialed changing over from judo to aikido for their basic restraint training. It wasn’t a successful trial so the resorted back to judo.

Although it is not a fair comparison, it seems that it would take an individual longer to realise the concepts of aikido than it would for judo.

Just bear in mind that aikido is a passive art that focusses on redirecting an attack.

Personally for street sense, the japanese art I would prefer would be kyokushin karate or any other hard karate style e.g. seidokan etc.>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
A while ago I heard the Japanese police trialed changing over from judo to aikido for their basic restraint training. It wasn’t a successful trial so the resorted back to judo.

The japanese RIOT police still attend a year long aikido training course, this has been and still is in existance. The normal police train in judo just like the elementry school students. There was no switch back and forth. What you wrote implies they tried it and it failed miserably, this is wrong.

Infact, being rather familiar with judo, I must ask: What techniques of “restaint” could they use for arresting and transporting suspects?

-bamboo>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

[quote=bamboo 
Infact, being rather familiar with judo, I must ask: What techniques of “restaint” could they use for arresting and transporting suspects?

-bamboo[/quote 

Step 1: Hard Ippon Seionage on the cement or asphalt.
Step 2: Drag suspect anywhere you want to.>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

[quote=8LimbsScientist Step 1: Hard Ippon Seionage on the cement or asphalt.
Step 2: Drag suspect anywhere you want to.[/quote 

Two points of contention, sir.

Firstly, (at least from my own experience) it’s really quite hard to pull ippon seioinage (or in fact most nagewaza demanding that much body contact on someone who simply refuses to engage and doesn’t want to be grabbed, even someone with no training. I am aware of and have watched the video version of Bas Ruten’s Big Book of Combat and I do love his adaptation of basic judo throws and takedowns for the street, but even then, these should be weapons of opportunity rather than a policeman’s primary arsenal. They are useful skills and I personally like them a lot, but – at least to my mind – should not be the first emphasis for a policeman’s defensive and arresting tactics training.

Secondly, consider the legal issues of pulling an explosive takedown like that on a suspect. Bam goes the perp on concrete, crack goes his skull/neck/miscellaneous bodypart, and the whole force is in a furor over the ensuing government enquiry and media feeding frenzy. As it is, it is this very problem that keeps many highly effective fighting systems from being taught officially to police forces in many westernised countries – use of appropriate force has to be taken into account when training law enforcement personnel. Again, I emphasise that it is a useful skill, but the context in which it is to be used has to be taken into account – Japan (to my knowledge) is not especially prone to incredibly violent crime or criminals that have to be treated with such a level of violence. Unless someone works in a system of judo training that addresses the fine graduations of escalating force between the “off” and “liquify” settings, the police would be better off training in the existing aikido system as taught by Yoshinkan. Pain compliance, controlled takedowns and small joint restraints, if done right, should be able to induce the desired result with far less potential for permanent damage.

All hypothetically, if I had to train the Japanese police force by picking from fighting systems already extant and widely available in Japan but had my way otherwise, I would likely pick either a progressive koryu style like Genbukan or Bujinkan bujutsu, aikijutsu or a gendai aikido style (Yoshinkan, simply because they have a reputation) and field-strip it to be taught in about three months. Depending on the assessed needs of the training group, I would likely throw in concepts and training methods from something like olympic wrestling, emphasising free movement drills with graduated resistance to train prolonged control of a live opponent and simulate the chaos and confusion of grappling in a real fight without having to worry about injurious strikes (those get thrown in during full randori) every single training session.

Just IMHO, I prefer wrasslin’ to judo for pure control, simply because a good deal of modern judo (especially as taught in Japan) is about fishing for throws (read: too much overcommitted sutemi-waza with poor landings inconducive to controlling someone on the ground) whereas wrestling is more balanced across the board – positional and postural control are every bit as important as actually effecting takedowns. Judo still is excellent for training for combat while wearing clothing, but that to my mind is more an issue of training style than anything else and that can be done through randori while wearing gi or even operational clothing.

Two cents – got change?>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Great post, Wilhelm :D. That, of course, is why when you do throw them you have to first “entangle” yourself with them by accident, and then “accidentally” fall onto their leg and break it. Of course, that probably doesn’t look as innocent when a police officer does it.>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

Lol that WAS a great post.

I hate to say it, but my original post was meant as a joke, lol. But I’m glad I made the joke because my useless post elicited a useful one, lol!>

Post: kichigai:

I stand corrected.
I am surrounded by black belts, I feel like a grain of sugar in an ant hole :)>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

The last (and only) black belt I had expired almost ten years ago. I’m starting over again in (mainly) three systems, two of which have no ranking systems and I’m a rank novice in the third.>

Post: bamboo:

My big fancy black belt only serves to hold up my pants and apparantly lures high level instructors to rip me apart with ongoing critic. :wink:

-bamboo>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

At least yours holds up your pants, bamboo! Mine were notorious for dropping back in my old karate class. And back then, I wasn’t really in the habit of wearing underwear, which I still am not, come to that :lol:>

Post: bamboo:

Willy,

They actually do hold up my hakama since I tie it into the belt, just easier to keep the damned thing on and stable.

-bamboo>

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