Sutemi waza?

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Sutemi waza?
Original Poster: dojutsu
Forum: Japanese Martial Arts
Posted On: 30-01-2007, 17:30

Orginal Post: dojutsu: Now forgive me because i know hardly anything about japanese martial arts, but i decided to start reading into them out of curiousity.

I saw a brief mention on sutemi waza, or the “self-sacrifice”throw (or something like that) and it basically said that it places the user in a “disadvantagous” position after the throw. Is this strictly true?

Now having not seen any sutemi waza throws, and as i dont know anyone into the japanese arts, i was wondering what use anyone on here found for such a type of throw.

Is it a good set up for groundwork or something?

Post: Tease T Tickle:

They’re “sacrifice” throws because the throwing motion requires nage to fall onto their own back. If uke is skilled enough, he can land in such a way that he will land on top of nage for ne waza, or in sport judo, so that uke receives the score for the throw. Depending on the school, there’s roughly 20 of these throws and they range from incredibly similar to western wrestling suplexes to the distinctively Japanese tomoe nage.>

Post: bamboo:

Interesting that you chose a distinctly japanese flavoured name if your not much into the japanese influenced arts.

-bamboo>

Post: samurai6string:

tomoe nage=my favorite throw of all time. :D I also like to go from a “failed” tomoe nage into a triangle choke by wrapping with the outstretched leg. :twisted:

Another “sacrifice” throw that I liked, but can’t remember the Japanese for, was something we sometimes refered to as the “Baseball slide” throw. I’m sure you can imagine how that one is executed.>

Post: dojutsu:

Well my name really came around when i first started getting into asian culture in general, and i was attracted to the Japanese language. My name is a botched creation from unreliable translations that i thought meant something like “The way of martial method”, or “the way- martial method”. Its probably nothing like that in actual translation but i liked the ring to “dojustu” after a while:D

I had also seen a Japanese Ju Jutsu demonstration by people who ran a club that I wanted to join like you wouldnt believe. But i got the wrong information from a friend regarding where the classes were run and never found the place lol!

That was before i even knew there was different styles of JJJ :oops:

Ive managed to find loads of connections to kung fu classes in my local area, so ive been pretty emmersed in that for a while. Still want to find that JuJutsu class…>

Post: dojutsu:

Also i heard about this Bujinkan Taijutsu place that isnt EXTREMELY far from me, and i saw the sticky thread about it in the japanese MA section.

Yet i hear random whisperings about frauds (who is this Hayes guy?) linked to Ninpo in general, and ive noticed that a significant few have broken away from Bujinkan to start there own thing (Jinenkan, BBD, Genbukan, and i think thats it). So whats the story there? Bujinkan isnt some elaborate Shaolin do-esque oraganisation that fools people ’til there in the “upper-dan” area is it lol?!?!?>

Post: bamboo:

My favourite is sutemi sumi Otoshi or sacrifice corner drop

>

Post: buicken:

Baseball slide = yoko wakare ?
http://www.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/yokowakare.htm>

Post: zefff:

Nice one Buiken. Thanks for that.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=dojutsu Yet i hear random whisperings about frauds (who is this Hayes guy?) linked to Ninpo in general, and ive noticed that a significant few have broken away from Bujinkan to start there own thing (Jinenkan, BBD, Genbukan, and i think thats it). So whats the story there?[/quote 
Hayes is an American who studied through the Bujinkan organization and then started his own school. Just like every other ninjutsu school out there, Hayes claims to have an excellent pedigree of instruction. In the case of Hayes, the origin of the pedigree isn’t the controversy, it’s the extent. I don’t know off hand about the other organizations, but generally speaking they were high level Bujinkan guys who broke away for political or financial reasons (read, selfishness). I won’t comment on ‘frauds’ in the sense of McDojos because the entire list of ninjutsu organizations has been suspect at some time or another and they don’t engender themselves well to external examination.

Quote:
Bujinkan isnt some elaborate Shaolin do-esque oraganisation that fools people ’til there in the “upper-dan” area is it lol?!?!?

That depends on how you define ‘fool.’ If you imply that they string you along and full your head with mush simply to make a buck, generally no. They take themselves seriously and present themselves with dignity, they are not charlatans with black belts simply trying to rip you off. If you imply that their genuine teaching is of little value, well, you might be right. It depends on a lot of factors, not the least of which is what you want in a martial art.>

Post: dojutsu:

Quote:
If you imply that their genuine teaching is of little value, well, you might be right. It depends on a lot of factors, not the least of which is what you want in a martial art.

Well “what you want out of a martial art” to the level of it being and art that is taught for the sake of defending yourself or “fighting”, is their genuine teaching of good value?>

Post: dojutsu:

On a side note (or was the bujinkan refererence a side note and this is relevant..?i dont know, anywho, let me continue) does everyone agree there is no GREAT/ significant enough advantage to sutemi waza in regards to a “street encounter”?

Im not trying to assume anything about it but if you really do force yourself falling into your back to perform the throw, thats asking for unnecessary trouble in regards to getting stomped into the ground right?

Or does someone have an explanation as to state otherwise?>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

As far as sutemi waza goes, I would worry less about the getting stomped while I’m on the ground then I would about landing on something badly. Even in old school dojo that use thing, tatami mats over hardwood floors, there’s enough give to the material that if you perform a falling throw a little wrong, you won’t separate a shoulder. Concrete, however, is much less forgiving. Besides, if you’re in an area likely to have brawls, that concrete might also be littered by broken glass or some other unsavory landing pad. Getting stomped can happen at anytime, especially since if you’re outnumbered they’ll probably knock you down anyway. Throwing yourself onto a busted beer bottle in the parking lot just sounds dumb, though.

If you want an art with reality applications, I would tend to veer away from Bujinkan and other ninja organizations. I’m not saying that they have nothing to contribute or that they all teach garbage, don’t assume that. I am, however, saying that there are options out there that can teach you to do a good enough job to protect yourself at a much faster rate than what budo taijutsu might do. Since we’re in the Japanese section, I’ll stick with Japanese styles. Yoshinkan Aikido is allegedly popular with Japanese police and Bamboo will give you props for picking up the art; Kyokushin karate is a hard-edged style which Opa has studied and can give you details on; various lineages of jujutsu gained a reputation for spawning roughian and brutes, spurring Jigaro Kano on to formulate the gentler Judo, which works for Bushi around these parts.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=bamboo My favourite is sutemi sumi Otoshi or sacrifice corner drop

[/quote 

I never really saw this as a sacrifice throw, but now I do…thanks….thanks alot :cry: :wink:>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

stab! stab! stab! :lol:

I don’t know which throw I will use when/if somebody over-extends a punch, because I do what I do in the moment I do it. Maybe I should go for an outside sweep, maybe I should duck under for a single leg, or maybe I should come over the top of the arm with a hook. Or, maybe I jus shank dat muddafuckah.

I always have an answer because in my head, anything is possible. In the real world, what actually happens is often much less dramatic than what we discuss here. While an Osoto geri might be a nice technique to play with, while it might be awesome for those judoka who practice it all the time, I’m a striker by nature. If somebody swings on me, I’m going to try to make them prettier, not try to take them to the ground.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=dojutsu And what is it that differs taijutsu from jujitsu and such? Isnt it just a group of jujitsu (and some ninpo) ryu ha?[/quote 

Just to add to Tease’s excellent response, don’t get too tied up with the various names for Japanese martial arts. It’s much easier to think of each and every ryuha as a seperate style in its own right. Your above question is a bit like asking “What is it that differs kung fu from Chinese boxing and such?” Taijutsu and jujutsu are both very broad terms that at times overlap and other times are poles apart, depending on the ryuha using them.

On the “nine schools” thing, I’d just add that Bujinkan and Jinenkan focus entirely on those nine ryuha. Genbukan does for the most part, but is becoming more and more eclectic. Shoto Tanemura is well known in the Japanese koryu community, outside of ninpo, as he has studied something like 22 different ryuha, and all play some part in the Genbukan curriculum. To be fair though, he seems to be seperating curricula to a large degree. Genbukan schools teach the ninpo curriculum, which is essentially the nine schools, but a lot also offer Tanemura’s Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei curriculum, which is made up from his studies of koryu jujutsu schools outside the ninpo nine. To make things more confusing, a few also teach Chugoku Kenpo (Chinese boxing)and Tanemura’s Koryu Karate, which is a synthesis of Tenshin Koryu Kenpo and Kukishin Ryu.>

Post: dojutsu:

aaah im startin to see how redundant my question sounded. Cool :D

Do you know what style(s) of chinese boxing chugoku kenpo is descended from?

Also what of daito-ryu aikijujutsu? Is that a system that is taught in an effective way nowadays (in general, i know it will differ from dojo to dojo). Also, ive seen a few rather ambiguous definitions of “aiki”. Does anyone know of a more concise interpretation of aiki? Does it make a huge difference between aiki jujustu and a non-aiki ryu of jujutsu?>

Post: Hengest:

Tanemura describes his chugoku kenpo as being a combination of bagua and qin na, although what style’s qin na I’m not sure.

As for Daito Ryu, in Japan the standard of teaching is generally very high. I can’t really comment on the rest of the world but I would imagine it’s like most TMA: some schools rock, some suck. I’ve trained in it a little myself and I’d say, as a system, it can be very effective. I have a friend here who trained in it for years and swears by it.

On the aiki question, I have a few ideas of my own, but it’s probably best if I leave the answer to somebody more qualified like bamboo.>

Post: samurai6string:

That’s why I like ya TTT, it’s those flights of fancy with feet firmly in reality. :lol: I’ve drilled and practiced te-nage and osoto geri so many times over the years, I’ll probably have dreams about them when I’m in my eighties, and babble on about my friend “Ol’ So-toe Garry” to all the nurses in the retirement home.>

Post: bamboo:

In the “aiki systems” you inquired about.

Aiki techniques are only taught AFTER having a strong foundation in the normal jujutsu techniques. Learning aiki before equals really bad teaching and most likely an unqualified prat masquerading as having certification.

Jujutsu is different than aikijujutsu, but then jujutsu is a generic name to start with.

AS far as a definition of aiki- I like to say- “blending movement with your attackers’ movements to affect balance and centre”. I can show you better than I can write it though.

-bamboo>

Post: dojutsu:

So could it be said that in Taijiquan there is a certain amount of aiki techniques? Or does aiki refer only to those particular techniques found in aiki jujutsu/do?

And just for the sake of interest are there any more interpretations? Hengest hinted at it but where u just fronting lol?

“Uuum i know lots about…aiki but..um… lets wait ’til someone more qualified…umm… answers. Yeah :D

Could hengest finally not have an answer for something? :wink:
So could it be said that in Taijiquan there is a certain amount of aiki techniques? Or does aiki refer only to those particular techniques found in aiki jujutsu/do?

And just for the sake of interest are there any more interpretations? Hengest hinted at it but where u just fronting lol?

“Uuum i know lots about…aiki but..um… lets wait ’til someone more qualified…umm… answers. Yeah :D

Could hengest finally not have an answer for something? :wink:

(I wonder if i’ve inadvertently offended a fightuthority god like TTT seems to be, and im going to be cyber lynched lol..)>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

6string: I don’t have flights of fancy anymore. Or maybe it’s that I don’t have a grounding in reality anymore? It’s kind of like when somebody asked Salvidor Dali if he took drugs and Mr. Dali replied, “I don’t need drugs; I am drugs.”

Dojutsu: The term ‘aiki’ literally means “harmonious energy,” and as such refers to – as Bamboo said – blending with the opponent. So, could it be said that aiki as such is present in Chinese internal styles like Taijiquan? Perhaps. The internal styles rely in part on using the opponent to defeat the opponent, but the blending issue is slightly different and not necessarily the desired goal/unexpected outcome of traditional chinese internal art training. As for other interpretations, generally speaking another interpretation would be the wrong interpretation as aikijujutsu and aikido have a monopoly on the concept; others can only try to imitate but never replicate.

While Hengest is a fightauthority God, he is nothing like me. Offending him will not result in a longwinded lambasting of your intellectual prowess or sexual proclivities. Offending him will result in being forced to witness the Beer Gut Ninjutsu (how old is that reference, Heng?) as he flies through your bedroom window in the middle of the night.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=Tease T Tickle While Hengest is a fightauthority God, he is nothing like me. Offending him will not result in a longwinded lambasting of your intellectual prowess or sexual proclivities. Offending him will result in being forced to witness the Beer Gut Ninjutsu (how old is that reference, Heng?) as he flies through your bedroom window in the middle of the night.[/quote 

Wow, that is going back a bit. :D That reference must be a good couple of years old, because I think it came about when I’d just started ninpo, when myself and von Wankenstein came up with the idea of learning the style so that I could steal people’s lager unnoticed.

dojutsu: Yeah, ya got me. :D

Although I like to think otherwise, I don’t have an answer for everything, and, on this occassion, certainly not one better than bamboo’s.>

Post: shurite44:

[quote=bamboo My favourite is sutemi sumi Otoshi or sacrifice corner drop

[/quote 

Bamboo, I used this on a kid when I was in the second grade. LOL. My dad taught it to me, he learned it in the army. Worked like a charm.>

Post: choda_lita:

Tease T Tickle—-we practice the osoto in self defense as a block strike reap combination. so as “dude” swings you block and step inside. you give him a friendly tap…elbow, throat strike, palm heal to the face….and that sets his weight off balance and then you reap out his leg. now if you struck him to the throat or face you can bury his head as far into the pavement as neccessary…..and you can move on to his friends, if they still feel the need to get beaten down. :twisted:>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

Choda Lita, believe me when I tell you that I am well aware of the use of an O Soto Geri as a counter/defensive technique and that it may very well lead to great bodily harm when the thrown reaches concrete. Also, believe me when I tell you, I don’t care what your opinion is.>

Post: choda_lita:

sorry for my obvious insubordination. next time i will know better than to question someone who would rather stab me. {bows to sensei}>

Post: bamboo:

Bwahahahhaa!!!!>

Post: samurai6string:

:lol:>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

That was the quickest somebody got it.>

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