Trapping

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Trapping
Original Poster: Michael M.
Forum: Jeet Kune Do Jun Fan Bruce Lee Forums
Posted On: 24-12-2004, 19:37

Orginal Post: Michael M.: I’m trying to become much better at trapping (I’m not good at it). Can someone recommend a good book or some other way (besides a class) that I can learn trapping?

Post: The Great Sage:

Not really it’s a very tactile skill so you need someone live to work with.>

Post: zefff:

forget trapping and work on footwork, waist movement and actual hitting. What is the point of developing trapping if you cant combine those three first? …and if you can, well do some more!

IMHO money would be better spent on a book on one of these fundamentals. Trapping is not a fundamental it is a superfluous skill that can allow the ‘actual hitting’ to happen. But it is not the only way!>

Post: Stg:

it’s still not useless though- take steve grody for example. he uses trapping to get his hits in pretty well :)>

Post: zefff:

I bet he went to a class or two though eh? :mrgreen:>

Post: Stg:

hey,no shame in that buddy :D

btw for those who never sene him before,he’s the guy demonstrating the trapping techniques in total fa.com’s jkd video clip section>

Post: thebgbb:

The great sage is right, but I would go as far as to say that you can’t learn fighting at all without feedback.

Imagine trying to learn any other sport, like tennis or ping pong, from a book. :lol:>

Post: Gong||Jau:

After a week you’d probably think you could be the world tennis champion – “You mean all I have to do is hit the ball when it comes over the net? No problem!” :mrgreen:>

Post: Michael M.:

Heh, I figured that. For now, I won’t worry much about trapping.>

Post: Fa Jing:

Chi Sao (forgive me im new at Wing Chun) is good for trapping right?>

Post: thebgbb:

Chi sao is a drill through which trapping is practiced. Kind of like Hubud.

The problem with chi sao is that it is not sparring. It is a good drill, but it is NOT sparring. People often get the idea into their heads that it is sparring, and they are condemned to forever suck.>

Post: Fa Jing:

lol

<just looked up what “trapping” was. For some reason i couldnt picture it in my head. We did alot of that with my old sifu, but he never really said “trapping” he said “setups for strikes”>

Post: Christo:

I may be a little late to the forum Michael but maybe you could try this approach. Forget trapping for now (i believe you should also forget it forever as well but thats beside the point). Think about clinch fighting such as they have in Greco-Roman wrestling and the double neck tie as in Mauy Thai. I believe this direction to be more fruitful in learning how to really fight.

You can also just crash in with strikes or go striaght to a clinch. You don’t need to go to a class to learn but it is the very best way. I have taught myself most of what i know starting off with trapping as in Wing Chun/JKD and getting rid of all that stuff for clinch fighting training.

Take 10 mins and go to:
http://www.straightblastgym.com/page.asp?section=articles&parent=Press&session=

Read it and then compare this to what others have said, especially what the bgbb said “trapping isn’t sparring”. The bgbb is correct.

Before i go try this for an exercise, get a partner and start chi sao and see how long it takes before one or both of you is clinch wrestling of some type after the first attack.>

Post: Michael M.:

Thank you! :). Better a bit late than never. That was informative. And you were right, I have noticed that during trapping, someone usually ends up going in for a clinch.>

Post: aldarianraider:

I think that trapping is a good aspect to learn. It couldn’t hurt to know it, and although it may lead into a clinch, it’s better to know it and not need it, than to need it and not know it. However, you can’t really get it from books or videos. They may offer certain techniques, but I think that the only real way to learn would to be to practice it with a partner, and see what works for you. I can’t reccommend any books or videos by title persay, but I’m sure anything on jun fan, jkd, or wing chun would give some insight. A lot of trapping will end up as freestyle anyway though, so like I said, it’s probably better to experiment a bit on your own, and see what works for you. What might help with that would be to start off with basic blocks in a scenario, and slightly modify more and more. Also, when you say you want to become much better at trapping, are you wanting short traps to go to a direct strike, traps to confuse, long traps that will wear out the opponent, is it for sport, street, maybe a little bit of everything? I hope this makes some sort of sense to you.>

Post: Michael M.:

Thanks. It was for short traps for a strike and for the street. Seems that the ‘practice makes perfect’ rule applies.>

Post: zefff:

why cant people just be satisfied with simply punching the man in his face anymore? :roll: :mrgreen:>

Post: aldarianraider:

Well zefff, if the person knows trapping, then it helps him avoid getting hit in the face, so you might want to know it to counter trap, then punch him in the face :mrgreen:>

Post: zefff:

IMO punching the jaw first, faster and harder is the best way to stop you getting punched yourself. I know what your saying but street thugs dont know wing chun. Street thugs know intimidation and fear manipulation.

IMHO the feeling and knowledge of effective basic striking and takedowns will give you a confidence and skill which will be a far better basis for defence than intricate trapping which is actually a complication. Why trap to hit if you can just hit? Do you know what I mean?

Trapping doesnt stop u getting hit, it allows you to hit by removing his defence from your line of attack.

If your attacked forget being a target, attack them and let them worry about defending themself. Thats what I believe.

peace>

Post: aldarianraider:

I wouldn’t second guess the knowledge of a street thug, though. You never know. And even if they don’t know wing chun, they could be a seasoned boxer, or perhaps a bjj practitioner. It never hurts to know a little bit. As I said before, it’s better to know it and not need it, than to :) works for the person.>

Post: zefff:

Look! knowing how to trap does not stop you from getting hit.

(and generally speaking, trapping does not defeat grappling. At my school we are taught to use small joint manipulation (chin na) and biting against grappling, striking against chin na and grappling against striking… Yes its a Wing Chun class! 8) )

Im sorry but I believe its better to know how to smash someones skull in, in an efficient way before knowing how to stop your own skull from getting smashed in, in an efficient way.

Why? Because smashing is the best way to avoid being smashed. It doesnt matter what a thug knows if you can smash him before he can smash you.

Lets take the ‘terribleBJJ beatdown’ thread as an example. View that video first and try to see what Im getting at. If the surf-guy tried to implement trapping to remove the attackers grip before striking, the BJJ attacker would slip and shoot most likely as he did anyway. But if the surf guy just closed the gap to bite the BJJ guys nose or summat eqivalent he would not be giving any notice of his intention beside the act itself (SDA). IMO biting his nose off would put the attacker on the back foot and still achieve the release of grip on the wrist. Fair enough he might release to strike you with a hook but you should expect that. :mrgreen:

Remember the original post. Im not saying trapping is crap, Im saying good striking should be practised first as a basis for understanding how the crudest attacks work IMHO. The better you understand striking, the better you understand how to more effortlessly difuse it before moving onto more complex methods.

I know people who can trap better than me but I know I would K them TFO if it came to blows!

Why do YOU think trapping might be better to learn first before tight striking? If you had to pick one, remember my answers were in response to the original question.

respect>

Post: aldarianraider:

Well, I’m more of a passive fighter, you might say, so I prefer working on more defensive methods rather than offensive. IMO, that’s just better for me personally. The opinions I offer are just from my experiences. Indeed, getting in the blows are very crucial, but from my personal outlook, I just prefer defense, ergo, trapping IMO is better suited. To each their own. I just tried the striking method myself, and didn’t find much luck in it, so I resorted to trapping, and found I could pull off more strikes than before.>

Post: zefff:

“so I resorted to trapping, and found I could pull off more strikes than before.”

have you tried mock nose biting? :mrgreen:>

Post: aldarianraider:

Hahaha. No, I can’t say that I have. Although I have bitten other places, and gave a few headbutts :P>

Post: Kali:

Personally I use trapping all the time when sparring and in hubud, by loosening it up (i.e. from the classical wing chun way….. not to much) I have found it very easier to apply. I do agree you can’t learn trapping from a book, you need someone to train with, to develop the required attributes to be able to pull it off effectively.>

Post: zefff:

Respect, please remember I am an intermediate student. All I ever chat about is what I know so it may not be right or it may not even be what I believe next week as I am constantly addressing my thoughts.

Regarding trapping from Hubud – anyone who can play pat-a-cake can trap in Hubud. Its part of the game. In sparring it seems quite easy to avoid the Hubud mans traps by going corto or largo (changing the distance).

What Ive learnt while concentating on my WC is that real trapping goes beyond whats believed to be the ‘classical’ way of the usual pak sau and gum sau type traps done in an authoritative, bruce-like manner. They are the basics, the bread and butter. Fuk sau is the real terror! But still, I prefer to work on my striking anyday….mind you, trapping is striking. Aaargh!!! Its complicated! …No its simple!

Look, TBH trapping is all in the mind but I dont like to separate trapping from striking because to strike is the intention, so if there is an obstruction you flow or crash to strike. You ‘trap’ to strike! So the intention has not changed at all. Thats why in sparring I dont consider my traps or my parries – only the end result. Actually the way to think is that there is no obstruction. The limbs they hold up for you are gifts.

If one shows loads of skill while sparring, doing loads of impressive ‘auxiliary’ technique but doesnt manage to hit/lock/takedown (in combination preferably) to reduce the opponents morale and will to fight, then it is a job half done.

Cheers, what Im writing is what I think today so please dont take offence as I may think it is wrong tommorrow. What do you think?

peace>

Post: Stg:

[quote=zefff why cant people just be satisfied with simply punching the man in his face anymore? :roll: :mrgreen:[/quote 

because when you’re slow at punching,your hits never connect against someone who actually trys defending themselves. :wink:

actually…that’s the case with me :(

….grappling anyone? :twisted:>

Post: Ninja Kl0wn:

[quote=Stg 

because when you’re slow at punching,your hits never connect against someone who actually trys defending themselves. :wink:

actually…that’s the case with me :(

….grappling anyone? :twisted:[/quote 

…timing anyone?>

Post: zefff:

thank you Ninja Klown! I can be slower than my opponent but still hit him thanks to timing and deception. And it is the same for grappling from my limited experience. I know sensitivity makes it even harder but if my attributes are not as sharp as my opponents I can still try to control rythm and tempo with timing and deception. Thats how we try to win with intelligence! 8) …of course this has to be the best way because attributes and condition are a great advantage but if you have to face 5 men and then run 5 miles then you need to be clever as we all fatigue at some point. You could be fatigued but then find you have to fight again! Having a good understanding of how to determine and then quickly break away from or interupt your opponents rythms is a huge area of interest for me.

I also find that the closer the two bodies are, the smaller the beats and the harder it becomes to understand and then break the rythms. at medium range or infighting it becomes very hard indeed as the beats are smaller and due to the deteriated confidence of opponents at close quarters because of the heightened threat, the attacks have less direction from the intelligence you are trying to read from so they are even more seemingly randomn … but its clinch and then grappling I find is the hardest as both parties have more sensory information at hand due to the contact so the rythms are tighter and the flow is much smaller meaning your timing has to be very sharp to overcome the sensitivity as well as he knowledge and flows of your opponent.

If you are slower than your opponent, which is guaranteed to happen sooner or later, then using all your senses to your advantage is a trait that must be worked on consistently. If your sensitivity is high this can overcome other areas where your condition is weaker IMHO.

peace>

Post: Michael M.:

Well said I must say. This thread has become quite informative 8).>

Post: Irish_Blood:

For thoes living in some of the “blue states” up in the North East.. Striking to the jaw pre-emptively, or at ALL looks very bad in court, as it can land a suit against you for aggrivated assault…

It’s best to make things look like a complete mistake. At least thats in my Boston experience.>

Post: Stg:

[quote=zefff thank you Ninja Klown! I can be slower than my opponent but still hit him thanks to timing and deception. And it is the same for grappling from my limited experience. I know sensitivity makes it even harder but if my attributes are not as sharp as my opponents I can still try to control rythm and tempo with timing and deception. Thats how we try to win with intelligence! 8) …of course this has to be the best way because attributes and condition are a great advantage but if you have to face 5 men and then run 5 miles then you need to be clever as we all fatigue at some point. You could be fatigued but then find you have to fight again! Having a good understanding of how to determine and then quickly break away from or interupt your opponents rythms is a huge area of interest for me.

I also find that the closer the two bodies are, the smaller the beats and the harder it becomes to understand and then break the rythms. at medium range or infighting it becomes very hard indeed as the beats are smaller and due to the deteriated confidence of opponents at close quarters because of the heightened threat, the attacks have less direction from the intelligence you are trying to read from so they are even more seemingly randomn … but its clinch and then grappling I find is the hardest as both parties have more sensory information at hand due to the contact so the rythms are tighter and the flow is much smaller meaning your timing has to be very sharp to overcome the sensitivity as well as he knowledge and flows of your opponent.

If you are slower than your opponent, which is guaranteed to happen sooner or later, then using all your senses to your advantage is a trait that must be worked on consistently. If your sensitivity is high this can overcome other areas where your condition is weaker IMHO.

peace[/quote 

thanks little buddy,i’ll keep it in mind(thumbs up)>

Post: zefff:

no worries Stg. I believe it doesnt matter what the technique is. Wether its a jab or an armbar it should be implemented to take effect when the opponent does not expect it. How you work out the best ways to do that is the fun part of training.

Im sure Badboy and Umy must have some good info on timing and deception as this is what boxing is all about, and they have a limited arsenal which must make it even harder to pull of the unexpected.

Irish Blood – So where you live, if you feel threatened and are obstructed from going on your way – You cannot remove the threat to your safety by striking the man who threatens you? What can you do when someone is denying you your freedom and threatening to assault you? :shock:

I understand that you wrote the reply as a valid use for trapping, but to trap you still need to make contact with the attacker dont you? So why not attack immediately on the same beat as his attack and save the traps for later if needed?

peace>

Post: confusingDot:

OH, so that is why the guys with the tattoos always win. cause we get all distracted by looking at all the cool pictures, and how intimidating they look.

maybei should get some words on my knuckles so my opponent will be tryiing to read it, while i hit him, and he’ll forget to dodge.

another reason to learn trapping… it’s fun to learn.>

Post: Irish_Blood:

Quote:
Irish Blood – So where you live, if you feel threatened and are obstructed from going on your way – You cannot remove the threat to your safety by striking the man who threatens you? What can you do when someone is denying you your freedom and threatening to assault you?

Actually.. Exactly. :( I’m very pissed about it, and the laws here in MA suck. But I’ll have to deal with it until I move.
Stories all the time about a guy holding a man up at knife point, and the guy thats getting robbed will get the knife away, beat the guy senseless, break his arm and call the police. Then he’ll be sued because he used too much force on the attacker.

What they want you to do ( thank the northeastern democrats for this ) is turn, and run. And after you get somewhere safe, call the police. But you just cannot do that in every situatiuon.
So I try to train to make things look like an accident to onlookers. To people from the outside, I’ll fall into the guy or stumble at him. But he’ll fall with a broken leg and a few broken ribs.>

Post: zefff:

ConfusingDot – I am presuming that u r being satirical about my post since your post follows mine and you dont refer to any others with quotes. Do you think deception does not work? If so what does work?

As for your reason to learn trapping…I can understand what your saying but its not a valid reason. By that line of thought I could say that heroin is fun to try. Most folk dont go to MA class cos its fun. Going to a themepark is fun but its not constructive. Fun helps but its the end product that is important. Thats why you pay your money isnt it?

Irish Blood – I can see it now! I’d love to witness that. “Oops Im sorry is that your leg? Are those your ribs? I do apologise old chap!”

What do they sue for?…Lost earnings? :lol:

Sounds like the best bet is to worry about surviving first and then run away. This is why I always try to avoid fights with people who know me or even if they have any info on me at all I will try not to fight. Muggers and even burglars on the other hand get no mercy. AFAI am aware in England I can beg them to leave then when they dont I can defend myself with reasonable force. 8) Are there any threads about law implications on the forum since the big change? :lol:>

Post: confusingDot:

yeah, it was sarcastic, just for fun. deception does work. i was just writting for fun, and felt like it. the only part that did contain a little something of importance was saying about doing trapping for fun.

i would say that everyone does everything for the sake of fun (aka happiness, joy, and what not). I’m sorry, but i do martial arts for the fun i may derive out of it. and it may be for the fact that i find joy in NOT gettng beat up. or that i may find joy in winning competitions, or beating another guy senseless. it may be the flash. it may be the joy i gain in excerciese, endorphines, losing weight, and being more muscular. or maybe for the joy from trapping. many reasons, but it’s ALL for happiness.

note: people don’t always know what will bring them the best or the right happiness, and will many times give themselves pain instead of joy. sometimes also holding immediate happiness over lasting ahppiness.>

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