TKD Revisited: Old Forum Topic

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TKD Revisited: Old Forum Topic
Original Poster: setsu nin to
Forum: Korean Martial Arts
Posted On: 26-03-2004, 15:40

Orginal Post: setsu nin to: TKD Revisited

8LimbsScientist
I just wanted to discuss something I’ve noticed in my Muay Thai class. My Muay Thai instructor is also a black belt in TKD. I know that TKD sometimes gets disrespected on this board (by me a lot of the time) so I figured I’d throw something positive about TKD in the mix.

When I spar with my instructor he throws in TKD kicks that I know for a fact aren’t part of the MT curriculum. Sometimes he chambers his kick and then snaps his foot out in such a way that it avoids my defense, or sometimes he’ll throw an axe kick which is actually pretty difficult to defend against until you get used to having it thrown at you.

He even did one of those spinning jumping kicks to my head (lightly). It connected, but that was more my fault for just standing there, I still don’t think that move is the smartest thing to do in a real fight. Now, he doesn’t do these sorts of kicks often, the grand majority of the kicks he throws are the usual MT variety, but I think his knowledge of these kicks adds variety to his arsenal and makes him a better fighter.

So, in closing, TKD can be a very effective art if its trained correctly and if you do plenty of full contact sparring.

I think many people on this board think I’m pro-MMA and anti-TMA. Well, I’m actually not Pro or Anti anything. I just disagree with the way the majority of TMAs are practiced and taught.
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The BadBoy
Quality Post mokey man. well said.
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kronos
Many years back I visited a Muay Thai school and trained a little there and sparred. I was a TKD blue belt at the time. I noticed that my kicking skills were much better than many of the people’s there. Many people would ask me if I was a black belt at my style which was rather flattering because I did not think of myself as that good.
This just further endorsed the validity and effectiveness of TKD to me when I was looking to branch out into other styles.
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DeStRuCtIkOn
quote:

Originally posted by IronMonkey
When I spar with my instructor he throws in TKD kicks that I know for a fact aren’t part of the MT curriculum. Sometimes he chambers his kick and then snaps his foot out in such a way that it avoids my defense, or sometimes he’ll throw an axe kick which is actually pretty difficult to defend against until you get used to having it thrown at you.
He even did one of those spinning jumping kicks to my head (lightly). It connected, but that was more my fault for just standing there,
…So, in closing, TKD can be a very effective art if its trained correctly and if you do plenty of full contact sparring.

I’ve always loved reading on these boards when this sort of thing happens. No one sees X as effective and bashes it all to hell. Then, they get jump spinning kicked in the head and say, “Oh damn, X is effective. My bad y’all.”

It always brings a smile to my face to see that people still learn from getting kicked in the head.
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8LimbsScientist
Well Des to be fair in a street situation I wouldn’t have been up againt the ropes with my hands up. The jump spinning kick isn’t useful for 99% of real fights, but it might be useful in the ring. Then again, I still wouldn’t try it unless there was as great a skill difference as between me and my instructor. And its never safe to assume on the streets.

But anyway, I never said that TKD as a whole is ineffective, just the manner in which its taught.
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THE
Well Monkey,

If your instructor can pull off TKD kicks, it’s because he has knowledge of Muay Thai. Without that, he’s only blowing smoke. I’ve fought and sparred with TKD guys before, since many of them convert over to Muay Thai. I ALWAYS have to teach them a lesson when they throw snap kicks, especially those that come in two’s or even three’s… You know like front kick to roundhouse kick. It’s so pretty, but pointless, escpecially when I move in to clinch, sweep or knee.

The one thing TKD guys are most afraid of is in-fighting, escpecially the clinch. They CANNOT even fathom what to do in that situation. If you’re a TKD guy, you want space… They’re so afraid to get close. Close the gap and you’ve got a TKDuck.

Then, there’s the problem with defense, no power in punches or kicks and the excess padding. As I’ve said on numerous occasions. Only women use pads and they only do that once a month.
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8LimbsScientist
Well, the majority of the attacks are MT. But for instance, he’ll chamber his leg in such a way that I expect a teep, and instead his leg snaps out and hits me in some unexpected location. All this happens in a fraction of a second obviously, he doesn’t chamber and then stay there for 5 minutes or anything.

But you know what I mean. In MT you sense that someone is going to go for a certain move and you automatically move to defend agaisnt it. In this case I see his knee come up and I automatically prepare to defend against a teep, and instead I get kicked in the face.

It isn’t some perfect weapon that will always breach my defenses, but just like everything else, it takes getting used to. When he first started throwing in those high axe kicks, my automatic instinct was just to bob underneath his foot. He would then simply drop his heel into the back of my head. Now when he tries that I know to either block it or counter attack.
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george stiles
TKD is an excellent style for developing your kicking. you just need to be a practical enough person to know that these more flashy sport oriented kicks are used for gentlemanly competitions and not in the back alleys. but all the basic kicks are taught correctly(at a quality school). TKD gets a bad rap for not being a good street style it was never meant to be a treet style it took tradions of the korean martial arts and turned it into a sport style over the years i know it was not origionaly just for sport but that is what it has turned into
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DeStRuCtIkOn
quote:

Originally posted by IronMonkey
Well Des to be fair in a street situation I wouldn’t have been up againt the ropes with my hands up.

Nope, but you may be up against a wall with your hands up. Much worse than ropes, IMHO.
quote:

Originally posted by Triangle
…The one thing TKD guys are most afraid of is in-fighting, escpecially the clinch. They CANNOT even fathom what to do in that situation. If you’re a TKD guy, you want space… They’re so afraid to get close. Close the gap and you’ve got a TKDuck…

I would love to see you fight. Mainly because I’d like to see what you could do when somebody has you pinned outside of your range of comfort. Just as easily as you can close the gap, they can use your own clinch against you and push you off to get that range and momentary lapse of defense to slam a heel into your nose. It’s never really occurred to me before, but I guess I must just be a fighting god or something. If every TKD guy had no inkling of an idea what to do in close, than I would really suck in the clinch. But, I don’t. Hmmm. Am I somehow special, or do you just fight scrubs? I wouldn’t dare question the validity of your training, so I guess I must just be the greatest fighter of all time since I’m not what you say I should be.
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The BadBoy
Des is there any martial art that you aren’t a master in?
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-=KING UMY=-
Taebo
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jng44
i also like to see this because it makes you think, monkey, if your used to MT battles and ur master surprised you with a few TKD kicks, imagine what it would be like fighting a copeira guy or a shaolin guy. I think a lot of the insecurity can set in when u have no idea what kind of attacks there going to dish out. I’ve heard copeira is very good for this reason, in that when u try and find their rythm, they KO you.
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8LimbsScientist
quote:

Originally posted by DeStRuCtIkOn
quote:

Originally posted by IronMonkey
Well Des to be fair in a street situation I wouldn’t have been up againt the ropes with my hands up.

Nope, but you may be up against a wall with your hands up. Much worse than ropes, IMHO.

Well, what I was referring to was the difference between the ring mentality and the street. I wasn’t knocked against the ropes from a barrage of punches in which I was forced to stay there. I blocked a couple kicks and I was winded, so I sat there for a second with my guard up to get some air and look for an opening. In the street the action is much more frenzied and the fight would have been over a lot sooner.

Anway, its stupid to play monday morning quarterback, but if it had been in the street with no rules I would have rushed him the minute he started spinning around. I saw the spin, I just misjudged what kick was going to be thrown.
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DeStRuCtIkOn
quote:

Originally posted by BadBoy4Life
Des is there any martial art that you aren’t a master in?

Plenty. There are some arts I’ve never even heard of before joining this site. Like Vovinam Viet Vo Dao, Kujukenbo, and Silat Mubai, not to mention I never knew the depth of certain arts like Aikido with the various ryu involved.

But yes, I’m still shocked to see so many people trying to attribute various characteristics to people that study a certain art when I studied that art and don’t have those characteristics, like the whole TKD guys can’t fight in close as if guys that spend 85% of their time kicking can’t kick close range.
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8LimbsScientist
Why should Triangle take it on blind faith that Tae Kwon Do has good infighting? He has never mastered TKD, and he’s sparred with apparently several TKD stylists. With only that to go on I think its perfectly understandible that he believes TKD isn’t effective. What reason would he have to believe that TKD is effective, if his own hands on experience has proven that it is not (to him). He should just take your word for it?
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kronos
quote:

Originally posted by DeStRuCtIkOn

There are some arts I’ve never even heard of before joining this site. Like Vovinam Viet Vo Dao,

Vovinam is pretty similar to TKD. I have recently met a blackbelt at that style and from everything that I had seen of that style I could tell you that it is heavilly based on Taekwondo.
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jlambvo
You know the Japanese MA term ma’ai ? Basically refers to the potential space a weapon occupies; its optimal distance and the relationship with the foe you need to wield it effectively. As long as you understand how to maintain ma’ai, the weapon is useful. At long range, a bo has a clear advantage over a katana because of its length.

But ma’ai is not limited to length alone, but also form: a kusari-gama (a long chain weapon with a sickle at one end and a weight at the other) can be effective against a katana at both inside and outside its range, as well as within the swords optimal distance. In one famous duel however, a swordsman drew a foe wielding this weapon into a bamboo grove where it became useless (as the chain would get tied up in the trees).

This idea applies to empty-hand styles including TKD. You have to know where and how to apply the techniques. By popular vote it seems that most people don’t bother to learn these though.
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DeStRuCtIkOn
quote:

Originally posted by IronMonkey
Why should Triangle take it on blind faith that Tae Kwon Do has good infighting? He has never mastered TKD, and he’s sparred with apparently several TKD stylists. With only that to go on I think its perfectly understandible that he believes TKD isn’t effective. What reason would he have to believe that TKD is effective, if his own hands on experience has proven that it is not (to him). He should just take your word for it?

Okay, let me use your logical reasoning here to show you why this is the most ass backward thing you’ve ever posted.

Let’s say hypothetically, even though it isn’t far from the truth for some people, that I had only met a handful of black people. All of them were thieves, murderers and rapists. I have no in depth knowledge of black people, only my “hands on experience” with that handful. Should I then resolve myself to the belief that ALL black people are criminals?

Obviously not. If any of that were true, and then somebody said to me, “Hey dude, I’m black, I’ve never even jay walked what’s up now?” Would you say to that man, “It’s okay, he’s had experience that tells him otherwise?” I seriously hope not.

Whether it’s ice cream vendors, pop stars, black people, Christians or Tae Kwon Do students, THE LIMITED EXPERIENCE OF ONE MAN IS NOT ENOUGH TO JUSTIFY UNIVERSALIZED GENERALIZATION. Notice the caps, that doesn’t mean I’m yelling or something Internetese, it means it’s an important lesson that everyone should have learned by this point in their lives.
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kronos
I totally agree. All these people who denigrate TKD because it emphasises kicking need to take into consideration that there are plenty of hand techniques used in that style. I for one am able to punch through 2 pinewood boards with a reverse punch just as easilly as kick through them.

You may say “Big deal – boards dont hit back.” Well let me put it this way every technique has a window of opportunity where you can capitalise on it. For example there may be a situation where a roundhouse kick would be a perfect move, another time there may be a perfect time to execute a jab and cross.

By having confidence in your ability and having the experience to know which situations require a certian attack a fighter becomes truelly proficient. So in a fight a TKD stylist who knows when a situation requires a spinning hook kick or an ax kick could easilly blast a Muay Thai stylist with his kicks.

I am primarily a TKD stylist also with some Krav Maga thrown in and I feel comfortable fighting at kicking range, punching range and clinching range. My Krav Maga training has also taught me the fundamentals of ground fighting. I think every martial artist should make an inventory of his skills and determine which areas need improvement. So if you are a good kicker you may want to look to attend a BJJ seminar on groundfighting so you may pick up one or two techniques. Likewise if you are a grappler you may want to work on your kicking and boxing skills.
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*Gong*Sao*
quote:

Originally posted by kronos
I think every martial artist should make an inventory of his skills and determine which areas need improvement. So if you are a good kicker you may want to look to attend a BJJ seminar on groundfighting so you may pick up one or two techniques. Likewise if you are a grappler you may want to work on your kicking and boxing skills.

I think this is the first time I’ve ever really strongly agreed with anything you’ve posted. Well said.
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8LimbsScientist
Des

That analogy doesn’t apply to martial arts. We aren’t speaking about human beings, we are talking about a combat system. If you bought a Ford, and it gave you nothing but problems, then you bought a second and it was equally crappy, then a third and it was a lemon, could you be blamed for not believing that Ford puts out a quality product?

Worse yet, if you refused to put faith in the quality of Ford workmanship due to your experiences with Fords, and I came along and likened your lack of faith to racial bigotry wouldn’t it sound pretty ridiculous?

If Triangle is basing his idea of TKD off of one practicioner, or even two, then yes, its wrong for him to make those assumptions. But if he’s basing his assumptions about TKD off of personal experience with 3 or more TKD practicioners, I’d say his reasoning is justified.

I wouldn’t expect him to stubbornly continue to believe in the effectiveness of a style when he has never been given any reason to.
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MartialArtist
I know i’ve bad mouthed TKD recently but if you are like most of the people on this board and train hard TKD can be an effective art and fun but if you get your rank going to your head your going to suck and TKD wont be effective for you so if you are training in TKD and since it has such a bad name i’de suggest training your hardest practicing constantly and making sure your instructor is teaching you the correct moves
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Post: Kyorgi:

I think this had been mentioned before but…..
Many people who have or are currently studying TaeKwonDo feel it is a ver weak art……alone. Once they combine it with another art they realize how effective it can be. For instance if you were to take TKD and boxing you would realize that together you are a very competent fighter. Becuase one art focuses of kicks and the other punches….and so on and so forth.>

Post: superjim:

the thing is if you’re fighting against someone whose good enough then they wont let you get close range, when I spar against higher belts and try to charge in with some quick jabs, although it occasionally works, I usually end up with a foot to the gut, I’m sure that if someone were an expert shootfigher or something they might be able to get by but I’m definately not a slow guy and I’ve got a big reach now… plus it’s probably only gonna be people that do taekwon do that are gonna read this now that all the martial arts are all divided…. heh ah well it’s all good….>

Post: Kyorgi:

I fail to see the main point in all of what you posted, is it that all martial arts have their strengths and that TaeKwonDo’s strength lies in fighting from a distace where as shootfighting is close fighting?>

Post: superjim:

hmm good point, I’m not so sure what the point was… I think it had something to do with if you’re strong enough with your strenghts you can protect your weaknesses or something…. yeah that could work…>

Post: Kyorgi:

I think if someone was strong or smart enough to use your weaknesses agaisnt you I don’t think your strenghts would cover it. However I have never been in a real street fight and wouldn’t know from expirience.>

Post: SolidRedux:

At my WTF TKD dojang, they teach us clinch and ground techniques adapted from Judo and BJJ. The main focus is on self-defence and confidence, not sport. Maybe thats just Elite though, I’m not sure what it is like at other places.>

Post: Kyorgi:

At my WTF Dojhang we are taught Hapkido for close in fighting and boxing techniques becuase of the lack of hand strikes in TaeKwonDo.>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

I know what you guys are talking about with the distance thing. When I first got with this instructor, we were sparring (muay Thai of course) and I would try to get inside to deliver some punches and he could always keep me back. He would always manage to keep me at a distance with kicks and I couldn’t land a single hit on him.

Now its a little easier because I’ve gotten used to the kicks and I know how to exploit them to my advantage. Its still not easy, but its not impossible anymore.

In muay Thai if someone throws a straight push kick (teep) at your midsection your swing your arm down and catch the foot and swing it out wide. Once this becomes second nature, your opponent stops throwing so many teeps because you keep catching them, swinging them out wide and then delivering a punishin kick to the now exposed leg. I hope that made sense.>

Post: superjim:

Yeah, I see what you’re saying. Once you get the hang of it you can get past peoples strengths and to their weeknesses. If you’re taking taekwon do and you wanna be a serious fighter, then it would probably be a good idea to crosstrain with something that emphisises close range combat… What I was talking about was a street fight or something where you wouldn’t have time to get used to the kicks… if you’re well trained enough then the person you are fighting shouldn’t have time to figure out what you’re weak at…. probably not the best philosophy, and certainly won’t compenste for being good at everything… oh well…>

Post: UK Scrapper:

I think the main weakness of Taekwondo is it emphasises powerful strikes and rigid stances which are suited for heavy, powerful individuals whilst inanely at the same time emphasising alot of acrobatic kicking techniques which would be hard for a large powerful person.>

Post: superjim:

The problem that lots of people have with Taekwon-Do is the quickness and ‘flickyness’ of the techniques, there are powerful strikes, but they aren’t all the techniques. Most of the techniques are actually best suited for a smaller person as the General Choi Hong Hi, the founder of Taekwon-Do (ITF style at least), was quite short, somewhere in the low to mid 5′ range I believe. Obviously a large person would have an advantage with increased mass and range, but it is not necessary to be big. Also not all of the kicks are acrobatic, most are quite simple although there are jumps spinning type kicks which could be considered acrobatic, it just takes practice to get them, and I don’t think that they would be any more difficult to get unless maybe you are overweight…>

Post: Kyorgi:

Yeah, I mean there are some acrabatic kicks but I have never seen them used in sparring unless on practioner was siginicantly better than the other.>

Post: superjim:

For the record, General Choi Hong Hi was 5’1 and about 126 lbs.>

Post: setsu nin to:

Crap…….

Yeah, I mean there are some acrabatic kicks but I have never seen them used in sparring unless on practioner was siginicantly better than the other.

There is mome TKD team which preforme only acrobatic techniques Tang ot Tong team I think. Do you know for them? I saw them once. If you whant circus martial art demonsration than they are exelent, but if you whant street effective martial art demonstration than they are not for you.>

Post: superjim:

Yeah I’ve seen videos of lots of Taekwon-Do people that do only show-offish stuff like breaking a board with a backflip or like doing jumping 720 kicks… kindof lame but even if its more like gymnastics then a martial art it still looks kindof impressive… It’s not like the problem of having things that are acrobatic and only for demonstration is specific to Taekwon-Do though, look at wushu, the only time I have ever seen it is in movies or demonstration clips… oh well…>

Post: Kyorgi:

I have never heared of them before…do you have like a link or something where I could check them out….it seems kind of cool.>

Post: setsu nin to:

No, I dont have any link, but I think that these is some Tae Pong (?) team. I will check it.>

Post: observer2001:

Who said TKD isn’t effective?? :?

We have 2 hands, 2 legs.. just like Bruce Lee said.

Keep it simple! in order to ensure that u’ll win in a fight, u have to be much faster, much stronger, and more able to absorb strikes, while able to deliver powerful and speedy strikes.

If all TKDins train as hard as, and similar to professional MT fighters or Kyokushin fighters, they will be much tougher! Unfortunately.. some, or most, are not! :(

I’ve trained in Kyokushin for more than 1 year…. And when i started TKD, i found that TKD is very good at agility and dodging various attacks, while delivering very fast, unexpected kicks! Two things i regret abt TKD artists are their relatively poor ability to absorb powerful blows to their bodies, and the lack of blocks.. cuz u can’t assume that u will always be able to dodge!

There were some TKD 1st dans challenged my Kyokushin club, when i was in Kyokushin during highschool. They were very fast and agile! some of their kicks(except to the head) couldn’t be blocked by my karate instructors ‘coz they were just too damn fast, thus they didn’t have enough time to react! However… due to the Kyokushin’s excellent ability to absorb blows, those kicks were useless!
Furthermore, my instructors were having a hard time to attack those TKD artists coz it’s like chasing a speedy rabbits! it was just hard to land a perfect powerful blow to their body! But… once a blow was landed on them.. the fight was over!

In a usual fight…. or during fights in the streets, bars, etc.. If ur excellently trained… all u need is just 1 damn fast kick to the head, the SOB won’t have time to react properly, and the he’ll go down!
If u don’t like high kicks… fine.. kick his groin first, low kick to his thigh, and then axe kick his head!

If someone is a truly good TKD, karate, or kicboxing martial artist… all he needs is a few seconds to end the fight (assuming 1 opponent, relatively appropriate size).

IMO, it’s just a matter of how u train, how intense u train, and how u use ur techniques in real fight.

Plus.. i don’t think we’ll face a strong Muay Thai professional fighter posing as a thug in the street! Most thugs are just bullies… which are actually weak, have poor discipline, and relies on numbers of friends, rather than individual combat ability.
So, i don’t think TKD is ineffective against those thugs. :)>

Post: setsu nin to:

Kyorgi

I finde it its Taepong Team.

http://www.taepoong.de/>

Post: Kyorgi:

:shock: Those guys are pretty cool……why are they all born in Germany but have korean names?>

Post: setsu nin to:

I closed these thread. If you whant me to open it send me PM. If/when I recive five or more requests I will open it.>

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