Lineage and Principles of Shaolin Do

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Lineage and Principles of Shaolin Do
Original Poster: themeecer
Forum: Kung Fu Styles, Chinese Martial Arts
Posted On: 05-05-2004, 23:28

Orginal Post: themeecer: MOD’s NOTE: I’ve split this off from thread it began on as I liked the way themeecer and Scott’s discussion was going and thought it deserved its own thread. Some of you may groan at the prospect of another Shaolin Do thread. Tough. This is an issue I believe deserves to be discussed in a mature fashion and this thread has begun in such a manner. Please keep it that way kids. As soon as this descends into mud flinging territory it gets locked up just like the last one.

Cheers,
Hengest.
—————————————————————–

[quote=superjim  I study ITF style Taekwon-Do under Dan King at Hwang’s Taekwon-Do School of NH. This school is under Grand Master K. S. Hwang who was promoted to the rank of Grand Master by General Choi Hong Hi (1918-2002), the founder of ITF Taekwon-Do in 1997, his certificate number K-9-1 representes that he is the first Korean 9th degree Taekwon-Do Grand Master.

I am quite certain that everyone would like to see something similar for shaolin-do, but I know that I have never seen anything anywhere close. Obviously it would be more difficult and a fair bit longer then mine, but you cannot tell me that noone has had the sence to do this unless it is truly not possible.

I’m trying to be impartial but it is definately not easy in this case.[/quote 

Fukien Shaolin Temple
|
GM Su Kong Tai Djin 1849 – 1928 First person in our lineage to teach outside the temple
|
GM Ie Chang Ming 1880 – 1976 Moved from China to Indonesia
|
GM Sin Kwang The 1943 – ? Moved from Indonesia to the US and in the early 90s standardized the name of our system to Shaolin Do
|
Master Robert Green 1952? – ?
|
Me 1973 – Hopefully a long long time. :D

Post: EvilScott:

Hiang Kwang The == Sin Kwang The ?>

Post: themeecer:

Nope they are brothers .. I had a cool chart made out showing him as well but it removed my spacing. Master Hiang learned from a couple other teachers as well .. and I had them listed. Don’t quote me on this .. but I think that he got a lot of his bird forms from one of these colleagues of Great Grandmaster Ie.>

Post: EvilScott:

Ya, I’m doing some of my own research…

Every single picture I’ve seen reminds me much more of Karate than of Kung Fu. Your system is thoroughly Japanese.

edit: This is due to a law in Indonesia banning Chinese systems of MA. So he made it look Japanese and changed the name…looking for more info…

edit: An enormous amount of anti-Chinese sentiment in Indonesia makes this ban a very real possibility – especially during Japanese occupation which fits in this timeline. I cannot find the law itself, but Ie Chang Ming was definately discriminated for being Chinese.>

Post: themeecer:

EvilScott … let me save you some time. The stuff you are looking for has already been posted in that Shaolin Do thread. Unless you have some kind of agenda for finding this all on your own….. if so, proceed.>

Post: EvilScott:

I prefer to find things myself so I can cross check sources.

My biggest problem so far is that Shaolin was drastically changed when it was taught to Sin – it isn’t really Shaolin anymore.>

Post: themeecer:

Well that is something I can discuss with you. Granted that gets us off topic from the focus of this thread. There have been several good discussions of this on other boards. Do I think it could have changed from the time it left the Fukien temple till now? You’re darn tootin I do. I’ve been at seminars and watch people totally change something they just learned. Sheer number of forms GM Su had to remember could have resulted in some being altered. This all being passed onto and carried by one man to Indonesia could have altered some. The art being in Indonesia could have altered it some. The fact that more than one teacher taught the The brothers could have altered some.

And I totally agree that some of the online videos of our forms have been altered. I have yet to see one that executes their forms the way I do, or anywhere close. Mine tends to be a whole lot more flowing.>

Post: EvilScott:

If you follow information about Hiang Kwang The he makes no mention of Shaolin Do or altering an art to appease Indonesian authorities. His Indonesian trainers headed the Chung Yen Wu Shu Shao school, led by Ie Chang Ming. He trained under Ie Chang Ming but his style seems much more Chinese.

Both he and Sin traveled to Kentucky for education – Sin for Nuclear Physics, Hiang for Civil Engineering. Neither mentions the other sibling though.

Which is true?>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=themeecer I have yet to see one that executes their forms the way I do, or anywhere close. Mine tends to be a whole lot more flowing.[/quote 

Differentiation in exection of forms is miles away from different governing principles. You can always tell the difference between a Kung Fu fighter and a Karate fighter – they follow different rules.

Shaolin Do follows Karate rules.>

Post: themeecer:

[quote=EvilScott  Differentiation in exection of forms is miles away from different governing principles. You can always tell the difference between a Kung Fu fighter and a Karate fighter – they follow different rules.

Shaolin Do follows Karate rules.[/quote 
I strongly disagree here. My governing principles are much more kung fu than karate, especially the further into black belt I go.

Quote:
If you follow information about Hiang Kwang The he makes no mention of Shaolin Do or altering an art to appease Indonesian authorities. His Indonesian trainers headed the Chung Yen Wu Shu Shao school, led by Ie Chang Ming. He trained under Ie Chang Ming but his style seems much more Chinese.

The brothers had a falling out. Master Hiang The changed several of the trappings of the art and claimed it was a total separate art. His style can’t be ‘more Chinese’ than ours .. it is the same exact art.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=themeecer The brothers had a falling out. Master Hiang The changed several of the trappings of the art and claimed it was a total separate art. His style can’t be ‘more Chinese’ than ours .. it is the same exact art.[/quote 

I guessed this much.

The problem is, though – that he claims the school never became more Chinese to appease Indonesian authorities. He even says the school had a completely different name.

I understand you are told “well he’s just making it up”, but do you understand my position? I have just as much reason to believe him as you.

Upon closer examination the arts are very similar – the biggest giveaway is the belt requirements – Chung Yen pictures show much more Chinese stances and movements. But Chung Yen Shaolin and Shaolin Do both still much more similarities to Karate (which was taught in Indonesia during the time the The brothers were there) than to the styles taught at Fukien like Wing Chun and Hung Gar.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=themeecer I strongly disagree here. My governing principles are much more kung fu than karate, especially the further into black belt I go. [/quote 

OK, here is a question I wanted answered that Thraddu missed. Tell me your governing principles. Not “honor” and all the symbolic principles – I’m talking principles that govern physical technique.>

Post: themeecer:

I was training while the brothers were still together. In fact Master Hiang The signed my yellow belt certificate. At this time he agreed with everything his brother was saying. Later when he pulled away he altered the history a small bit. I have no ill feelings towards him. He is an awesome martial artist.>

Post: themeecer:

[quote=EvilScott  OK, here is a question I wanted answered that Thraddu missed. Tell me your governing principles. Not “honor” and all the symbolic principles – I’m talking principles that govern physical technique.[/quote 
Let me contemplate this for a while. It is late and I have things to do before bed. Unlike most of my answers that I can fire off quickly, this one I want to give more thought. Until then.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=themeecer Let me contemplate this for a while. It is late and I have things to do before bed. Unlike most of my answers that I can fire off quickly, this one I want to give more thought. Until then.[/quote 

I’m suprised – most Kung Fu practicioners learn their principles very early seeing as they govern all technique. I would of though a man of 20 years training in his art would know the principles as well as he knows his phone number. :?>

Post: themeecer:

We do not put it into words like many do. We have governing principles .. they affect how I do all my forms. I can look at others and tell when they are using my same governing principles. I just want the time to give you a well thought out answer.

Until then I will give you the Kobra Kai’s principiles. Strike first, strike hard, show no mercy.>

Post: EvilScott:

As an example of what exactly I’m looking for, here are Wing Chun’s principles…

Guard the Center
Face the Point of Contact
Economy of Movement
Touch Reflexes (Chi Sao)
Watch the Leading Elbow
Use Linear Striking Action
Avoid Fighting Force Against Force
Train to Use Two Arms at the Same Time
Uses Pressure Points to Make Striking Techniques More Effective
Uses the Same Meridian Pressure Points as Treatment of Injuries

This is the kind of thing I’m looking for. Not generic principles like “hit hard” or “the pointy end goes in the other man.”

If you do not put your principles into words, how do they govern your techniques? How do you know you are doing your forms with correct emphasis, besides a teacher’s approval?>

Post: themeecer:

Oh I know that, I know what you were asking for. My ending was a joke.

Edit: Here let me give you a quick partial list. Not even a list … just two or three things that instantly came to mind, because I was specifically using them today.

1) All blocks can be attacks and vice versa.
2) Don’t fight in a straight line, moving back and forth…. advancing and retreating from your opponent. Either ‘corner’ their attacks or even better, try to get 2 steps ahead and attack their rear.
3) Attack on their move.

Heck .. now a days I don’t even fight from a stance. I now stand straight up and like to scratch the side of my face while my other hand is tucked under that elbow, it is very similar to one of the hands in Pa Qua. I use that or I totally have my hands to my sides, limp. I am constantly moving from side to side. I block with circular attacks, I like when I can spin them a little with my block and then with a step or two I am behind them. Then explode with attacks to their back side.

You do have to realize .. we have a ton of material!! A ton. The governing principles of one that just studied our internal arts or only one of those singularly would look different from one that only studied our mantis. I have begun to favor our internal arts more than anything lately. Our meditation practices have been insane for me. So my governing principles have been changing and will continue to do so as I age and further my studies.

Did that help any?>

Post: themeecer:

[quote=EvilScott  If you do not put your principles into words, how do they govern your techniques? How do you know you are doing your forms with correct emphasis, besides a teacher’s approval?[/quote 
Adopting the ‘spirit’ of the animal you are imitating. Flowing from move to move. Generating power at the waist. Strength of my strikes coming from the floor. LOW STANCES!!! A big pet peeve of mine.>

Post: setsu nin to:

themeecer

Ok, I have one question.
Your friend and teacher (Thraddu) post how many people say that Shaolin Do is similar to Karate and TKD. Well in my opinion Shaolin Kung Fu and Karate/TKD are not so similar so that someone would replace them. Also why are there some weapons that were not used in Shaolin?

Well i have few more questions but about them later.>

Post: themeecer:

Thaddru is not my teacher, we are the same rank and have the same teacher. As to his comment of how some people would say SD is similar to karate or TKD, I will let him explain what he meant.

Which weapons are you referring to exactly? I believe you will pick sais as one. I am currently trying to find the article on Kungfumagazine.com that describes the Chinese sai. It’s form was similar to the modern version however along its length the blade was segmented like the tail of a scorpion. On a recent trip to China, a SD group visited Quanzhou Shaolin Temple and took this pic of one of their weapons racks. Notice what is on the rack:

Here is a pic of some excavated weapons found at the newly discovered southern Shaolin temple. Notice the weapon third from the left.

Is this sufficient for the sais or are you going to make me go through pages and pages in order to find the write up on Chinese Sais on kungfumagazine.com?>

Post: setsu nin to:

themeecer

Thaddru is not my teacher
Sorry well than he is jademonkeystudent teacher than.

Well you realy could finde some better photos.
In my opinion you (as someone who practice shaolin) should know chinese term for what you call Chinese Sai.
Well Gen (one of the terms used for “Chinese Sai”) was diferent than todays Sai. But its truth Sai come from China. I dont know any problem with that.

Could you tell me how long are tese stick on the photo. (two short sticks)?

Well I will finde that about weapons…

Also it was not just Thraddu who noticed it…>

Post: themeecer:

I can not tell you how long the sticks are in the photo without a reference to go by. They look to be almost the same size of the sais. They also appear to be connected at the top .. could this be a 2 section staff .. Nunchaku, if you will have it?

The Chinese version we have used in class has one stick around the same size of a contemporary nunchaku, but the other stick is shorter. It prevents the stick from racking your knuckles in one of the two man fighting sets we have.

Here is some pics of an antique set: http://www.chinesearms.com/chinesearms/chinesearms/001/other/zhangbian/zhangbian.htm>

Post: bamboo:

http://www.shaolinchowka.com/shaolin-kung-fu-forms/index.html

Here is an excellent site for chinese weapons names (not sure of the dialect though). Just move the cursor on the weapons rack and get the names you are looking for. :)

-bamboo>

Post: themeecer:

Nice site bamboo. Does anyone know where I can find one of these “horizontal top bench?” I have always called them a Chinese bench.>

Post: bamboo:

Sai- Gen

Could this be the bench you want? http://www.dragonslist.com/weapons/?id=11

-bamboo>

Post: jademonkeystudent:

**Ok, I have one question.
Your friend and teacher (Thraddu) post how many people say that Shaolin Do is similar to Karate and TKD. Well in my opinion Shaolin Kung Fu and Karate/TKD are not so similar so that someone would replace them. Also why are there some weapons that were not used in Shaolin?**

well youre right that shaolin is far different from karate or TKD, here is the context that statement was made in.

arjun: “shaolin-do looks like modern wushu.”

thaddru: “ive never heard that one before, most or our detractors say we look like karate or TKD.”

i have seen some students of shaolin-do do our stuff and it looked like karate but thats only because they dont train hard enough or didnt listen when they were told how to do it. the meecer and thaddfu can elaborate on this. shaolin-do forms are no different that traditional shaolin forms if they are done like master sin teaches them but, a few people just dont get it so it ends up looking strange.>

Post: themeecer:

That bench is similar .. but the ones I need have the ‘feet’ of the bench as 4 legs .. and not two short boards. That one may be usable though.>

Post: MasterKiller:

themeecer wants one of these,

[url http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&krd=1&from=R8&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=%22kung+fu+bench%22[/url >

Post: themeecer:

Perfect MK!!!!!!! That one is sold though. 8( Don’t think I want to use an antique one either. It will take a good beating with a broad sword and ruin its finish.>

Post: bamboo:

Could you not just buy a saw bench and shorten the legs, like the chinese did? It would be much cheaper. I’m sure once the regulars come onto the board someone can help you.

cheers,

-bamboo>

Post: themeecer:

Awesome idea. I bet I could find a cheap used one somewhere.>

Post: Thaddru:

[quote=EvilScott As an example of what exactly I’m looking for, here are Wing Chun’s principles…

Guard the Center
Face the Point of Contact
Economy of Movement
Touch Reflexes (Chi Sao)
Watch the Leading Elbow
Use Linear Striking Action
Avoid Fighting Force Against Force
Train to Use Two Arms at the Same Time
Uses Pressure Points to Make Striking Techniques More Effective
Uses the Same Meridian Pressure Points as Treatment of Injuries

This is the kind of thing I’m looking for. Not generic principles like “hit hard” or “the pointy end goes in the other man.”

If you do not put your principles into words, how do they govern your techniques? How do you know you are doing your forms with correct emphasis, besides a teacher’s approval?[/quote 

Here are some of the governing principles of what we do as best as I can list them in the same manner as you did without getting too off base.

If they push you pull, if they pull you push.
Redirect the line of attack.
Position for advantage on the weakest side of their line of attack.
8 lines of attack stragedy and counter stragedy.
Iron and Silk quality. Move like silk, stike like iron.
Springiness in the legs. Tan tui.
Every attack is a block, every block is an attack.
Kill someone three times in a single punch, 1st with Iron Hand, 2nd with vital point strikes, 3rd with internal energy.
Penetrating power/Fajing. “Strike the paper to break the brick.”
Economy of movement and power generation.
Have balance in all aspects, right side as important as left. Hard as important as soft, external as important as internal.
Power and energy is invigorated by the breath. Without the breath the power is weak.
The mind and the will direct the intention, the body follows the intention. When the mind says block/hit, body already there…
All power eminates from Tan Tien.
Vital points are used to destroy as well as heal.

These are some of the governing principles that we teach our students, and they take a long time to understand and master. Kung fu = Time and effort ;) :wink:>

Post: L_Z Wong_Fei_Hung:

Well said Sifu Thaddru, are these are principles you teach???
Hmmmmm…

These theroies, concepts and priciples. are pretty advanced……..>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=L_Z Wong_Fei_Hung These theroies, concepts and priciples. are pretty advanced……..[/quote 

Not really. I see a lot of similarities with principles of other disciplines from the Fukien Shaolin temple. Looks good to me.

Another question – how big of a deal is footwork?>

Post: themeecer:

Footwork is very important. It dictates where your power is coming from, it dictates the flow of one move to the next. Correct placement of the knee in relation to the foot is very important as well.

I feel like every word of ours is being scrutinized by a fine tooth comb. To be quite honest, for some of these principles, I do not put them in words. I do more ‘showing’ than ‘talking,’ in class. When I see a student not displaying these principles I show them the right way, versus telling them the right way.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=themeecer I feel like every word of ours is being scrutinized by a fine tooth comb.[/quote 

You have yourself to thank for that. Your initial behavior in the forums was unbecoming of a career MAist.

As I told Judge Pen in a seperate thread regarding lineage – if a MA is as young as Shaolin Do, has not been tested in battle, and has some very obvious differences from arts that influenced or combined to create it, the MA is by no means damned. It just means a smart MAist will look VERY hard at it before accepting it as truth. I personally do the same thing with many arts – some turn out to be OK and some turn out to be bunk.

I won’t know for sure until I check out one of your schools – are there any in Houston, Texas? I will be spending my summer there.

edit: I don’t doubt that they are Sais – there are many weapons common to both cultures. To play devil’s advocate, though, some of those look much more like the head of a tiger fork than a Sai. :D>

Post: themeecer:

[quote=EvilScott  edit: I don’t doubt that they are Sais – there are many weapons common to both cultures. To play devil’s advocate, though, some of those look much more like the head of a tiger fork than a Sai. :D[/quote 
I was only saying that the one was a sai, in the antique picture. Many of the others are have hollow ends for placing on the end of a staff, like the tiger fork looking one.>

Post: Judge Pen:

[quote=themeecer Footwork is very important. It dictates where your power is coming from, it dictates the flow of one move to the next. Correct placement of the knee in relation to the foot is very important as well.

I feel like every word of ours is being scrutinized by a fine tooth comb. To be quite honest, for some of these principles, I do not put them in words. I do more ‘showing’ than ‘talking,’ in class. When I see a student not displaying these principles I show them the right way, versus telling them the right way.[/quote 

Exactly meece. We don’t always have a nice coined phrase for every principle, but we stress them in class through correction.

One of the best things about SD, and one of the largest problems, is that the number of forms allows individual students to find what principles and footwork works best for them. Certian core principles are the same, but some people prefer the tiger that is taught over our crane. Some people prefer Hsing-Ie fighting while others prefer tai chi. The student starts to focus on what they find works best for their body mechanics and they develop thier own unique fighting flavor.

Of course the detraction is that some students don’t distinguish between the different types of forms and blend it all together into their own mismash. They usually don’t last too long, though.>

Post: Judge Pen:

[quote=EvilScott 

I won’t know for sure until I check out one of your schools – are there any in Houston, Texas? I will be spending my summer there.

[/quote 

There is a small school in Houston. The instructor is only a 1st degree black. I’ve never seen his stuff so I can’t vouch for its quality. Your better bet is to check out the schools directly overseen by one of the senior masters. Bill Leonard (Lexington KY), Bob Green (Sommerset KY), Garry Mullins (Johnson City TN or either of his sons in Knoxville or Morristown TN) etc.

If in Texas, the Austin school is oversaw by Joe Schaeffer an associate Master (5th degree) who is a good MA. He is injured right now though.>

Post: setsu nin to:

themeecer

I can not tell you how long the sticks are in the photo without a reference to go by. They look to be almost the same size of the sais. They also appear to be connected at the top… could this be a 2 section staff .. Nunchaku, if you will have it?
You practice these style for 10, 20 or 30 years (?) and you dont know how long is short stick? Come on, I am not attcking you now, but dont you learn that first?

jademonkeystudent

i have seen some students of shaolin-do do our stuff and it looked like karate but thats only because they dont train hard enough or didnt listen when they were told how to do it.
But how Shaolin can looks like Karate. These are two diferent things. When you see two persons one prectice Shaolin and other practice Karate. These are to so diferent arts. Its realy hard to change these two arts.>

Post: Destinova:

[quote=EvilScott Another question – how big of a deal is footwork?[/quote 

Footwork I believe is very Important,

with out footwork, yours arms arent any good, and that’s for power

As for speed, I don’t think that needs explanation :D

But footwork can also decieve your opponent, (ie boxing)>

Post: themeecer:

[quote=setsu nin to themeecer

I can not tell you how long the sticks are in the photo without a reference to go by. They look to be almost the same size of the sais. They also appear to be connected at the top… could this be a 2 section staff .. Nunchaku, if you will have it?
You practice these style for 10, 20 or 30 years (?) and you dont know how long is short stick? Come on, I am not attcking you now, but dont you learn that first?
[/quote 

No no. I didn’t take this photo. It was taken in China and I’ve never been there. You asked me how long the sticks were in the picture. I have no idea, since I wasn’t there. That could actually be a tiny little desk set for all I know.>

Post: Thaddru:

[quote=setsu nin to You practice these style for 10, 20 or 30 years (?) and you dont know how long is short stick? Come on, I am not attcking you now, but dont you learn that first?[/quote 

Well setsu, we actually learn a bo staff formally first, but then it is only very basic handling manuevers and spins. But for the first actual weapon form we learn and applications, yes it is the short stick Our short stick should be as along as to reach a few inches past the palm of our hand when it is sitting on the ground at your side. Or maybe a better way to describe it would be to make it just a few inches (2-3) longer than the length of an arm. It must fit the user so taller people have a longer stick than a shorter person.>

Post: themeecer:

Actually he didn’t ask me the size of our short stick he asked me this:

Quote:
Could you tell me how long are tese stick on the photo. (two short sticks)?

He may have thought that was taken by me or was taken inside one of our schools. And yes our short stick should come about to the person’s wrist when it is stood on end, on the ground.>

Post: Mr.Cool:

I goofed… just ignore me :P>

Post: themeecer:

[quote=Mr.Cool Found it: http://www.joybotsin.com/[/quote 
Hey Mr. Cool .. what am I looking at? Did this pertain to something said on this thread? I’m just confused at what I am supposed to be looking for, friend.>

Post: Mr.Cool:

Sorry, I had two threads open at once and missed :lol: This was supposed to go into the drunken boxing thread in one of the Chinese style forums :P>

Post: themeecer:

Gotcha .. well I enjoyed looking at that site anyway. Thanks.>

Post: EvilScott:

What are the first things a beginning Shaolin Do practicioner learns?>

Post: themeecer:

Where the bathrooms are. :D>

Post: Mr.Cool:

:lol:>

Post: jerbo8:

[quote=EvilScott What are the first things a beginning Shaolin Do practicioner learns?[/quote 

basic punch and kick, stances, conditioning, combat principals, life lessons and lets not forget PAIN. the good thing about my school under thadruu and the meecer is that if you dont put forth any effort, you wont learn anything but, if you do you stances right and workout hard, you have to do even….harder….stances and workouts… :cry:. so really it depends on the student what they learn, although every student will be taught the same, it is up to them how they apply it… correct me if im wrong, arent you considered a master of the basics at black belt?

THIS IS JADEMONKEYSTUDENT BTW….i will be probobably be posting under the name jerbo8 from now on becasue i moved and am not logged in as jademonkeystudent here. PM me if youre confused>

Post: Thaddru:

[quote=EvilScott What are the first things a beginning Shaolin Do practicioner learns?[/quote 

Kwoon protocol, basic warm up and stretching excerise, focus is on stance training, basic body dynamics of kicking, punching, blocking. Injury prevention, ie. sprains, pulled muscles, joint mechanics, soreness, etc.

Some very basic straigh flow meditation to get them to start thinking about their breath.

Short forms (similiar to tan tui), where the emphasis is on learning both sides of the body. Movement techniques for footwork, positioning, a good strong root, and power generating. We also start new students with some basic chin na techniques to introduce them to some vital point/joint manipulation, leveraging, and the importance of their own center of gravity in relation to their opponent’s.

And loads of conditioning/flexibility excercise.

They work on these basics for approx three to four months until they are ready to be evaluated and move onto the next stage of training. The most important part of all this is the control of the breath, leading to more advanced meditation later on.

Edit: cleared up the confusion of calling our short forms tan tui. :shock:>

Post: MasterKiller:

[quote=Thaddru [quote=EvilScott What are the first things a beginning Shaolin Do practicioner learns?[/quote 
Short forms (tan tui), where the emphasis is on learning both sides of the body. Movement techniques for footwork, positioning, a good strong root, and power generating. We also start new students with some basic chin na techniques to introduce them to some vital point/joint manipulation, leveraging, and the importance of their own center of gravity in relation to their opponent’s.[/quote 

Shaolin-Do short forms are not Tan Tui. :roll:>

Post: Judge Pen:

No, they are not exactly Tan Tui, MK, you are correct. We learn 30 short form all total that were picked from an original 108 set. They are similar in structure to Tan Tui and that’s where the confusion comes from. They contain the foundational technique to most of our long forms up unitl black sash.>

Post: Thaddru:

[quote=MasterKiller [quote=Thaddru [quote=EvilScott What are the first things a beginning Shaolin Do practicioner learns?[/quote 
Short forms (tan tui), where the emphasis is on learning both sides of the body. Movement techniques for footwork, positioning, a good strong root, and power generating. We also start new students with some basic chin na techniques to introduce them to some vital point/joint manipulation, leveraging, and the importance of their own center of gravity in relation to their opponent’s.[/quote 

Shaolin-Do short forms are not Tan Tui. :roll:[/quote 

No they are not tan tui, but they do train the same principle of springy leg, and the foundations of movement and stances. Judge Pen said it best. Sorry for the miscommunication, didn’t really have a better term for our short forms that would easily be relateable to others reading the post.>

Post: themeecer:

To add to what these guys said. To use the phrase Tan Tui is the best way to convey, to this audience, what our basic short forms are for, what they resemble, and how they are executed.>

Post: Judge Pen:

:D That’s the nice thing about being in an art that is so scrutinized. It always forces us to be very clear whenever we post something.

Serioulsy, it’s helped me be able to communicate about shaolin do more clearly than before.>

Post: MasterKiller:

It’s also misleading. Every one knows what short forms are, for the most part. If they don’t, at least they can wrap that idea around their head pretty easily.

Tan Tui is specific thing and shouldn’t be intentionally confused with something it isn’t for the sake of argument, especially when the argument itself is that X style uses trappings of Chinese systems to disguise it’s Japanese flavor. Just sort of adds fuel to the flame, fwiw.>

Post: MasterKiller:

How the heck did themeecer get a yellow belt already? :evil:>

Post: themeecer:

Ah ha … fear my skills you lowly little tenth degree white belt.

(Posts like that is how I got my yellowbelt already)>

Post: Judge Pen:

Well, MK, our short forms have a similar flavor to Tan Tui, so its the closest approximation to what most people are familiar with. I don’t think it being misleading to compare them. There’s a wah lum school in Knoxville, and I’ve seen them do their Tan Tui, and it’s very similar. Different enough to not be the same thing, but close enough to compare the two.

Ralphie on KFO, was has a black belt in SDo and quit to train in a family style, said that our short form were closer to 108 Lo Han fist. I’d never heard that before, but he said the structure of our short form was more similar to that then tan tui and we are taught that there were originally 108 of them.>

Post: Judge Pen:

[quote=MasterKiller How the heck did themeecer get a yellow belt already? :evil:[/quote 

Grasshopper, apparently you must have 50 posts for yellow belt.>

Post: MasterKiller:

I dunno what 108 Lohan is. Other CMA styles have short forms, so really, it’s not worth all the confusion using Tan Tui lines as an approximation. IMO, at least.>

Post: MasterKiller:

50, huh?>

Post: MasterKiller:

That’s a lot.>

Post: MasterKiller:

I better get busy.>

Post: Judge Pen:

ok. :D>

Post: Judge Pen:

You do that.>

Post: EvilScott:

Out of a 2 hour class, how much time is spent learning forms?

I realize this will vary from school to school, but given that there are so many forms to learn, I’d imagine on average it is a good chunk?>

Post: themeecer:

It depends on the night. On Tuesday nights we warm up for a half an hour then teach/review forms for an hour and a half or longer. We normally ask them to go through every form they know before they leave, after reviewing these .. which is great conditioning we then teach new stuff. We tack on sparring after all of that. Thursdays night I teach an advanced meditation class for about an hour and then Thaddru traditionally conditions them for about an hour and a half.

But this can vary due to the weather.>

Post: jerbo8:

that is a VERY big generalization mind you, sparring practice can entail all sorts of things like, learning how to take punches, distance training, where to strike, ect. same thing with forms practice, sometimes we will work on adding meditational breathing to forms aswell. there are some things that are left up to you to train at home, like iron hand training. also, we are supposed to meditate twice daily and 30min each session. themeecer gave you te basic idea though.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

Just an observation. I think FA.com prompted a page on the Shaolin do website. It’s under uniforms. I dont know if any of you noticed this or posted this allready, but I would encourage you all to read it. http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/uniforms.shtml>

Post: Judge Pen:

The “uniform” link was actually prompted by a debate among some of the Masters on wearing a gi v. a frog button uniform.

As far as how much time is spent learning forms it is usually like this at my school: A typical 3 hour class, which is what we have 2 nights a week, is about 1/3 conditioning, stance training, Ie ching chin, and drills work. Another hour is review while walking through your forms that you have already learned (sometimes a set of forms, and more excercises etc.) The last hour is split in learning new material and sparring. Sometimes we just spar, sometimes we just work on our new material, but most of the time it’s split up somehow.>

Post: MasterKiller:

I doubt FA.com was the reasoning behind that change. Don’t get ahead of yourselves, boys…. :roll:>

Post: Mr.Cool:

Quote:
Just an observation. I think FA.com prompted a page on the Shaolin do website. It’s under uniforms. I dont know if any of you noticed this or posted this allready, but I would encourage you all to read it. http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/uniforms.shtml

I’m pretty sure it’s been up before(the uniform explanation), at least I remember reading about it a looooooooong time ago when I first heard of Shaolin-Do. The uniform thing has also been made fun quite a few times on boards much more popular than this one over the years :P>

Post: Judge Pen:

Yes, but the specific link is new and a reaction to my school changing to a frog-button type uniform.>

Post: wuming:

I have a question…

Why does shaolin-do have 900 forms?
Isn’t that a little overkill?

Isn’t it better to master one technique than to practice a million techniques haphazardly? I can’t remember the actual saying, but it is a rather popular one that sounds kind of like this one; but I think you get the idea I am going for anyways.>

Post: themeecer:

[quote=wuming I have a question…

Why does shaolin-do have 900 forms?
Isn’t that a little overkill?

Isn’t it better to master one technique than to practice a million techniques haphazardly? I can’t remember the actual saying, but it is a rather popular one that sounds kind of like this one; but I think you get the idea I am going for anyways.[/quote 

It is better to master one technique. We don’t master 900 forms. We don’t even learn that many. We do learn a lot though. And from that palette we choose what we want to specialize in.>

Post: Kyorgi:

if you dont learn them then why do you have them?>

Post: themeecer:

We don’t have them … Grandmaster Sin has them. Many of them are not taught out yet.>

Post: Kyorgi:

So this Grandmaster Sin guy…..has memorized 900 forms……how many movements are in an average form?>

Post: themeecer:

Some can have 2 moves .. some could be very very long. I don’t think he has them all in current active memory. I could be wrong though, his degree was in Nuclear Physics, he may be able to remember all that. He has numerous small books where he took notes of these things as he was learning. Several of the papers I have from him of our forms have the names written out (of the moves) in Chinese and then in English.>

Post: wuming:

[quote=themeecer We don’t have them … Grandmaster Sin has them. Many of them are not taught out yet.[/quote 

But, it says in your website that Shaolin Do has 900 forms.

[quote=themeecer It is better to master one technique. We don’t master 900 forms. We don’t even learn that many. We do learn a lot though. And from that palette we choose what we want to specialize in.[/quote 

I’m sure you don’t master 900 forms, that’s the point I am trying to make. What I am trying to say is that it sounds like you guys spend a lot of time learning numerous forms (even though it is not necesserally 900) haphazardly. Why not just focus on a few forms and perfect them instead of learning the general idea of many forms?[/quote >

Post: wuming:

I also have some more questions refering to the rank advancement.

1) I noticed that to achieve a second degree black belt, the student must be proficient in Pa Kua and Yang Tai Chi…

I practice orthodox wudang Chi’ang Shan Pa Kua Chang, and I don’t understand how someone can be held responsible to master Pa Kua on the side of Shaolin Do practice. Pa Kua is extremely complex and takes years of strong dedication to become very provicient in. This just seems kind of odd to me. And, your site apparently has at least 24 people that have made at least to the 5th black belt rank. So you mean to tell me that all of the people that are atleast 2nd degree black belt and up masters of Pa Kua? I find that highly unlikely… I am wondering if you can clear this up for me. I appreciate your patience with our skepticism about your art.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

My sentiments exactly. As always, well put, Wuming.>

Post: wuming:

[quote=themeecer Some can have 2 moves .. some could be very very long. I don’t think he has them all in current active memory. I could be wrong though, his degree was in Nuclear Physics, he may be able to remember all that. He has numerous small books where he took notes of these things as he was learning. Several of the papers I have from him of our forms have the names written out (of the moves) in Chinese and then in English.[/quote 

Oh, and if he doesn’t have them in recent memory, then he doesn’t know the form. If you are a grandmaster, all of the forms should be in muscle-memory. You should have them internalized in your body. You should not need to think about them at all. This goes for any technique. If you properly, fully learned the technique it should be internalized. Otherwise, you have not mastered it.>

Post: themeecer:

[quote=wuming  Oh, and if he doesn’t have them in recent memory, then he doesn’t know the form. If you are a grandmaster, all of the forms should be in muscle-memory. You should have them internalized in your body. You should not need to think about them at all. This goes for any technique. If you properly, fully learned the technique it should be internalized. Otherwise, you have not mastered it.[/quote 
This is the case in your school .. doesn’t mean it is nor does it have to be the case in other schools. GM Sin is a master of the Golden Snake. He knows the other forms and although those were not his main focus he can do those better than most in our system. His brother, Hiang is a master of the chain whip and bird system. I would assume that he would do these better than GM Sin because this is his focus.

Assuming the head of a system to have ‘complete’ mastery over every form contained in their curriculum can be a little faulty. There are many other CMA that have a plethera of forms and I doubt their grandmasters have complete mastery over every one of them. You are right in what you stated earlier … that would be impossible to do.

Quote:
So you mean to tell me that all of the people that are atleast 2nd degree black belt and up masters of Pa Kua? I find that highly unlikely… I am wondering if you can clear this up for me.

No I don’t mean to tell you that at all. They know the Pa Kua form and know and follow the 64 rules and know applications from the form. They can mix sections of the form on command. But we have never said they are masters of the Pa Qua system. Some may decide to ‘major’ in this system and after a lifetime of training will do so.

I’m sorry if I or any of us gave you the impression that we are a complete master over everything we know. I’m not even a master over the first tiny short form we teach(2 moves), yet. I can still come up with new insights I missed from it after 20 years.>

Post: monkeypalm:

Quote:
No I don’t mean to tell you that at all. They know the Pa Kua form and know and follow the 64 rules and know applications from the form. They can mix sections of the form on command.

sorry to chime in late in the discussion only to say something negative, but copying a form and memorising some rules does in no way represent any kind of ability in a martial art. including an entire martial art, and one as complex and involving as bagua and tai chi, as a side-project to another martial art seems completely incredible to me.>

Post: themeecer:

[quote=monkeypalm  sorry to chime in late in the discussion only to say something negative, but copying a form and memorising some rules does in no way represent any kind of ability in a martial art. including an entire martial art, and one as complex and involving as bagua and tai chi, as a side-project to another martial art seems completely incredible to me.[/quote 
You must not be familiar with these 64 rules. In order to sufficiently follow these rules a person must represent ability in this martial art. It is impossible to follow all 64 to the tee and not be correctly demonstrating the correct flow, rhythm, fa-jing, etc.

Small little note to what I wrote previously. I don’t know if he has it all in memory or not. He may actually have. Not trying to start elaborate theories here. I do know he has extensive notes to back up his knowledge. I don’t know how much he has to rely on them.>

Post: jerbo8:

its not that hard to memorize a form. you MEMORIZE the forms and traning techniqes required to test. you can MASTER whatever you choose after you reach black belt. the reason we meomorze the forms and training practces for each style even if we dont specialize in that style, is so that future students can master that style if they choose. also 900 forms dosent mean 900 katas, it means 900 postures. tai chi has 64 postures. so if i mastered tai chi (which would take a lifetime), i woud be a master of 64 forms…see what im saying? when GM sin taught a monkey kata a while back he said QUOTE ”this kata has 18 forms”, so when GM sin says ‘i have 900 forms’, he dosent mean he has 900 katas.>

Post: bamboo:

Based on the “900” form questions and answers given, is it safe to say then that shaolin do is not actually a style unto itself but rather several martial arts taught at once? What I am understanding here is that you learn a great many forms then pick and choose what to specialize in; ie- tai chi, baguazhang etc…

-bamboo>

Post: jerbo8:

exactly. shaolin-do is more like an academy for many styles of shaolin. my teacher happens to be a master of monkey kung fu. themeecer is very good at tiger and thaddru is proficent at shaolin spear………im good at short form :lol:>

Post: bamboo:

Jerbo:

Its all very confusing to someone that is on the outside of your organization. What art are you practicing before shodan?

-bamboo>

Post: jerbo8:

thats very understandable, it confuses me at times. :) white to brown belt you just learn the basic block, punch, stances, conditioning, basic standing grappling techniqes (chi na) and some short forms. brown to black you learn the basics of crane, shaolin bird and some basic weapons ie; sai and broadsword. if you want me to go into detail just ask. scroll all the way to the top of the page and you will see one of the postures in our short form (the kung fu guy). here are the katas you learn from white belt to black;

White Belt to Yellow Belt

— Self Defense 1-24 (chi na)
— Short Kata 1-10
— Sparring Techniques 1-10

Yellow Belt to Blue Belt

— Short Kata 11-15
Ippon Kumite One Step Sparring 1-9
— Sparring Techniques 1-10
— Bo Techniques (4 spins)
Se Mong Tau Lie; Four Door Way Break
Fei Foo Tzu Tung; Flying Tiger Came Out of the Cave

Blue Belt to Green Belt

— Short Kata 16-22
— Sparring Techniques 11-15
— Hand to Hand Techniques (more chi na)
— Numchaku Techniques 1-12
Tai Pang Sin Kune; Big Bird Spreads its Wings (pheonix bird)
Se Pa Pang; 4-8 Bo

Green Belt to Third Brown Belt

— Short Kata 23-30
— Sparring Techniques 16-20
Lo Han Chien; Fist of the Lo Han
Pei Huang Chi Kai Pang; Short Stick of the Northern Beggar

Third Brown Belt to Second Brown Belt

Bai Hur Chon Su; White Crane Circles the Wings
Bai Hur Chuan Sip; White Crane Flips the Wings
Bai Hur Chua Chou; White Crane Flips the Legs
San Njie; (3 Units) Iron Man
Je Chan Pa Fang Dao; 8 Directional Night Battle on the Rooftop Knife

Second Brown Belt to First Brown Belt

Tia Cha; Sai
Se Pa Kuen; 4-8 Staff
Lo Tien; Descent from Heaven (shaolin bird)
Chan Ie; Spread the Feathers (shaolin bird)
Yen Hur; Performing Dove (shaolin bird)

First Brown Belt to First Black Belt

Ching Kang Foo Hoo Chien; Golden Metal Man Tiger Trap Fist
Lien U Chang; Five Directional Palm
Chie Chien; Interconnecting Fist
Hai Loong Chang; Sea Dragon Cane
Kwang Kung Tao; General Kwang1/4s Knife

if you have any more questions feel free to ask. :wink:>

Post: Judge Pen:

[quote=bamboo Based on the “900” form questions and answers given, is it safe to say then that shaolin do is not actually a style unto itself but rather several martial arts taught at once? What I am understanding here is that you learn a great many forms then pick and choose what to specialize in; ie- tai chi, baguazhang etc…

-bamboo[/quote 

Well how many CMA schools teach their external forms and also teach qi gong, tai chi, Pa Kua, or even Xing-yi? It seems to be a common practice among CMA schools to teach styles together that indvidually can comproise thoe whole of one’s focus.>

Post: Kyorgi:

If your good at short form wouldnt it be more effective to learn from someone that is a master at short form…..if that doesnt make sense bear with me becuase i know nothing about kung fu or shaolin do.>

Post: Judge Pen:

Sure it would be more effective to learn from a master at anything. Our short form is the backbone of our art and all upper level students must be proficient inthis above anything else. The short form introduces much of our basic strikes, kicks, throws and locks ans well as basic footwork and stance work. Basically it trains our bodies in the basice mechanics to make us more proficient at our long forms. Later the long forms introduces more advanced movements and footwork; however, the basics taught in short form are always present to some degree or another.

Since its the first thing we learn, most upper level teachers and master are extrememly proficient in short form. Master Mullins in Tennessee focus is specifically on short form and Hua.>

Post: wuming:

[quote=monkeypalm sorry to chime in late in the discussion only to say something negative, but copying a form and memorising some rules does in no way represent any kind of ability in a martial art. including an entire martial art, and one as complex and involving as bagua and tai chi, as a side-project to another martial art seems completely incredible to me.[/quote 

Thank you, that is what I was trying to say.>

Post: jerbo8:

you dont learn it as a side project. you must first learn the basics (white belt thru blackbelt) THEN you can devote 100% of your training to tai chi if you wish but you still must memorise the katas and traning that goes with other styles (which isnt a big deal) if you wish to advance in rank. from what ive heard this is the way it was done in the original shaolin temples, if you wanted to learn black tiger you went to the monk who dedicated his traning to that style, but he would still know the basics in the rest of shaolin.>

Post: wuming:

[quote=jerbo8 its not that hard to memorize a form. you MEMORIZE the forms and traning techniqes required to test. you can MASTER whatever you choose after you reach black belt. the reason we meomorze the forms and training practces for each style even if we dont specialize in that style, is so that future students can master that style if they choose. also 900 forms dosent mean 900 katas, it means 900 postures. tai chi has 64 postures. so if i mastered tai chi (which would take a lifetime), i woud be a master of 64 forms…see what im saying? when GM sin taught a monkey kata a while back he said QUOTE ”this kata has 18 forms”, so when GM sin says ‘i have 900 forms’, he dosent mean he has 900 katas.[/quote 

You just proved my point exactly.

Of course it is easy to memorize a form. But, it is different then having a proficient mastery of the form, and having it committed to muscle memory. Forms practice entail much more detailed work than just mimicking the outward external movement. For example, when I am taught a form, I learn the external movements piece by piece. Then once I learn all the external movment, I practice the form with a different emphasis (I will practice the form fast, slow and soft, medium speed with power, with a broken rhythm, and with a completely smooth rhythm). After that, my teacher will re-teach me the form so I understand in detail which parts are meant to be fast and hard, slow and soft, disjointed, and flowing. Then, I should learn the form on the opposite side of my body, and maybe even in reverse order. Also, we then learn the internal aspects of the form since pa kua is an internal art. I read in an earlier post that you claimed shaolin-do to be internal, so this would also be true for shaolin-do. And, if Shaolin-do is internal you should understand the intricate detail that goes into learning an internal art. There is not room for generalizations when it comes to internal training. Proper internal training takes time, A LOT of time, there is no way that it can be just glossed over really quick as it sounds in according to your training regimine.

So my question is, what good does it do to you the shaolin-do practicioner to only memorize the external visual appearance of multiple forms? I see what you mean by saying that Shaolin-do has 900 forms. If you mean postures or segments, then why didn’t you say so? I think one of the largest problems that we have here about Shaolin-do is the authoring of the webpage: it sounds very “mystical” and esoteric. It sounds as if your page is trying to inspire awe in every one who visits it. Instead of trying to mystify your audience, just tell them the straight forward dirty truth.

For example this quote on your webpage:

“If your primary interest is tournament skills, I advise you to seek your training elsewhere! Most of what you will learn here is too lethal for tournament use. I teach the ancient system of Shaolin Do, ‘Art of survival, not of sport.’
As did the immortals, we should learn to destroy so that we may preserve! It is a way of truth. The knowledge that I offer you is not an athletic training; it is a sacred trust.”

Sounds a little too mystical and hokey. Why don’t you just reword it so it sounds more realistic and credible. Try something like:

“If you are looking to become a top tournament fighter, Shaolin-do is not for you. Shaolin-do is a traditional martial art that was devised for real life combat, so accordingly, most of the techniques would be illegal for tournament use.”

Do you see the difference? There are many more examples of this writing on the webpage that sounds very hokey and esoteric that I could show you if you like.[/b >

Post: themeecer:

Quote:
you still must memorise the katas and traning that goes with other styles (which isnt a big deal) if you wish to advance in rank.

I think I know what you are trying to say here Jeremy … but they are going to pick this statement apart. I don’t think you meant to say that learning the katas and techniques of style to be childs play. Only that you get more adept in learning forms as you go along and pulling out techniques faster.>

Post: jerbo8:

i dont like the webpage, i dont think any SD student does. its just a part of life.

**Of course it is easy to memorize a form. But, it is different then having a proficient mastery of the form, and having it committed to muscle memory. Forms practice entail much more detailed work than just mimicking the outward external movement. **

once and for all I AGREE WITH YOU. nobody is claimng to be proficent in ANYTHING unless they have devoted their traning to it. you memorize the form so you can teach it to others that are interested in that style, THEN the student learns from the form he was taught. but ofcourse it would be better to learn snake from someone who mastered snake….but what if im not good at snake and want to learn hua? then i can learn it and master it on my own with effort and study of my forms and training……….your teacher gives you the tools to be a master but YOU are the one who has to use them.

**So my question is, what good does it do to you the shaolin-do practicioner to only memorize the external visual appearance of multiple forms?**

not a frickin thing…this is why we pick out of the curriculum what we want to study and leave the rest alone, besides to learn the form so we can teach it ot others.

**Sounds a little too mystical and hokey. Why don’t you just reword it so it sounds more realistic and credible. **

thats probably just the way GM sin talks, hes from idonesia..???? your guess is as good as mine.>

Post: themeecer:

Wuming, Jeremy doesn’t have any internal styles yet and I agree with you 100%, it takes more than learning the form or kata. Muscle memory is something I rely on greatly for my katas. In fact, it is difficult for me to teach a kata I have never taught for the first time. My body doesn’t like stopping in mid movement to explain and I have to back up and allow my muscles to remember the kata. I don’t go through the kata in my head and think .. oh yeah I punch next. My head has forgotten the kata … my muscles are what remember it.

Why does our website sound so mystical? That is the is way Grandmaster Sin talks. Also it is good marketing.

Wurming, what type of meditation and breathing practices does your school teach? This, I feel, is the jewel of our system. Do you do the micro or macrocsomic, otherwise known as the small and grand circles of Heaven? 8 passages to immortality? Hua To’s animals? (There are external as well as internal exercises) Hou Tien Chi or Shien Tien Chi? These are my most favorite.>

Post: jerbo8:

[quote=themeecer 
Quote:
you still must memorise the katas and traning that goes with other styles (which isnt a big deal) if you wish to advance in rank.

I think I know what you are trying to say here Jeremy … but they are going to pick this statement apart. I don’t think you meant to say that learning the katas and techniques of style to be childs play. Only that you get more adept in learning forms as you go along and pulling out techniques faster.[/quote 

exactly, thanx sensei. i didnt know how else to word it. let em pick it apart, they ask and we give them answers. what they do with them is up to …uh them. :D>

Post: wuming:

Thanks SD guys, I appreciate your patience, and thus now have a better understanding and respect for shaolin-do.

As for what I have learned so far with breathing and chi kung: I know cleansing and filling breaths, a third breath that sinks the breath to your dan tien, a “basic” chi kung exercies, lion and giraffe (yes we have eight animals), fan chang (straight, circle, and tien), “pushing chi wave palm with yin yang body” (I don’t know if there is some term for it. Our teacher doesn’t really care much for fancy names, sometimes he will just say what it is we are doing if anything at all), “dragon back”, “single palm w/ dragon back and yin yang body”, tuan fan chang, and applying all of the above to cricle walking.

This is only the chi kung (or internal) exerices that I have learned so far. Right now I am only in gua 7 (in reverse order from no rank to 8 through 1). Almost any exercise in Pa Kua can be done internally or externally. There are plenty more chi kung and internal exercise, but I don’t know them since I haven’t learned them; there is no need for me to worry about something I haven’t learned yet.>

Post: jerbo8:

your welcome. i apreciate your YOUR pateince and general ‘non-asshole’ attitude about this whole thing. good luck in your training. :wink:

NOTE: not every SD school will be like we have described, this is just the way it is at my dojo. as with all styles there will be BS schools.>

Post: Judge Pen:

[quote=jerbo8 your welcome. i apreciate your YOUR pateince and general ‘non-asshole’ attitude about this whole thing. good luck in your training. :wink:

NOTE: not every SD school will be like we have described, this is just the way it is at my dojo. as with all styles there will be BS schools.[/quote 

Agreed. Like anything you need to find a good teacher out there. Unfortunatley a lot of freshly minted black belts would like to teach which can lead to a watering down of the system sometimes. Why would I want to teach when you can learn from my teachers?>

Post: Thaddru:

[quote=wuming Of course it is easy to memorize a form. But, it is different then having a proficient mastery of the form, and having it committed to muscle memory. Forms practice entail much more detailed work than just mimicking the outward external movement. For example, when I am taught a form, I learn the external movements piece by piece. Then once I learn all the external movment, I practice the form with a different emphasis (I will practice the form fast, slow and soft, medium speed with power, with a broken rhythm, and with a completely smooth rhythm). After that, my teacher will re-teach me the form so I understand in detail which parts are meant to be fast and hard, slow and soft, disjointed, and flowing. Then, I should learn the form on the opposite side of my body, and maybe even in reverse order. Also, we then learn the internal aspects of the form since pa kua is an internal art. I read in an earlier post that you claimed shaolin-do to be internal, so this would also be true for shaolin-do. And, if Shaolin-do is internal you should understand the intricate detail that goes into learning an internal art. There is not room for generalizations when it comes to internal training. Proper internal training takes time, A LOT of time, there is no way that it can be just glossed over really quick as it sounds in according to your training regimine.[/b [/quote 

This is an excellent point, and one that we coincide with very closely. We learn our Pa kua on both sides of the body, we also learn the different rythyms, etc. Your very correct in describing our generalizations concerning alot of our material. To be more specific concerning our pa kua, I’ll describe a little of our training starting from the beginning. Before we learn any internal form, we first learn the basic concept of chi kung, meditation, and breathing. Then we learn the basic physical movements of the form on both sides and in different sections. After we get a handle on the physical form (commited to muscle memory) we then start with the proper breath control of each movement to begin training our mind in regard to intent within the movement. Then we take both of those aspects and begin learning 64 rules for our pa kua, these describe to us the proper rythym of the excercise, the correct mind and body postures necessary for correct developement and implementation of our chi, and the essences that we’re trying to realize and improve upon. While we’re gathering these rules into our minds and muscles we then break the form down into mixed sections, then half sections, then quarter sections, and finally each individual movement transitioned into each other individual movement as we walk our circle. There is much more to this training than what I’m describing but you get the idea. Also this process takes years if not decades to master.

I have been practicing pa kua for about 10 years now and I’m still realizing things as I continue to practice. For our belt requirement, we have to be able to at least show that we have the right idea concerning pa kua, know the physical form, and demonstrate the scholarly ability to research it and continue to practice. One reason for introducing Pa kua at our first black level is because you cannot replace the time factor for internal arts, the sooner you learn the better off you are over the course of your lifetime. Pa kua is a very advanced and dedicated internal art, and we do offer an internal curriculum for those students who are uninterested in learning a tiger form for example.>

Post: themeecer:

Quote:
One reason for introducing Pa kua at our first black level is because you cannot replace the time factor for internal arts, the sooner you learn the better off you are over the course of your lifetime.

Perfect point.>

Post: Kyorgi:

I am still confused about this…this Grandmaster Sin knows or at least has records of all 900 forms, how old is he? if he is like…….old in the sense he might not have long to live…..wouldn’t it be wise for him to teach these forms to an apprentice. When were all these forms developed?>

Post: wuming:

Thaddru,

Just out of curiosity, what lineage of Pa Kua do you practice?>

Post: Thaddru:

[quote=wuming Thaddru,

Just out of curiosity, what lineage of Pa Kua do you practice?[/quote 

This is a great question, and one that sadly I cannot confidently recite, what we have been taught about our pa kua lineage is that the first form of pa kua we learn is what been called the ‘classical’ pa kua, the name of it is simple Pa Kua Ch’ang. I know I know, this is something very basic that real Pa kua practitioners should know, but I will do what I can to trace our particular lineage down. I have a bunch of notes on our classical pa kua, I’ll dig through them and see if I can locate some historical references.

I know that the internal stuff was taught to master sin by some colleagues of his teacher in Indonesia, but I do not know their name. All I can say for now is that the name I have heard most often in reference to Pa Kua is Tung Hai Chuan (spelling?) This is an instance of ‘I don’t know for sure, but I’ll see if I can find out.’ :)

Your patience and understanding is appreciated.>

Post: Mr.Cool:

Dong Hai Chuan was dead long before Sin The was born. Most Bagua lineages run back to him at some point.>

Post: wuming:

Thaddru,

I’ll see if I might shoot of some ideas that might help you figure out which Pa Kua you might practice.

First of all, Tung Hai Chuan is the first man credited for bringing Pa Kua into the public in the early 1800’s. Tung had — I think — three disciples that he taught specially according to their body characteristics and their strengths. The three disciples of Tung are Cheng Tinghua, Yin Fu, and Liang Zhenpu. The style that I practice has a little different history.

My lineage goes back to Liu Shui T’ien. His history is a little cloudy because he did not bother much with telling his disciple about history, all he worried about was proficiency in Pa Kua. Anyways, Liu had two teachers. The first teacher taught a form that did not directly come from the Tung Hai Chuan system; and Liu believed this system to be more complete because it incorporated angular footwork along with the circular footwork that Tung’s system left out. Liu’s second teacher’s lineage is quite a mystery b/c he tragically died before he divulged any good information. All that is known is that his teacher was a relative of a Yin Fu disciple. Go to this site for the full story: http://www.pa-kua.com/fyi11/fyib11.htm. None the less, Lu, is included in the lineage of Tung Hai Chuan’s steele.

So my main question is, do you guys incorporate angular footwork (exercises we call Ba Feng Ken Pu) w/ your Pa Kua, b/c if you do it might be Lu’s style?

Also, do you hold your palms up or out?>

Post: themeecer:

[quote=jerbo8 i dont like the webpage, i dont think any SD student does. its just a part of life.[/quote 

I love the webpage.>

Post: themeecer:

[quote=jerbo8  also 900 forms dosent mean 900 katas, it means 900 postures. tai chi has 64 postures. so if i mastered tai chi (which would take a lifetime), i woud be a master of 64 forms…see what im saying? when GM sin taught a monkey kata a while back he said QUOTE ”this kata has 18 forms”, so when GM sin says ‘i have 900 forms’, he dosent mean he has 900 katas.[/quote 
Jeremy, I know you are making assumptions on speculation here. You are doing a great job discussing on these boards. But be careful with some of your assumptions. 900 forms does not mean 900 postures. If that was the case then I would already have the 900 ‘forms’ of our system. 900 katas mean what it says. Some of them can be our short katas, yes. Some of them can be as long as Tai Chi 64. But the claim is 900 katas. Whether others believe this is another issue. And it is one that I care nothing about.>

Post: bamboo:

Is there any other martial art with the exception of SD that has 900 kata?

-bamboo

(edited for spelling)>

Post: themeecer:

Not to my knowledge. Granted I never went around looking for them.>

Post: Mr.Cool:

Dr. Xie Peiqi’s Bagua Yin style Bagua system has over 1000 forms.

http://www.traditionalstudies.org/ysb/>

Post: Mr.Cool:

Quote:
First of all, Tung Hai Chuan is the first man credited for bringing Pa Kua into the public in the early 1800’s. Tung had — I think — three disciples that he taught specially according to their body characteristics and their strengths. The three disciples of Tung are Cheng Tinghua, Yin Fu, and Liang Zhenpu. The style that I practice has a little different history.

“Seventy-two names was recorded at the grave of Dong Hai Chang (Tung Hai-Chuan). Among them was famous practioners and teachers that went on to found their own style and training methods. In the Martial arts world, it is generally recognized that Dong has eight great students each with exceptional abilities. They are:
Yin Fu (1842?1909)
Chen Ting Hua (1848-1900)
Chang Chan Kuei (1859-1940)
Ma Gui (1854 -1940)
Ma Wei Chi (1851 – 1880)
Liu Feng Chun (1855 – 1922)
Liu De Kuan (?-1911)
Song Chang Rong “

From: http://www.geocities.com/ottawakungfu/250Bagau002A.htm

Lots of interesting stuff there :)>

Post: Judge Pen:

[quote=Mr.Cool Dr. Xie Peiqi’s Bagua Yin style Bagua system has over 1000 forms.

http://www.traditionalstudies.org/ysb/[/quote 

1000? Wow. What constitutes a form in his system? Does he know them all?>

Post: Mr.Cool:

I’m not really sure what constituted a form :P This page kind of explains the structure of the system: http://www.traditionalstudies.org/ysb/structure.html

Yeah, he did know them all though and was recording everything he knew onto volumes of video tape. He passed away recently I think. Not sure if he ever finished the project or if his disciple managed to learn everything>

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