New trend in Kung Fu?
Original Poster: BLACK PANTA
Forum: Kung Fu Styles, Chinese Martial Arts
Posted On: 09-01-2006, 23:03
Orginal Post: BLACK PANTA: I’ve started to notice this in alot of Kung Fu practitioners. Nowadays no one artist is concentrating on one Style anymore. You find cross training withing the KF styles themselves. I, myself, dont concider myself a student of Shaolin anymore. I still learn and train Shaolin btw, but I also dabble in other styles. I’m learning some techniques from Kuo Ch’uan, Chin Na etc.
Is the tradition of KF changing?
yes the tradition is always evolving now because people are too ignarant.
yes we have to learn more then one style because only one style is insufficient to do the job well but do not take this comment to heart one style is good but then that style must be excellent.
see so you have to have the understanding from both sides>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
of all the people to respond to this thread. Listen here slapnuts. Think, think, think and make sence before posting.>
[quote=kungfumaster yes the tradition is always evolving now because people are too ignarant.[/quote How are people too ignorant? Can you be more specific on your opinion? I agree with you that it’s evolving, but not due to people’s lack of intelligience!
[quote=kungfumaster yes we have to learn more then one style because only one style is insufficient to do the job well but do not take this comment to heart one style is good but then that style must be excellent. [/quote Why is one style insufficient to do the job? I know plenty of people who have only trained in one style and they are able to “do the job” very well. True it is better to learn more than one style, but if you are able to master the techniques of one style, then the need to master other styles becomes irrelevant. What are you basing your opinion on?
I seriously hope you provide an actual answer to my questions instead of some other response.
Panta – “slapnuts”?!?! I gotta remember that one!!! :lol:>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
I wouldn’t bother remembering slapnuts for too long; he stole it from a pro wrestler, or from somebody else who stole it from a pro wrestler. Either way, Panta’s being a little turdnugget by using the term slapnuts here.
In more seriousness, I was wondering why you, Nick, had the kneejerk reaction, “Of course it’s better to train in more than one style.” I’m sure somebody will cite the Almighty Bruce Lee or the dominance of crosstraining in professional fighters, but I sort of want to see if anyone has a real, logical explanation for why somebody can’t kick as much ass with one style as with many.
I think that this thread might be useful if people actually use their heads and not linguistic vomit.>
I got the answer, because they arent good enough at the one style they do know and think adding more will be better instead of quality. I dont care if its stand up or some type of mma ground stuff. A kyukushin dude should be able to keep a judo guy from throwing him, not 100% of the time, but if he’s decent, then he’ll have trained for it and know how to get into a position that fits him best.>
word, Angry. I think alot of people get into this whole “rock, paper, scissor” mentality of well, I’ll use my bjj ground skills to counter your stand up, and I’ll train Muay Thai to deliver uber powerful strikes in MY stand up game, or in case you’re a grappler, ……and on and on, etc. et al. INstead of just thinking how to apply what you know from one style to all phases/self defense.>
Personally, I feel that it’s better to train in more than one art in order to understand the techniques, principles and applications. Along with that, you can also learn how to recognize and “sense” a setup or technique before it’s executed and you can respond accordingly. However, that being said, I also stated that I feel that someone who has mastered one style would do just fine against someone else of a different style because their chosen style is supposed to encompass all aspects of fighting.
My reaction is based more on the fact that Kungfumaster said that “the tradition is always evolving now because people are too ignarant.” He makes a statement like this and backs it up with nothing. Notice that he still has yet to respond? I’m seriously starting to think he needs to be changed to a pink belt…
For the record, I will NEVER say that one style is superior to another. However, I will concede that a fighter who is proficient in one style can defeat an opponent of a differing style if that opponent is not as proficient. Just becuase one fighter sucks in his style doesn’t mean his style is bad. It just means that the other person was better at fighting in/with their style.>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
I feel where Nick’s comming from. I’ve always said, since I’ve learned that in order to defeat your enemy you must know your enemy. For the record, this thread isn’t about cross training in other arts, but other styles of Kung Fu.
One of the big reasons why I think people train in different styles of KF together is because they dont have either the time, dedication or drive to commit to learning one style that will take them years and years to master. The curriculum in most KF styles are lengthy to say the least.>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
btw Des, I did get slapnuts from a wrestler, the same wrestler that you got turdnugget from lol.>
Take a Hung Gar master vs. a Mantis master. Both masters should be able to put up a hell of a fight. But what if the Hung Gar master was also very advanced in Monkey? Wouldn?t that give him an advantage? That is, wouldn?t he have more tricks up his sleeve? By training in multiple styles, one?s mastery of the martial arts becomes more complete does it not?>
Wushu – No, not necessarily, especially since Mantis footwork comes from Monkey!!! Take two of nature’s natural enemies like the crane and the snake and you’d probably have a better fight on your hands.>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
I believe what both of you are trying to say, is that whatever one style lacks, another can compensate/overcome.>
My motivation for studying under three different masters and three styles plus Yang had to do with where I was located at the time (Dallas, Houston, or New York) plus the different attributes internally that each teacher could provide me. Interestingly, I stayed within the context of “bird” systems, having learned Ying Jow eagle, Shaolin Nine bird, Southern white crane, and Yang taiji. Each had multiple facets of bird attacks and movements. My Shaolin master also knows other animal styles of course and had each of us master one but learn parts of others. One other thing from tradition….in the old days, one would learn 2 or 3 styles to mask one’s real expertise in the main style. This way, a warrior would not bring out his true style unles truly challenged or the others not working. This was not to dishonor teachers or the other styles but to protect oneself in battle or challenges. Most kung fu masters also know an internal style, whether hsing-i, ba gua, or a derivative of taiji. At some point, the internal and external manifestations would merge into an effective combined fighting style.
However, those who say they are masters of kung fu, taiji, tae kwon do, karate, are hard to believe since these respective arts have a few similarities but are usually too disparate to be able to master together. At least, from what I have seen.
One last comment. I for one would get advanced in one style before studying another one. First, you should be able to compartamentalize each style until advanced enough to merge them. Second, if you train under more than one master, usually they will derank you and start over as far as breaking down your skill and rebuilding under their style. At least that was my experience. Each of my three teachers took what I learned before and enhanced and built upon it. But, for instance, I very rarely use my other two styles when training with my current teacher in the school as I would consider that insulting to him. However, when Nbotary, myself, and others get together in the park once a week, I will show them pieces of my other stuff so they can be exposed to it.>
Per Tease’s comments on linguistic vomit, just quick point about mastering one style: observationally, the kung fu traditional styles that are still around today must be effective in combat and tested over time or they would not have survived to this day. Most people today do not have the patience. I have my closest kung fu brother, Joel Rodriguez in Atlanta, who has trained pure Ying Jow for 23 years from Leung Shum and maybe dabbled a little in jujitsu for ground applications but otherwise is “pure” and is an effective fighter. When I go to Atlanta or he comes here, when we spar we alternate between staying just in Ying jow or sometimes I use my other stuff so he can react to it and learn it. My friends, learning is a continuous thing. I still cannot beat any one of my three teachers!!!>
“I still cannot beat any one of my three teachers!!!” – Bloodybirds
lol, I have the same problem ;)>
There’s a reason for that – that’s why they are the teacher and we are the student!!! :wink:>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=nbotary There’s a reason for that – that’s why they are the teacher and we are the student!!! :wink:[/quote
You think that would be an obvious thought. :wink:>
bloodybirds, did ur eagle and crane teachers spar with you with any other styles?or just your shaolin teacher?
and how long do you think it would take to establish a foundation in tai chi strong enough so that i can learn other styles ( i know it depends but roughly lol). Because iv found two greeaaat kung fu classes (which unlike muay thai and MMA are rare in Lonon) in Lau Gar and Mantis, but i want to stick with tai chi (which i finally found a decent lookin skool for) first.>
Okay BP and my bro, you got me on that one…..thinkin’ and prayin’ for my UT bros tonight instead of saying the obvious….duh!!!! BP, Nbotary is just mad at me cuz of whippins last night…..lol.
That, and 63 years, 40 years, and 33 years beats my years…..but I’m still better lookin, when the stitches heal!!!!>
dojutsu, I have done taiji for only about 8 years under my crane master, Jeff Bolt, while doing kung fu much longer. I will tell you that, for me, taiji was much harder than kung fu for many reasons. The foundation is a little different because each move should be in the present. Be sure the taiji instructor is clear that he/she teaches the practical applications, the moving and stationary push hands, at least one two person set that trains gapping etc. In other words, make sure it is legit and not just someone learning off a David Carradine thing. Ask their lineage. To be decent in taiji takes about 7-10 years of consistent study. And then a lifetime to totally understand internal principles. But I have found it has helped my rooting, fa jing, and fluidity in my kung fu movements. Hope this helps.>
Well im pretty sure he has a good focus on the practical applications. Says how he only practises the form once every four weeks or so, and also talks about how hes taught self defence workshops for women based on some of his tai chi. Ended up having a long conversation on him not wanting people to lose Tai Chi as a martial art, but there was one point where he said you’ll be proficient in 6 weeks and red lights turned on because i know that doesnt sound right.either hes got a diffferent idea of profiency in the art to me, doesnt know his stuff proper, or he was tryin to make it look quicker to learn to draw me away from Muay Thai (which i did for months and ended up with a nice long lasting back inury.damn outta control kids) and into his art.
Apparantly he teaches the Li family style, which i think invloves some parts of Feng Shou kung fu or something (having trouble finding good info on Li Tai Chi). He was taught under Chee Soo, who was taught by Chan Kam Lee who i think brought the system over here (loads of people probably know this, but just wanted to show… i do too )
He also says he incorporates some Ba Gua n Xing I into what he teaches, but dont know anything about those lineages.
Your making it sound like Taiji is going to be of more use supplementing other kung fu, than as a style in itself for a long time!!is that true? And what do you mean each move should be in the present?my actual kung fu experience is not all that, so comment went kinda… ova my head.
and what do you think of this teacher?sound legit?you sound like you’ve been doing this a decent amount of time when 8years becomes “only” 8 years lol.most of you lot would probably have a better idea
well hes writing a book on it (after four books he just finished on osteopathy or something ) so he at least thinks he knows what hes talking about!>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
First of all, I’m really glad to see how this thread turned out. This could’ve been a horrible festival of noob bashing and joking like most of our other threads lately I’m happy to see we aren’t totally worthless forum members. Cheers, everyone.
Second, Bloodybirds, the comment I made about linguistic vomit was my way of telling people not to repeat something that they read in Black Belt magazine about how awesome crosstraining is or whatever. I think people held up their end of the bargain in that respect, hence my happiness at this thread’s progression.
Third, Bloodybirds again, I find it very interesting that you were able to find a bird trend in all of your schools. This may warrant another thread topic, and it may even be beyond your expertise in a way, but what the hell: If you had to define it, without specific schools or lineages, how would you define a bird style? Various animals are common to several schools and lineages, and I wonder how easily a single animal could be extracted from all of them.
Lastly, the issue of multiple styles does provide a decent tactical advantage. Much like Padawan’s comment about a Hung Gar-Monkey mix against a Mantis player, if the Hung Gar player pulls out a typical Monkey technique, perhaps a tumble to evade a strike or gain better offensive position, then the Mantis player may not just be disadvantaged technically by the merits of the Monkey style in themselves, but he may also be confused by the sudden change in style. However, I do have to mention that at advanced levels, this probably isn’t as true because as soon as the Hung Gar player shows that he can do Monkey techniques, the Mantis master will be able to accomodate both styles in his approach. The surprise factor may give an edge, but I don’t think it can always win outright. I’m sure this issue requires more discussion, but it’s a very arcane issue to discuss, so it’ll be fun to dissect it.>
First, a comment to Dojutsu: run from this man and never step foot in there again!!! IF he only practices the form every 4 weeks, and says you will be proficient in 6 weeks, after laughing at him I would walk out!!! I have been doing kung fu for a long time and like I said tai chi for 8 years, and my tai chi is still no where close to my kung fu acumen. Furthermore, to become proficient at the fighting skills of an internal art, whether tai chi, ba gua, or hsing-i, takes years of dedicated practice under a true master. I have never heard of this guy and from what I know the Li family style was mentioned in Inside Kung Fu once as a derivative style of a combo of the 5 main branches of tai chi: Sun, Wu, Chen, Yang, and Wu Hao. In other words, it is an amalgamation of all five where they pick and chose and is thus a very young derivative. Also, for ME tai chi is a supplement to my kung fu. I apologize if I meant it to sound that way for everyone!!! Some study only tai chi or internal arts exclusively, although most kung fu masters also do tai chi (I.E. my Ying jow master also is a master of Wu style, Jeff Bolt and Dr Yang are masters of Yang style as well as their kung fu, etc.) and even my Shaolin master does internal kung fu. Soooo…it depends upon what you want. Just realize, at least for ME, that the concepts of the internal style were much harder for me to grasp than the external of kung fu. Eventually, both ends of the spectrum merge over time until you are no longer internal/external, but just one complementing and completing the other (the yin of tai chi with the yang of kung fu, to be overly simplistic).
Tease, as always, thank you for thought provoking (what a bad habit you have!!!). Let me explain. Ying jow is a bird style where it imitates the grabbing and locking of the eagle in nature. My particular Shaolin style, Nine birds, is my Shaolin master’s master family style in Hong Kong (sorry, maybe a redundant master there somewhere….lol), and of course Jeff teaching white crane bird. Also, the original Chen style tai chi, and its main derivatives, Wu and Yang, were somewhat based on snake and crane movements originally and then adapted to a greater whole as internal arts progressed and evolved from the Chen village. As Nbotary and Wushu will tell you, I have a significant beak so it was natural to become a pecker!!! All I know is that, to this day, if one of my masters shows me a “bird” technique, I get it right away. In Nine birds, inclusively there are such fighting forms as crane, Shaolin eagle, hawk, stork, dove fist, falcon, etc. each with its own validity and unique way of fighting. My Shaolin master has also of course, shown us mantis, snake, etc and some of my classmates have specialized in those styles as well.
Now, to your commentary of multiple styles, I concur with your comments and might add, as before, that in old times in China people would learn “masking” styles or techniques to hide their real style until they were supremely challenged or provoked in a fight. Eventually, as we both know, the basis for any animal style is fighting naturally and relaxed, and subjugating at the highest level thought for instinct (not suspending thought per se but trying to return to man’s natural state as an animal himself) or as my Ying jow master was fond of saying, returning to the infant human state where breathing and everything else was a natural consequence.
Anyway, my two cents worth on the morning after my undergrad alma matter has won the national championship during the Vince Young show!!! HOOK’EM HORNS!!!>
the system i think he teaches seems to be a family kung fu style called feng shou that is based on some of the principles of tai chi.and you may not have heard of his teachers or anything but if you google them, even check in wikipedia you’ll find some information on Li Family Arts, which im starting to assume is what this guy teaches, not proper tai chi.
long story short i think i just need to go and see lol.the family system is meant to include poison hand techniques which (whatever your opinion on the techniques: people call them deadly and effective one-touch-kill techniques ) is a “bird” technique.i think?or snake. im not sure
and does anyone know of any ying jow eagle claw schools in london?
anyway to escape my personal reverie, iv ended up in loads of conversations about mixing different kung fu styles.despite my screen name almost everyone i know who does martial arts studies kung fu.the younger people i talk to all seem intent on studying a style for 2-3 years, then finding another.
but when talking to their masters they seem focused on persevering in one style, and just making sure its a good one!my friends mantis master said himself that while his system of mantis was the most “complete” one available to him, he still said ying jow eagle claw is a more complete style.but hed still rather carry on perfecting his mantis style and adapting it to suit different styles.but his adaptions were all personal,to suit the different styles he spars with.and my friends hung gar master said no one has beaten his technique, but if someone did, hed “figure something out for that guy.”
to an extent i think this is what Bruce Lee may have wanted (dont flame at the mention of his name, you dont like the dude, forget i mentioned him) in that you “make your own jeet kune do”.while i personally think he became a bit of a jack of all trades (the mantis master has been training and adapting his one style for 35 years now, Bruce Lee didnt even live that long, no offence!) he had a point. if u practise 1 or 1000 types of kung fu,each can be altered or tweaked once the foundation is built strong enough
so while the idea of mixing kung fu styles has been around for ages, whether your covering you specialty of covering what you think are weak areas of an art,i dont think its necessary. and Kris, the tactical advantages of mixing styles aside, you could simply adapt one central art in a personal manner, and create/adapt a technique to suprise your opponent, or force him into an uncomfortable situation. the same way a boxer only does boxing, personal style can give and advantage.much like muhammed ali’s swagger-filled style made his movements unpredictable.
while it may take a while to adapt kung fu in such a way, it would take at least as long as it would to learn a whole new style!>
Poison hand is not a tai chi technique but rather an external kung fu technique similar to dim mak or da mak. It is present in certain bird systems like white crane and Ying jow. My ying jow and white crane teacher would only pass it to trusted students. I learned dim mak and da mak but very little poison hand because, if learned improperly like iron palm, can cause severe internal damage to organs, chi, and the nervous system. Poison hand is an advanced technique for only trusted disciples of a true master and could hurt oneself more than any enemy. Plus, certain herbs must be consistently applied when training in it.
Most internal styles like tai chi will use fa jing, internal expression of chi, and silk reeling energy to generate the waist action and power to internally damage organs, nerves, etc.
You made an important point about foundation. All 425 styles of kung fu (and for instance 12 systems of preying mantis) plus the major internal styles take years of dedication. As explanined before, I stuck to three different teachers teaching “bird” systems that were complementary to each other plus a Yang taiji which, under Dr. Yang and Sifu Bolt, does emphasize crane in some aspects. Sooo….once the foundation is poured, what bricks or interior design is used to build the rest of the house is supported by that foundation.>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
btw it’s not Fa Jing, it’s Fa Jher, Fa Jher, get it rite dammit lol
Even tho I’m a kung fu guy and all, I have to admit that Dim Mak is garbage, close to bullshit. I’m not saying pressure points dont work/hurt, but it only works if your opponent is still and there’s no adrenaline running through his body. Not only that, but you have to be very very precise (snake) and strong (tiger) to pull of anything from Dim Mak. I guess because my wife is studying TCM I see pressure points only useful to heal not to hurt.
BTW I have gone against guys that know Dim Mak, they tried their Dim Mak and it Din Nat Wok. I dont want to swerve this thread, but just had to say that.
Keepin on topic, (i’m trying here okay lol). A lot of people think Dim Mak is a style on it’s own, it does have alot of techniques but it’s not meant to be a style. It’s like Chin Na where it compliments styles and would/could be easily integrated into anyone style.>
Black Panta, sorry to respectfully disagree with you, but it is fa jing, under one major Chinese dialect. Fa Jher is another dialect. Either that, or most of the Chinese martial arts community, including the Chinese ones, have it wrong. Secondly, I also respectfully disagree with you about dim mak, at least as it is truly taught and I have seen and felt it in Hong Kong. I agree, it is not a style and most people never learn the proper technique as different strikes depend upon different times of the day etc. Chin na is ubiqitous and can be found in most Chinese styles…..although in mantis, crane, and eagle it is preponderant and a large part of the styles. Most Americans have no clue as to the proper training for dim mak or iron palm (see Brian Gray or John Painter). Sooo…just my humble opinion dammit….lol.>
Black Panta….looks like I have been enlightened….LOL….. my brother Nbotary looked at your response and interprets fa jher as from Austin Powers!!!! Sorry, I did not get the reference at first!!!! So sorry No. 1 son!!! My comments respectfully still disagree with your dim mak comments. Thanks for the laugh….needed it this afternoon.>
Not so sure I agree with you on Dim Mak and pressure points Panta. It?s my opinion that almost every strike one makes should be directed to a pressure point. But that?s cool, one man?s garbage is another?s treasure
Back on topic: Martial applications and enhancements aside, a lot of KFers (particularly younger ones) are going multi-style just because it?s fun (come on, tumbling around like a monkey, a drunk, and a drunken monkey. That?s gotta be fun!). Above all else one?s time spent in the martial arts should be enjoyable no?>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
[quote=Bloodybirds Black Panta….looks like I have been enlightened….LOL….. my brother Nbotary looked at your response and interprets fa jher as from Austin Powers!!!! Sorry, I did not get the reference at first!!!! So sorry No. 1 son!!! My comments respectfully still disagree with your dim mak comments. Thanks for the laugh….needed it this afternoon.[/quote
LOL thanks Nick, BB if everyone agreed then, gosh darn it, we wouldn’t need lawyers. Imagine what kind of world that would be lol.
I appreciate the respect and it is returned. As far as Dim Mak, it has been in my experience that when an opponent is resisting, it is near impossible to effectively apply the techniques. Especially when grappling. When they would try their Dim Mak techniques, they would leave themselves soo open for attacks it wasn’t funny. I have felt Dim Mak in a non combative situation, and I admit, it does hurt, but that’s in a situation like *if someone comes at you like this, then you do this, if you push here (and it’s usually some pressure point thats harder to access than the starter in my car.) then it will hurt. I can’t see Dim Mak being very realistic. I would really say that it would be better time spent getting good at Chin Na. I have used Chin Na (the very little I know) and that definately does work.>
Post: BLACK PANTA:
cross training in styles also keeps things interesting. I know for me it was/is fascinating to see the different areas covered by the different animals, and not to mention the cross training going on with hard and soft styles.>
Glad that I could be of service!!! It took me a moment to figure out where I had heard it, but BB did get a good laugh out of it when I told him where it was from!!!
By the way, Britney has me on speed dial on her cell phone and she calls me “tripod”!!! When I’m done with her, I tell her: “You have the right to remain sexy shuga!!!” :lol:>
Britney says, “you know after a good Kevin, I like to pop open a good Nick and drink it all in, ” slurp, slurp, burp, burp!!! Sorry, for Jessica Alba a straw might be handy. BP, I totally agree with your assessment of chin na. Interestingly, the locking I learned while training under Ying Jow is a little different from the chin na I have learned from Jeff Bolt and Dr. Yang. Jeff developed a really cool 4 part two person chin na set that really uses both the pre-movement setups and the actual apps really well. Another thing about chin na….it allows you to gradate your response to your opponent, from placid control to unfettered ripping and hurting. Like anything else in the art, the dim mak, etc. needs to be applied appropriately and under the right circumstance. You raise an issue I need to talk to my Shaolin master about!!! Thanks BP. Even after all these years, the only way we advance is to ask and be challenged!!!>
Oh, to your lawyer comment BP…from Devil’s Advocate, Keanu to Al, ” Why the law Dad…because the law gets us into everything son!!!” Or my favorite oldy: why did the shark not eat the lawyer swimming in the sea….professional courtesy.>
*Homer Simpson voice* Oooohhhhh – Jessica Alba!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>