One Inch Punch

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One Inch Punch
Original Poster: EvilScott
Forum: Kung Fu Styles, Chinese Martial Arts
Posted On: 09-08-2004, 20:08

Orginal Post: EvilScott: Comments?

edit: Do think its useful in combat?

Post: dscott:

I’ve heard of it and seen it in video clips but that’s about it.>

Post: Ninja Kl0wn:

I’ve seen it, I’ve had it explained to me, I don’t bother with it.

If I’m in a range where I need to be punching from that short of a distance, it’s knee/elbow/headbutt/bite time.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=Ninja Kl0wn If I’m in a range where I need to be punching from that short of a distance, it’s knee/elbow/headbutt/bite time.[/quote 

The principles of dropping your weight in a corkscrew can be applied from a variety of situations.>

Post: CreativeFighter:

Sure it’s useful. A thumb to the eye can be useful in the right situation. If you can do it correctly and quickly, then sure, go for it, but never try to use it as a sole technique. Ever.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I can do it. For some reason, though, I think I can generate a lot more power using my palm and popping my wrist into them (like a fuk sao) at the same time. When I say I can do it I mean that I can generate a good amount of power from that distance. My sifu can do it way, way better than I can, and his sifu is just scary.>

Post: monkeypalm:

the way ive been shown it, its not a corkscrew. and its not really a fighting technique, like ninja klown said, that distance is better spent elbows/knees. its more a party trick to illustrate close range power generation. and the kind of power it can generate is really something amazing. i used to train with a sifu who regularly demonstrated it. KAPOW! he could send almost anyone flying.

there are a couple of ways of doing it, and of generating power in general… one is a very fast push, used for show, which sends people reeling backwards. a much more difficult, effective and downright dangerous version is the one which drops people straight to the floor like a sack of spuds. this one requires some serious muscle control, as you basically have to turn you muscles off, and accelarate your dead-body-weight into the target, where it ‘explodes’ inside, rather than dispersing on the surface. needless to say, its not very pleasant and definately no good for demos as it does some serious damage. my sigung has been known to demonstrate a ‘no inch punch’ just for fun where he places his hand on your chest and, with no wind up whatsoever, whams you with his ‘mind force’. although i havent seen it myself… :)>

Post: zefff:

This is according to what Ive been taught:

really it should be called inch power. The inch punch is just an illustration of the technique. There is a big difference between the ‘show’ punch and the real principal technique. It should be practised through a whole list of applications – finger, knuckle, palm, wrist, forearm, heel of palm (fak sau), elbow, shoulder etc.

When used in combat inch power should penetrate the target like a nail being hammered in, not send the whole body flying backwards as if hit by a bus.

You can practise on focus pads, heavy bag, gravel bag. If you train it and keep the principle in mind, it affects a lot of other areas of your WC technique, I have found….but I am rubbish at it TBH :mrgreen:>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=monkeypalm the way ive been shown it, its not a corkscrew. [/quote 

The way I was taught you have your dead weight arm locked in position, you drop your weight and twist shooting your arm forward. You can use an elbow to strike if you want – my point was the principle is useful in combat.

[quote=monkeypalm 
and its not really a fighting technique,[/quote 

The principle can be applied in situations when you are very close to your opponent – this tends to happen occasionally in WC.>

Post: monkeypalm:

[quote=EvilScott [quote=monkeypalm the way ive been shown it, its not a corkscrew. [/quote 

The way I was taught you have your dead weight arm locked in position, you drop your weight and twist shooting your arm forward. You can use an elbow to strike if you want – my point was the principle is useful in combat.

[quote=monkeypalm 
and its not really a fighting technique,[/quote 

The principle can be applied in situations when you are very close to your opponent – this tends to happen occasionally in WC.[/quote yes, i agree with you. thats what i meant when i said

Quote:
its more a party trick to illustrate close range power generation

anyway, i accept the way you have been taught to do it, ive been shown it differently… no big deal!>

Post: nEo-Wolf:

I guess it could be useful in combat if you were really close in to each other then you 1inch punch them…>

Post: Blade:

You dont need to be close to your opponent to do a one inch punch.
a one inch punch doesnt mean you and your target are an inch away from eachother, it means your knuckles could hit that person with good force if they were one inch from it. it is there to save movement, so that you can attack without cocking back \ gathering momentum to recieve force in your punch. you seem to have gotten the wrong idea that the one inch punch is substitute for close range strikes.>

Post: graham1:

I would only recommend use of the ‘one inch punch’ as a reflexive technique in circumstances where, as a close-to-body technique it would have its worth as an aggressive response to an attempted throw or wrestling move, as by then your attacker is far too close & you would thus only have the one chance. It would have worth as an unexpected aggressive move, if it could be trained from a partially extended or extended arm position, e.g. attacker grabs your wrists or lapels & you release the grab, where bringing your hand back to your body or the side of your face to chamber for a punch would be a bit of a giveaway as to what you intended doing.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Like Blade said, the point of the one inch punch isn’t to lure your opponent into walking up to within an inch of you and then deck them. A lot of what we do in Wing Chun (at least at my kwoon) involves constant forward pressure against your opponent’s defenses, which is where the idea of being like water originated – you want to push forward and attack, going around or crashing through anything raised against you. As a result, when you get the opportunity to strike you may not be very far from your opponent. The idea is that you don’t need to draw your hand back or wind up to generate power, and this is demonstrated to impress spectators by doing a “one inch punch”.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=monkeypalm anyway, i accept the way you have been taught to do it, ive been shown it differently… no big deal![/quote 

I doubt doubt you, but I’m curious: how you you shown it?>

Post: wuming:

Of course its useful, most Chinese martial arts, especially the internal styles specialize in close range strikes. It is in fact a more practicle strike because you do not need to pull your arm back to strike, which will waste alot of time. All you do is utilize your body’s motion (and/or chi flow if it is an internal strike).>

Post: Kinjo:

I’m not an expert within this perticular subject but I do have an opinion. I know that this is a move that reqiers (spelling?) a lot of dedication and practicing. Sure it’s a way of training your body controll and the principle of the technique once mastered could probably improve your fighting capabilities somewhat. However, consider just how many years it would take to learn how to do this in the heat of battle, to even think of the technique once your under pressure or to concentrate enough or even if you would think of it in battle, would you really take the chance? If failed he would have a perfect opertunity to make you arm f.u.b.a.r.

But let’s overlook it from a scenario. Imagine having a guy a few weightclasses above you standing right infront of you performing a choke with both his hands. Here is a golden opertunity for an inch punch one might think but remember that you’re lucky if you even have the time to perfrom one technique if the guy is strong/skilled enough and can you do it while feeling dizzy from the lack of oxygen or even blood to you brain. Even if I knew the technique I’d rather do a groinkick or a palm strike to either the throat or nose but that would all depend on how close to the guy I would be.

But anyway, I think that it’s better to have mastered a tech than no mastering it even though you might never use it.

/Kinjo>

Post: Gong||Jau:

The thing is, it’s not a special technique. You can punch someone the same way from well over a foot away, and it will work fine. We call it “inch power” because the power doesn’t come from winding up your arm or distance, but from dropping your weight into your opponent through your hand. In my opinion, the only reason the phrase “one inch punch” means anything is because Bruce Lee did it to impress people. Any Wing Chun teacher worth anything should be able to do one, and probably better than Lee did.>

Post: monkeypalm:

[quote=Kinjo  Even if I knew the technique I’d rather do a groinkick or a palm strike to either the throat or nose but that would all depend on how close to the guy I would be.

/Kinjo[/quote 

groinkick / palm strike? the principle behind the one inch punch can be applied to both of these, in fact any attack. swap the punch for a palm, jab, knife hand, whatever. swap it for a kick, knee, elbow… its close range power generation.

evilscott…

Quote:
I doubt doubt you, but I’m curious: how you you shown it?

hehe i think you mean dont doubt you? ;) )i hope so anyway!)

well, you said :

Quote:
The way I was taught you have your dead weight arm locked in position, you drop your weight and twist shooting your arm forward

the reason i would do it differently is as follows. perhaps it could be a question of semantics or terminology, but i dont like the words ‘locked in.’
i am a skinny guy. (see my photo album!). if i locked my arm and dropped my bodyweight into someone, most likely i will bounce off. like a mini cooper smashing into a 3 ton truck, im going to come out worst off. the way ive been shown it, or rather what i have picked up, is that its more a question of relaxation, structure and focus.

its really a relaxed structure which will help you to generate power. as you do the punch, as your fist makes contact, the resistance met needs to go somewhere. if im locked in, it will go straight back into my body, bouncing me off. however if i am relaxed and have a good structure, the resistance will pass through my relaxed muscles and joints to the ground. once the incoming resistance is neutralised, then you can use your focus to drive the fist into the target. the more relaxed and focused you are, the more you can throw around people stronger than you without adversely affecting your own balance / centre of gravity. urm… its not to great a description but hey, i hope you know where im coming from… :)>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

Just gotta say this about the one inch punch. I have said it b4. It is a concept, not really a punch. I have seen other members on this thread going this way in their posts. I think Bruce’s intention was to show how the concept can be effective, but the on lookers mistakingly mis interpreted it. You can find the one inch concept in Kung Fu, Karate and even boxing. Scott did a great description of the concept.>

Post: monkeypalm:

agreed. onlookers interpreting things incorrectly in any situation can lead to a whole heap of differences in understanding!>

Post: zefff:

I thought I described it well enuff but respect to the other WC guys for expanding on it. It seems we all more or less agree :mrgreen:

As I said B4 there are two methods for this concept. I think this is what Monkeypalm and dscott are confused about with their differences. The first is as dscott describes where the whole body and waist especially is used to propel the fist like a bullet from a gun.

The second is where it is up to the wrist, forearm, elbow, tricep and a little latisimus dorci to accelerate and penetrate through the point of initial contact like a laserbeam.

Practice this on a heavy bag and although u r hitting hard, the bag should not move much if at all. If you can hit hard without making the bag swing, you are doing it right cos %100 of the force is being absorbed by the bag.

I know women who can punch harder than me using this 2nd method. It is the true method that should be cultivated through regular practise. If you are deprived of time in your classes you will prolly be focusing on other aspects which return more immediate benefits such as structure, sensitivity, limb-speed and footwork.

I cant be arsed to go on after this cos it seems that people are posting when they dont know what they are talking about.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=zefff As I said B4 there are two methods for this concept. I think this is what Monkeypalm and dscott are confused about with their differences. The first is as dscott describes where the whole body and waist especially is used to propel the fist like a bullet from a gun.

The second is where it is up to the wrist, forearm, elbow, tricep and a little latisimus dorci to accelerate and penetrate through the point of initial contact like a laserbeam.

Practice this on a heavy bag and although u r hitting hard, the bag should not move much if at all. If you can hit hard without making the bag swing, you are doing it right cos %100 of the force is being absorbed by the bag.
[/quote 

It’s the difference between pushing power and penetrating power. Pushing power is the one usually demostrated – the person moves. Penetrating power just HURTS. It’s hard to explain the difference…zefff did a pretty good job of it.>

Post: zefff:

So is inch power useful in combat?…yes 8) :mrgreen:

no one mentioned the one inch headbutt though! I luv that old chestnut! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:>

Post: superjim:

The inch power thing that was being discussed seems like it would be really useful in a fight, however the question was about the one-inch punch which, in my opinion, seems kind of pointless, you could spend the time you would spend training that technique practicing pulling your hand back really fast or something. Keep in mind I’m talking about the one I’ve seen in demonstrations where the attacker (Bruce Lee) is standing in front of the person and with his fist an inch away knocks them back into a chair, the whole ‘penetrating power’ sound much more effective, effective and painful… One inch headbutt, eh zefff?>

Post: dcohen:

[quote=superjim demonstrations where the attacker (Bruce Lee) is standing in front of the person and with his fist an inch away knocks them back into a chair[/quote 

Interestingly enough, you’ll always find that damn chair at the person’s rear triangulation point…the place they’d have to take a simple step onto, to regain their balance. In effect, they get pushed a little and then they trip over a friggin folding chair. Watch those videos, see what I’m talking about.

“No-inch” punches are what are REALLY useful in a fight…if you can throw a xingyi/bagua type wave into someone while you’re grappling, whether standing or on the ground, you can do some serious damage to their body, not even factoring in the massive disorientation that you’ll get with any luck, or the big psychological effect of “magic powers” being used on a really pissed off, really committed, and usually pretty unskilled fighter.

Something worth getting good at, and if you can do it no matter how your body is (i.e., no needed setup), suddenly a heavy punch becomes REALLY heavy and you can basically put your hand on someone, connect it into their center, and drop them without much of a fuss. At that point your headstomping skills are called on.

-David>

Post: confusingDot:

“Any Wing Chun teacher worth anything should be able to do one, and probably better than Lee did.”

why would they be able to do it better then lee. lee gained his power form his amazing strength, of working out all the time, and the use of electric shock, and i also heard he used drugs.

The one inch punch is just a DEMONSTRATION of how good a normal punch is. You can do a so called “one inch punch” from any striking distance, and ot any area of hte opponent.

the one inch punch is a PUNCH. that is all it is. what makes it specifically different is that you start with an open hand and clasp it before impact to help accelerate the hand, use a vertical fist, and utilize the wrist joint of bending and unbending to add in additional force. perosnally i do htis in all my punches, not just close range.

the punch was called the one inch punch because of it’s effectiveness in close range. so when anyone saw it demonstrated… it was most likely demonstrated from one inch, and it’s a catchy name. it’s not something you jsut stand there and wait to do… you just fire it out, and retract it back ready to od another.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

The one inch punch, in the sense that Lee did it (there are probably other ways), is done based on Wing Chun principles. Lee never even learned the third Wing Chun form. If Wing Chun skill were based on strength, Yip Man would have been the worst practitioner of all time, not one of the greatest.

It’s not just a demonstration of a normal punch. It’s a normal Wing Chun straight punch, but it isn’t a cross or reverse punch. It’s based on rooting your structure into the ground and throwing a punch so that even at close range all of the energy is thrown into your opponent, and having solid structure so that the energy isn’t lost in your shoulder or hips.>

Post: wuming:

[quote=superjim The inch power thing that was being discussed seems like it would be really useful in a fight, however the question was about the one-inch punch which, in my opinion, seems kind of pointless, you could spend the time you would spend training that technique practicing pulling your hand back really fast or something. Keep in mind I’m talking about the one I’ve seen in demonstrations where the attacker (Bruce Lee) is standing in front of the person and with his fist an inch away knocks them back into a chair, the whole ‘penetrating power’ sound much more effective, effective and painful… One inch headbutt, eh zefff?[/quote 

The “one inch punch” is not a pointless technique. Three of the very important deciding factors in a fight are distance, time, and angles. First of all, the “one inch puch” is just demonstrating the fact that attacks can be made without having to pull your arm back and swing. These attacks utilize the motion of the body (particularly at the waste) to generate power so that in essence you are throwing the weight of your body behind the attack. Think about this closely, if you are in a fight and you find your self in a close range situation would it be a good idea to first pull your arm back to throw an attack? The answer is obviously no, during the time that you wasted pulling your arm back your opponent could have made an attack on you; you thus wasted precious time and energy. Even if you practiced pulling your arm back really fast, it is still not an effecient use of your time or energy. To elaborate on what Zeff was talking about, in my Pa Kua class we talk about both a “shocking chi wave” and a “pushing chi wave.” Essentialy an attack with a “shocking chi wave” is used to penetrate inside the persons body and disrupt internal systems (cause damage to internal organs, cause internal bleeding, etc.). Obviously this type of strike can be very damaging, but it still makes sense to also use a “pushing” strike — I do not think that you are going to want to severly hurt everyone you fight with. There are bound to be instances where internally damaging your opponent might not be a very bright idea: maybe the person is your friend, maybe you don’t want to be liable for attempted manslaughter or murder if you actually kill the person, or maybe you actually value human life and realize that you do not need to hurt people only incompacitate (sp?)them for the time being.>

Post: wuming:

Ninja klown, can I ask you where you found that picture. I find it quite amusing.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

To add a point to what wuming said: also, as long as your arms are between you and your opponent you have an extra line of defense. Even if my arm was extended to punch someone I could still easily deflect a strike simply by twisting it, or in an extreme case drawing it to my face. By drawing your arm back to strike you remove half of this defense and leave yourself open, if only for a split second.>

Post: confusingDot:

“If Wing Chun skill were based on strength, Yip Man would have been the worst practitioner of all time, not one of the greatest. ” Wing chun and all other martial arts are trying to use technique and structure and whatever else to maxmize the effectiveness of thier strength. yip man must have had great technique and structure and form, and grace and all that, and not had good strength, so as be able to generate quite some amazing power for his size. but remember this is FOR HIS SIZE, lee must have been many times stronger tehn yip man. althoguh i do NOT know how close lee’s technique was to yip man’s, i doubt taht you would say that lee had bad techique. the combination of his strength, and his technique that maximized his strength is what gave him such a great punch.

need to add as well to what wumming and gong sao said. a punch that you spend practicing pulling back quickly to bring it forward quickly, the same amount of time practicing pushing your hand forward faster will will give you a faster punch, and a stronger punch.>

Post: monkeypalm:

none of us here knew bruce lee and none knew ip man so to compare the two is pointless.

i think the one inch punch subject has been well covered…>

Post: confusingDot:

none of us knew them, but that doesn’t mean we can’t compare what we know about them, which is what we would have done if we knew them, we would have compared what we know about htem. and as to thier fighting abilities, and feats, many are recorded, which are QUITE viable facts in comparing the two.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Wing Chun relies less on strength than any other art I’ve ever seen. It uses structure to move your body as a unit and sets the joints at their naturally strongest angles and angles that put the muscles at optimal levels of extension. Combined with proper rooting this allows you to throw the whole mass of your body into someone, with your arm acting as the vessel through which the force passes en route to your opponent. Strength is necessary for normal people because we don’t have the skill to maintain perfect structure all the time, but the more skill you have the less strength you need.

Now, let’s compare Yip Man and Bruce Lee’s skill in Wing Chun. This isn’t fighting ability or strength. This is pure skill. Bruce learned the first two forms of the system and some of the wooden dummy form and was practicing Chi Sao when he left Honk Kong and moved to the U.S. Yip Man knew the entire system in a way that could be considered perfect, since every teacher in the Yip Man lineage (this includes Kenneth Chung, Ben Der, Hawkins Cheung, Leung Ting, William Cheung, Leung Sheung, and the late great Wong Shun Leung, among many others) derived their knowledge from him and from working amongst themselves under his supervision. Bear in mind that once Bruce left Honk Kong he didn’t have any other Wing Chun practitioners to refine his skills with, which is why he began to study other arts and what lead him to JKD. I’m sorry, but there’s no way his skill in Wing Chun was even close to that of Yip Man. I’m not saying his punch was weak, but I don’t see where he would have developed the penetrating power that most decent Wing Chun instructors have, since he had nowhere to learn and refine it.>

Post: confusingDot:

“which is why he began to study other arts and what lead him to JKD. ” just because he didn’t finish wing chun he went to other styles??? wing chun is by no means perfect. waht lee saw was imperfections in the first tow forms, and the wooden dummy form. so that is why he went to other styles, and tried to add in what is his own.

“I’m sorry, but there’s no way his skill in Wing Chun was even close to that of Yip Man. ” I never said that his skill came even close to yip man. What i’m talking about is how that any technique is made to try to utilize strength (and other assents) to their fullest potential. SO waht i’m saying is that although yip man may have reached his potential in using his technique to fully utilize all his strenght… since lee’s strength was greater, his potential was higher, and also the force of his punch should be stronger. So strength is a base of wing chun. what i’m ALSO saying is that lee’s technique is by NO NO NO NO NO NO means bad, it was GOOD.

“I’m not saying his punch was weak, but I don’t see where he would have developed the penetrating power that most decent Wing Chun instructors have, since he had nowhere to learn and refine it.” If he were to have only trained in the first two forms and hte wooden dummy form, taht means that he was bad at the third form, and all the other forms… this does NOT mean that he was bad at the first two forms, and the wooden dummy form. He only did not know the other forms that weren’t taught to him. him not knowing the other forms… does not mean that he was bad at the ones he knew. i have never heard any wing chun instructors say that bruce lee had bad technique when he practiced wing chun. there are wing chun advocates who actually dislike bruce lee because tehy believe he stole form them, so i believe they’d be happy to point out any bad technique he had. I have not heard or seen any other wing chun instructur, or other ma who had such power in a punch derived from one inch away.>

Post: zefff:

ConfusingDot – it appears you are comparing the potential striking force (not strength) of Bruce in his prime and Grandmaster Ip man in his later years. In his youth Grandmaster Ip man was known as a highly skilled and powerful exponent.

I also believe that if Bruce had lived on his art would have returned to a more WC like manner, speaking mechanically.>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Well, the Chinese martial arts aficionados have pretty much covered the important angles in this debate, so I’ll just post my thoughts as they come.

‘Inch power’ is by no means anything unique to Wing Chun, or even Chinese martial arts for that matter. The ability to generate tremendous power (by that, I mean work done per unit time) without a windup is a goal in almost every physical activity requiring vigorous motion – all internal martial styles manifest it early in serious practitioners, wrestlers and judoka alike use it to snap their opponents into the air and down to the mat in explosive throws, good boxers use it to throw sledgehammer hooks right out of a jab (something that Joe Louis – or one of his peers, I can’t remember which – was famous for).

Consider the mechanics of, say, a punch or even a kick – the fact of the matter is that very little power comes from the local motive structures of the attacking limb proper. In fact, the true power in any explosive technique save for a flying one originates from the reaction force of human bodyweight at the level of the ground. This force is translated through muscular tension and joint reaction forces to the desired point of contact through body alignment and precise muscular control – like it has already been said, real heavy sluggers learn to put their bodies into the strike. In this sense, the windup of the arm is, by and large, unnecessary and undesirable to the fighter who has mastered the use of his body to such a degree, because this not only telegraphs his intentions, but also breaks the alignment of his body, causing power to be lost in the delivery to the target area. In a sense, point-blank attacks exemplified by the infamous one-inch punch have a purpose other than training the practitioner to generate explosive power, and that is denial of reaction time – by removing external, one denies an opponent intelligence on one’s next attack, meaning that one’s attack arrives unexpected, catching an opponent at his most vulnerable. Also, having the arm (or other attacking limb) already in position to make contact means that the structure for maximum delivery of power is secure and stable, as opposed to having to make numerous adjustments to compensate for having one’s arm bent and moving significantly at the joints as in a fully wound-up punch.

Again, the one-inch punch itself is largely irrelevant and a circus act. What is important is the underlying ability that allows one to generate such power at point-blank range, and even this is nothing special – it is merely a beginning in traditional Chinese styles. As an interesting aside, there are still plenty of martial artists who can provide excellent examples of such power – numerous exemplars of the internal styles still live on to this day and any one of them is well capable of such feats. Perhaps the one most publicly visible would be Chen-style taijiquan grandmaster Chen Xiaowang, known as a very good wrestler and fighter.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

confusingDot, no one except the people that practiced with him in Honk Kong knows how good Bruce’s technique was. That’s not the point. The fact that he hadn’t learned the third form yet means he hadn’t mastered the first two, and while he could probably have thrown a more powerful punch than Yip Man (or most people for that matter), there are other aspects to inch power that as it pertains to this discussion that must be refined and developed and that, from the videos I have seen of him, I do not believe he employed. You need to understand the difference between pushing someone back (not necessarily a bad thing), as demonstrated by Lee in the video where he knocks a guy over a chair (which, like dcohen said, is a parlor trick), and the penetrating, damaging power that most pracitioners of internal and semi-internal arts aim to develop. The differences are more complicated than something I want to explain over the internet, but essentially they’re the difference between taking a step back and perhaps staggering a bit before collapsing to the floor.

Whether or not you see what I’m saying, I’m afraid I’m not going to continue this discussion because it seems to be going nowhere and I really don’t have the time to type out the sort of response this topic deserves.>

Post: confusingDot:

“it appears you are comparing the potential striking force (not strength) of Bruce in his prime and Grandmaster Ip man in his later years. In his youth Grandmaster Ip man was known as a highly skilled and powerful exponent. ” hmmm i tottally agree. i’m sorry… it’s kinda funny how since i’ve only seen pictures of him as an old man that is how i pictured him from now till forever, never changing, and never ever being young. it’s kinda like picturing your grand parents when they were in elementary school. this part is more of a question since i have no knowledge of it. Did yip man’s training every come close to as extrordinary as bruce lee’s? this source i believe is credible, but who knows it may be too biased but www.bruceleedivinewind.com has lot of information on bruce lee’s feats, and how would be ALWAYS excercising, and how much he could do.

“I also believe that if Bruce had lived on his art would have returned to a more WC like manner, speaking mechanically.” In bruce lee’s search from wahtever worked, you believe he woudl have gone to wc… not maybe going into more grappling, like wrestling or bjj? also waht do you mean… speaking mechanically.

“no one except the people that practiced with him in Honk Kong knows how good Bruce’s technique was. ” THere are many videos of him practicng… plus hong kong was not the only place he practiced. So i believe there are sufficient times in order for wc practitioners to see how good or bad his technique was.

i must sya i’ve seen the video of lee doing the one inch punch… and did not notice the man pushing off hte gorund when landing in the chiar… but i have deleted the video and have not been able to see it again, now that i know what to look for. i ahve been searching to see it htough. i’m still searching. anyone got a link?

the dffereince in an attack pushing someone back, and trying to penetrate and harm only depend on the point of the most acceleration. in a push… most of the accelration is put into after contact. in penetrating it’s before you make contact. from the one inch punch there is very little time to accelerate before contact, so which occurs in a push. so if hte inch punch was extended to a foot punch it owuld have quite some penetrating power.

“Whether or not you see what I’m saying, I’m afraid I’m not going to continue this discussion because it seems to be going nowhere and I really don’t have the time to type out the sort of response this topic deserves.” i’m sorry… it’s alright… i just enjoy discussing topics as such, and yeah i do know how it tkaes up alot of time. but as to the fact of it going no hwere, i disagree. but as you owuld probably believe that this would go no where… i shall not even provide a deep explanaiton why.>

Post: 4:

as I remember the 1 inch punch is also used to to show that better tenicque is the key, not streangth relaxation is(also a key to BJJ).it also shows that proper energy flows in the body results in someone much smaller knocking over people much larger.>

Post: zefff:

Quote:
Did yip man’s training every come close to as extrordinary as bruce lee’s?

what where so extraordinary about Lee’s methods? He was born in ignorance and had to learn, just the same as all of us no? He initially learnt WC so his methods stem from that surely with additions and modifications along the way, just the same as we all train. If I never had a day job I would be “always training too”. I try but in an office you cant just sweat up the place. :oops:

There are loads of accounts of Grandmaster Yip man’s exploits. Here is one: http://www.wingchun.org/txt/misc/blossom2.html

Quote:
you believe he woudl have gone to wc… not maybe going into more grappling, like wrestling or bjj? also waht do you mean… speaking mechanically.

By “mechanically” I mean body mechanics. How the body moves when performing any feat to achieve a certain objective (punching a mans head for example – there are loads of ways to do this one thing). Depending on your body type, condition, state of health etc, etc and loads of other nuances at the particular time of execution, your method might differ from mine to achieve optimum results when hitting that head.

Although there must be a (“mechanically speaking”), most efficient and effective way to strike… because our physical and mental condition varies constantly and changes over time, I believe we must accomodate this with adjustment of our methods of execution.

I think Bruce Lee would have reverted to a more WC-like manner primarily because of economy of motion and energy conservation. I think those two points would have brought him back to a more square on stance too with use of all limbs climbing back up his list of importance. And yes controlling, locking and manipulation and even grappling may have moved up to rival or even eclipse striking. JKD is an art for life as I understand it and what everyone saw of it in Lee was honestly how he was best able to use his ability at that point in his life. We evolve throughout our lives.

If he was still doing JKD at 75 do you think he would be wasting all that energy with the types of punches and kicks he was advocating at the time he was 32? Would his JKD look the same? I think not.

Remember this is my opinion only and TBH Ive never studied JKD personally but I have read and enjoyed his books. :mrgreen: Feel free to flame if you believe Bruce was set in stone and not a man like the rest of us! :mrgreen:>

Post: confusingDot:

“what where so extraordinary about Lee’s methods? He was born in ignorance and had to learn, just the same as all of us no? He initially learnt WC so his methods stem from that surely with additions and modifications along the way, just the same as we all train. If I never had a day job I would be “always training too”. I try but in an office you cant just sweat up the place. ” you don’t think how he trianed was that great? did you even go to the site i provided… i guess i’ll just quote it then… now that it won’t let me cut and paste, i’ll paraphrase it… he would be watching a boxing match on tv, reading a book, doing the splits and pumping a dumbell at the same time (linda lee). Herb jackson the guy who made his equpiment said something like… he had to start using automible parts for the dummy, because he’d go through all of the equipment so quickly, and he even started making a dummy that would move so as to simulate live combat better, but he died before it was finished. Chuck norris said he sees bruce performing dumbell flyes, leg lifts, while at the same time boucing his son brandon on his abdomen. there is more about his feats on there, but i am only quoting the excercise parts. i know that you mgiht try and train as much as he did if you didn’t have a day job, i’m not syaing hta tyou would or wouldn’t, but i’m saying that he DID, plus he had the money to get all the things he wanted, and the connections to get it too. So that he could train to what he thought was the best.

i read the exploit of yip man’s. it doesn’t seem too great because i cannot actually judge how good the other opponenet was. plus it’s not something i can judge to say that lee would not be able to do the same. I can see the fight ending faster with bruce lee… but this is ONLY ONLY ONLY because of bruce’s more aggressive nature, nto because of physical attributes, or technique.

if bruce lee became 75 he might have modified his style to be more wc… who knows. but that would be because that would fit his 75 year old body the best. sicne he was not 75, he tried to make a style that fit his body the best. but that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t ahve added on many attributes taht would even be farther from wc. his horizons would be greatly widened, and when widening it, more of wc would be added. Even if his moves wasted more energy, he might still want to do the same moves becuase of the damage the move would do, so as to end the fight quicker, knowing that the longer the fight lasted the less endurance he’d have. I think it’s gonna be quite a hard argument to say whether wc or jfjkd has more economy of motion as well. i suggest we refrain from that area. IF you DO have good information in it htough… please do NOT hold it back, i am one who is in love with knowledge and information.

could you explain to me maybe how from any videos of bruce lee or other way shapes or forms how lee’s form… or lee’s form in wc was not good? i know there may not be… but i’m just aksing.

i am hopefully not flaming… and in no means do i believe bruce is set in stone… but i talk about bruce because he is who was known for the one inch punch, so who else is better to be used for the example. yes, ans this is only my opinion as well, and i enjoy comparing our two. bruce was a man, and a man can be extraordinary, but also you must know, he is no idol of mine, i have heard it many times that he used drugs (most likely to enhance his performance), and also that electric shock thing, which i both consider cheating. It seems he led a narrow minded life, for fame, and to be the best martial artist. which i do not like. but it is because he led this narrow minded life, that he went very far in those areas, and i try and take anything that is true and good outu of it, so i may progress, and help others progress.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

ConfusingDot I’m sorry but you appear to know nothing about Wing Chun. If you want to discuss aspects of it and compare Yip Man and Bruce Lee you need to start at a more basic level so you can better understand what it is you’re talking about. If that sounds mean I don’t intend it to be, and I’m sorry, but it’s the truth. You might start here: http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_brucelee1.html. Actually, it would be nice if everyone who thinks Bruce Lee was perfecting Wing Chun would read that.>

Post: superjim:

I just finished reading the article and it was great, everyone whose interested in Bruce Lee, Jeet Kune Do or Wing Chun should really read it. It was kind of a wake up call, reminded me of a lot of things that I was starting to forget about. Definately a great read…>

Post: confusingDot:

i shall read hte article… and i will nto take it as an insult sinc eyou say it isn’t. i’ll post soemthing after reading though, i’m pretty usre.>

Post: graham1:

[quote=monkeypalm [quote=Kinjo  Even if I knew the technique I’d rather do a groinkick or a palm strike to either the throat or nose but that would all depend on how close to the guy I would be.

/Kinjo[/quote 

groinkick / palm strike? the principle behind the one inch punch can be applied to both of these, in fact any attack. swap the punch for a palm, jab, knife hand, whatever. swap it for a kick, knee, elbow… its close range power generation.

evilscott…

Quote:
I doubt doubt you, but I’m curious: how you you shown it?

hehe i think you mean dont doubt you? ;) )i hope so anyway!)

well, you said :

Quote:
The way I was taught you have your dead weight arm locked in position, you drop your weight and twist shooting your arm forward

the reason i would do it differently is as follows. perhaps it could be a question of semantics or terminology, but i dont like the words ‘locked in.’
i am a skinny guy. (see my photo album!). if i locked my arm and dropped my bodyweight into someone, most likely i will bounce off. like a mini cooper smashing into a 3 ton truck, im going to come out worst off. the way ive been shown it, or rather what i have picked up, is that its more a question of relaxation, structure and focus.

its really a relaxed structure which will help you to generate power. as you do the punch, as your fist makes contact, the resistance met needs to go somewhere. if im locked in, it will go straight back into my body, bouncing me off. however if i am relaxed and have a good structure, the resistance will pass through my relaxed muscles and joints to the ground. once the incoming resistance is neutralised, then you can use your focus to drive the fist into the target. the more relaxed and focused you are, the more you can throw around people stronger than you without adversely affecting your own balance / centre of gravity. urm… its not to great a description but hey, i hope you know where im coming from… :)[/quote 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

That’s an excellent description!>

Post: monkeypalm:

Ta very much!

I have been slowly but surely practicing my punches everyday.

Now, I am at the stage where I can punch a hanging sandbag (MAN those things are tough) and feel no equal and opposite reaction in my body. This is cool, because I can now punch with a lot of force without it affecting my balance at all.

:)>

Post: Blade:

I just have to say it.
nothing you mentioned comes as close to putting all these theories and concepts to work like wingchun does, people may speak of it, but little apply it to the full if any.
boxing or bjj has nothing close to wingchun when talking about inch power and other theories wingchun puts into practice.>

Post: DARKTIM:

takes ages to master. and alot of hard work. once you do it you have to keep doing it. as if you dont you can lose it. constant practise.

its all about pure 100% body machanics. double hip twist. body twist arm thrust from a shoulder thrust. footwork. you have to brig it all together. its hard very hard.

DT>

Post: monkeypalm:

Who are you talking to there Blade?>

Post: Blade:

some people mentioned the principle in other arts, was talking to them ,and in general.>

Post: dcohen:

[quote=DARKTIM takes ages to master. and alot of hard work. once you do it you have to keep doing it. as if you dont you can lose it. constant practise.

its all about pure 100% body machanics. double hip twist. body twist arm thrust from a shoulder thrust. footwork. you have to brig it all together. its hard very hard.

DT[/quote 

Wondering where all the martial artists went? Those elusive “regulars” who stopped showing up? Who simply seemed to “fade out?” There’s too many of these posts. The topic has been explained in relative depth by competent people in the past 4 pages of this thread. There is absolutely NO reason for anyone to come on here with a post like this, OBVIOUSLY not having read the rest of the thread.

Since I quoted “darktim”‘s post, I might as well go through it, for the sake of completeness.

1. Footwork is a non-issue in one-inch and no-inch punches, unless you count loading a hip with tension before releasing it. This is arguably footwork, but I only know of two martial systems which utilize this kind of footwork, so I’m guessing it’s a moot point to most people on this board who simply want to understand how to hit people very, very hard from a very, very small distance. Loading the hips is not the kind of one/no-inch punch I’m describing here, though you can do it about a million different ways. Most of them are simple.

2. Learning the one/no-inch punch takes around a half hour at the most. Finding places to apply it during sparring is ridiculously easy, as you can basically start using it the second you understand it and can generate the power. Personally, I learned to do it something like a year ago, and sometimes the time I go between using it in sparring borders on 4 months. Don’t come in here with information that you make up.

3. For the sake of completeness, again, here’s a simple rundown of how to do a basic version of the one/no-inch punch:

-Start standing perpendicular to your target. Put your palm onto their chest, for starters. Your arm will be comfortably bent, relaxed, and not doing ANYTHING but resting on their chest.
-Slowly, just to feel the motion, make a circle with your elbow. Down and towards your body, then up and out.
-Slowly again, just to feel the motion, make a circle with your shoulder and add it to the circle your elbow is making; down and in, and then circling up and out of the joint.
-When you can comfortably do this motion, do it fast and relaxed, letting your hand spiral into and through the target. Interesting response, huh? And you didn’t even use a lot of “power.”

Once you start propelling people a moderate distance (5+ feet), start adding in more joints on the side you are hitting with…hips, knees, ankles…then the cooler stuff, but that’s not in the scope of this baby’s-eye-view.

Do this BEFORE watching videos of Bruce Lee doing it. Bruce cheated by putting a chair under the person’s rear triangulation point so they fell over when they try to take a step back to regain their balance. You should be able to propel people MUCH farther than he could, WITHOUT a chair (provided you’re in the same “demonstration” setting…using the maximum amount of power in a sparring situation is stupid, because you don’t want to shoot the other person out of your reach…you want to hurt them and break their form so you can make them run into a bunch of othe painful things).

Not much I’ve said here should be news. Christ, I’m one of the young ones here, I’m amazed no one has come with some serious flames yet – at least read the thread before you make a post like Dark Tim’s here…

Damn…

-Dave>

Post: scaramouche:

[quote=Blade You dont need to be close to your opponent to do a one inch punch.
a one inch punch doesnt mean you and your target are an inch away from eachother, it means your knuckles could hit that person with good force if they were one inch from it. it is there to save movement, so that you can attack without cocking back \ gathering momentum to recieve force in your punch. you seem to have gotten the wrong idea that the one inch punch is substitute for close range strikes.[/quote 

Yeah I was scratching my head too about the comments about having to be close . . . this can be done multiple times with an almost extended arm with a fist that is right up against the target. It’s also great for busting up clinches.>

Post: confusingDot:

woah, i forgot about his post. as for bruce lee perfecting wing chun, he probably was, as most people probably are. if wing chun is suppose to be taken as an alive art, which can change and grow, just as bruce lee’s theory for jkd was, hten he was, as everyone is. i guess jkd cannot be considered different from wing chun except for the starting basics that people might learn. i’m truly sorry, but i don’t feel like going back and reading up on how everything esle started.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

JKD is not Wing Chun. JKD can be just about anything covering itself in the same huge blanket of “We do what works!”. Surprise, so do I. And, no, I don’t think it’s right to try to perfect something when you can’t do what’s already known perfectly. It’s all well and good to adapt things so they work better for yourself, but I really don’t like people who “modify” something and then teach that version to students who don’t know any better.

I don’t dislike JKD, but sometimes I feel like they’re a couple steps away from going door to door with pamphlets.>

Post: confusingDot:

Wing chun i believed (you can prove me wron if you wish, but i KNOW that i heard it from a wing chun man, but tehy may be wrong as well) was “we do waht works”, and so was jkd. IF that is the same, then the only thing that is different is the starting point.

i disagree “don’t think it’s right to try to perfect something when you can’t do what’s already known perfectly”. Along the path ot becoming perfect at something, you may already realize a fault in it. Why would you continue working on something with a fault IF you have the view to try and come as close to perfect as possible. After realizing the fault, should you not try and fix the fault, which WOULD lead you down another path? And if you were to remian on the path you begun on, that it would lead you away from the correct destination? why continue along the path that is wrong?

I understand taht there are situations in which you should jsut perfect what you ahve because you may not be GOOD at finding the other correct path. And since this is nothing as important in life, that it should be best to just follow along the path that is already known. What i say is that there should be no blatant statement such as “I don’t think it’s right to try to perfect something when you can’t do what’s already known perfectly”, because there are TIMES ALREADY shown, which disprove that statement.

“I really don’t like people who “modify” something and then teach that version to students who don’t know any better. ” Are you saying that jkd was not a try to improve wing chun (notice that i dont’ want to get into an argumetn about which one has a better starting point. ). I DO NOT know whether it was or wasn’t. I DO believe taht Bruce Lee wrongly (wrongly is only my opinion, don’t ahve ot argue that either) tried to always get as much attention as he could, and that he may or may not have used jkd only for that purpose. I don’t like it if he had tried ot make jkd for only personal gain. But you are now dissing the maker rather then the creation. jkd concepts studios now a days should no longer resemble wing chun as it did back when bruce lee was still alive, because the concepts were suppose ot allow jkd to grow and change. jkd allowed for the concept of a growing art to return more, such as you do not hear of too many wing chun growing arts. It has become more of a traditional art, just as jkd is turning into one as well (i.e. jfjkd). Like i THink have said before. i would rather say i DO kinesiology+physics (kinematics)+physiology+psychology(a little bit) equaling fighting.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Of course in Wing Chun we do what works. Is there a martial art out there that specifically does things that don’t? If I were to tell you that in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu they also do what works, would you say that it is also the same as JKD and Wing Chun both? The problem is, in Wing Chun there are things that are NOT easy to do at first. They require practice and patience so that you can do them correctly, because they are not in accordance with how you normally move your body. Similarly, there are layers upon layers of possibilities for each technique, situation, or idea. It’s simply not possible to study it for two years and improve it, because you don’t even know the material that you’re trying to improve.

JKD may have been an attempt to improve Wing Chun. It also may have been the end result of Lee’s frustration at not being able to finish learning Wing Chun. There’s nothing wrong with studying other arts to fill in gaps in your training when you aren’t able to finish learning what you’d like to. What doesn’t make sense is to afterwards claim that you have somehow improved on what was already there.

Studying Wing Chun for a couple of years and then going out and trying to fix what you perceive as flaws in it is like deciding during linear algebra that there is something wrong with mathematics and going off to find a better way to solve problems. If you instead stuck with it and kept learning, you’d almost certainly eventually realize that the problems you thought were there were just the result of you not properly understanding how to use the tools at your disposal. Likewise, “fixing” Wing Chun by adding groundfighting techniques or weapons work would be like “fixing” algebra by adding a study of language or history. It doesn’t make the math any better; it just makes you more well-rounded as a student.>

Post: monkeypalm:

Amen to that brother.>

Post: TigerPaw:

http://www.hawkinscheung.com/html/hcarticle4.htm

Although I believe if I change the 4 to a 1.. I have the first page.. (My magic power of deduction at work..)

http://www.hawkinscheung.com/html/hcarticle1.htm
It’s a nice story about bruce lee and his view\life in martial arts.>

Post: confusingDot:

“Is there a martial art out there that specifically does things that don’t?” Of course not, but there are the ones without the mentality of “We do what works”. THey will not change anything if htey notice it isn’t working.

There are martial arts who do not wish to use what is usefull,a nd throw away what is useless. They do not wish to make any changes. You CAN see when they ahve this mentality or not. I know that are jkd and wc which are in this category, and there are jkd and wc which are in the other category.

and hwen i talked about switching paths for when you notice a fault. I MEANT WHEN YOU notice a fault. Not when it’s just not working.

“JKD may have been an attempt to improve Wing Chun. It also may have been the end result of Lee’s frustration at not being able to finish learning Wing Chun. There’s nothing wrong with studying other arts to fill in gaps in your training when you aren’t able to finish learning what you’d like to. What doesn’t make sense is to afterwards claim that you have somehow improved on what was already there. ” Like i said before, you are now dissing bruce lee. I do NOT know bruce lee, but i have heard a great many things i dislike about him. The art is NOT it’s creator. you get that? The art of jkd you have seemed to have already come to the conclusion to is not an improvement to wc. Now you are getting into which art is better. I am Not arguing which one is better.

“Studying Wing Chun for a couple of years and then going out and trying to fix what you perceive as flaws in it is like deciding during linear algebra that there is something wrong with mathematics and going off to find a better way to solve problems. ” In this example you claim that Wing Chun to already be something without any flaws. IF linear algebra has flaws, then why believe in it. You are trying to uphold wc by comparing it to somehting iwthout flaws. You try to make it out ot be soemthing that is perfect in all perfections, and above all other martial arts. Which i would disagree with. Why not compare wc to something like building a house. Before you finish building the house (using all knowledg eyou ahve from other people), you notice a fault in it, that a beam that everyone told you would work, does not, before you finsih building that house, you might want ot change and replace taht beam for soemthing else, you might even have to tear stuff down to put in the correct thing needed. People may have told you that wc is the ultimate house, but I cannot agree or disagree. But i do KNOW that if i am to find out taht a beam or soemthing else does nto work in wc, then i’m not going to hold myself back from finding another path. I am one to say that wc does work as a house, but that i do not believe it is yet the ultimate.

summary. I”m not arguing which art is better. I’m not arguing waht BL’s thoughts and intents were when making jkd. I AM arguing that wc probably is not the ultimate house, and that if changes need to be made, then that they should be made.>

Post: zefff:

JKD same as any art should be, is not about the system, it is about the man. WC does or rather should allow for change. What Ive noticed is that in WC there is not a lot of things to learn. As Ive gotten better I use less and less. As I get better I move less and less. As I get better I use less and less energy in sparring…or at least I can choose to. I personally am not learning WC. I am using WC to learn about myself and my relation to others. Inch power is a part of that but is still not that important. Consider that sometimes the changes made to our heart and mind can be the most prolific rather than those to technique alone.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

ConfusingDOT, before this goes any further, would you please structure your posts so that they’re not such a pain in the ass to read?

There is no practical martial art with techniques that don’t work. There are ones that would be stupid to use in a fight because some people can’t pull them off, but it’s up to the practitioner to use the techniques that work for them. If you don’t do this, or if you know people that don’t, then that’s their problem and the art isn’t at fault.

If you’ll notice, I never said that Wing Chun is “better” than JKD. I also never said anything bad about Bruce Lee. You’re the one who somehow misinterpreted my posts, so don’t patronize me when you’re the one with reading comprehension issues.

Wing Chun is not perfect. There is no “perfect” art. It is, however, essentially flawless. It isn’t a complete art, but there aren’t any techniques in it that wouldn’t work. I can think of ONE technique out of the three forms that I would say would be a bad idea to use, but only because it leaves you vulnerable. In other words: I wouldn’t use it. Other people might, or I might not understand the right application for it.

Here’s the part you don’t seem to understand. I’m not saying Wing Chun is the best art. I’m saying there’s nothing wrong with it. There’s also nothing wrong with boxing, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, Judo, Bak Mei, Jeet Kune Do, ad infinitum.

You can go on believing that Wing Chun has bad beams in it somewhere (to use your house analogy), but I’ll go on knowing that it keeps rain out perfectly, is large enough to live in comfortably, doesn’t have any areas that would be easy to break into, and is painted in a nice color. It may not have a garage or a swimming pool, but those aren’t difficult to add in and aren’t worth selling the house for.>

Post: confusingDot:

you know, i must apologize, i shall try and make my posts more comprehensible, and also that i think that i get too adamant about such topics, and begin to assume things from others. I must also say that i’ll check over my posts more just to see that they are comprehensible, although i cna’t say for sure what makes them confusing.

i do believe that there have been alot of off tangents, and I guess that we already agree on what it is that we’re talking about, whether we even use ot oppose each other in the beginning. conclusion… (unless disagreed, then i’ll be sure to talk about what is disagreed) If changes need to be made to a MA, then that they should be made. Whether it be modifying, adding, or taking away a technique for your body type, attitude, abilities, and disabilities.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I agree you should change things to fit your preferences, but the important distinction I’m trying to make is that change doesn’t necessarily equal better. Even though it may work better for you, there are always reasons that it was the other way before, and there are always people who can perform the unmodified move better than you can perform your version. Chances are at some point you’ll at least partially regress to the other method.

What I meant by “less confusing” is that you mix in quoted stuff with your posts and don’t use paragraphs or quote tags.>

Post: confusingDot:

ok, i’ll try to seperate everything better.

i’m curious about the:
“there are always reasons that it was the other way before”
Do you mean Good reasons as to why it was the other way before (also in the context of being usuable/best move/ option for the situation in a street fight)? Do you mean that it should have never been changed in the first place?

It seems as though you are pointing to… but not wanting to fully say:
“You can change the techniques, but the way they teach you in the beggining will always be the more applicable one”
is that true? This is ONLY what it seems to me. It seems as though alot of your posts are alluding to alot of things, but not fully taking a stand on them. ONLY SEEMS. i definately could be wrong.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Arts are more than just the sum of their parts. There’s a reason you don’t see Wing Chun people throwing boxing jabs or using tomoe nagae; they’re good moves but they just don’t fit with the rest of the system, and unless you change some fundamental things about it or are a genius beyond what I think anyone on this board is, they probably never will. (You can also switch between arts at different ranges, but at that point you’re not doing one art, you’re doing MMA, which is fine but an entirely different subject.) You might be able to use them, but there will always be “pure” fighters who are better than you because they can use all of the system to their benefit. The other possibility is that you are a better fighter but have changed some basic things, in which case you have formed an entirely new style which suits you better as a fighter. This isn’t an improvement, it’s your creation. You can freely teach it to other people, but it would be fraud to sell it as an “improvement” on the other style, since it’s not the other style, except in perhaps a few concepts and moves. Wouldn’t it be annoying if all of your students then went out and started selling it as something created by divine intervention, praised you like you were Jesus, and looked down on those who didn’t practice your art? Oh, wait… :wink:>

Post: confusingDot:

hmmm… I’m kinda thinking in the pattern that every person actually DOES have thier own style. I guess there is a point taht must be passed in which you are now able to call it your own. But the thing is I always had it in mind that he was not trying “teach” wing chun, mixed with other arts, but rather the concept of his famous saying of “Way of no way”, and taking away what doesn’t work, and using what works. I am not even saying he was GOOD at teaching it, but rather, that is waht his style “of no style” was. I’m sure you ahve heard thousands of people keep on saying somehting like “Bruce regretted using the name jkd, because people had a view of it he didn’t want”. style of no style. This is waht he tuaght… not wing chun + other MAs. If you were to take out all the wing chun moves, it would still be jkd. he believed taht you COULD change things about other martial arts to suit you to make it actually work better for you.

“Arts are more than just the sum of their parts. ”
What is an art then? Is it the sum of only the fundamentals? What are the fundamental components that do make up a style? it cannot be how they do a belt system, i do not believe. I believe all the moves that hey do are fundamental.

“The other possibility is that you are a better fighter but have changed some basic things, in which case you have formed an entirely new style which suits you better as a fighter. This isn’t an improvement, it’s your creation. “
it actually is an improvement, and a style should be able to accomodate the needs of a student. So that if they were to add that new change into the style, and say that this works for “this” type of student in “htis” type of situation. But the problem is that many styles won’t.

“in which case you have formed an entirely new style which suits you better as a fighter”

“You might be able to use them, but there will always be “pure” fighters who are better than you because they can use all of the system to their benefit. “
I must deny this claim as i have had experiences with sparring with “pure” fighters. two pure kempos, and one pure tae kwon do, no mixing to my knowledge. simple take down (wrestling), then simple vertical fisted punches while on ground (no way to say waht style this is… just a mix). plus my punches are my own concauction (sp), so how am i to say what style they are.

“genius beyond what I think anyone on this board is”
why do you have to be a genius to add moves of one style to another? I’ve easily accomodated wrestling (my mother art) to bjj. are they not two styles, or is one a copy of the other. as i have also accomodated punches (my own kind) to ground play in wrestling/bjj.

i once again think a summary is needed. For my thinking… anyone’s style is just thier own style, not the style of thier sensei’s, but they DO STUDY (a) style(s). JKD is a concept (jfjkd not to be mixed up with jkd). and you can mix styles easily together, and add somehting of your own with it easily, and if it’s an improvement for you, then it’s an improvment for others like you. so then it hsould either be added to the style, or brought to a jkd place, or maybe even formed as another style (how else would it be taught).>

Post: Gong||Jau:

You know what? I don’t even give a f@ck anymore. You’re right; I’m wrong. I guess I’ll go leave my Wing Chun training now since there are obviously things wrong with it and go mix wrestling and BJJ and learn to punch… oh, wait, I’ve already done all of that and I STILL call it Wing Chun.>

Post: confusingDot:

“We’re not enemies, we just disagree[d “. i hope you do not hate in any way. it was nice talking with you about this.>

Post: zefff:

Funnily enuff. Wing Chun itself was actually modified by Grand master Yip man with Wong Shen Leung’s help after disecting the outcomes of many streetfights and grudge matches.

Also…I myself use a boxing jab quite often! 8) :mrgreen:

peace bros!>

Post: confusingDot:

wow, i didn’t know that. do you mind if i ask where you got that info from? and i’m also interested in how you modified the jab.>

Post: monkeypalm:

In the Ip Man centenary birth book, it talks of how Ip Man with his technical / physics oriented mind discarded the old theories of five elements and various other arcane chinese mystic stuff which was in mainland wing chun and instead concentrated on more realistic explanations and applications. It would not surprise me to hear that he changed it further as he went along. But I am sure he changed it for the better, just as we must, if we feel we should, and only after long, hard consideration and training.

Not that much though. :)

PErsonally, I care about whether or not it works, not how well I can emulate my teacher. Funny thing is though, when I am doing it correctly, turns out I am doing it like my sifu! ;)>

Post: Ninja Kl0wn:

confusingDot, one day you will wake up and ask yourself “why am I argueing over what JKD is?” That day, you will realize that it’s all just “fighting”, and it really doesn’t matter what the fuck you call it because the words have no meaning other than what you give them. I could say my martial art is Fuggyfofa Houliongxia Thiba Chuan, and it wouldn’t change a damn thing.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

[quote=monkeypalm PErsonally, I care about whether or not it works, not how well I can emulate my teacher. Funny thing is though, when I am doing it correctly, turns out I am doing it like my sifu! ;)[/quote 

Exactly. That, and Ip Man was slightly more qualified to modify Wing Chun than most people :wink:>

Post: confusingDot:

“confusingDot, one day you will wake up and ask yourself ‘why am I argueing over what JKD is?’ That day, you will realize that it’s all just “fighting”, and it really doesn’t matter what the fuck you call it because the words have no meaning other than what you give them. I could say my martial art is Fuggyfofa Houliongxia Thiba Chuan, and it wouldn’t change a damn thing.”

i think that i have already asked myself that question. Yes, i don’t really care about the name, but WHAT it is, and how it should be done. as said by me before:
“i would rather say i DO kinesiology+physics (kinematics)+physiology+psychology(a little bit) equaling fighting.”
Which i believe are the components of fighting, not just the name (if i’m missing a component i’m sorry, my goal wasn’t actually to try and name all of them, but to just to help understand taht i cared about the components rather then the name) (if you notice a missing component, then i wouldn’t mind knowing either). To advance and improve in training and technique. whoever said that i cared about the name? i do NOT care about the name. I do NOT care about the founder. when it comes to fighting, I only care what works. i do not know how you came to believe that i cared about the name.>

Post: zefff:

[quote=confusingDot wow, i didn’t know that. do you mind if i ask where you got that info from? and i’m also interested in how you modified the jab.[/quote 

it is well known. Please excuse my innaccuracy as Im not a scholar or historian type but, Yip man IIRC, was taught by two Sifu, two variants of Wing Chun that were running parrellel but in dispute of one another. So he was the single man who held the knowledge to unite both ideologies. Once he had the knowledge he investigated and researched it all thoroughly and continuously throughout his lifetime. Do a quick search for ‘Yip man wing chun family tree’ and that should bring up some info for you.

As for my jab. I am not only a Wing Chun Student, I am a Panantukan boxer as well so am influenced by my training. I have a few different types of straight lead punch that I have worked on and developed over time. I deploy any variant at anytime without thought. I have about 4 or 5 vertical fist types, 3 or 4 horizontal types and even a couple where my fist is at a 45 degree angle. I am comfortable with them and can generate good power so I continue to use them. They all have their own benefits and downsides. How did I develop them? Pad and bag work!>

Post: confusingDot:

WOW, dude that is a ton of punches for just a straight lead. do you think you could pm me (or write it here) how it is that each one differs.>

Post: zefff:

that would be a lot of work. :mrgreen: maybe I will start another thread about it but Im sure they are nothing new, its just that I analysed and disected my punching very early on in my training and divided up my observations into categories.

Im sure most people have varying ways of delivering the same punches but some probably didnt see a need to waste time and effort categorising them. :mrgreen:

I felt the need to work hard on mine with focus pads and mirror work etc cos I wanted a lead punch that could K.O. with.>

Post: dikdirkin:

you guys have summed it up mostly, its just about developing short distance power for quickness of attack>

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