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Really bad Kung Fu?

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Really bad Kung Fu?
Original Poster: 8LimbsScientist
Forum: Kung Fu Styles, Chinese Martial Arts
Posted On: 22-06-2005, 01:19

Orginal Post: 8LimbsScientist: http://users.1st.net/abaddon/kfo/wcvsmantissparring.wmv

Check this out. Am I missing something or do these guys suck? I think it would be better for either of these guys if they never trained and just brawled.

Note: This isn’t a CMA insult…rather this clip is an insult to CMAs…if you understand what I’m saying.

Post: …formless…:

Sadly, you aren’t missing anything at all. Those guys are pretty horrible. Seeing this kind of thing just reminds me of how grim the CMA situation is today. Finding quality instruction is unbelievably difficult.

I couldn’t agree more, this footage is an insult to CMAs>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

“Are you ok, are you ok?”

I felt like saying, “Hell yes he’s ok, you guys couldn’t hurt each other if you tried.”>

Post: …formless…:

Yeah I found that to be especially funny…the moment they engage each other in the slightest they have to quickly follow it up by stopping, apologizing, and asking eachother if they’re ok.

I also really liked all the high fives they gave each other while sparring. Thats a smashing idea, think I’ll try that myself. Instead of actually trying to do anything I’ll just try and move around a lot while occasionally stepping forward to slap someones hand, only to quickly dart back and switch stances back and forth a couple times for no good reason. Damn, all the kids are gonna want skills like me.>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Dear Lord.

What was with the trippy music in the background? Did someone actually provide a soundtrack for the sparring?

I could barely even tell which guy was using which style. Sadder still was that it actually got better when they switched to using bad sanda-style fighting (still with lots of hand-slapping and snappy stance-changing). Well…at least they were bothering to spar at all, which is more than I can say for some schools. Now if only someone would show them what they’re doing wrong…>

Post: Oa3k:

the wing chun guy was the guy in the white shirt right?? I felt he dominated the majority of the fight>

Post: sheato:

What fight?>

Post: Bushi:

I could not watch the whole thing.

horrible>

Post: Gong||Jau:

You know it’s pathetic when you can’t even tell what style it is. This has disgusted me :evil:.>

Post: zefff:

They were obviously playing lightly but WTF is that shit about reaching for the lead hand. Ive come across WC people like b4 and they are usually always really shit at free-sparring. They were static as feck too. They need to get some pads on IMO.>

Post: Umy:

I can honestly say ive seen defensive drills at the gym where more agression and technique was used :?

As for the continuous ‘Are you okay?’, i understand the need to be concerned for the wellbeing of your sparring partners but we must take into account that you may actually get hit in sparring :lol:>

Post: Umy:

Just out of interest does anybody have any links to real kung fu sparring?>

Post: zefff:

interestingly enough, no. Now what does that tell ya?>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

That sounds suspiciously like CMA smack talk, and I thought you were a CMA practicioner?>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

this sparring drill made me nearly fall off my chair. I had to watch it 2wice until I realized that this wasn’t kung fu. It was some sort of dance ritual.>

Post: MA dude:

[quote=0o~KiNg*UmY~o0 Just out of interest does anybody have any links to real kung fu sparring?[/quote 
I have some links to good schools. Here is one link https://maxvps001.maximumasp.com/v001u23zac/Tao/Index2.asp The person used to be a HTH instructor to airborne troops. If you are interested in more websites just say so.>

Post: Blade:

Actually im with zeff on this you prolly wont find any because there arent any or they are just too embaracing like this one which actually got published hehe.
My instructor has a cd of training from vietnam (in wingchun) i think theres some sparring in there among other things, il try to get it here>

Post: Oa3k:

I thought it was pretty good…i don’t see while you all should be so quick to criticize as i doubt all of you would put up a better sparring contest>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

If you can’t recognize this video as horrible sparring, you aren’t qualified to judge how good we could do.>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

http://rooftop.ho8.com/video.html
http://www.garylamwingchun.com/
http://www.wingchun.hk.com/footage_set_4.htm

Here’re some links to clips and info on Gary Lam – best damn Wing Chun I’ve personally seen thus far (as opposed to merely heard of) – and also Richard Ng’s Wing Chun in Hong Kong. The students in the black singlets are HK SWAT team members.

http://atom-gp8.nucl.nagoya-u.ac.jp/bajimen-cgi/bajimen_page.cgi?

There’s an English-language mirror of the site (link accessible at the top left-hand corner of the page, under the heading). This is the Jifeng Martial Arts Association run by students of Liu Yunqiao’s lineage of instruction and they specialise in Bajiquan, Piguazhang, Six Harmonies Mantis and Baguazhang. These are videos from their spearfighting training and tournaments.>

Post: …formless…:

[quote=Oa3k I thought it was pretty good…i don’t see while you all should be so quick to criticize as i doubt all of you would put up a better sparring contest[/quote 

Oa3k, you just had your first kung fu class a little over a month ago. How exactly is it possible that you’d know whether this clip was good or not?By what possible criteria have you determined this clip to be good? Honestly, I’d love to hear because from what I saw there was nothing good about the guys in that footage. Nothing. I couldn’t even finish it for godsakes.

I’m gonna do everything I can to get my hands on some quality kung fu footage that hopefully includes sparring amongst proficient students. Then maybe people will be able to get these disgusting images out of their heads and let go of the weak-sauce stigma that marks nearly all CMAs today. *shudders*>

Post: zefff:

[quote=8LimbsScientist That sounds suspiciously like CMA smack talk, and I thought you were a CMA practicioner?[/quote 

Yeah you are right! :lol: I am always dissin everybody in my class to make them want to hurt me in sparring. Better that than to be conditioned for pat-a-cake like those dudes.>

Post: Oa3k:

[quote=…formless… [quote=Oa3k I thought it was pretty good…i don’t see while you all should be so quick to criticize as i doubt all of you would put up a better sparring contest[/quote 

Oa3k, you just had your first kung fu class a little over a month ago. How exactly is it possible that you’d know whether this clip was good or not?By what possible criteria have you determined this clip to be good? Honestly, I’d love to hear because from what I saw there was nothing good about the guys in that footage. Nothing. I couldn’t even finish it for godsakes.

I’m gonna do everything I can to get my hands on some quality kung fu footage that hopefully includes sparring amongst proficient students. Then maybe people will be able to get these disgusting images out of their heads and let go of the weak-sauce stigma that marks nearly all CMAs today. *shudders*[/quote 

Had my first kung fu class in a particular style, not my my first kung fu class and certainly not my first martial arts class. I know alot about martial arts so I can provide a decent analysis of what I saw in that clip and I have determined it to be a good clip. Maybe until you all prove you can do better than you shouldn’t talk down on it.>

Post: bamboo:

I don’t do any kung fu (big suprise :shock: ) but I will certainly tell you why I found it to be lacking.

1. Most strikes were delivered with the strikers head pulled back, no commitment, it made them seem very unsure.

2. As soon as white shirt rushed blue pants the first time, blue pants should have learned his lesson and covered that opening, instead, white shirt kept entering at the same spot. Had white shirt had been a grappler, blue pants would not have been bulled over but quickly taken down every time, he offered his arm and shoulder every time.

3. Flashy kicks into dead space.

4. Looked like tag

Maybe it was their first time ever sparring?

Just my thoughts….

Bamboo>

Post: sheato:

Yeah, but…
I left my first sparring match with two black eyes and the other guy on the floor holding his ribs with a bloody nose. (Granted it was just two whitebelts trying to see what they could do. Looking back, it wasn’t sparring, just fighting.) In this video, there seemed to be NO passion. No action, no commitment.

Just my two cents.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

[quote=Oa3k Had my first kung fu class in a particular style, not my my first kung fu class and certainly not my first martial arts class. I know alot about martial arts so I can provide a decent analysis of what I saw in that clip and I have determined it to be a good clip. Maybe until you all prove you can do better than you shouldn’t talk down on it.[/quote 

Perhaps instead of asking us to go out of our way to videotape ourselves so that you can watch it and judge our sparring, you could explain what you saw in the clip that you believed was “good”. Several people have already explained what is wrong with it, so maybe instead of asking us to trust that you “know alot about martial arts”, you should prove it by telling us what we’re all missing.>

Post: …formless…:

[quote=Oa3k Had my first kung fu class in a particular style, not my my first kung fu class and certainly not my first martial arts class. I know alot about martial arts so I can provide a decent analysis of what I saw in that clip and I have determined it to be a good clip. Maybe until you all prove you can do better than you shouldn’t talk down on it.[/quote 

So….wheres the analysis then?>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

Oak dude, This IS not sparring. We dont critisize because we have a better than thou attitude. It is because we have done or at the very least seen better. This was a flamboyant slap fest to say the least. If the earth was attacked by a giant wrist then and only then would I call white shirt to protect me. I’m sure these two guys could spar better, they were probably caught on an off day. Then again they chose to post this on the internet so my guess………it’s their best stuff.>

Post: dscott:

Nice clips Wilhelm. I thought all of them were good except the one “night chi sau” from this link – http://rooftop.ho8.com/video.html>

Post: zefff:

yes they were good clips, but I didnt see any free sparring. Mind you I didnt look through the lot yet. It does appear that the partners of Sifu Lam are not trying to impose themselves on him though. But I can understand why these types of vids never get posted.

I just enjoyed a few of the Marvin vs Kwan clips and they are sparring!…kind of. :roll:

The biggest hole in the WC vs PM clip was the fact that even though they may have just been working with zero contact, there was no brain power used or mental assertion. No matter what limited rules one might spar under, I think its good to always try to upset the opponents will and hopefully performance. The two dudes in the vid had a cooperative mental attitude and what made me annoyed was when one started kicking, the other would kick back and so they would remain in that safe range – kicking the air beside each others ears until one would think it safe enough to enter (softly).

What also bothered me was when the WC man got his opponent on the ground why didnt he continue to punch the PM man’s head in? If you spar like that you will fight like that IMHO. There was no attitude in their game.>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

[quote=zefff If you spar like that you will fight like that IMHO.[/quote 

If so, then I guess if the PM guy ever got in a real fight, he’d caress his opponents face like a lover everytime he knocked him down.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I doubt he’d ever get a knockdown; holding your opponent around the waist and running in circles isn’t particularly conducive to taking people to the ground. My biggest gripe was the way they kept touching each other’s hands like that. Not only did it look stupid, but they could have at least tried to step inside or something instead of just sitting there and then retracting their hands.>

Post: zefff:

seeking the bridge can become so much of a habit that the easiest routes to the target are forgotten and overlooked or avoided because of fear. Punching the dude in his head is what its all about, or should, be I believe. The rest is just bolt on bits.>

Post: sanshou2:

heres sum stuff from the world wushu championships
http://www.sanshou.com/footage/2003clip.html>

Post: zefff:

HURRAY!!!! some kungfu with contact! the 2 K.O.s at the end were cool. The black guy got KTFO bigtime! Hands up guy! :mrgreen: Does it look like kungfu though?>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

Well, what is Kung Fu anyway? There are so many styles that vary so much. I mean, doesn’t Bagua look different compared to Wing Chun? I know that basically San Shou looks like kickboxing + judo, but many styles of kung fu use San Shou as their competitive full contact outlet, and I’m sure concepts from their style of San Shou show through. I dunno, I never studied Kung Fu.

I do like San Shou though…>

Post: Oa3k:

Perhaps the sparring clip might have been a light spar where they were just trying to feel each other out. May not have been 100% engaging in which you all assume it to be.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I gathered that it was light sparring from the fact that they weren’t hitting with enough force to kill a fly. That still doesn’t explain the kicks, the stance switching, the slap fests, the running around in circles with their arms around the other guy’s waist, or the lack of any resemblance to the styles they’re supposed to be using.>

Post: dikdirkin:

that was woeful. i train wing chun, and have sparred with mantis guys…..and no one in that film used either. there was no stance or footwork, no closing the gap. none of the mantis distraction techniques. that was two guys who like each other too much, playing ‘go on then, i was tong po last week, ill be dux’…..>

Post: dikdirkin:

worth a larf though.>

Post: dikdirkin:

[quote=Oa3k [quote=…formless… [quote=Oa3k I thought it was pretty good…i don’t see while you all should be so quick to criticize as i doubt all of you would put up a better sparring contest[/quote 

Oa3k, you just had your first kung fu class a little over a month ago. How exactly is it possible that you’d know whether this clip was good or not?By what possible criteria have you determined this clip to be good? Honestly, I’d love to hear because from what I saw there was nothing good about the guys in that footage. Nothing. I couldn’t even finish it for godsakes.

I’m gonna do everything I can to get my hands on some quality kung fu footage that hopefully includes sparring amongst proficient students. Then maybe people will be able to get these disgusting images out of their heads and let go of the weak-sauce stigma that marks nearly all CMAs today. *shudders*[/quote 

Had my first kung fu class in a particular style, not my my first kung fu class and certainly not my first martial arts class. I know alot about martial arts so I can provide a decent analysis of what I saw in that clip and I have determined it to be a good clip. Maybe until you all prove you can do better than you shouldn’t talk down on it.[/quote 

…………………its shite>

Post: zefff:

[quote=Oa3k Perhaps the sparring clip might have been a light spar where they were just trying to feel each other out. May not have been 100% engaging in which you all assume it to be.[/quote 

I dont think anyone assumed it was 100%. But even when you do limited sparring you still have to have an objective. You have to be working on developing something otherwise its actually making you a worse fighter than you were to begin with.

Look! If one man has an extended guard, the other shouldnt seek to make contact with it. And if he does seek it, the first man should capitalise on that.

Its my belief that they were comforting one another with their body language and cooperative rythm and technique. The touching of guards seemed to be the embodiment of their combined fear and mutual reassurance. Their fear bonded them during the round when it should be the confronting of fear that bonds them…afterwards.>

Post: …formless…:

Even for a fairy-esque “light spar where they just try to feel each other out” that was absolutely horrible. It doesn’t matter what kind of sparring you decide to call it. Even in light sparring there is no reason for more than half the stupid shit they do and continue to do in that film. No reason.>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Even light, slow sparring should be done with full intent and a combative mindset. These guys seemed to desperately want to make contact but at the same time were mortally afraid of doing so.>

Post: NeverMan:

[quote=zefff interestingly enough, no. Now what does that tell ya?[/quote 

I thought you were a WC Practitioner? Something happen to you at your Kwoon or something make you change your mind? You get into a fight and lose or something? What gives? Or am I mistaking you with someone else?>

Post: zefff:

[quote=NeverMan 
I thought you were a WC Practitioner? Something happen to you at your Kwoon or something make you change your mind? You get into a fight and lose or something? What gives? Or am I mistaking you with someone else?[/quote 

1)I am the same person. Whats the problem? I am a WC student but a Panantukan boxer first and always!

2)Something always happens at my Kwoon. Thats why I pay good money. :lol: I havent changed my mind since I learnt the difference between fear induced ego massage sparring and scientific, progressive development sparring.

3)I dont get into fights anymore. Ive never lost a real fight. I always outrun them 8)

4)I am not a political person. If I think a WC fighter is poo I cant help what I think. WC is only an idea. An idea that exists in the individual practioners head.

I like my WC but I dont like to hide behind the ‘invincible techniques’ of it. If I fight or spar its me alone doing the biz not WC.

If there are no vids online what does that tell ya?

respect.

edit: I think WVW is right because no matter what exercise you do, you have to do it with a warrior mindset and intent. You have to apply your mind to the exercise. You have to think about why you respond a certain way to expected and unexpected things and you have to learn to understand what fears you have and fathom if they are petty, egotistical or irrational ones.>

Post: graham1:

The two guys are obviously good friends, not seriously wanting to hurt each other. Like other posters to this strand I thought they were showing the same style. The level of commitment shown was obviously not enough to keep the guy in red at the back of the room from falling asleep!>

Post: wuming:

I’m sorry everyone but there is only one thiing actually wrong with this clip and that is FEAR. These guys are obviously afraid of being hurt and hurting the opponent. You all have mentioned the gestures and the light tapping of the hands the and lack of commitment. Those behaviors are obvious signs of fear. Zeff’s above post about the fear is 100% on. Why they are afraid, I can’t tell you with 100% confidence: maybe it is the lack of pads, or their friendship, or maybe their lighthearted training. Either way, it is obvious that the real problem here is fear and a lack of commitment. I have experienced this problem at times when I train with my best friend (no I don’t mean we look really bad like that, I just mean the fear problem), it is only natural; and this problem is one thing we train to overcome, but it does not happen over night — nothing does and we must always remember that.>

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