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Shaolin Kung Fu Q&A
Original Poster: BLACK PANTA
Forum: Kung Fu Styles, Chinese Martial Arts
Posted On: 01-05-2006, 21:14

Orginal Post: BLACK PANTA: After speaking with Evil Scott, he gave me this idea to answer any question you all may have about Shaolin Kung Fu, or Kung Fu in general.
I am in no way an expert, but I do have some knowledge and if I cannot answer your questions, I make a commitment to all of you not to answer with BS (make us an answer). I will consult my Sifu and get back to you all with the answers. I look at this as also an oppourtunity to clarify all the mis-conceptions about Kung Fu aswell.

i look foward to all of your questions.

Post: Umy:

Yet another Q&A thread, I honestly think we should have one for every art, everyone would benefit greatly :D

Anyway…..

How long do you think it takes your average joe with little experience to get into pretty good fighting shape in shaolin kung fu? (I understand this is a very broad question and will depend on several factors and the individual but a general time, for example 6 months of boxing will get most into fighting shape) If you cant really put a time on it how long did it take you to get into ‘fighting shape’.

Also what would a basic class session consist of? (routine wise)

And finally, do you still emphisise a lot on the horse riding stance? I was just wondering as I find it a great way of conditioning my legs for long hard workouts.

Thanks bro,

Umy>

Post: EvilScott:

I heard Kung Fu users can fly – IS THIS TRUE?!?!?!? :mrgreen:

Seriously though, tell us a little bit about the different animals you use, and the ideas behind them. Give an example about how they can be used together, and how other arts use the same ideas with different execution.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=0o~KiNg*UmY~o0 
How long do you think it takes your average joe with little experience to get into pretty good fighting shape in shaolin kung fu? (I understand this is a very broad question and will depend on several factors and the individual but a general time, for example 6 months of boxing will get most into fighting shape) If you cant really put a time on it how long did it take you to get into ‘fighting shape’. [/quote 

In my personal case it took me about 3 months to get into decent shape and conditioning. As you said it depends on the person’s will, drive and natural ability. In my case I had little to no flexibility. Within 3 months I increased my kicking height conciderably. The conditioning and training in Kung Fu is ever progressive. They go hand in hand. No one can say they are fully conditioned or have trained and learned it all. You can spend a lifetime in Kung Fu and still only scratched the tip of the Ice Berg. But to be in a “fighting” shape I would say within the first 3-9 months the average person will see a very noticalbe progression in their conditioning. Like all arts it take hard work and dedication to progress. There is alot of focus on condiontioning throughout your training. You are always getting better physically and skillfully. The feeling is very rewarding.

Quote:
Also what would a basic class session consist of? (routine wise)

A basic class is learning the basics of kung fu really. You learn the basic stances i.e. traditional bow (left and right), horse, crane and cat.
the basic of the basics however are the bow stances and horse. These two stances are trained low to develope leg strength and balance. My legs personally have become a lot more powerful by training these stances. You also learn basic punching and kicking. Kicks: sicde, front and back. You must first learn front and side kick properly to learn a proper back kick. We train kicks and punches a lot more in beginners classes (although you still train the basic kick VERY much throughout your training) Alot of the beginners classes is also conditioning (as well as throughout your trianing). In the beginning, it is made sure you know one basic form, basic punches and kicks and stances.

Quote:
And finally, do you still emphisise a lot on the horse riding stance? I was just wondering as I find it a great way of conditioning my legs for long hard workouts.

The horse stance is very important to train, not only for the conditioning but is a very sturdy stance. It is a fantastic way to develope leg strength. I remember in Basket ball we trained a similar stance (no where near as painful though) to condition our legs. The horse stance is a great stance to train low, but in a combat situation you would not likely go that low (unless you fight using a long art technique like Hung Gar). From the horse stance you have “access” to alot of your kicks. From a horse stance aswell you give your opponent less targets to attack. You show the person the side of you body in this stance, you do not show him the front because obvioulsy your goin, midsection and face are very open.

Quote:
Thanks bro,

No problem but I apologize for being so brief. I am at work and I did this during a short break. I could go into way more detail, but that would take a lot of time to type and read lol. Hopefully when more question arise I will be forced to come back to these original questions and that will clarify some more. I hope you are however satisfied with my answers, and if you are not please dont hesistate to let me know. I will try to elaborate further, time permitting today that is. lol>

Post: Umy:

Its cool bro, you’ve basically covered what I wanted to know.

Great thread bro keep it coming :wink:>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=EvilScott I heard Kung Fu users can fly – IS THIS TRUE?!?!?!? :mrgreen: [/quote 

LOL. But it is said that in the old days, some folks has such great control of their chi that they would use it like stilts. They would not fly but actually walk on their chi, (shot down from under their feet). I know it wasn’t a serious question, but this is one explaination pertaining to the legends.

Quote:
Seriously though, tell us a little bit about the different animals you use, and the ideas behind them. Give an example about how they can be used together, and how other arts use the same ideas with different execution.

there are 5 animals. I remember you explained them and I know I will not be able to explain it as eloquently as you did my friend.

The five animals are Dragon, Crane, Snake, Panther and Tiger. Each having their own philosophy in the art.

Crane: is graceful, emphasizes flexibility.
Snake: emphasizes, wisdom, precision, avoidance and speed
Panther: is agility, dexterity, stamina and strategy. Look at as the centre of the animals.
Tiger: is power, speed, direct attacks. It is a hard style. (eg. Shotokan Karate utilizies a lot of Tiger in the art)
Dragon: is also graceful, harmonic and fluid

I would say that Aikido focuses alot more on the Crane and Dragon philosophy. Aikido is very fluent, graceful and harmonic. There is also a great deal of Snake in the art, there is Snake in almost every art however. Every art has it’s own wisdom behind their techniques. But Aikido IMO uses snake very effectively aswell. Tiger like I said is used alot in Shotokan, Muay Thai, Boxing. Panther would been seen used alot in TKD (i wanted to say tiger but I see more panter-istic tendancies in the art) There is alot of Panther philosophy used in JKD (although all the animals are still used in that art), aslo I would say that JJ (BJJ, JJJ, GJJ) uses A LOT of Panther philosophies.

Now in almost all Kung Fu styles, they utilize all 5 animals, however some styles tend to focus more on developing and concentrating on one animal’s philosophy in paticular. Like Tai Chi uses more of the Dragon in it’s style, WC uses more Crane (and panther), Black Dragon, White Tiger, White Crane, all these styles are self explanitory. There are other arts that have animal names but still fall under the 5 animals. Like Eagle Claw Kung Fu, is pretty much the same as Dragon, Mantis is pretty much Crane. etc.

This is just a very general explaination of the 5 animals. It is just to give you all an idea. I am still exploring the 5 animals myself, so I learn more and more all the time about them. In the Shaolin system we use all 5 animals in our training.

I hope this atleast answered your question tho bro. Thanks for the oppourtunity.>

Post: bamboo:

Does shaolin have its own chi exercises or they incorporate from other arts like chi kung?

-bamboo>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=bamboo Does shaolin have its own chi exercises or they incorporate from other arts like chi kung? [/quote 

In Shaolin we develope our chi thoroug focused breathing exercises, meditation, sound focus and yes Chi Gong. Chi Gong to my knowledge derived from Shaolin. Chi is developed in Kung Fu the same as you would develope your muscles and skill while taking the art. Some of our breathing techniques are very Yogistic aswell. My control of Chi is at a very beginners level right now. You will find that Aikido and Kung Fu have very similar chi “cultivation” exercises.>

Post: bamboo:

What would you say is the most common misconception about shaolin kungfu?

-bamboo>

Post: EvilScott:

You mention Black Dragon and White Crane occasionally. Is there any difference between Black Dragon and normal Dragon, etc.? Or are these just extra descriptive statements?

Also – the way Leopard (is that what you mean by Panther?) was explained to me was power through momentum. Does that conflict with what you are taught?

Ps. WC uses LOTS of tiger – we only use it when we strike, not when we block.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=bamboo What would you say is the most common misconception about shaolin kungfu?

-bamboo[/quote 

I would say the most common misconception that people have about Kung Fu is that all we do is high flying acrobats (Wushu) or very slow moving techniques (ala asshole Carradine in Kung Fu the legend continues) These misconceptions derive from too many people watching too many kung fu movies on television. Hollywood and other entertainment industries “hollywoodise” kung fu. You know they make it good for the cameras. Because of this people dont see kung fu as effective or just a “wow look what he can do” type of thing.>

Post: bamboo:

Panta,

Your so right, until you showed me some applications I had only ever seen movie kungfu and the odd smattering with a few guys I had sparred with. Its funny how easily the movies shape our perception about the arts.

Thank you,

bamboo>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=EvilScott You mention Black Dragon and White Crane occasionally. Is there any difference between Black Dragon and normal Dragon, etc.? Or are these just extra descriptive statements?[/quote 

The “Dragon” you speak of would be more of a philosophy and an art like Black Dragon in that philosophy made physical. If you know what I mean. However if you are speaking of a style Dragon, then the difference would be it’s philosophy, focus, concepts and thought. For instance Tai Chi focuses on the fluidity very Aikido-esque, where as another Dragon form may focus on the dragon claw/eagle claw striking techniques.

Quote:
Also – the way Leopard (is that what you mean by Panther?) was explained to me was power through momentum. Does that conflict with what you are taught?

I would say the it doesn’t conflict, it is consistant to what panther is, generating power through speed.

Quote:
Ps. WC uses LOTS of tiger – we only use it when we strike, not when we block.

by saying you use tiger just mean you use one of it’s striking motions, you dont necessarily use all of its philosophies. Like WC doesnt really focus on power and directness. I wish to re-iterate the fact that all styles of kung fu uses all of the animal philosophies. So you will still see some tiger in your art, just because one art is named something like “white crane” doesnt mean it ONLY focuses on Crane. It still utilizes all 5 animals.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

[quote=BLACK PANTA by saying you use tiger just mean you use one of it’s striking motions, you dont necessarily use all of its philosophies. Like WC doesnt really focus on power and directness.[/quote 

I understand the point you’re making, but I have to disagree with the example – in my opinion Wing Chun is very direct and does focus on power, although it develops it in different ways from most arts.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=*Gong*Sao* 

I understand the point you’re making, but I have to disagree with the example – in my opinion Wing Chun is very direct and does focus on power, although it develops it in different ways from most arts.[/quote 

Well I can understand what your are saying aswell. Power is in all the styles of Kung Fu. There is Tiger in all the styles, there are all the animals in all the styles. As well as you can find all the animals in all the arts. It’s just that some arts convey more of one animal philosophy than the others. I hope you get what I’m saying.>

Post: monkeypalm:

i think these q & a threads are a great idea!

one more point on this…

Quote:
Like WC doesnt really focus on power and directness

ever heard of the straight blast (continuous punching?) :lol:

i have a question… how much do you emphasise on relaxation and how much is developing muscle for generating power?>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Nice thread, Panta!

Regarding the animal styles, I’ve read that WC is considered more of a Crane/Snake style, the Snake element being the emphasis on dominating the centre and crowding an opponent to seal off his movement. At least, WC as we most commonly see it today. Having seen some ancient lineages of WC, though, I would agree that there are definite Tiger influences in them as they do incorporate some bold, forceful movements with long bow and horse stances similar to Hung Gar.>

Post: The BadBoy:

Panta you have mentioned Chi and excercises to develop your Chi, so this lead me to a question that has always troubled me. What is Chi?>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
What is Chi?

This sounds like the hardest possible question for poor Panta or anyone else aside from 50 year practitioners to answer. And even the masters would be cloudy!
:)

-bamboo>

Post: bamboo:

I think Pantas reference to the “tiger” not being prevelant in WC is because of the overt and vulgar display of power in the tiger form, while WC seems to the non-practitioner seems to be a much more subtle art, although direct and powerful, not like that of the very external tiger.

-bamboo>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=bamboo 
Quote:
What is Chi?

This sounds like the hardest possible question for poor Panta or anyone else aside from 50 year practitioners to answer. And even the masters would be cloudy!
:)

-bamboo[/quote 

I agree with bamboo here. You could study Chi and still not really know the fullness of chi. But I will take a go at it. Chi in basic terms is energy. Chi is everywhere. It is not the mystical power that Hollywood makes it out to be. It is a practical part of every martial art and almost everything you do in life. You dont need to subscribe to a religeon to develope it, and you dont need to believe in different ideologies. But to re iterate, what bamboo said (he would know alot more about chi than i would seeing that he is my senior and an aKI(chi)doka) you could study chi all of your life, and you can have such a control that people think you know it all, but in reality, you dont know all there is to know about chi, you will not fully understand Chi.[/list >

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=monkeypalm i have a question… how much do you emphasise on relaxation and how much is developing muscle for generating power?[/quote 

Well relaxing is key in Kung Fu. Shoulders have to be relaxed, and you shouldn’t tense up making youself stiff and rigid (something I still struggle with). Generating power in kung fu is not focused on muscle power really. The power comes from your centre. I comes from various methods and techniques. If you fight with brute strength against a trained individual, you will more than likely end up loosing the fight. I am at work I remind you all again so I hope this short answer, satisfies your question.>

Post: The BadBoy:

Back to the Chi, how do you know the excercises develop Chi if you don’t even know what it is? Not trying to flame or anything, just curious.

Who decided what chi was? what research was done to prove its existence?>

Post: jeetkunedomaster:

from my training in JKD, i think of chi as the energy that all living things possess, but also as the combination of a fighters concentration, breathing and attacks. the chi from your body is supposed to travel through your weapon and explode onto the target as you simultaneously perform all these actions correctly. again thats what ive learned in my training so far, i could elaborate more on the concentration breathing and attacks part but ill try and keep it brief. i dont know how much that helps but i think panta and bamboo know what im talking about>

Post: bamboo:

I’ll be totally honest, I don’t kow what chi/ki/pranja is. I think there is something that permeates not only living things but all things and keeps us connected, maybe that is chi?

When I practice martial arts I do so mindfully as to totally aware of all my actions from my breathing to my ukes’, from my surroundings, from my center to the pressure on the balls of my feet. This to me is no more than meditation, awareness of all things at once. When we do ki exercises in aikido, they are very similar to chi kung, but what i get is the same sense of total awareness that I get when I practice zazen.

Aiki arts all involve a certain connection between one body, the next body and the surroundings, when I take someones “center” I can feel it, is this a connection of chi? I don’t know, but I can only do it when I am totally aware.

I don’t know what chi is, maybe is nothing more than the awareness that all things are connected, maybe its all bull.

-bamboo>

Post: jeetkunedomaster:

well said bamboo, i dont think chi can be defined but instead it’s what you feel when you are totally focused on the opponent. (maybe chi is just an adrenaline rush :?: ) like i said earlier, i can only elaborate on what ive learned from my training, but i basicly have the same idea of “total awareness” that you have. (a.k.a. concentrate breath attack)

i hope that made it a little clearer for the badboy

BTW, i think this might be in another thread but would you consider drunken boxing an effective means of self defense/fighting?

thanks for the reply and keep up the good work :mrgreen:>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=The BadBoy Back to the Chi, how do you know the excercises develop Chi if you don’t even know what it is? Not trying to flame or anything, just curious.

Who decided what chi was? what research was done to prove its existence?[/quote 

most excellt replies bamboo and Jeetkunedomaster. Badboy what makes you think we will think you are flaming you homoerotic numbskull :lol: (that was a jocular attempt, pretendin to flame badboy) :roll:

Chi, from my understanding, is the internal energy of the body. The energy that is around us. We as MAist try to harness and control our chi by certain methods and techniques. We do so by, focused breathing, meditation (not to be mixed with prayer), movements, concentration etc. Only a fool would say he fully understands Chi. Only a fool would say he has total control of chi. There is power in the human body that we have not yet tapped, yes we are fragile, but also powerful. The existance of Chi has been made clear, that is how we know of Chi. Look at exercises like Chi Gong, there has been men who do phenomenal feats that seem to be superhuman. They credit that to their Chi developement. This is a question that philosophers, scholars and masters ponder regularly. No one can tell you fully what Chi is, but some can show you the effects of Chi developement. Thanks to Bamboo and his Wife (sensei) I have seen first hand the effect of chi. It was a small exercise and a small effect but still impressive. His wife, a small woman showed strength that you wouldn’t imagine a woman of her size should have. I hope this along with bamboo’s and jKDmaster’s post clears things up for you.>

Post: Kyorgi:

I don’t know how much this would help but I found a diagram of the way that chi flows

http://www.ascendpress.org/articles/transmissions4/Chi.Diagram.jpg>

Post: The BadBoy:

Good explanations. Thanks. Personally I don’t believe in the mystical energy side of things so I kind like Bamboo’s response and it validity in training those aspects. Cheers guys keep up the good work.>

Post: Mumblyj00:

What about other animal forms, like monkey or mantis?>

Post: Blade:

There is a long form called the Tiger in my school.
It is divided into two parts, Static Tiger and Tiger In Motion.
The first is just wrist and elbow movement, the second includes standard pivioting.
Throught the whole form your suposed to be relaxed with exception to your fists and forearms which are flexed as hard as they can be and the pressure needs to increase every motion you make making the form a very painfull excercise, when you are done you cant open your fist right away.
there is extreme tiger in wingchun but not many see it.
there is also snake & crane and same for Dragon and Leopard although i dont know where their specific influence is..>

Post: The BadBoy:

hey guys, how do the elements come into the Five animal systems?>

Post: TigerPaw:

[url http://www.fuhok.com/Hung%20Gar%20Training/animals-elements.htm[/url >

Post: The BadBoy:

So are the five element styles seperate from the five animal styles?>

Post: TigerPaw:

Not in Hung Gar.. My Dai Sigung (Teachers… Teachers.. Teacher. If there’s some misstakes in the wannabe-cantonese spelling. -_-) showed us at a seminar that people used to say; “But that’s not an element, That’s a tiger technique, I can see it..” He explained and showed us that the nature of fire burns within the tiger, Thus there’s always a little fire in tiger techniques, and a little tiger in the fire techniques, Because they.. I dont know the word he used.. They’re like one, they’re entwined? encircled? >_<

Sorry, I hereby call upon the holy sanctity of Linguistic problems.

Although I believe that as in Such styles as Tai-chi, Being only Taoist, They utilize only the five elements. The five elements of Tao..

Many Shaolin systems, as I’ve seen it, Is a hybrid between Taoism and Buddhism. The Ch’an Sect and all that…>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

There are Five Element forms in Shaolin family styles alongside of the Five Animals, but the Five Animals do indeed have Elemental analogues.

For instance, Dragon-style is I think associated with the Metal element, with a lot of precise, languid, arcing/chopping/shearing type movements, while the Snake is associated with Wood, with its linear, in-out, all-in-one-movement, controlling-the-centre characteristics. The Crane, with its soft, evasive characteristics should be Water-analogous. As for the other two, it took me a bit of thinking and research to come up with a suitable answer, but I think I have it.

Tiger should be Earth-analogous, with its firm, rooted stances and constant application of force and unyielding, crowding-in characteristics to force an opponent off balance and break his root.

Leopard, on the other hand, is explosive, violent and unpredictable – quite Fire-
analogous, IMHO.

Of course, this is all my own interpretation as I’ve never heard official opinion on this one.>

Post: TigerPaw:

I believe it would wary a bit on the different philosophies and uses of the different animal in different shaolin styles.

But If I’m not misstaken, Hung Gar unisons the Elements and Animals on what they Build and cultivate, As the elements forges and creates\shapes. But the Animals is more the classification of how you use the techniques, tiger, crowding and pressing forward and down\above-all-over.

Tiger and Fire Cultivates Bone, Panther and Metal Cultivates.. Strenght was it? Cultivates is the golden word for us. But I’m sure each style have a slightly different interputation.. inturpu.. inter.. Could someone spell it for me?>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Interpretation… welcome to the site, by the way, and interesting posts :mrgreen:>

Post: The BadBoy:

lol this dudes spelling is as bad as mine.>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

[quote=The BadBoy lol this dudes spelling is as bad as mine.[/quote 

lol, I bet he speaks better Swedish than you though :lol:>

Post: TigerPaw:

I blame the public school system.. ;)>

Post: bamboo:

Does Shaolin use the 8 directions as outlined in taoism at all?

-bamboo>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Bamboo: The Four Sides and Eight Directions are common to every major Chinese martial art, since they are all based on derivations from Taoist meta-science as delineated in the Book of Changes, be they Buddhist or Taoist. They may couch them in slightly different terms, depending on the art, but they are there.>

Post: bamboo:

Hammerhead,

Thankyou. I really know nothing of the chinese arts technically speaking. I am fairly familiar with the philisophical aspects but not in with their direct relations to each art itself. The book of changes is especially interesting to me at the moment.

Are such classics as the I-Ching or the Tao teh Ching considered mandatory reading to people studying the chinese arts? I would imagine a basic understanding would be essential for the internal arts at least.

BTW, thanks to all who patiently answer my questions, I am learning quite abit. :D

-bamboo>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

bamboo: No worries, buddy. The thing with the theory of Changes is that it’s pretty much built into every aspect of native Chinese thought and life. Reading it would certainly benefit one’s understanding of the art, but it’s not necessary. The concepts are built into the martial arts influenced by them and, in fact, many excellent Chinese martial artists throughout history were illiterate. Of course, the ones with a scholarly bent all studied the Changes extensively and wrote their own treatises on it as it related to their arts – one of the best examples in this regard is Chen Xin’s work on Chen-style Taijiquan, in which he derives the rationale of the art from first principles. I have the book in the original text sitting on my table right now and it’s HEAVY going :shock: The works of Sun Lutang, who influenced all of the Big Three internal arts, are another good example of a scholarly take on Chinese martial arts.>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
The thing with the theory of Changes is that it’s pretty much built into every aspect of native Chinese thought and life.

This makes complete sense. I was shortsighted in asking the question because I saw it only from a western perpective.

Quote:
The concepts are built into the martial arts influenced by them and, in fact, many excellent Chinese martial artists throughout history were illiterate.

“Feeling” the art, knowing it in a way that is beyond words to me is the highest level of understanding. No book can at all teach you the truth behind the arts. Good reminder! :wink:

Quote:
The works of Sun Lutang, who influenced all of the Big Three internal arts, are another good example of a scholarly take on Chinese martial arts.

Looks like I have a book search or three to do.

Great post Hammerhead!

cheers,

-bamboo>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Always glad to be of help, bamboo! If you ever have any questions on this matter, don’t hesitate to ask. If I don’t actually know the answer or have a book that has the answer, I’m sure I could find someone who does to harrass for the answer…if they don’t up and hit me for being annoying, that is :lol:>

Post: FHATODude:

[quote=BLACK PANTA 

I would say the most common misconception that people have about Kung Fu is that all we do is high flying acrobats (Wushu) or very slow moving techniques (ala asshole Carradine in Kung Fu the legend continues) These misconceptions derive from too many people watching too many kung fu movies on television. Hollywood and other entertainment industries “hollywoodise” kung fu. You know they make it good for the cameras. Because of this people dont see kung fu as effective or just a “wow look what he can do” type of thing.[/quote 

there are people who actually think kungfu is slow? dun tell me they haven’t watched ne jackie chan movies lol.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Don’t tell me you think the Kung Fu in Jackie Chan movies is real :roll:>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Oh yes – just like how Jet Li really can fly and stick to walls with his awesome kungfu skill. Wish my teacher taught me neat shite like that.>

Post: wuming:

BAD BOY :!:

We have a really long post regarding chi in the “others” forum that I make some very lengthy contributions to. I think it will answer yours and everyone’s questions about chi :D>

Post: Nightstrike:

Sounds like chi is magick to me.
All with the elements fixed in and such, its bringing my suspicion thats what it is.
however, it could be very well be the power that flows through us human being.>

Post: wuming:

Ok, I have been forced to copy and paste my initial explanation of chi again…

(Side note: I practice Pa Kua and chi is a very important factor in Pa Kua training.)

First of all, I must dispell some myths. Chi is not a mystical force. People can not create energy balls with chi. Chi does not have telekinetic powers. And, chi is a not synonomous with focus — but focus is a major part in chi awareness.

Everyone has chi in their bodies. Let me use this anecdote the Pa Kua master, Master Park Bok Nam uses in his book. Master Park says that there are two types of energies. “Take two individuals and send them to work; one goes to a construction job and digs ditches, the other goes to an office job, sits at a computer, answers the phone and works on a computer. At the end of the day, both of these individuals feel tired eventhough their respective expenditure of energy is quite different. The construction worker has spent a lot of physical, external energy; the office worker has expended a lot of internal, mental energy. Even though the work performed is quite different, they both feel fatigue because they both have expended equal amounts of energy.” Basically, Master Park is saying stating an a couple obvoius facts. When we do any work — mental or physical — we feel tired: energy has been used.

Now, Master Park also uses these three equations to explain internal power and chi devopment.

Internal Power = Internal Striking Mechanics + Chi Movement
Chi Movement = Mind (intention) + Fluid and Relaxed Body Movement + Breathing
Chi Development = Breathing + Body Movement + Mind (intention)

With all of this in mind, what happens when you breathe? Obviously, when we breathe we take in oxygen. This oxygen is then circulated throughout the body and used by the body’s systems and cells to provide energy. Heat is a by-product of the chemical convertion of glucose (blood sugar) and oxygen into useful energy. When performing chi kung breathing exercises what you are doing is bringing more oxygen into your body. Now, your blood is more oxygen rich. Chi kung exercises were designed to open the joints and promote greater blood flow. So, the combination of oxygen-rich blood and increased and more efficient blood flow leads to increased chemical reactions and energy output. While practicing chi kung, people tend to always feel a warm tingling feeling in the area of concentration. This heat that people feel is the product of the chemical reactions in the blood. Basically, the focus that people use in chi kung is used to make the person aware of these feeling of these processes.

So, it is in this light that I additionally like to think of chi as the metabolic energy that is used to perfom and mental or physical task. It is the energy that keeps the processes of the living organism in motion. I think the term chi represents the feeling of this energy. Chi must be felt, not understood. If you practice a basic chi kung exercise correctly (emphasis on correctly!) you will feel it.>

Post: Nightstrike:

Ah, thank you.
I am begginning to understand what chi is.>

Post: jeetkunedomaster:

“While practicing chi kung, people tend to always feel a warm tingling feeling in the area of concentration. This heat that people feel is the product of the chemical reactions in the blood. “

damn, science takes the magic out of everything :cry: just kidding! great post wuming>

Post: TigerPaw:

www.wahnam.com

A good site about Qi Gong.. and traditionall shaolin kung fu overall.>

Post: Arjun:

Nightstrike: Are you serious? If so, take it elsewhere, this is a martial arts discussion board, not a place to discuss magic or any other such fantasy. The comic relief is nice, but gets old fast.>

Post: TigerPaw:

>

Post: TigerPaw:

When it comes to the philosophy and ethics behind martial arts, wheter it be from Hagakure, Go rin no sho, or that strange mongolian individual martial art based on dancing and wrestling on the floor. I believe the whole meditation over it is to put it in second nature, just as you do with the principles and techniques of your style.
That the pattern of thoughts will become as natural to you as your technique.

You wont have time to think, so think beforehand, so your mind is already set.

Am I off in the wrong direction on this one? :|>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

That’s one way of looking at it, Jon. One analogy I read regarding this is that the warrior’s mind can be likened to a cup which receives whatever comes his way via the five senses. If his mind is full – that is, if he is consciously and continuously thinking during combat – the cup is full and cannot properly process what he perceives, hence it overflows and disaster occurs. Whereas, if the cup is empty, it perfectly receives and contains whatever he perceives, allowing him to act appropriately.>

Post: Wong Fei Hong:

[quote=Gong||Jau Don’t tell me you think the Kung Fu in Jackie Chan movies is real :roll:[/quote 

Actually the techniques are but not the hiting. I actually did some training with a choreographer adn boy was that fun and i did use kung fu in it.>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Jackie Chan is a real acrobat and his teacher in the opera troupe was also a famous martial artist of that era, plus many of his mates came from famous martial arts families (Lily Lau, daughter of Lau Fat Man etc.), so there was real martial arts training on top of the theatrical stuff they did and I have read that Jackie did get into a lot of fights in his younger days, but the stuff he uses for the movies is very carefully-choreographed theatrical martial arts and acrobatics. Elements of real live martial arts are indeed heavily used in such things, but they are slated to fulfil cinematic purposes – ie. looking entertaining for the audience – rather than combative purposes. Jackie may indeed use the same fundamentals to perform as he uses to fight, but he most certainly would not apply them the same way.>

Post: Wong Fei Hong:

[quote=Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn Jackie Chan is a real acrobat and his teacher in the opera troupe was also a famous martial artist of that era, plus many of his mates came from famous martial arts families (Lily Lau, daughter of Lau Fat Man etc.), so there was real martial arts training on top of the theatrical stuff they did and I have read that Jackie did get into a lot of fights in his younger days, but the stuff he uses for the movies is very carefully-choreographed theatrical martial arts and acrobatics. Elements of real live martial arts are indeed heavily used in such things, but they are slated to fulfil cinematic purposes – ie. looking entertaining for the audience – rather than combative purposes. Jackie may indeed use the same fundamentals to perform as he uses to fight, but he most certainly would not apply them the same way.[/quote 

to much info :roll:>

Post: TigerPaw:

Panta, Do you know anything about the more advanced internal parts of Fu Jow Pai, I’ve heard some rumours about some of the tigerclaw styles has a very iron-wire like set… Could you shed more light on how they train their hei gung\noi gung\qi gong\whatnot? :roll:>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

Tiger paw at this point I honestly dont know man. I will give you info as soon as I find out tho bro.

Sorry dude.>

Post: xcal:

HI All,

I read a looong time ago that “any technology that looks fantastic, and cannot be explained can be called MAGIC”. this is a poor quote as it does not reflect the poetic flow of the original statement.

anyway, my point is that anything that was observed and not explained was placed in a container and called Chi/qi/prana/theForce/… We can now explain, and show that the tingling sensation we feel in our fingers is due to nerves/blood.

Does this mean the the chi-kung training is useless? absolutely not! It just means that we have scientific explanations for SOME of the phenomena. Science cannot explain what over 90% of our brain is used for. I suggest that chi is a product of this 90% + whatever else science cannot explain.

take the ‘common thread’ that is believed to connect every thing in the universe…science has finally explained it as electrons/protons/neutrons found in atoms. Ideas of this commonality has been put forward in eastern philosophies/religions thousands of years ago.

regards
Xcal>

Post: Sparky-bjj:

Does anybody know about Kuo chu’an or ‘dog style kung fu’? Does it actually exist? I’ve heard that it is a style for smaller people with lot’s of attacks on lower body parts. On the other hand I’ve heard that it is a style where the practioner starts weeping and crying and looking very vulnerable to distract the attacker and make him feel confused or victorious, then the practioner would suddenly attack vicously to come out as the winner of the fight. But that’s just what I’ve heard and I’m absolutely not sure if this is correct.>

Post: meathead:

i wish to know what kind of leg training do people do in kung fu for higher jumps, so they can do all those spinning jumping kicks
anything in particular or just train while you do it?>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=meathead i wish to know what kind of leg training do people do in kung fu for higher jumps, so they can do all those spinning jumping kicks
anything in particular or just train while you do it?[/quote 

low stances, held for long periods of time. Also repetition of movements.>

Post: nbotary:

Try sitting in horse stance for 30 minutes and see what that does for ya. Other than that, stretch and work up to what you’re trying to accomplish. Listen to your body – it will tell you if you’re pushing too hard. You will have to work up to some things gradually.>

Post: meathead:

low stances realy help with jumping?!
but how?
i did situps with weights in my hands so i have strong legs but my jumps haven’t improved at all
i read that it’s not realy on how strong your muscle is it’s more on how they can work as a sling
you go down fast and it realy flexes your muscles and then shoots you upwards along with your extending muscles, that’s how you jump
which was only trained by jumping
can holding a low stance realy improve your jump? 8O
and is increasing weight of it even better for jumping?>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

do you mean squats not situps?

When holding a low stance (like horse) you dont really bulk up your muscle…you strengthen it. Your not goin up and down, up and down. You are holding yourself in one position basically until you feel like you can’t stand anymore. Then you go lower and lower, wider and wider everytime. It’s not easy man. I personally think squats are way easier, even when you’re not cheating and resting.
However those types of exercises are not just for jumping. It’s good for kicking, solidifying your stances, and even punching.

I used to play basket ball, I was able to dunk a basketball when I was 5’11” or so…I was working my legs (calves and little thighs). I’m now 6′, and even after very bad knees, (due to basketball related injuries) I am still able to squeeze a woman’s size ball in the hoop. Mind you I’m not as diligent as most KF practitioners are when it comes to practicing their stances (i have a very very limited attention span)>

Post: meathead:

were you doing stances when you were 5’11 that made you able to hoop it? or did you do some other exercises?

yeah i know i tried a few horse stances before
just hoding it for 5 min made me sweat like crazy

yeah sorry i meant squats, silly me :D>

Post: Hengest:

meathead: Although not kung fu specific advice, I would point out that dumbbell squats are not particularly effective as a strength exercise. Not calling you a poof or anything, but it’s more likely the kind of exercise you’ll see Ms.Fitness competitors doing. :D

If you’re looking to increase leg strength through weight training, get to the gym and start doing some heavy barbell squats, or, failing that, leg presses. You should find some impressive gains in leg strength that way.>

Post: meathead:

no no i don’t want to increase my leg streinght to get all bulky, i used to do it, but not anymore
i wish to increase my jump now
the problem is i live in a flat so i can’t jump too much and there are no gyms near that alow me to do acrobatics or something nor do i have the money for it,
i can only do it outside but it’s freaking cold right now
so it would be so nice if simple leg stances that i can do at home would increase my jump
but is that realy possible?>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

while playing bb I wasn’t practicing KF, but we did similar leg strengthning exercises. We would press our backs against the wall, then bend our knees at a 90 degree angle, so basically we’re sitting on an invisible stool, while our back is against the wall, and hold them until basically we collapsed.

try that, along with horse stance (horse also builds balance).>

Post: Hengest:

It’s an old wives’ tale that weight-training makes you bulky. It doesn’t have to. If you train squats properly, you can increase leg strength without any loss of agility.>

Post: meathead:

i wish to ask about the correct MA BO stance,
rider or horse stance if it’s even the same thing
i wish to know what is the correct foot rotation
i’ve read you need to have both feet forward and paralel
yet i’ve seen some people have vaze feet or flower feet or however you call them meaning rotated outward in 45 deegres

i’m guessing the correct one is if you have both feet forward
but i have this feeling that it’s better to have outward feet when your doing muscle training
if you have them outward you can switch between the front muscle group and the back muscle group just by clenching your feet together that way you can train more muscle equaly but if my feet are forward only the front muscles work

so should i do it outward or inward?>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

mabu (horse stance)
The feet should be parallel to each other. The knees should not bend past the toes but must bend in the same direction as the feet (one?s feet and knees point in the same direction). If they point in different directions then the development of Wushu-Knee (a medical condition that totally fraks up the knees) is likely to occur.
I?m not familiar with mabu done with one?s feet pointing at 45 degrees angles, but it sounds wrong. Most of the time when a Gongfu or Wushu practitioner does this it is to get a lower stance. However this is improper form. Also, pointing the feet at 45 degrees angles and the knees straight ahead will cause Wushu-Knee.
I am assuming you are asking this because you are new to Chinese Martial Arts as mabu is a very basic stance, though I would like to know if you are asking this because your teacher did not know the answer.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

wushu okay, please stop givin advice like you know it all. I’m not saying I know it all, but please be careful when givin advice.

a horse stance should be made comfortable for you…it is a combative stance. Proprer form is to keep feet parallel to eachother and yes knees pointed slightly outwards, however if one has bad knees or could develope bad knees dont strain yourself to keep feet parallel. It is okay to keep feet pointed slightly outward, at a comfortable position. Consult a physio threapist so that no further damage could be caused. Also inform your Sifu of any discomfort or past injuries. It is very important to do so. Your body tells you when something is wrong LISTEN to it.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

A couple of points about MA Bu stance. First, per Black Panta, please check with your teacher and your style as Northern and Southern horse stances may be different. A white crane horse stance (southern) may have the knees pointed in slightly while the northern usually does have the feet straight and knees bent at a 90% angle with the butt parallel to the ground. One way to test how deep one should go is to take a staff and place it on the legs….if it stays on then it is deep enough. However, practically, remember that fighting entails appropriate movement sooo…..the horse of course may be shallower in this instance.

A couple of other comments…one way to check the proper width of the legs in relation to the shoulders is easy…you should be able to move from any other stance to and from the Ma Bu if the Ma Bu is proper without adjustment. Whether a cat, arrow, crane, or other stance, even snake creeps down, all should be able to seamlessly move into the horse stance. If not, the proper spacing should be checked.

Per both Panta and Wushu, the essential thing is proper alignment for the individual. One other critical element: the proper alignment re upper back to buttocks. The whole back and butt should be ideally straight and in line as to not cause undue stress to the spine. The center should be from the sphinter and the sphinter to the middle of the head should be straight. This will prevent lower back issues.

A good teacher will ensure this stance is proper as all other stances and movement in most kung fu and internal arts resound from this stance. A good horse stance reflects good kung fu and one cannot have a good skill without it.

This is one long-time practitioner’s opinion. By the way, Happy New Year to all!!!>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

bloodybirds, your points are very valid, and correct. My post was not to say what is proper technique. My post was to inform Wushu that he shouldn’t be so haste to give advice if he’s not sure.
I have bad knees and my Sifu allowed me to practice my stances with that in mind. One must learn the basics, however it is in my experience that you dont have to stay there (if you know what I mean). The beauty of KF and the beauty of the tradition of KF (all styles) is that it is very easy to conform to the practitioner.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Black Panta, after major ACL surgery, shoulder surgery, bulging disks in lower back, spinal stenosis in two neck vertebrae, I still love this stuff!!! But I am enjoying rooting more than flying these days…lol. I find that when I do Shaolin stances I am fine as long as I keep moving. In taiji, sometimes the stances hurt more, especially with upper body, because of the slowness and concentrated stuff in the present. I agree with you totally on your comments….kung fu and taiji’s ability to allow each one of us to adapt to our personal conditions and external conditions as they arise is what makes it so cool…..besides, as you know, after a while we are a reflection of our teachers but still take the art to a personal level to fit our own unique abilities.

I use to be able to sit in proper horse stance for 30 minutes to an hour with no problem. These days, that is unnecessary. As one of my teachers says, after 15-20 years, one should stop training and start practicing-translation, stop doing all the hundreds of kicks, etc. and practice the application, the breathing, and understand the naturalness of the movements, not the techniques anymore. Plenty of technicians get their butts kicked and that alone does not ensure long life or a unbroken body….laughing. Both gravity and age are hell!!! Happy New Year to you!!!>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Meathead, I hope this discussion helped!!! Do what is proper, comfortable, and conforming to your own body’s unique abilities, and above all have the assistance of a qualified master to ensure appropriate stances. Ma Bu initially is very painful but remember, it is the center of the kung fu universe!!! Also, I have seen powerful weightlifters who can squat hundreds of pounds melt down after 5-10 minutes of sitting in proper horse stance. You are not training external muscles but internal power. Hope all of this helped. The clearest way to proper technique is to say one of the two best three word phrases in the English language, I don’t know!!! (I love you is the first one, but may not be applicable here…..laughing!!!)>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

Great point BB, the horse stance really takes a lot of mental strength as well as physical. I would say more mental than physical.

On the point of us reflecting our teachers (Sifus). I’ve learnt that I represent him when he’s not here. In KF that is. If I spew bullshit, even though that bullshit came from me, the view is that I learned it from my Sifu. Here and anywhere you go in the Marial world, you are a representative of your school and Sifu. When you train, perform (if that’s what you do) and even when you speak. I think this is an important lesson to learn.
Keep this in mind when talking and posting.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Amen, Black Panta….great point. One thing one of my teachers told me once is that, if he has done his job correctly, if you add together the variable skills of the instructors under the master, they should add up as a whole to the reflection of the skill of the master. Each of us takes the piece we need and run with it. That is why, in our art, the master desires that the disciples under him all get along as much as possible and share!!! Even at competitions, the judges should be able to tell who your teacher is without ever asking who you trained under, if he/she is legit. I am a composite of all three of my teachers, then forming my own sculpture as I take those skills to make my own destiny. Happy New Year.>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

?Mabu? and ?comfortable? are not words I often hear together lol! Then again, that?s just the difference between a low mabu and a high mabu.

Panta, you have your opinion about stance training, I have mine. Meathead asked about proper mabu form, not about how to do mabu with bad knees, even though I did add that stuff about Wushu Knee lol.

Please understand that I am careful when giving advice, which is why I consulted Shaolin Longfist Kung Fu by Dr. Yang Jing Ming, Kung Fu Elements by Shou-Yu Liang and Wen-Ching Wu, and an article on Wushu Knee Syndrome from Inside Kung Fu Magazine by Nick Gracenin and Shane Kachur before posting a reply. According to the article on Wushu Knee Syndrome, knee problems are more likely to occur when a Wushu practitioner does not hold his stance properly, for instance letting the feet drift out of a parallel position in fu hu bu and mabu, or pointing the foot and knee in different directions as in sheun gi bu and tun bu.

I believe that a person is more likely to develop knee problems by NOT holding his/her feet parallel.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

One other point I would like to emphasize on Ma Bu that Wushu, my junior classmate, may disagree with but might be interesting. Due to the more high impact leaps, etc. of modern Wushu, typically, there might be a more deleterious affect upon the knees due to the sudden shock from going from a high airborne technique to landing into a perfect Ma Bu. The sudden shock may have implications in the long term. One thing I have always asked and puzzled over with my current teacher (and one of Wushu’s two masters) is how to root in any good stance while moving?! An interesting quandry, especially if the previous movement was a high one. This could cause a tendency to float in stances, as well as misalignment. I have all three resources Wushu has referred, plus another master and years of experience. Bottom line, the proper positioning is key….also, not slacking off from the proper basics after a few years. No matter how long one is experienced in the art, the basics are always mandatory. Jackie and Jet may do fantastic things, but if you pay close attention, their stance work is still impeccable from years of basics. Similarly, most great masters will still emphasize proper stance work.

Wushu, Nbotary, and I will have the misfortune of working out on a carpeted gym at the school. In my other two schools, it was either outside on the grass/concrete, or on a wooden floor in NYC. Those are much more amenable to healthy joints than carpet. In the school here, one must not only have the proper stance and footwork, but account for more sudden stopping and less ability to rotate quickly with hip, knee, and waist in alignment. This can be tough for awhile and then train outside where things do not grab hold. Just another observation.>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

Some of the landings in Wushu are pretty high impact. But for the most part, so long as the landing is correct, injury can be avoided. It?s also good not to overdo a technique. That is, do 10 reps of Wi Shain Fon Twe landing in mabu, switch sides, and then be done with that technique. When a practitioner does a high impact technique like Wi Shain Fon Twe it is more likely that injury will occur, so it?s necessary to pace oneself. On the other hand, techniques like Ti Twe, Whye Bie, and Nei Bei can be done over and over without a high risk of injury.

Really the best thing to do is to take one?s time and do a technique right. After all, it?s not how much someone practices, but how he practices.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=WushuPadawan001 
Panta, you have your opinion about stance training, I have mine. Meathead asked about proper mabu form, not about how to do mabu with bad knees, even though I did add that stuff about Wushu Knee lol.
[/quote 

Like my buddy Kris (Tease) likes to say. Opinions are like asses, everyone has one and they all stink. I will just say this man, whenever you post something, post it with the thought that your Sifu is going to be reading it.>

Post: nbotary:

[quote=BLACK PANTA Like my buddy Kris (Tease) likes to say. Opinions are like asses, everyone has one and they all stink. I will just say this man, whenever you post something, post it with the thought that your Sifu is going to be reading it.[/quote Panta, you took the words right out of my mouth!>

Post: samurai6string:

just to beat a dead horse a little here (no pun intended…..or is it?) some people are like myslef and have one or more “splay” feet. If my right knee faces forward, that foot shoots out at about a 30 degree angle. If I were to keep my feet parallel in a horse stance, my right knee would be angeled inside by 30 degrees.>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

Good point Panta. Very good. Definitely something I?ll try to keep in mind. Like I?ve said before, I like this forum because I learn something just about every week. I would only ask that you regard me with the same respect I show you. ?wushu okay, please stop givin advice like you know it all.? I hope you?re intention was not to offend in the manner I received this.

I hardly know everything about Gongfu, or Wushu for that matter. But I have spent the last three years training with Madam Wang before her passing and I can say that from studying under her I have a very good knowledge of stances. That is, the proper form, how to train them, and how to avoid injury when training them. Injury especially because I had knee surgery because of improper stance training years ago. I learned the hard way why it is necessary to have proper form and never stray from it (physical/medical abilities permitting).>

Post: graham1:

[quote=The BadBoy Panta you have mentioned Chi and excercises to develop your Chi, so this lead me to a question that has always troubled me. What is Chi?[/quote 

A good deal of what is passed off as expressions of ‘chi’, at a basic level, is the student overcoming his/her reluctance to commit him/herself to putting full speed & power into a technique.

A second level is where a student or teacher gets to a very high level & acquires a strength on mind where they may influence others. An example is where teachers, through autosuggestion, can get students doing all sorts of weird things, with their full knowledge but with an inability to stop themselves. This only works on people similarly minded to the teacher.

A third level does exist, but only in rare circumstances. This is where it gets really weird. When this is exhibited, you’ll usually see practioners scaling walls without the use of ladders or any other form of assistance. Photos have been published in British martial arts magazines showing this.

I remember one incident at a tournament in Birmingham, England in 1979. A member of my club was showing off his athleticism by climbing one of the square-section support pillars in the dance-hall the tournament was being held in. He had his hands holding the reverse edges of the pillar from him & his feet flat on the sides of the pillar & climbed 20 feet/6 metres up to the top. When he got there, he panicked & said that he daren’t move. A man walked through the crowd, & climbed up the pillar, with the palms of his hands flat on the surface nearest to him & the balls of his feet on the same surface. He quickly climbed up beside our helpless friend & told him to hold on to him, which he did. He then turned round so that his head was facing down & scaled back down & onto the floor. After our friend got off him, he disappeared into the crowd & we never saw him again.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

I would like to answer some questions posed here. In Southern Shaolin, BP is right in naming the 5 animals (another name commonly used for them, whether or not agreeable, is choy li fut style). However, there are other styles based on Hunan Shaolin, Wudang, etc. Preying Mantis has 12 systems under it, most commonly 7 star, tong long, six harmony, etc. Eagle claw, bak lum snake, nine birds (shaolin family style I have learned), tiger, etc. Dragon is an actual style consisting of very intensive first step Shaolin boxing, then 13 hand strikes of the dragon (usually with the index and middle fingers in forward knuckle position with the others receded), 13 kicks of the dragon (consecutive kicks resembling 13 heel kicks in a row for practice), the dragon claw slightly more open than the fu jow (tiger) claw, and usually the dragon will walk in a figure 8 pattern where if an opponent steps into either one of the double circle of the eight punishment ensues. A dragon never retreats and usually has learned iron body techniques as well.

In traditional Shaolin, there are 12 animals. Shaolin training invests many years in bodily punishment (I went through seven years of it with my Shaolin master) to develop nei gung, hard gung, body armor, etc. As BP will tell you, the stance training and banging of trees with forearms and legs, slapping each other in the stomach, front rolls length of football fields, hitting each other with full contact body blows by both kicks/punches, etc. Wushu can tell you about my Shaolin master and his training. Wushu took a seminar from him. Punch drunk has also seen him.

In all, true Shaolin training is dying out and being replaced by Shaolin monks who practice Shaolin “wushu” and do some neat parlor tricks. Animal styles are very hard to learn and after all this time I am only now beginning to understand what comes naturally to the animals in nature.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=Bloodybirds In all, true Shaolin training is dying out and being replaced by Shaolin monks who practice Shaolin “wushu” and do some neat parlor tricks.[/quote 

This is true, however I find a sinister reason behind this…namely the Communist chinese government.
btw. check out the Falun Gong thread.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Yes BP!!! Luckily, because of one of my three masters’ association with the recently deceased Madame Wong Ju Rong, we were able to hear a first hand account of the absolutely deleterious affects of the Cultural Revolution and Mao’s attempt to emascalate the true kung fu and Shaolin and hence create “Wushu” which ironically means “the war arts.” My Shaolin master, though not Asian, grew up at the Shaolin temple in Hong Kong from age 3-15 when it was still hard Shaolin. On the mainland, the current abbot (about to start a firestorm here) accedes to the wishes of the Communist government to make it a tourist attraction that presents no threat. Remember our Shaolin history……monks defending against the major dynasties of the time including the Manchus. Well…lol…..the current government is trying to accomplish the same thing. That is why, in traditional Shaolin, Traditional kung fu, etc. the current best teachers are probably either in Hong Kong or North America (sidenote BP and colleagues: isn’t it interesting that since the 1997 takeover the PLA or other reps of the Chinese government have not attempted to water down the traditional kung fu practiced in Hong Kong….could be part of the hands off agreement that the mainland is actually adhering?!).

As always BP, good comments!!>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=Bloodybirds (sidenote BP and colleagues: isn’t it interesting that since the 1997 takeover the PLA or other reps of the Chinese government have not attempted to water down the traditional kung fu practiced in Hong Kong….could be part of the hands off agreement that the mainland is actually adhering?!).
[/quote 

Thanks BB, right back achya

I do find it interesting. Hong Kong is still like a totally seperate state/country. My friends is visiting Beijing and she says she needs a Visa to get into Hong Kong.>

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