Tiger Kung fu
Original Poster: Haas
Forum: Kung Fu Styles, Chinese Martial Arts
Posted On: 31-01-2007, 20:35
Orginal Post: Haas: i was reading a round a bit and got curious what is the aim or strategy of tiger Kung Fu and would it be good vs. Muay thai ??
Tiger kung fu fighters, whether using North, South, black or white versions, seek to overwhelm their adversaries by a sustained flurry of blows from a variety of angles.
Muay Thai fighters have a long record of beating ‘unbeatable’ fighters from other systems, so it would all depend on how good the individual fighters were if it came to a match.
Read zed’s comment on this thread:-
I hope this’ll help you. Good luck!>
to tell the truth zed’s post is what led me to being curious. what i was thinking is if tiger style was a sort of a grabing, squeezing and ripping style (with the hands in the shape of paws). so that when the Nak muay gets you in the clinch u would have easy access to the opponents sholder, head or neck and when that knee comes up you could easly get a mean grip on his lower thigh.
this is theory of cores but i was wondering if thats what tiger was ment for>
In a ring, tiger kung fu would not do much good against a muay thai fighter – gloves negate the tiger claw hand and its grabbing power.
On the street, I am not too sure how the tiger claw would help in the clench. Perhaps one could use it to grab at the kidneys or any loose fat ? but that would leave one completely open to a flurry of those trademark thai knees.>
once u grab his lower thigh tho the knees should stop and i would think the tigerKF guy would have a painful grip and from there he may eaven be able to knee the thai guy in the Groin.>
Getting the chance to actually grab the thighs whist being pummelled by them is the trick….notice its not done often.if at all? :wink:>
[quote=bamboo Getting the chance to actually grab the thighs whist being pummelled by them is the trick….notice its not done often.if at all? :wink:[/quote
….and that, my Lord, is the case for the defence. :wink:>
pray tell do you know anyone who has tried?? have you seen a video of this approch used before ?? of so i would like to see it, and even then it would not prove it cant work ^_^>
[quote=Haas once u grab his lower thigh tho the knees should stop and i would think the tigerKF guy would have a painful grip and from there he may eaven be able to knee the thai guy in the Groin.[/quote
At the risk of this being mis-interpreted…you don’t need to do tiger Kung Fu to grab someone’s thighs…
Before anyone’s head goes charging off track, and so drawing the wriath of the mods out of their special store for taking the topic off track (you know i love you guys, and mean no offence:)). My point is that any martial artist, of any style, or indeed, even someone who hasn’t trained in a martial art can grab someone, it doesn’t exactly go against natural instinct, i’m sure. And, i also suspect that other styles have such techniques in them.>
“At the risk of this being mis-interpreted…you don’t need to do tiger Kung Fu to grab someone’s thighs…”
the idea is that if you train in that style your hands would be a lot stronger for griping (or so I am told) that is the styles so called strength so I was thinking of a way for it to be used against one of the more popular stand up MA’s now days. I dont know a lot about the style, but I would think that a style dedicated to griping among other things would have a stronger grip then the likes of muay thai, boxing ect.>
Probably…seems reasonable enough, but someone can have a stronger grip then others through certain kinds of labour, i’m sure…
I’m not sure how ‘martial art specific’ such a thing is…my point is, that, you asked specifically about how a tiger KF person would fair against a muay thai…i was just pointing out, through your reasoning, presuming it follows through, you’re not just examining the class of ‘tiger KF guys and girls’, they are just a part of that class…oh dear, i think that my mathematical rigour is coming through…
On a side point, i can assure you that i am most definately not in that ‘class’.>
It is apparent that few here understand the general principles of fu jow pai, or tiger claw. I do agree with the assessment that it depends upon the artist but…in general principle, a fu jow practitioner, like a ying jow one, will condition the hand to penetrate skin to the bone and beyond. The fujow, unlike the hungar tiger/crane, uses its tiger five finger to rip and tear the skin into the muscle, bone, tissue. Thus, the practitioner would not merely grab the target (jeez…lol) but lock the fingers in and rip repeatedly. At the same time, being a southern style, its leg techniques would effectively hit low powerfully. A muy thai boxer would be vulnerable to these rips, sweeps, and low attacks when bringing the knee up or elbow across for the thrusts. Also, a fujow, unlike dragon style’s figure eight attacking pattern, will not attack head on but at angles. In traditional tiger crane, the tiger will strike low while the crane strikes high. Just like a muy thai will train shins, and elbows, so will the fu jow train hands for the same destructive purposes. The best locking/grabbing styles of kung fu, generally incorporating the animal plus effective chin na, include northern preying mantis, northern/southern eagle claw, and southern white crane.
Hope this helps. Again, forget the movies and look up artists like Wai Hong, Tak Eng, and the guy from Vanishing Son. Hsieh-Hsieh.
Wushu, you should know better on this one, since you were exposed a little to my Shaolin master’s tiger at the seminar in Austin…maybe he should have shown you further with tiger and dragon.>
I suppose that explains why it is so named ‘tiger’…given what tigers claws do…isn’t it sometimes annoying how you can never find the right emoticon, no matter how much choice you have. lol I suppose it reflects how many varities of expression, there are.>
i found this neat video when looking for Wai Yuen Tong>
Haas, this is different from Wei Hong, the fu jow master who had a school in China town NYC up until recently. This Wei would be in his mid to late 70s by now and Tak Eng is or was his senior until they had a falling out.
I do not know this guy on the rooftop, though interesting against a capoiera practitioner. My guy can be found at www.fujowpai.com. Also go to Google and type in Tak Eng for his info as the senior to Wai Hong.
Hope this helps. They were a sister school to my Ying Jow master’s school in the 80s and 90s (Sigung Leung Shum) along with Frankie Yee’s Hung Gar School (Pedro Cepera Yee and Ty Nunez as some conflicting disciples).
Hope this helps.>
the link didnt work>
It worked when I put in www.fujowpai.com…..let me know or google Wai hong and it will give you the appropriate address. Sorry!>
thats it right ?>
I just got on there to confirm and that address took me right to it!>
BB- With what you wrote in mind and not trying to be a jerk but…
The idea is there but how can you actually train in way to really practice effectively ripping and tearing muscle with a resisting and spontaneous partner?
The timing, force and sheer tenacity needed to tear and rip to the bone of man both clasping and driving your head down and bringing his knees up full force would be incredible. You can practice knees to the head in both practice with gear and for real in the ring, can the same be said for flesh ripping on a real man?
Again, I don’t want to be a jerk but I want to point out both sides of the coin. Getting caught in a clinch can be a horrifying experience.
Bamboo, not a jerk at all my friend…and raising some great points. I have been in clinches before and used both my Shaolin bird and ying jow to neutralize as well as push hands in a real fight. To your point though…lol…first, a fu jow person who is highly trained is not going to allow a muy thai or jujitsu person to clinch him as, frankly, the attempt through a knee thrust, arm clinch, or elbow strike, three main techniques of muy thai or mma, would be met by the techniques I described. However, a good point you raise, and true no matter what style or fight, is the timing, balance, internal/external connectivity, etc. of both proponents. I have seen my Shaolin master fighting at full speed with either dragon or tiger as one tries to grab, grip, or grapple (sorry, liked the g sounds there!) and basically almost rip the opponent’s arm from the socket with a grab/lock/strike to the tendond between the biceps/triceps, the shoulder socket ripping from the tendon/ labrium, etc. I think there are two potential missing concepts here: one conceives the ripping or attacking in 1 or 2d terms against bone or muscle rather than the actual tendon or joint, where true methodologies of ripping, locking, or grabbing should be applied, rather than the other, which is a low level non cavity approach. Agreed, the speed and timing would have to be specific and appropriate, but with true animal masters I have seen it done both here and in Hong Kong. The whole concept of chin na is based upon the set up and quick movement, both feet and hands, to quickly apply at full speed. If one tries to apply any of this without the proper footwork, angle, etc., then ofcourse it will be mitigated and neutralized as you describe.
The muy thai is well versed in body training, but the true Shaolin, not the pretend wushu or the Shaolin in modern day China outside the temple, can readily apply this and is still taught, albeit rare indeed. I know, only because my Shaolin master and my Ying Jow master have done it and exhibited it.>
Oh, Bamboo, as far as the training…when I was learning the true ying jow and later the nine bird from my Shaolin, the exercises in the woods and other training designed to effectively develop one’s hands would initially cause nights of not being able to close the hand, or have skin left from trees, ground, sword banging, etc. or gripping things as they dropped weighing anywhere from ounces to 25 pounds while thrown at you, to you, or using the tiger coils to pull your fingers in 500-1000 times a day etc. Believe me, it takes 3-5 years of daily pain but you can develop the grip and rip to execute the technique. My snake brother, who started at 5 and is now 33, can take a watermelon, and with the tips of his fingers in snake explode down into the watermelon and explode it or cut your forehead with fingertips, and not using nails. I have had it done to me….that is why I practice my bird because snake, dragon, mantis, and tiger are my natural martial enemies.>
Surely that can not be good…i mean the training to get to that stage…it sounds a tad extreme, and it sounds like it could be pretty dangerous, but, maybe i’m just going a bit too far.>
Gazelle, for real Shaolin and kung fu fighters, that is actually normal course of training in the animal styles, not the movie or Wushu Shaolin being propagated right now by people who shave heads, claim to be Chan Buddhists, and then marry and have a good drink after training. Unfortunately, this type of practice is dying out in both Shaolin and traditional kung fu, leaving people who do not know the real fa jing, gripping power, etc. that the real practitioners possessed until, in general, near the end of the last century. There are still a few left but not many!>
thats sad :(>
To be honest, bloodybirds, i have watched so few of those films, and from so long ago, that the only one i can recall is ‘the bulletproof man’, and i only remember that because for a period of time it seemed to be on TV a fair bit while i was flicking around the channels, well, and of course i thought it would be great if one could do that acrobatics, that is, dodging bullets and what not. The point is, as willing as i am to believe things (anything is possible), my rationale can sort of deduce where the line might be, for the most part…nice for the confirmation though:), and of course, a more realistic view of where that line is.
It is a shame that people are forgetting what the human body is/can be capable of under certain training…it’s circumstances like these that make me wonder what exactly have ‘faded out’ throughout the ages time of human culture (like that library that burnt down full of mathematics texts, among other things in Alexandra…it would be great to have seen the knowledge that it contained…i wonder how much was lost for us to rediscover it, or maybe, is still for us to rediscover…).
You said ‘Shaolin and kung fu fighters’, i thought Shaolin did do a form of Kung Fu (is a form)? Would that not mean that Shaoling fall under the same category?>
Gazelle, usually there is a distinction made between the Shaolin animals and other specific styles invented within the confines of the temple and other “traditional” styles such as 7 Star mantis, Ying Jow, etc. that were created outside in other locales of Northern and Southern China. Although somewhat commingled today, there is a parallel but divergent history to some of these styles. There are about 435 traditional styles and many systems under that…i.e. there are 12 systems of preying mantis style including tong long, 7 star, southern, tai chi, etc. that have some unique elements themselves.
The internal systems tai chi, ba gua, and hsing i, along with subs like the five main derivatives of tai chi (chen, wu, wu hao, sun, and yang) came from villages, not Shaolin.>
Thank you:) I know it must get rather tiresome answering questions all the time, if this is so, i apologise, but, you just really know too much:)>
Gazelle…on the contrary, it is fun and makes me confirm my knowledge and look up things if I do not know. So I get to learn right alongside you!!! Yippee!!! Besides, at your age and time of life, you should be asking questions about everything all the time!! Trust me, you learn more that way than any one course you will take in undergrad or postgrad!! My best learning experiences in grad school were the after class discussions with professors and classmates!
Besides, I love the Chinese martial arts!! So, for me, it is just propagating something I love!!>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
[quote=Bloodybirds …claim to be Chan Buddhists, and then marry and have a good drink after training…[/quote
There’s nothing wrong with Ch’an Buddhists marrying or having a drink. There’s actually a fairly large attempt worldwide for consensus among Buddhist spiritual leaders and organizations to allow marriage for monks. The idea is that contemporary Buddhism wants to focus on compassion and lovingkindness, and how can one expect to love the world if we don’t even know the love of one person?
The original inclination against marriage for Buddhist monks and clergy was so that the person would have no distractions in their spiritual journey or further attachments to this world, but people are beginning to understand that they can make spiritual journeys together and (especially in Mahayana sects like Ch’an) escaping attachment to samsara is not nearly as important as aiding others in their enlightenment.
I’d be very happy for a faux-Shaolin monk if he could balance his body on spear tips and then go home to a wife.>
Well, if you put it that way…. :lol:>
But I find most if not all current “worldly” monks to not have the true Shaolin skill but rather the Shaolin wushu propagated outside the temple gates as a tourist attraction in the village. Most, not all, the so called monks in the states these days are this type, not the true monks. As far as marriage, the belief has always been propagated in traditional Chinese studies that expulsion during sex is also expulsion of valuable sexual chi and one who does that will not be able to build the requisite nei gong or qi gong required for the extensive body training required. Personally, I think they just find women a distraction….. :wink:>
Glad to hear it:), so i guess that means i can rest assured that i’m not being a pain in the neck, as i know some people might find:). Always a good thing to know:).
I’m quite aware the amount you can learn with ‘small chats’…it’s a shame the courses aren’t structured so…give me the notes, perhaps a few timetabled bits and pieces to make sure i’m on track, then just have someone who’s willing to discuss bits and pieces with me…suits me 100 times better, infact, after goin through some of the printed notes to my linear algebra course, i’m seriously considering not turning up to the lectures.>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
[quote=Bloodybirds As far as marriage, the belief has always been propagated in traditional Chinese studies that expulsion during sex is also expulsion of valuable sexual chi and one who does that will not be able to build the requisite nei gong or qi gong required for the extensive body training required. Personally, I think they just find women a distraction….. :wink:[/quote
Certain other groups see the “expulsion during sex” as an incredibly empowering event and thus try to make it happen as often as possible. The Western Esoteric Tradition is so odd sometimes. :lol:>
I have trained in Shaolin but, as my esteemed colleague has mentioned, the Western philosophy of expulsion of chi is one that I will have to live with….no dragging a 300 lb rock by my gonads for me!!! Will have to accomplish other internal training!! 8) :wink:>
[quote=Bloodybirds Personally, I think they just find women a distraction….. :wink:[/quote
Indeed, experience has taught me that we can be rather distracting…i think that’s part of our job:)
I think i only managed to follow half of what was mentioned in the past two posts…that is not a hint:)…for once, i think i rather like it that way:)lol>
I am sorry, Gazelle, what were you saying….LOL…another bad male trait….incredible listening skills and easily distracted….that is why my contention is that the best assassins would probably be women!! See Kill Bill! :D>
theres a guy assassin in kill bill ^_^>
Yes, but the backstory of Lucy Liu’s character is the most fascinating to me. Nothing worse than a cold hearted b…. on a mission!!>
lol, yes, powerful women characters are always great to watch, though i haven’t seen kill bill….i’d love to play one like Jinx off the James Bond film that was out the one before this last one, or even the Miranda Frost off the same one…i’m starting to think it was them that helped make the film! lol.>
[quote=Gazelle lol, yes, powerful women characters are always great to watch, though i haven’t seen kill bill….i’d love to play one like Jinx off the James Bond film that was out the one before this last one, or even the Miranda Frost off the same one…i’m starting to think it was them that helped make the film! lol.[/quote
Honor Blackman as Pussy Galore. Cor!!!>
lol. It’s been a while since i’ve seen that one.:) It’s been a while since i’ve seen any of them…seriously, i have to watch some of the older ones soon…it’s really not good for my Bond girl status.>
[quote=Gazelle lol. It’s been a while since i’ve seen that one.:) It’s been a while since i’ve seen any of them…seriously, i have to watch some of the older ones soon…it’s really not good for my Bond girl status.[/quote
I remember the James Bond films from their first time around.>
Really? Cool. I wasn’t alive when some of them were out first time round, i don’t think.>
Post: Tease T Tickle:
Gazelle…? bond girl status…? Did I miss something?
Bloodybirds: Distractions provide opportunities for new training: the training of one’s focus and discipline. Once your task is completed, you can reward yourself by indulging in that distraction ;-)>
Sorry, there’s a joke (well, not really a very funny one) in my family about me being a ‘Bond girl’, not literally (yes, that would be interesting…an actress revealing herself as such on a forum she used for the past year), just because i used to like watching it so much when i was younger, i think my dad was the first to use the term, and then it sort of stuck.>
[quote=Gazelle Sorry, there’s a joke (well, not really a very funny one) in my family about me being a ‘Bond girl’, not literally (yes, that would be interesting…an actress revealing herself as such on a forum she used for the past year), just because i used to like watching it so much when i was younger, i think my dad was the first to use the term, and then it sort of stuck.[/quote
I’m a bit of a bond girl myself…well only on those special weekends when I put on my bright yellow miniskirt and dance to Cyndi Lauper. YOU CAN’T JUDGE ME! :oops:>
[quote=Stazzy [quote=Gazelle Sorry, there’s a joke (well, not really a very funny one) in my family about me being a ‘Bond girl’, not literally (yes, that would be interesting…an actress revealing herself as such on a forum she used for the past year), just because i used to like watching it so much when i was younger, i think my dad was the first to use the term, and then it sort of stuck.[/quote
I’m a bit of a bond girl myself…well only on those special weekends when I put on my bright yellow miniskirt and dance to Cyndi Lauper. YOU CAN’T JUDGE ME! :oops:[/quote
lol. I’d so like to see that!:)>
Stazzy, you never wore anything like that when we trained together….I am so disappointed You seem to be MIA lately…hope things are well….Gazelle, I am curious whether any of your profs use the Socratic method of teaching you over in Europe…..by your manner, and natural curiousity, I hope so!!! I bet you are a sponge!!!>
Socratic method of teaching?>
Oh, i think i see what you mean! I just did a search…
I wish! That would be ace! I so wish they only had a small number of lectures, gave you the notes to go through, an aim for the end of the week with which to be at/what to have done, and then have someone at the end of an email, or a tutorial every week with no more than two people in to ask questions to, and, if you have none, who would formulate things around the area of study that will help build understanding of that area…maybe making use of the Socrates method of teaching too!
The big problem is, i’m not much good at explaining things in person! I’m actually quite hurrendous at times, but, i’ve gradually began to improve, thankfully…there was a time when i could explain hardly anything verbally.
The lecturers are quite happy for you to go up and ask questions, i haven’t yet done so…i’ve only recently been able to concentrate in the darn things (lectures that is), i’m rather sensitive to having a lot of people, sound and whatever about me, and, yes, it wasn’t good in the first term!>