Traditional animal systems

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Traditional animal systems
Original Poster: Tatsukage
Forum: Kung Fu Styles, Chinese Martial Arts
Posted On: 02-10-2006, 18:18

Orginal Post: Tatsukage: Ok, I’ve heard of all these different animal styles, but which are the more “traditional” ones? Or are they all traditional, just at different time periods? I’m familiar with snake, tiger, dragon, mantis, crane, panther, leopard, eagle, and monkey. I’ve heard there are only 5 “true” animal styles, but I wanted to get a better insight from people who actually have studied this more than I.

Post: Tease T Tickle:

I’ll save the bulk of the discussion to Michael and Nick, since they know a lot more than I do on the subject, but the stereotypical canon of the Shaolin Temple (which is what most Westerners think of when they think about kung fu) include crane, dragon, panther, tiger and snake.>

Post: Tatsukage:

Ok, thanks. So, leopard, eagle, monkey, and mantis aren’t as “traditional” as those five?>

Post: samurai6string:

leopard/panther are the same from the itsy bitsy teensy weensy I know. The idea is thinking of a large cat smaller than a tiger which was akin to the lion in our western mind set. So leopard/panther could be thought of as a panther, leopard, jaguar, cougar, etc.>

Post: Stazzy:

I believe the Panther style was created much before the East was ever introduced to the lion. I’m not positive on that, but I’m pretty sure the leopard was originally created as a middle ground between a tiger’s incredible clawing power and a snake’s speed and precision. Check with Bloodybirds on the last part.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Tatsukage Ok, thanks. So, leopard, eagle, monkey, and mantis aren’t as “traditional” as those five?[/quote 

There is no Eagle style that I know of other than Eagle Claw, which is actually older than the Shaolin Temple. Eagle Claw was allegedly developed by a general for training his soldiers, and the Claw refers to the heavy usage of Chin Na techniques, which now obviously pervades much of the other Chinese systems to varying degrees. So, in a sense, Eagle Claw kung fu is about as traditional as it comes, since it has its own lineage going back several centuries, but on the other hand, it may very well be obsolete in and of itself with its more widespread techniques being everywhere else.

Monkey and Mantis are related and were both developed around the same time. Mantis was allegedly developed by some monk at one temple or another (the specifics don’t really matter) because he was having trouble sparring or dueling with other martial artists in the temple’s art(s). After watching a praying mantis ‘fight’ another critter, the monk tried adapting the clinching and use of the forearm in controlling his opponents. Lo and behold, it worked and he fabricated a system based on the older forms but included his mantis grip work. When Monkey was developed, they based the footwork on what had become standard Mantis footwork, and ran everything else from there. Both of these systems are traditional now, because they have their own distinct lineages and such, but once upon a time were quite innovative and departed from tradition.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

First, comments about Ying Jow Pai, one of my three styles. Eagle was invented by Ng Foi (if you want the complete Eagle history, go to www.yingjowpai.com, my eagle master’s site, where a long explanation of history of the style unfolds). Technically, after the Lo Han exercises were translated by Da Mo, animal systems came much later. Mantis, for instance, or Tong Long, is not one of the original five animal styles mentioned elsewhere here. Mantis, eagle, monkey, etc. were actually invented outside the realm of the Shaolin animals and were incorporated at varioust times. For instance, there are 12 systems under the Mantis aegis, including 7 star, taichi mantis, tong long, etc. Monkey has four major systems including sage, stone, etc. Ying jow chin na was combined with the long northern movements and kicks of Northern Shaolin about 15th-16th century to form modern day northern eagle claw, of which there are 78 major forms, not including jow da cum na or the 108 locks. White crane, preying mantis, and eagle claw are probably the best at locking and grabbing techniques incorporated into the animal styles. The snake style is the eagle’s enemy, like dragon style (actually the oldest animal style predating five animal in some beliefs), because its evasiveness and movements counter the locking of the eagle. Remember, the animals imitate the real life attacks/defense of the animals they imitate!!

My Shaolin style, Ba Quen, or Nine birds, is a amalgamated family style of my Shaolin teacher’s teacher’s family. Eventually, animal styles may differ slightly between Chinese provinces. For instance, the Fukien crane is much different than the Southern white crane. The Southern crane’s fa jing emanates from the waist up expressed out through the fingers, while the Northern comes from the feet to the waist to the shoulder to the hands and is usually either a crane beak or crane wings expressed. Southern eagle uses the typical three fingers seen in movies for attacking specific pressure points and ripping while the northern eagle depends upon its locking and grasping hand to succeed.

The current wushu animal styles from China are really nice but not traditional and most do not have practical application as part of Mao’s denigration of the arts to “protect” the peace of the society during the Cultural Revolution.

There is no “best” animal style but be aware that certain animal styles are enemies of each other: very rarely will you find someone learning both dragon and crane, eagle and snake, etc. The only successful combo of this kind that I have seen are snake and crane, crane and ape (hop gar), and hung gar (tiger and crane). Note that all successful combos, including choy li fut with its original five animals, contain the crane as a bridge animal due to its lightness, fa jing, and yin side to the usual hard side of other animals.

Soooo. there are approximately 435 basic animal derivative animal styles or systems that legitimately exist today. Of these, very few are taught in the traditional way as I learned them with the hard hand training.

One other comment: Leopard fist is one of the original five animals….so called panther and lion are not. I personally have never seen “lion” style and know of noone that has performed it publicly or if it even exists as a separate style. Perhaps BP, Bamboo, or someone else can comment here.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

One post note to Tease’s excellent comments: monkey footwork was incorporated for Northern mantis styles, though many mantis practitioners do not know that or do not use the monkey footwork. Usually, southern mantis will run like southern crane, etc, that is a different more narrow horse stance and shorter movements. This is due to the fact that Northern styles were developed in the more agricultural and spacious north while most southern styles adapted to the more crowded conditions and fighting on boats, etc. preponderent in the south part of China.

Shaolin monks would usually work on one or more animal styles and perfect one as their main style. In case of a fight, they would use the others as a cover and only bring out their main style if truly challenged by an opponent. This was to mask the true skills of the Shaolin during the days of the Manchu.>

Post: samurai6string:

perhaps my syntax wasn’t the best, what I was saying was that Tiger has the same implications to the Eastern mind as a Lion does to the western mind, i.e. it is the king of the jungle.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Samurai, excellent point: tiger, like crane, is present in its own system i.e. fu jow pai, in hung gar and hung fut, and until recently the bones were the main ingredient of dit da jow, the main herbal med for bruises and internal hematoma for treatment in training. Unfortunately for us and fortunate for the tiger, this practice was banned and most people use an alcohol derivative as a base now.

Tiger and dragon are very similar, except the Chinese believe that the tiger is unfettered instinct while dragon is the evolution into an instinct with developed wisdom.>

Post: Stazzy:

[quote=Stazzy I believe the Panther style was created much before the East was ever introduced to the lion. I’m not positive on that, but I’m pretty sure the leopard was originally created as a middle ground between a tiger’s incredible clawing power and a snake’s speed and precision. Check with Bloodybirds on the last part.[/quote 

I just reread what I wrote, and I have no idea where I got panther from. I think, or at least I hope, I was trying to type Leopard. How the heck could I get something like that wrong?! 8O Man, I’ve been hit by leopard paw before. :? Sorry about the mix-up.>

Post: setsu nin to:

Here is one of my old posts, maybe it help.

Wu Qin Xi is Five Animal Play and it come by legend from Dharma. These Five Animal Plays include Bear, Crane, Tiger, Ape and Deer. After there were developed much more styles based on different animals, same as Wu Xing Quan.
Wu Xing Quan is Five style combat techniques and includes Crane, Dragon, Snake, Tiger and Leopard.
There are also many others animal styles like Mantis style, Cock style, Eagle style, Swallow style, Dog style, Turtle style, Horse style, Wolf style, Lion style, Elephant style, Rabbit style,
Sometimes different styles or forms use name of same animal so you may find Eagle Claw, Golden Eagle, White Crane, Black Crane…
Most often animal styles are formed in groups, so you may find five animal styles, ten animal styles, 12 animal styles…>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Setsu, some of those animals you mentioned are, in fact, legends and not real fighting styles and in some cases tied to the Chinese zodiac. Normally, one will hear 12 animals of Shaolin, 10 animals of Shaolin, or five animals that later developed into choy li fut and derivatives therein. But there is no real rabbit style, et al. per se. These are symbolic and in some ways part of Chinese superstition stories or magic lessons.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Bloodybirds Setsu, some of those animals you mentioned are, in fact, legends and not real fighting styles and in some cases tied to the Chinese zodiac. Normally, one will hear 12 animals of Shaolin, 10 animals of Shaolin, or five animals that later developed into choy li fut and derivatives therein. But there is no real rabbit style, et al. per se. These are symbolic and in some ways part of Chinese superstition stories or magic lessons.[/quote 

The problem herein lies, however, that at some point in time one of these animals may have been used in a lineage’s teaching and perhaps only remained through history as ‘legend.’ When we have hundreds of lineages with clear pedigrees going back centuries, there is obviously tons of room for other pedigrees and lineages that weren’t fortunate enough to survive. For instance, the tale regarding Bodhidharma bringing the martial arts to China may or may not be true. If there were native styles, they could have incorporated these ‘unreal’ styles and we would never know. That is precisely why I dislike discussions about the animal styles because, in a sense, it’s missing the real story – the lineage of instruction.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Very relevant point Tease….interesting that Chinese systems always emphasize traceable lineage over other styles. One must be able to trace back a few generations. However, some animal styles really are individual forms, or techniques, not complete styles. Drunkard boxing exists as a form in many northern styles, and there is some debate on whether it is a complete style or not….then we get into the discussion of what defines a complete style and what does not? That too may be open to interpretation.>

Post: Tatsukage:

Wow. Thanks for all the helpful info. I didn’t expect to learn as much as I did. I wish that I could have added more input, but it seems that you have most of it covered.>

Post: Hengest:

While we’re on this subject, a few months ago in (I think) Black Belt magazine, there was an article about bat style kung fu. Now, after reading it, I was just about ready to write it off as BS, since it made no reference to a Chinese name for the style (or, if I recall correctly, no Chinese terms at all!). However, has Bloodbirds or anyone else heard of it? If not it’s probably safe to say I can mark it down as bollocks. :D>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Hengest While we’re on this subject, a few months ago in (I think) Black Belt magazine, there was an article about bat style kung fu. Now, after reading it, I was just about ready to write it off as BS, since it made no reference to a Chinese name for the style (or, if I recall correctly, no Chinese terms at all!). However, has Bloodbirds or anyone else heard of it? If not it’s probably safe to say I can mark it down as bollocks. :D[/quote 

I ran a quick internet search and it seems the common source of the recent discussion on various sites regarding a possible “Bat style kung fu” comes from the April 2006 issue of Inside Kung Fu. Although, there was also some mention of a few obscure Hong Kong films that utilized a bat style exponent, most notably some film I never heard of directed by Sammo Hung (Kung Fu Cult Master?).

I also found a link to a website full of information for the Ng family lineage of TCMedicine and martial arts. http://www.ngfamilystyle.com/index.html
Goodness knows whether or not it’s legit, as most of the locations named on the site are in Kentucky, not Fujien provence or somesuch. Since my knowledge of Chinese arts are basic at best, I’ll leave that analysis to Michael, Setsu, Hengest or Wankenstein if he still comes around.

Michael, you mentioned the issue of when we should consider a system a full style in its own right or not. That’s a very good question, I feel, and I think it might warrant its own thread in another subforum here. With the proliferation of Vale Tudo, Jeet Kune Do, MMA/NHB, et Al. schools, it seems there are a good deal of non-Chinese ‘styles’ that clearly incorporate other ‘styles,’ necessitating us to define what makes a style a style.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=Tease T Tickle I ran a quick internet search and it seems the common source of the recent discussion on various sites regarding a possible “Bat style kung fu” comes from the April 2006 issue of Inside Kung Fu. Although, there was also some mention of a few obscure Hong Kong films that utilized a bat style exponent, most notably some film I never heard of directed by Sammo Hung (Kung Fu Cult Master?). [/quote 

Thanks Tease. That may actually be the article I was thinking of. I remember it being in a US magazine, and seeing as Black Belt and Inside Kung Fu are the only two US magazines I buy, it has to be one of the two.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

:lol: :lol: :lol: To my knowledge, there is no bat style in Chinese kung fu, though if there was I would sure like to employ their sonar technique…LOL. Jeez, like when Five Deadly Venoms came out years ago and I was just a beginner and asked one of my masters if centipede was really that deadly…LOL….as far as what constitutes a style, remember according to Bruce Lee JKD was never meant to be a style but rather the antithesis of one! But, and I agree with Tease here, I am very interested in determining, not only in Chinese arts but in others, like the ryu systems of Okinawan karate, when a martial arts group of techniques and forms becomes generally recognized as a style?! My understanding is technique, form, system, and then at high level a style. For instance, like I stated before, there are 12 systems of northern preying mantis, 4 major systems of pek kar monkey, etc.

Would be an interesting discussion.>

Post: Hengest:

[quote=Bloodybirds :lol: :lol: :lol: To my knowledge, there is no bat style in Chinese kung fu, though if there was I would sure like to employ their sonar technique…LOL. Jeez, like when Five Deadly Venoms came out years ago and I was just a beginner and asked one of my masters if centipede was really that deadly…LOL….[/quote 

Of course centipede boxing is that deadly; it was the Five Deadly Venoms. Hello! You’ll be telling me scorpion boxing isn’t real next… :D

Cool, thanks for that Bloody. I figured as much. I’m always dubious when I hear about an animal style for the first time, but then in the past I’ve laughed off things like dog boxing and duck style only to find out that they were real! But then parts of this article just seemed so ridiculous that it was hard to believe. I wish I could show you some of the photos. Priceless!

As for the “when is a style not a style” arguement, it could be a very interesting discussion, though I fear it would give me lots of headaches and sleepless nights…>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Sorry to cause headaches about a topic suggestion, but I will supply the BC Powder!!! Or non-aspirin for those so inclined…..Hengest, since you deny my centipede, my poison toad will now jump all over you…..riiiibbbiittt!!! But first, I must dissect your ancient technique :P :P

I have a general rule….to be legit, a style must be heard of by more than 3 people and have some form of traceable lineage….otherwise, it is dog poop style….it smells!!!>

Post: Tatsukage:

The ancient art of bullshitsu, eh?>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Honorable Tat San, you have heard my plea and invented the latest, deadliest style of poop fu. Thank you, kind sir!!! :lol: :P On another note, saw Fearless on Friday….very good movie and Jet has a message to deliver besides great martial arts. Good to see him in his true element again!! Now, if only the Li/Chan movie actually happens, with hopefully Donnie Yen and Conan Yuen as the bad guys!!!>

Post: Gazelle:

I wish i could read the whole thread at the moment! This is really interesting. Bloodybirds, how the heck did you get to know so much? I know, you’ve been doing this for many years, but still, you seem to keep rolling things off.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Gazelle, I have four great passions: my family, my friends, my finance/politics internationale, and my martial arts!! I have been truly blessed to have had three great masters, competed for a long time to have met other great and reknowned teachers and masters, and I love to read prodigiously!! And, just like in the international discussion realm where my International Eco degree, speaking 3 languages, etc. enables me to have such a great love to study other cultures and history.

At 48, as I am sure the other old timers will tell you, thirst for knowledge, wisdom, and the ability to say “I do not know, teach me” contribute greatly. Finally, one of the things I love about martial arts is that the type of practice, just like a country’s language, reflects so much about how a country and its people feel about themselves and the way they go about protecting against threats domestic and foreign. For instance, Gazelle, sometime study how different cultures view guns, martial arts, their history of self defense personal and otherwise, etc. One can draw some interesting conclusions about Filipinos and their arts, Chinese and their arts, Japanese and their arts, Indonesians and their arts, the different European sword techniques, etc. All are a mirror into how a country views itself.

Just some hints…..ultimately, Gazelle, in my belief the perfect human being is someone with the body of a 25-30 year old and a mind of someone 45-50. Unfortunately, the only ones I know close to that are the great masters I have seen….LOL…..and Hollywood plastique!!!>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Bloodybirds in my belief the perfect human being is someone with the body of a 25-30 year old and a mind of someone 45-50. [/quote 

You’re far too kind. I wouldn’t call me perfect…calling me fucking amazing is all right, though.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Tease, please send a photo, as I am sure the aura of the brain chi will be overwhelming!!! :lol: :wink: Actually, I was speaking about other things….ahahhaha!!!>

Post: Gazelle:

lol. You guys sure put some smiles on my face.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

I can tell by your Avatar, when you are not in DEEP THOUGHTS! There he goes, Teasing us again!!! Makes me laugh when he tickles like that, doth he protest too much? I shall think so! Welcome back home, Gazelle! Doth and thee!!>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Gazelle lol. You guys sure put some smiles on my face.[/quote 

Every time you smile, it makes my heart flutter.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

News flash for football junkies….Terrell Owens tried to commit suicide!!! What a surprise!>

Post: Gazelle:

‘I can tell by your Avatar, when you are not in DEEP THOUGHTS!’

lol. How does that work?

‘Every time you smile, it makes my heart flutter.’

Living up to your name again, i see. :) If you can’t see me, then you can’t know whether or not i am smiling, and, given that i don’t send a post everytime i smile, you can’t know when i smile, therefore how do you know that everytime i smile your heart flutters? Maybe, it is not my smile, maybe you’ve just been running around too much, or something. I can think of some other more witty examples, however, not my style to go there.>

Post: nbotary:

Awwww, c’mon Gazelle – go there, GO THERE!!! :D

Tease, she sent me a picture…

You’re not far off!!! :wink: :D>

Post: Gazelle:

Sorry to diessappoint NB, but, not only is it not my style to go there, i think it will be much more fun for me teasing you and leaving you in the dark.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

NOW you have done it Gazelle…given my sidei an opening by offering to “”leave him in the dark!” Quick, repent and excise before he sees it!!! Damn, too late!! :lol: :lol: :wink: :wink:>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

[quote=Gazelle Living up to your name again, i see. :) If you can’t see me, then you can’t know whether or not i am smiling, and, given that i don’t send a post everytime i smile, you can’t know when i smile, therefore how do you know that everytime i smile your heart flutters? Maybe, it is not my smile, maybe you’ve just been running around too much, or something. I can think of some other more witty examples, however, not my style to go there.[/quote 

:sigh:

Who said I can’t see you? Wait, that sounded bad. Let me rephrase.

I am certain by your class and intelligence, as expressed through this convenient medium of digital conversation, that you are the pinnacle of human beauty: strong-willed, dignified, wise, kind and – of course – more than capable of making a hard-hearted cynic crumble into boyish romanticism. As you exemplify the height of mental seduction, I am more than certain that were I to see your lips curl to meet the corners of your eyes in that divine delight only possible within the celestial spirit of an earthbound goddess, that my heart would cease its regular rhythm and instead palpitate in tune with the harpstrings I am sure you strum. In other words, every time you smile, my heart flutters. In the great cosmos, we are all interconnected, and while I may not be physically capable of visualizing every occurance of such a magnificent display of sublime joy, I can feel through the motions of the world the energies of your excitement – especially when I expound to great extent the flowering forth of my funny side.>

Post: zefff:

LMAO! Been a while since you pee’d in anyones butt huh?…DONT ANSWER THAT!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

P.S. Really, do NOT answer that! :roll: :lol:>

Post: Bloodybirds:

That was gross Zefff!!!! :lol: :cry:>

Post: Gazelle:

[quote=Tease T Tickle [quote=Gazelle Living up to your name again, i see. :) If you can’t see me, then you can’t know whether or not i am smiling, and, given that i don’t send a post everytime i smile, you can’t know when i smile, therefore how do you know that everytime i smile your heart flutters? Maybe, it is not my smile, maybe you’ve just been running around too much, or something. I can think of some other more witty examples, however, not my style to go there.[/quote 

:sigh:

Who said I can’t see you? Wait, that sounded bad. Let me rephrase.

I am certain by your class and intelligence, as expressed through this convenient medium of digital conversation, that you are the pinnacle of human beauty: strong-willed, dignified, wise, kind and – of course – more than capable of making a hard-hearted cynic crumble into boyish romanticism. As you exemplify the height of mental seduction, I am more than certain that were I to see your lips curl to meet the corners of your eyes in that divine delight only possible within the celestial spirit of an earthbound goddess, that my heart would cease its regular rhythm and instead palpitate in tune with the harpstrings I am sure you strum. In other words, every time you smile, my heart flutters. In the great cosmos, we are all interconnected, and while I may not be physically capable of visualizing every occurance of such a magnificent display of sublime joy, I can feel through the motions of the world the energies of your excitement – especially when I expound to great extent the flowering forth of my funny side.[/quote 

I meant that if you could not see me, how can you verify it? In other words, i was speaking from an empirical point of view.

OK, I was suspicious before, now i’m even more so. What’s up? Swallowed two turtle doves, and/or maybe W.B. Yeats early poetry and feeling in a somewhat sweet, expressive mood? I don’t mean to be cruel, i’m just rather curious as to what prompted this behaviour, and i’ve been made suspicious because none of the others have thrown any jibes yet. My money is on that you’ve taken some qualities that you like about me and plucked their strings to the extreme, and having some fun.

I couldn’t think of another way to put it more nicely at this moment.

Zeff, i h ave to agree with Bloodybirds on this one.>

Post: bamboo:

Gazelle,

TTT may be known for his extreme way of writing to tear people apart, but it should be pointed out that “there is no black without white”.
:wink:

And I agree, his Fudo Myoo avatar is most fitting.

-bamboo>

Post: Gazelle:

[quote=bamboo Gazelle,

TTT may be known for his extreme way of writing to tear people apart, but it should be pointed out that “there is no black without white”.
:wink:

And I agree, his Fudo Myoo avatar is most fitting.

-bamboo[/quote 

Oh, no, i realise that, but, i’m just a bit puzzled. Tease has/You have suddenly seemed to have posted a spurt of rather complimentary posts (not that i’m complaining, or anything, just trying to work out what has suddenly spurted it, there you go, that’s put much better, much more how i wanted it to be so…i guess my fingers were struck with a case of shock!), i’m kind of used to him/you posting more logical informative ones.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Gazelle, all logical Vulcans also have t heir illogical side….yin and yang cannot exist without each other…although the allegorical references are cute and funny…..remember his nom de guerre (Tease and Tickle) when receiving from him….this was a tickle, not a tease!!! 8)>

Post: Gazelle:

You have no idea how guilty i felt last night for writing that! I just didn’t quite know how to react. So, this is an apology. I guess i am just rather unaccustomed to having so much all at once, the most i tend to get is the odd mention of being ‘sharp’ or ‘smart’, or wahtever, not quite so much detail all at once. Lesson learned…when stunned, step back for a while, before doing anything, there is absolutely no rush to respond. Tease, i am really sorry.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

I’ve been laughing for a solid twenty minutes.

Let me try to keep this as organized as possible…we’ll go by poster.

Zefff: I cannot believe that you remembered that! “How do you know when your woman really loves you? When she asks you to pee in her butt.” Classic, absolutely classic. Too bad, the guy I picked that phrase up from turned into a huge douchebag and doesn’t call or see his friends anymore. Moving along.

Bamboo: Thanks for the compliments on my new avatar. However, I’m not entirely sure that this isn’t another case of me tearing somebody apart. Perhaps there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Bloody: The highest manifestation of the yin and yang duality is when no duality is apparant at all. I am not being anything other than what I always am, nor am I doing anything other than what I always do. And, by the way, when done right a tickle can be quite a tease.

Gazelle: Don’t feel bad about anything. The recent trend of gushy, melodramatic compliments is not an indication of anything new, different or changed within me. I’m still the same Kris. Nor was I attempting to reveal anything secret. Don’t take this too seriously, it may hurt your head to do so. On second thought, maybe you should take it seriously. If it flusters or confuses you enough, it may help you understand yourself.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Amen Tease….always trying to remember the duality nature of things….LOL…. 8) :cry:>

Post: Gazelle:

Oh, i always like being confused! Weird as that sounds. Being confused means you’ve got to find your way through something…always end up learning something. And, i have to say, that was quite the learning experience! I’m just glad i didn’t ‘ruffle any feathers’, so to speak.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

I don’t have feathers to ruffle. I’m human. :roll:

:lol:>

Post: Gazelle:

It’s an expression! :D And you know what i mean. lol>

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