Wing Chun Q&A

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Wing Chun Q&A
Original Poster: EvilScott
Forum: Kung Fu Styles, Chinese Martial Arts
Posted On: 25-01-2007, 10:53

Orginal Post: EvilScott: Here it is – the time to ask everything you ever wanted to know but were afraid to ask about Wing Chun. I invite other WC users to contribute, but remind all readers that there are so many WC lineages that training methods and such can differ radically from lineage to lineage. I train Traditional Lineage (technically – its kind of a mix but closest to this) under Sigong Jose Crescione.

Some questions you might wanna ask:

Principles?
Chi Sao? How/When/Why/etc
WC forms?
WC footwork?
WC hands?
Dim Mak? <- I got good stuff on this from Sigong Crescione
What it looks like in combat?
Cross training?
Iron palm training?

I’ll answer just about anything you want. ASK AWAY!

Post: Umy:

Its great to see another Q&A thread bro, best way of learning specific things :wink:

I have a question for you, where exactly does the power come from in a wing chun straight punch? I know its a pretty wide question but I was just wondering the basic principles behind the movement and why you guys throw it the way you do.

Also are there any wing chun blocks that could be applied with heavy gloves on?

Thanks bro,

Umy>

Post: zefff:

There is no such thing as a block in WC really TBH but all of the WC parries can be applied with gloves on. Where we lose out is after the parry you cant do much more to capitalise on the contact because we would have no fingers and wrist free to manipulate the situation to our advantage.>

Post: The BadBoy:

When I hear talk of wing chun I always hear about structure. Could you please explain to me what this wing chun structure is and what makes it so important to what you gusy do?>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=0o~KiNg*UmY~o0 Its great to see another Q&A thread bro, best way of learning specific things :wink: [/quote 

Thanks man, got the idea from you! I learned a lot in your Boxing Q&A.

[quote=0o~KiNg*UmY~o0 
I have a question for you, where exactly does the power come from in a wing chun straight punch? I know its a pretty wide question but I was just wondering the basic principles behind the movement and why you guys throw it the way you do.[/quote 

The WC straight punch lines up the bones in your arm and uses the elbow pushing to generate power. If you want a POWER punch than you usually shift and throw your hip and leg into it.

WC Straight also is there because it obeys a principle of WC – simultaneous attack and defense. WC is about guarding your center (you always face the attack with your body, moving your center to cover the attack) and the WC straight keeps the center occupied. It it is also the shortest distance between two point, and thus can be executed fastest. Combined with WC idea of constant forward motion and it can be a pretty evil punch. :twisted:

[quote=0o~KiNg*UmY~o0 
Also are there any wing chun blocks that could be applied with heavy gloves on?[/quote 

Great question – there are many “blocks” that can be done with heavy gloves on. Fook Sao controls the forward energy of the opponents punch with a wrist and elbow positioning that makes it cross past your opposite shoulder. Sigong Crescione showed us a way boxers use this to set up uppercut when getting hit with body blows. You could also do Tan Sao (though a heavy glove would block your vision) and Biu Sao easily (Biu Sao might be hard if your wrists are wrapped – you turn your wrists to the inside to use your triceps).>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=The BadBoy When I hear talk of wing chun I always hear about structure. Could you please explain to me what this wing chun structure is and what makes it so important to what you gusy do?[/quote 

Structure is head to toe. Proper structure is a way to set you your feet, legs, spine, head, elbows, hands, etc in such a way that it is making the most efficient use of the mechanical energy you harness.

If done properly, the WC neutral horse stance feels like you have a gyroscope in your pelvis. You can explode forward or back VERY quickly, and the side and front stances are all derivatives of this.

edit: A little bit of elaboration on the stance. You want you feet facing inwards slightly, a little bit more than a shoulder distance apart. Knees bent inwards, slightly, spine erect, pelvis tilted in JUST A TAD. The way to check yourself is feel where the weight is on your feet. It should be right at the center of your arch, and you should feel this weird equilibrium in your pelvis that is a mix between “about to fall” and “perfectly stable”. If you are fed force you sink and feed the force downward or in another direction.

WC elbows should never come more than a fist and a half distance close to your torso, and in most WC movements elbows are kept close to the center to protect yourself and generate power without winding up.

WC hands are very subtle. A good example is Biu Sao – stick your hand out straight with a slightly bent elbow. The idea here is you face an incoming haymaker or wide strike and use your other hand to strike the opponent. The movement of Biu Sao is the hand SHOOTS forward straight, and the body moves so it faces the strike, moving forward possibly. If the blow is too strong we train Biu Sao to collapse into Lap Sao where the attacking limb is grabbed and pulled towards us (but not into us).

What many people miss about Biu Sao is the hand position. It isn’t just an arm block: hold your hand straight out. Feel which muscles are being used. Your hand should be parallel with the ground, palm down. Now turn your hand slightly to the left, with your palm still down (assuming you use your right hand). Feel your triceps kick in? A simple wrist movement adds another muscle to the movement, and this kind of thing is EVERYWHERE in WC.>

Post: bamboo:

I have seen the “reverse palm strike” used when watching chi sau, can you explain better the principle behind it as it seems like a difficult strike to use.

Thanks,

bamboo>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=bamboo I have seen the “reverse palm strike” used when watching chi sau, can you explain better the principle behind it as it seems like a difficult strike to use.[/quote 

Reverse palm strike? Like backhanding someone? Or attacking with the palm facing sideways?>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

Oh yeah scott speaking of side of hands, Do you all use/train in knife hands a lot. Or is it just a nice to know kinda thing? I know the general philosophy behind WC (very general at that, nothing extensive at all). And could you tell us a little about Dim Mak aswell?>

Post: TKDman:

Have there ever been any Wing Chunners in the UFC. From the limited number of them I’ve seen, I haven’t seen one. If there haven’t been, why not? Is it because they don’t have to prove anything? (compliment, not at all derogatory) If there have been, ignore that question and possibly answer this one. Can Tae kwon do and Wing chun be mixed effectively? Two different ranges of fighting can be helpful but are the philosophies so different that it can’t be done? I only ask because in a couple months I’ll be going to college and this college has a place on campus where they teach Wing Chun. Thanks for your answeres>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I’m not Scott, but I’ll see what I can do :lol:

[quote=BLACK PANTA Oh yeah scott speaking of side of hands, Do you all use/train in knife hands a lot. Or is it just a nice to know kinda thing? I know the general philosophy behind WC (very general at that, nothing extensive at all).[/quote 

The way I’ve learned it we strike with just about all parts of the hand/arm. If by knife hand you mean simply striking with the side of the hand, then there are plenty of times when you’ll see someone strike (especially to the chest or throat) with the entire side of the forearm/hand and use a fook sao movement to put extra power into it. This movement can be done at extremely close range and has great stopping power. If you mean in the sense of a “karate chop”, I’ve never seen one done, but at the highest levels Wing Chun is more of a way of fighting than a collection of any particular techniques, so it’s entirely possible that someone using Wing Chun might use such a strike.

TKDman: Wing Chun is extremely versatile. In my opinion it mixes extremely well with most arts, partly because it specializes in a range that most arts neglect, and partly because it’s very broad in its applications. The biggest conflict I see would be between the TKD stance and Wing Chun structure, but plenty of people use Muay Thai at kicking range and Wing Chun at close range, so I don’t see why it couldn’t work; on the contrary I think it would do a lot to cover some of TKD’s biggest weaknesses.>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
bamboo wrote:
I have seen the “reverse palm strike” used when watching chi sau, can you explain better the principle behind it as it seems like a difficult strike to use.

Evilscott wrote:
Reverse palm strike? Like backhanding someone? Or attacking with the palm facing sideways?

Had to look it up, but it seems to be in Sui Lim Tao, the palm is facing up, the hand looks very relaxed, the other fist is chambered. Remember, I could be very well be wrong as to what I saw.

-bamboo>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=bamboo Had to look it up, but it seems to be in Sui Lim Tao, the palm is facing up, the hand looks very relaxed, the other fist is chambered. Remember, I could be very well be wrong as to what I saw.[/quote 

Ah! Now I know what you’re talking about. The closest we get is the lowest leaf of the plum flower. The plum flower has 5 petals which each can be a palm strike: one straight up, two diagonally (either side) up, and two diagonal (either side) down. The underhand palm strike changes to different strikes in different SLTs, but even those who use is don’t use the strike much.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Now I’m confused; I thought he was describing a Tan Sao :?>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=BLACK PANTA Oh yeah scott speaking of side of hands, Do you all use/train in knife hands a lot. Or is it just a nice to know kinda thing? I know the general philosophy behind WC (very general at that, nothing extensive at all). [/quote 

Knife hands typically come in at an angle, which we don’t do much of in WC (linear striking is an important principle). Just because WC doesn’t have it in its curriculum doesn’t mean people who train WC can’t integrate it though. A “pure” WC practioner, however, will probably avoid knife hands.

[quote=BLACK PANTA And could you tell us a little about Dim Mak aswell?[/quote 

Sigong Crescione taught us all quite a bit about the infamous Dim Mak. He pushed all the mystical stuff aside and taught us in medical and muscular-skeleton terms.

Basically Dim Mak is pressure point striking. Pressure points are traditionally “on/off ramps” onto “chi highways” that travel around your body called meridians. What pressure points ACTUALLY are, are vunerable points in the human anatomy. Places where nerves are close to the surface, etc.

Dim Mak points can be on top of eachother – there are MANY points but most aren’t a big deal. If you hit just one point it hurts a bit, two points and it hurts a LOT, three points and it hurts a LOT. Four or more and you can cause unconciousness and eventual death by shock. Some points (ones that are commonly pointed out as pressure points) have 3 different meridian intersections on one spot – these are the most effective.

Sigong Crescione has put a lifetime of work into understanding and analyzing Dim Mak, and I encourage you to read his essays on it – I could never explain this enough to do justice to Dim Mak or Sigong’s work.

http://www.drjohnsot.com/kungfu.html Here is his site.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=BLACK PANTA Oh yeah scott speaking of side of hands, Do you all use/train in knife hands a lot. Or is it just a nice to know kinda thing? I know the general philosophy behind WC (very general at that, nothing extensive at all). [/quote 

Knife hands typically come in at an angle, which we don’t do much of in WC (linear striking is an important principle). Just because WC doesn’t have it in its curriculum doesn’t mean people who train WC can’t integrate it though. A “pure” WC practioner, however, will probably avoid knife hands.

[quote=BLACK PANTA And could you tell us a little about Dim Mak aswell?[/quote 

Sigong Crescione taught us all quite a bit about the infamous Dim Mak. He pushed all the mystical stuff aside and taught us in medical and muscular-skeleton terms.

Basically Dim Mak is pressure point striking. Pressure points are traditionally “on/off ramps” onto “chi highways” that travel around your body called meridians. What pressure points ACTUALLY are, are vunerable points in the human anatomy. Places where nerves are close to the surface, etc.

Dim Mak points can be on top of eachother – there are MANY points but most aren’t a big deal. If you hit just one point it hurts a bit, two points and it hurts a LOT, three points and it hurts a LOT. Four or more and you can cause unconciousness and eventual death by shock. Some points (ones that are commonly pointed out as pressure points) have 3 different meridian intersections on one spot – these are the most effective.

Sigong Crescione has put a lifetime of work into understanding and analyzing Dim Mak, and I encourage you to read his essays on it – I could never explain this enough to do justice to Dim Mak or Sigong’s work.

http://www.drjohnsot.com/kungfu.html Here is his site.>

Post: bamboo:

Is Chin Na part of the wing chun curriculum?

-bamboo>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=bamboo Is Chin Na part of the wing chun curriculum?[/quote 

Nope, but we have a Sifu who is fairly well versed in it. You might think it would fit right in with WC but WCers aren’t very grabby – it restricts our movement.>

Post: dscott:

I have to say, EvilScott, you sound very knowledgable on this subject. How long have you been studying WC?>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

Oh okay there is basic pressure point training going on for me right now. I will be getting into the more advanced stuff in the future. God Willing. Thanks for the site man I will put it in my favourites and check it out. Seeing that WC is a Shaolin style, I doubt I will find any differences between our arts, however your philosophy in the art is still very interesting. For instance the no block but deflect/re direct philosophy. I must say I love doing the Chi Sau drills with my Sifu and in my school. Really developes my sensitivity.>

Post: bamboo:

Sorry for my ignorance, but would you know what school of kung fu practices chin na?

bamboo>

Post: zaius:

[quote=EvilScott [quote=bamboo Had to look it up, but it seems to be in Sui Lim Tao, the palm is facing up, the hand looks very relaxed, the other fist is chambered. Remember, I could be very well be wrong as to what I saw.[/quote 

Ah! Now I know what you’re talking about. The closest we get is the lowest leaf of the plum flower. The plum flower has 5 petals which each can be a palm strike: one straight up, two diagonally (either side) up, and two diagonal (either side) down. The underhand palm strike changes to different strikes in different SLTs, but even those who use is don’t use the strike much.[/quote 

i’m with gong sao… i think he’s talking about the tan sao.

evilscott, can you please elaborate on this plum flower analogy? are you refering to having a fixed elbow and producing the tan, jum, wu, quan, gan sao? all possible with a fixed elbow?>

Post: bamboo:

O.k. much searching through books only to find you guys spelled it out for me. It is tan sao.

How is a strike like this used? Is it after a parry or deflection? Its a very interesting looking technique.

thanks guys, :)

bamboo>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I think Tan Sao means “dispersing hand”, although I’m not sure. I would say it’s one of the most important moves in Wing Chun, and it has a myriad of uses. The most basic I would say is to block a roundhouse type punch; after you block it’s easy to turn the hand over and pull on his arm while punching with the other hand to off balance him. This works especially well if you pivot into the punch, which strikes with more power and pulls your opponent harder. However, it can also be used as a strike, like an inverted finger jab, to cut into the centerline while your opponent attacks on the outside. It’s a good strike to target soft areas such as the eyes and throat with; I wouldn’t attack anything else with it though I don’t think. Basically, in my opinion all of the hands in Wing Chun are just different means of controlling the center. Tan Sao is a very direct method; it just cuts straight in and with proper structure is very strong. It can also be done at different levels to strike different areas or block different types of strikes, and it’s easy to flip it into a Bong Sao, which I believe translates to “wing arm” and is the one Bruce Lee is doing in Zaius’ avatar. If you have a Tan Sao out and are making contact with your opponent and feel him start to attack with that arm, you simply switch to Bong Sao and deflect the attack.

Note: the Wing Chun that I study is neither pure Wing Chun nor pure Yip Man style; in fact, I think it is at least as much influenced by Pan Nam as it is by Yip Man. It’s also mixed with Bak Mei, so if I’m giving applications/answers that don’t coincide with normal Wing Chun applications or logic, that’s why.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=dscott I have to say, EvilScott, you sound very knowledgable on this subject. How long have you been studying WC?[/quote 

I’ve done MA in some form for most of my life, though the length of time for Wing Chun is not long – almots a year now.

Intensity of study is high though: last summer I did 20 hours a week (4 days of 5 hours each) and during the school year I do about 10 hours a week.

I’ve also been to some seminars and spent a lot of extra time with my Sifu learning lots of different things.

edit: Gong handled the Tan Sao question pretty well; I don’t have anything to add.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=zaius evilscott, can you please elaborate on this plum flower analogy?[/quote 

Plum flower looks like this:

…..X…..
..X….X..
…X..X…

X’s are petals. Each petal is an angle of a palm strike, with the fingers pointing outward from the center of the flower.>

Post: bamboo:

Excellent posts guys!

Thank you very much for the more than apt descriptions.

bamboo>

Post: NeverMan:

Have you ever sparred with other MAists from different styles? If so, which ones and what did you think about WCs effectiveness against certain styles or all styles or whatever. Just a general question, this is not intended to start a versus thread.>

Post: monkeypalm:

can i have a go at answering these or is it evilscott’s thread? :)>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=NeverMan Have you ever sparred with other MAists from different styles? If so, which ones and what did you think about WCs effectiveness against certain styles or all styles or whatever. Just a general question, this is not intended to start a versus thread.[/quote 

I have sparred a BJJer and got my ass handed to me – that was when I started my personal groundwork studying – if I sparred him again he’d have a run for his money. My roomie is a wrestler and knows how to throw a punch and take a punch so he’s a pretty good opponent. WC works well on him if you keep it SIMPLE. Pak Da or Lap Da is enough for an opening hit, and Biu Da becomes a very close, personal friend. I played around with some TKD guys but they gave up quick when I kept closing the gap between us. Sparred some Shotokan dudes, a Hapkido chick, and a “Ninjutsu” (dunno what kind) dude and were equally unimpressed.

Simple stuff like pushing the arm down and sneaking a punch or kicking their leg to stop their movement so I could smack them was stuff they just weren’t used to encountering. None of these people were high quality fighters, but the principles and relfexes trained by WC all worked for me. :mrgreen:>

Post: NeverMan:

Do you feel that if you practiced more against grapplers that you could use WC techniques to avoid going to the ground? Or getting grappled?

Or do you feel that grappling is an aspect of fighting that WC can’t overcome and cross training is needed?>

Post: monkeypalm:

the subject of WC versus grappling… while some WC principles can be applied on the ground, if you are going to fight a grappler or compete in MMA you need to learn some separate form of groundfighting. For street defence, i dont think it is necessary if you are a WC person to combine with another art, unless you feel like it!

if i may be so bold i would like to repost some points i made a while ago about wing chun. its quite long but bear with me!

One of the main principles or ideas behind wing chun is that of relaxation. We simply don?t punch and kick like boxers or muay thai or karateka. We try to relax each and every muscle in our body in order to achieve maximum power. Why? I hear you cry. Right now you have an image in your head of a huge-shouldered boxer absolutely demolishing a heavy-bag, and a skinny hunched over kung fu guy hitting a pad like he was pickin? daisies, and here?s me telling you that the second guy is hitting harder. Well, he ain?t. In a few years time though, number one will be getting old and tired, maintaining training is going to be harder and harder, and number two will be relaxing more, learning not to rely on his muscles, and he will be getting more and more powerful. Now, why bother relaxing at all? It?s a valid question. No doubt hurling all your strength into a person or training bag is going to hurt them. A lot. But what if I told you you could get the same power by just relaxing and focusing? And the better you relaxed, the more powerful you would be? Have you ever stubbed your toe or walked straight into anything by accident? Notice just how hard you actually wham yourself? That?s because you are relaxed. Ever tried to lift up your friend who has passed out on the couch? Doesn?t he way about 17 tonnes more than usual? That?s because his whole body is relaxed. Now, through training and focus, you can achieve that kind of relaxation in your body and link it up together, then throw that at your opponent. Very powerful. That?s how relaxation helps you to generate more power. It can also help you to absorb things into your structure. By that, I don?t mean absorbing punches with your face. I mean that you can intercept things coming towards you, and by relaxing, they won?t affect you. For example, someone throws a hooking punch. Intercepting this punch with a relaxed but stable structure will cause the person throwing the punch to bounce off. Its hard to explain in words and much easier to demonstrate. A relaxed structure can maintain its shape and movement even under intense pressure (with a lot of training). Once you become very relaxed, people cannot affect your balance. Any force that they apply to you will be reflected straight back into them. This translates well into punching, kicking and moving, as each of your movements will have behind them this relaxed structure, and acceleration will give you power.

By relaxed, I don?t mean weak or sloppy. I mean not tensed up, not pushing, not locking joints in place. A Wing chun person will achieve power by accelerating their body into you, simply using the arms as a delivery mechanism. Not much force is generated in the arm itself, rather it is the centre of the body shifting towards you. This leads to a very focused and stable kind of force which is hard to defend against.

The nature of force is that it needs a hard surface to react against, in order for it to be felt. We have force in our hands, but we do not feel it constantly? only when we push against a wall, or grasp something in our hands, then do we feel a force acting on us and only then does it affect us. If we punch somebody, we feel the force in our hand as it makes contact. If we are tense, then the force has something to react to, and if the force we are feeling is greater than the force we are applying, then we will in fact receive more force as a reaction than our opponent. If we punch someone big, or as a better example, a wall bag (which is rooted firmly to the wall, which is rooted firmly in the ground), then if we are tense, we will bounce off. So, relaxed muscles and correct alignment means that the force that we feel/receive as we punch/touch something, travels into our hand, down our arm, spine, legs, then into the ground, where we feel our feet pushing harder on the ground. This is what we are aiming for. However if we have for example a tense forearm, the reactant force from the punch/ push will react against the hard muscle there, and we will feel it, and be rocked backwards. If we have tense shoulders, the force will travel there and react with the shoulder, pushing it backwards. If we are relaxed everywhere except our thighs, the force will react with the hard muscles in our thighs and we will stagger backwards. The point is, we should have no unnecessary tense muscles in our body, so that the resultant force from our strike travels around our body and finds no hard surfaces/objects to react against, except the floor through contact with our feet. This has the effect of making us heavier, adding more power to our strikes. In fact a surprising result of this, at the higher levels in practitioners such as Chu Shong Tin, is that as soon as contact is made, the opponent becomes lighter and the exponent becomes heavier. The opponent finds the more force he applies, the lighter and weaker he becomes, and the heavier and stronger the exponent becomes. The harder you try, the easier it becomes for Chu Shong Tin to defend himself against you. Another factor leading on from this is that it requires less and less force to overcome the opponent of unbalance them, as they become lighter and you become heavier, so only small movements and easy strikes can seriously affect the opponent.

I must stress that these things are mostly relevant when fighting somebody bigger than you, because if you are significantly bigger or stronger than your opponent it will be fairly easy for you and you wont need to concentrate so much on these things.

Another important thing in wing chun, and one of the things that makes it effective, is that of structure. There are a few basic checks of structure, such as maintaining open angles in your arms and legs and having a straight back, but they are much more detailed than that. The best angle in your arm is the position where it can absorb the most force comfortably, and the biceps and the triceps are both equally as relaxed. It?s a very strong structure and forms most of the shapes a wing chun person will attack you with. The arm should remain relaxed into the shoulder joint, where it can be supported by your body structure, rather than coming up or out of the joint, whereupon you need to engage unnecessary muscles just to keep it working. Relax it back into the shoulder and it is free to rotate and absorb force. Next is the spine, which needs to be reasonably straight or at least aligned. That way, pressure coming into your arms at the point of contact can travel down your relaxed arms and joints, into your spine, down the spine, into the legs and into the floor, where it will effectively make you heavier as it pushes you down into the floor. (This greatly increases the force you can throw around.) The hips need to be aligned with the knees, but not locked in place, and the toes point in to the point where you would punch. The whole stance is designed as a tool to absorb force, deliver force and focus force to one point. Any body who dismisses the stance as seen in the Siu Nim Tao form in favour for a side on stance in fighting is doing themselves a great injustice.

Once you have structure and alignment and relaxation, next comes focus. This is what some schools call forward force, I prefer to call it focus or intention. Without pushing, all of our structure is focused to one point on our opponent and we rotate or move around any obstacle until we feel we can crash through. OF course if we are very good and have good basics we can crash through at almost any time. Think of someone trying to get through a locked door? if they are leaning on it or pushing it with all their might, should someone suddenly open the door they will fall flat on their face. That?s what we don?t want and that?s why we don?t push. Rather, we focus at a target and should the opening present itself, or we decide that we can break through without breaking our structure, we shift into it.

Focus also serves to infuse the spirit into the body, or make the movements less reliant on muscle and more reliant on the mind. Eventually your mind will be present in your whole body, doing the correct movements automatically and instantly.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=NeverMan Do you feel that if you practiced more against grapplers that you could use WC techniques to avoid going to the ground? Or getting grappled?

Or do you feel that grappling is an aspect of fighting that WC can’t overcome and cross training is needed?[/quote 

Use your full side step + Gum Sao to avoid shoots. Learn how to sprawl and how to pull off a crossface.

If WCer has the chance to engage first, grappler will have a hard time because a good WCer will take his balance first thing.

I personally do some individual study of groundfighting – nothing special but its enough to survive an encounter with a wrestler or mid level BJJer.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=monkeypalm can i have a go at answering these or is it evilscott’s thread? :)[/quote 

As I stated in the initial post to start the thread, other WCers are welcome to post their answers. Readers should be aware that between different WCers answers will differ though.>

Post: monkeypalm:

cool, we can all learn something… it would be boring if we all said the same thing!

Quote:
Use your full side step + Gum Sao to avoid shoots. Learn how to sprawl and how to pull off a crossface.

thats a tactic i have heard too, as well as attempting to knee or elbow whoever is coming in. i think the chances of stopping a takedown from a determined, skilled grappler are quite small unless you are some sort of wing chun magician.

sprawling and striking to the back of the head or neck seem fairly harsh to me to use in a tournement, but i guess could be used in a serious self defence situation, however what are the chances of meeting a skilled grappler on the street? id probably make friends with them and swap theories…>

Post: lakan_sampu:

pppol!!!..

what on earth is Chi Sau? I have seen it always here and I cannot relate.I do Mano-Mano in Kombatan and as I’ve watched some WC videos, I can see certain similarities because GM Presas integrated some VERY USEFUL WC aspects into Mano Mano although I don’t know exactly what are those aspects. I am in a GREAT IGNORANCE here although I can see that WC seems to be extensive on short range and centerline fighting. I cannot understance the stance. The seemingly “flashy” (at least for me) hand movements of WC looks a little like our pali-palit drills where PersonA strikes and the other blocks and PersonB blocks.Then PersonB strikes then PersonA blocks and the cycle goes on and on although we do also kickings while doing palit-palit drills.>

Post: lakan_sampu:

sorry, wrong thing, I’ll repeat my post here…

what on earth is Chi Sau? I have seen it always here and I cannot relate.I do Mano-Mano in Kombatan and as I’ve watched some WC videos, I can see certain similarities because GM Presas integrated some VERY USEFUL WC aspects into Mano Mano although I don’t know exactly what are those aspects. I am in a GREAT IGNORANCE here although I can see that WC seems to be extensive on short range and centerline fighting. I cannot understance the stance. The seemingly “flashy” (at least for me) hand movements of WC looks a little like our pali-palit drills where PersonA strikes and PersonB blocks.Then PersonB strikes then PersonA blocks and the cycle goes on and on although we do also kickings while doing palit-palit drills.>

Post: zefff:

———————————————————————-
“Knife hands typically come in at an angle, which we don’t do much of in WC (linear striking is an important principle). Just because WC doesn’t have it in its curriculum doesn’t mean people who train WC can’t integrate it though. A “pure” WC practioner, however, will probably avoid knife hands.”
———————————————————————-

Except for emergency technique, although applied in an entirely different manner. It is all in the 3rd form.

Although I dont know dim mak I think the principles behind its applications in combat must follow along with other specialist technique. Meaning to be used only if neccessary and if the oportunity presents itself, the same as is for chi nah. You cannot seek out whats not apparent…but I guess you can reveal a target with manoevers that determine set responses. If you know wot I mean. :| :mrgreen:>

Post: monkeypalm:

In the first form where you take both your arms out to the side and then back in? Thats considered a knife hand strike where i train. Not very practical but there all the same.
As for a knife hand straight forwards… its the first movement of siu nim tao. What i mean is it is the same as a punch, same as a tan sau. its the mechanics of the body and arm that are important, not the shape of the tool at the end, just as long as it does not buckle on impact.
Regarding dim mak… i once read it that the major places that are susceptible to the most damage (forehead, eyes, nose, lips/teeth,chin,throat, sternum, guts, genitals) all lie on the centreline… so attacking the centre is all the dim mak you need in wing chun.

li siao lung, you seem a little confused about wing chun… the stance is a way of standing to absorb and deliver a lot of force and is very effective (although it can look strange to someone who has not had it explained and demonstrated to them)

chi sau is not a set series of movements (block/strike.) aside from the basic rolling movements, the rest is organic and flowing, with the point being to improve your basic qualities of good stance, good structure, staying relaxed and staying focused. These make any technique you might do better.>

Post: zefff:

[quote=monkeypalm In the first form where you take both your arms out to the side and then back in? Thats considered a knife hand strike where i train. Not very practical but there all the same.
As for a knife hand straight forwards… its the first movement of siu nim tao. What i mean is it is the same as a punch, same as a tan sau. its the mechanics of the body and arm that are important, not the shape of the tool at the end, just as long as it does not buckle on impact.
Regarding dim mak… i once read it that the major places that are susceptible to the most damage (forehead, eyes, nose, lips/teeth,chin,throat, sternum, guts, genitals) all lie on the centreline… so attacking the centre is all the dim mak you need in wing chun.
[/quote 

doh! forgot about the fak sau :roll:

good point about centre line targets Monkey. Respect. Its the plain obvious things we overlook. :D>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
By relaxed, I don?t mean weak or sloppy. I mean not tensed up, not pushing, not locking joints in place. A Wing chun person will achieve power by accelerating their body into you, simply using the arms as a delivery mechanism. Not much force is generated in the arm itself, rather it is the centre of the body shifting towards you. This leads to a very focused and stable kind of force which is hard to defend against.

In the japanese arts, this is called “extension” and is the basis of aikido’s “irimi” or entering throws.

You guys are full of great explanations, thanks very much, I am really having my eyes opened to the similarities between our arts as well as the differences that I will one day want to learn.

cheers!

bamboo>

Post: zefff:

Im gonna ask a question! :mrgreen: let me give you the background…

…last night I was doin some chi sau with a really good partner. He is advanced compared to me and I would compare him with a mudslide. His chi sau continues to slowly roll downhill whilst consuming everything before it. He moves like a mudslide would with constant mass and no variation in force. Its not like I could say, he is pressing at one point because he is pressing everywhere…I did okay, struggled a bit to read his antics but I survived just about by keeping ahead of his rolling.

Then I moved onto another partner who is much more forceful and looks constantly for direct lines to strike and forceful traps. I performed badly and was hit or trapped as I went for mine continually. :( I could not control him all night. This frustrated me! :evil: :mrgreen:

At home later I thought, because I could not control him or box him up does that mean my chi sau is poor? What is the aim of chi sau if even though I can feel him, I cannot stop him? Should I aim to develop my ability to cope with forceful and speedy types or should I move back from the clash and focus on my skills alone…..but keep taking the licks! :roll: :mrgreen:>

Post: The BadBoy:

Disengage and hit him with a liver punch :P>

Post: monkeypalm:

Quote:
His chi sau continues to slowly roll downhill whilst consuming everything before it. He moves like a mudslide would with constant mass and no variation in force. Its not like I could say, he is pressing at one point because he is pressing everywhere…I did okay, struggled a bit to read his antics but I survived just about by keeping ahead of his rolling.

he sounds very skilled in chi sau… being unable to pinpoint the origin of the force of somebody attacking you makes it very difficult. its not like isf somebody is pressing with their arm, you can feel that and do something back to them. but if they are good and you cant feel where its coming from thats really hard…

when rolling with people like this, the best thing you can do is try to improve your basics. dont let him distract you from being relaxed, focusing at your target and maintaining good angles in your arms. i dont know how much experience you have with relaxation, but actually when someone better than you applies a lot of force in that constant kind of way, it can be very helpful to your chi sau… you have to feel inside your body what is the best way to cope with that pressure… let your structure relax and adapt as it needs to, using their pressure as a catalyst for it. you can';t do these kind of experiment with yourself if you are training with someone who is applying pressure you can easily deal with, so its actually useful rolling with this guy. to put it simply, try not to physically fight and push against him. because if you do, and by pushing you isolate the use of one or two muscles versus his entire, focused bodyweight, you are going to lose. rather, try to find a way to absorb his pressure and at least release it somehow, through relaxed joints and into the floor.

Quote:
Then I moved onto another partner who is much more forceful and looks constantly for direct lines to strike and forceful traps. I performed badly and was hit or trapped as I went for mine continually. I could not control him all night. This frustrated me!

At home later I thought, because I could not control him or box him up does that mean my chi sau is poor? What is the aim of chi sau if even though I can feel him, I cannot stop him? Should I aim to develop my ability to cope with forceful and speedy types or should I move back from the clash and focus on my skills alone…..but keep taking the licks!

hmm… bit harder this one… if he is forcefully applying traps to you, then there is not much you can do about it… the only way you can generate and resist more than someone who is bigger and stronger than you is by relaxing and generally using more wing chun against them and less fighting back. if these guys are both your seniors, chances are you will never surpass them. thats what it is like at my school… the good guys get better just like you get better, so whoever started training first is always better than you… mind you, whoever starts training after you, you will always be able to be better at chi sau than them (to a point.)

anyway, against the second guy, if he really is outclassing you in chi sau and it is frustrating you then use it as an opportunity to practice your entering and bridging the gap and techniques, and use what you learn from guy number one to help you with that.

in my school, chi sau is always a cooperative exercise (for a good year or so anyway) so there is no ego, no trying to beat the other person up. we dont see it as a fight or a competition, more an exercise to improve the basics. however in chi sau sparring, those kinds of problems you have crop up for me all the time… the best answer is more practice practice practice! more siu nim tao, more chi sau, and more focus, structure and relaxation!

hope that helps. :D>

Post: monkeypalm:

one other thing, if the guy who is trapping you is taking a ‘shortcut’ and using his brute strength to trap, then he wont be able to do it to people bigger than him. but if you learn how to do it without relying on brute strength, then you can do it to people stronger than you.>

Post: zefff:

monkey mate thanks for the reply. i think i should explain more. i performed better against the first and more senior partner. I am happy with my performance. it was the 2nd i had troubles with.

i am more and more relaxed all the time, but still a way to go to return to my peak. i was not out classed, i simply was not able to deal with his more forceful gestures. Its okay though cos where I train if you are struggling at one area we see nothing wrong with adding headbutts, knees, kicks and takedowns etc into the equation to escape the medium/close, chi sau range! :mrgreen:

I think I know what I need to do. As you say, just improve and work to outsmart his brute strength and speed.

Can I ask, how do you suggest I practise my “entering and bridging the gap” during chi sau? This does not make sense to me at all. :oops:>

Post: EvilScott:

I RETURN! :twisted:

[quote=zefff …last night I was doin some chi sau with a really good partner. He is advanced compared to me and I would compare him with a mudslide. His chi sau continues to slowly roll downhill whilst consuming everything before it. He moves like a mudslide would with constant mass and no variation in force. Its not like I could say, he is pressing at one point because he is pressing everywhere…I did okay, struggled a bit to read his antics but I survived just about by keeping ahead of his rolling.[/quote 

This sounds like someone with good Chi Sao. Do you have sidesteps in your WC arsenal? Do you use them in Chi Sao? Another thing to do in Chi Sao if your opponent seems flawless is feed him something wrong – if he doesn’t do anything about it you can continue on and smack him or if he does counter you know where he’s going and you’re one step ahead. Stuff like using a heavy Fook Sao then running around his running hand is one of my favorite Chi Sao tricks.

[quote=zefff Then I moved onto another partner who is much more forceful and looks constantly for direct lines to strike and forceful traps. I performed badly and was hit or trapped as I went for mine continually. :( I could not control him all night. This frustrated me! :evil: :mrgreen: [/quote 

Use your running hands! Don’t control him, go around him. If he is forcing you and you divert the force he opens up wide and you get him.

[quote=zefff At home later I thought, because I could not control him or box him up does that mean my chi sau is poor? What is the aim of chi sau if even though I can feel him, I cannot stop him? Should I aim to develop my ability to cope with forceful and speedy types or should I move back from the clash and focus on my skills alone…..but keep taking the licks! :roll: :mrgreen:[/quote 

The point of Chi Sao is to train your reflexes. You want to be able to do Chi Sao without thinking. After you have the basics, instead of thinking of techniques just think of what you are trying to achieve: take the center and smack him without forcing him. It comes naturally.

Another thing lots of people miss out in lots of their Chi Sao is the forward intent. Your hands should have just a little bit of forward force – not enough for your opponent to use against you, but enough so you can feel whether he has a hole in his defense or not. Getting used to this kind of feeling transfers everywhere else in WC and is a damn fine tool in combat.>

Post: zefff:

Evilscott mate I was trying all that but it wasnt working out. :cry: I DO NOT THINK OF TECHNIQUE DURING CHI SAU….sorry – key cap stuck! I will go away and think about it.

I think I need to be even more fluid and light on touch than I am. What annoyed me was as I took his centre, I would show him a few hits but he would be hitting me at the same time. I simply could not control him adequetely. :( What I dont want to do is fight his force cos I know I can win that way. I want to win with technique and skill alone. Peace bros.>

Post: EvilScott:

Have you tried attacking from the sides?>

Post: bamboo:

Chi Sau sounds like an excellent practice.
I have only had the occasion to try it briefly would would like to extend an invitation to any of you that are ever in my area (ottawa canada) to visit. I would love to learn from and train with chi sau. I would love to see and especially feel how you guys take the center and perhaps compare the differences.
:D
The only Kung Fu guy here that I know is Panta, he knows how I take center but we unfortuneatly did not do any chi sau :cry: …NEXT TIME!

bamboo>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

4 sure next time we will do some chi sau, instead of spending time breaking my wrists and pushing me over. :lol: I loved that exercise. I do it with my wife and i like to push her over lol. It’s fun pickin on someone smaller than you. :twisted: I got to take as much advantage as i can b4 she takes up Aikido. But fair warning buddy, I suck at chi sau. I tense up too often.>

Post: Kyorgi:

I’ve never known much about wing chun. In the personal galleries of EvilScott I saw that his school was wearing peices of cloth wrapped around their waist (im guessing those were sashes?) but in Zeffs photos no one had the cloth strips, do most wing chun schools use rankings and in what order does the ranking system go? how are you ranked if your school doesnt use color ranks?>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I have never heard that Wing Chun traditionally had ranks; I think larger schools add them so they can organize classes better and keep track of students. Without ranks it’s not hard to track your progress as there are only three empty handed forms, and specific drills and applications that you generally learn. There’s also the Mook Jong form, which is usually 108 movements and can help you track your progress according to how much of it you know.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=Kyorgi I’ve never known much about wing chun. In the personal galleries of EvilScott I saw that his school was wearing peices of cloth wrapped around their waist (im guessing those were sashes?) but in Zeffs photos no one had the cloth strips, do most wing chun schools use rankings and in what order does the ranking system go? how are you ranked if your school doesnt use color ranks?[/quote 

Those are sashes which are basically ranks. We still teach classes together, but sashes allow Sifu to keep track of what we know. That way he can pair up experienced students with newbies. If you notice, the lower levels are still doing Seeyung Chi Sao with other people, which is something that isn’t really in the cirriculum until much later. Very little emphasis is put on rank in my academy, but they are still there. Much more emphasis is put on skill than rank – if someone who is better at something than a higher sash, he will help the guy out. You don’t bow or anything to higher belts, everybody there is just friends.>

Post: Stg:

in which form do you learn the one inch punch? :P>

Post: Gong||Jau:

It’s not really in the forms. It’s not like anyone comes up to you and says, “Today, son, you learn the one inch punch.” It’s more like after you learn to punch in Wing Chun and practice it, and once you learn to sink into your strikes and a few other things, you can just sort of do it. Of course, it depends on how good you are at the punches too – I’m decent, but by no means good at it.>

Post: Stg:

ok this next question isn’t about the style but it’s practicioner(didn’t want to watse space making a new thread and it does sort of fit in here)- is it true that william cheung is running a mcdojo? emin boztepe and a couple people here seem to claim so,but then some wc people like e.scott’s sifu and e.scott say that he’s a good wc fighter/teacher :?:>

Post: Stg:

[quote=Kyorgi I’ve never known much about wing chun. In the personal galleries of EvilScott I saw that his school was wearing peices of cloth wrapped around their waist (im guessing those were sashes?) but in Zeffs photos no one had the cloth strips, do most wing chun schools use rankings and in what order does the ranking system go? how are you ranked if your school doesnt use color ranks?[/quote 

in addition to what everyone else said,i noticed that it also dependson the style of wc.ving tsun(emin boztepe,victor gutierrez) for example has ranks like this:

SG ? Student Grade 1-12
TG ? Technician Grade 1-4
PG ? Practician Grade 5-8 (Master Level)>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=Stg ok this next question isn’t about the style but it’s practicioner(didn’t want to watse space making a new thread and it does sort of fit in here)- is it true that william cheung is running a mcdojo? emin boztepe and a couple people here seem to claim so,but then some wc people like e.scott’s sifu and e.scott say that he’s a good wc fighter/teacher :?:[/quote 

Never met the man so I don’t know about him personally, but his system is solid. My Sifu met him, and says he has a bit of a god complex. My Sifu tends to stray a bit from strictly teaching Cheung style and throws in some other stuff he thinks works better or compliments the art.

William Cheung running a McDojo? Bruce Lee called him the deadliest fighter on earth.>

Post: zefff:

just to go over some points since my last visit.

Kyorgi – we dont have sashes cos lower students would be looking to kick a mans arse all the time. :mrgreen: we have loose ranks based on the forms and students naturally respect sihing (higher rank students) knowledge and greater understanding of the art and not just fighting ability alone or colour of sash or ego size.

Stg – we dont learn the 1 inch punch. We develop inch power in all the forms but esp 1st and 3rd AFAIK.

As for my chi sau – I know now after more training at the weekend, that I need to push more with false intentions on the forceful type and appear to him to be where I am not to control his aggressive movements which should make the sidedoor swing open with ease! :mrgreen:>

Post: Gong||Jau:

[quote=Stg ok this next question isn’t about the style but it’s practicioner(didn’t want to watse space making a new thread and it does sort of fit in here)- is it true that william cheung is running a mcdojo? emin boztepe and a couple people here seem to claim so,but then some wc people like e.scott’s sifu and e.scott say that he’s a good wc fighter/teacher :?:[/quote 

1) Never, ever, ever trust what one Wing Chun faction says about another.

2) From what I’ve read about the past and know about the present, Cheung was an excellent fighter at one point (and might still be), but at some point became caught up in the money making aspect of martial arts and neglected what it should really be about.>

Post: Stg:

Quote:
Bruce Lee called him the deadliest fighter on earth.

where’d you get that from? :?:>

Post: Gong||Jau:

“In ’59 Bruce told me that Wong [Shun Leung  was the greatest fighter in the Wing Chun style, and that he had successfully defeated all challengers.”

“he was considered by Bruce Lee to be the “ultimate fighter”: William Cheuk Hing Cheung”

I can’t find a non-biased (not affiliated with him) site saying that about William Cheung, but I have seen them before. Really though, I don’t know if Bruce believed this about either of them after he’d been working on JKD for very long, and I’m not even sure if he saw William Cheung after that (he saw Wong Shun Leung once).>

Post: Stg:

new wc question: is it better to master the 3 forms before getting to use the mook jong,or is it best in your opinion to learn to use the mook jong early into the system?>

Post: zefff:

it is better to understand WHY and how best to do the simplest of things before moving on to any extravagance…but I think if you can relate any more advanced method of training to the basic roots then its a good thing to have a go a the lot.

The dummy forces you have correct form so it can only be good to even exercise on it, even if you are looking at the postures in relation to your siu lim tao (if you are a beginner.>

Post: monkeypalm:

well said zeff… basics basics basics!

Quote:
The dummy forces you have correct form so it can only be good to even exercise on it, even if you are looking at the postures in relation to your siu lim tao (if you are a beginner.

while i agree about practicing your SNT movements on the dummy, i disagree and say that you can make BIG mistakes using the dummy, and if it is allowed to carry on unchecked, and basically you begin dummy training too early, then its damn hard to rectify them. its much easier to learn something from scratch than to unlearn the incorrect way. for example, one guy at my school came from another lineage… he showed us and sifu his dummy technique which consisted of little more than skipping around really fast and whamming the arms as hard as possible. a complete waste of time, and he is eating a lot of humble pie right now relearning things…

briefly on the subject of william cheung, i dont like the way he claims to be grandmaster of the wing chun clan, and yet spent only 4 years with ip man. i once read the minutes from one of the meetings of the Ving Tsun Athletic Association, in which they clearly stated that they were dissapointed that one person claimed superiority and leadership over all others and indicated this was not the case.

i also saw an advertisment of his school where he claimed to be teacher and grandmaster of dan inosanto??? funny, inosanto never mentioned it in his interview. ok enough of that, gong sau (Never, ever, ever trust what one Wing Chun faction says about another) is exactly right! :) :lol: :roll:

zeff, sorry about misinterpreting your chi sau question.

i had an excellent lesson last time learning about joint power! every time i go and discover something new, i realise how little i know…>

Post: zefff:

monkey mate I actually think we are saying the same thing because when I talked about having a crack on the dummy even if you are a beginer, I meant just sticking to basics from 1st form such as Tan sau, gum sau, and bong sau positions from YGKYM before your class starts or when you have a bit of time outside of your current workload, and not jumping around and flying about the place above your level of knowledge and experience.

You cannot begin dummy training too early cos you only really begin when your sifu is ready to teach. If he teaches you too soon u will be poor quality and that reflects on him. If a man wanna learn from a book or from a mate who knows a bit or summat like that, he would spend his time better doing other things IMHO.

Anyway….elbows?…

how do WC defend against them?>

Post: dscott:

This is to the other WC practitioners:

What style do you study? I currently am studying the Sup Yi Sic forms and parts of the Pin San forms. Just wondering if anyone else it studying them as well.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=Stg new wc question: is it better to master the 3 forms before getting to use the mook jong,or is it best in your opinion to learn to use the mook jong early into the system?[/quote 

We start using the Mook Jong first day. We don’t do the full form, but we practice footwork and Pak Saos and Lap Saos and such on it. The Mook Jong should be integrated into training from the start, IMO – there’s no reason not to.>

Post: EvilScott:

[quote=dscott What style do you study?[/quote 

I assume you mean lineage…

Technically we study Traditional lineage, but my Sifu has never had a problem adopting things from different lineages that fit better. And he always encourages us to use what works for us instead of abiding blind to “the way things are”.>

Post: zefff:

[quote=dscott This is to the other WC practitioners:

What style do you study?[/quote 

dunno, dont ask! :roll: I think we are under Samuel Kwok here in UK.>

Post: dscott:

[quote=EvilScott [quote=dscott What style do you study?[/quote 

I assume you mean lineage…

Technically we study Traditional lineage, but my Sifu has never had a problem adopting things from different lineages that fit better. And he always encourages us to use what works for us instead of abiding blind to “the way things are”.[/quote 

I guess I mean lineage. My “class” isn’t very structured as I’ve mentioned before. But I do know that I am being taught the 12 forms of the Sup Yi Sic (sp?) right now. Once I’ve got them down, we’re moving onto the forms of Pin San (sp?)>

Post: dscott:

EvilScott: I thought you might like to view these pictures. I just came across them while searching for answers to my own question.

http://home.vtmuseum.org/sifu/john_crescione/index.php>

Post: dscott:

My WC teacher is always telling me that eventually, other WCer’s will try to challenge me. He says that alot of people who study WC are very competative. Have you run into this? Maybe it’s an old school thing.>

Post: …formless…:

Dscott it sounds like you are studying a non-Ip Man lineage if your curriculum is beginning with the san sik or 12 seperate techniques. Who is your instructor? I’m not sure what other lineages begin training with the san sik but I thought it was exclusive to Yuen Kay-San/Sum Nung Wing Chun….which is what I happen to study :mrgreen:

What techniques have you learned thusfar? If you’re doing Sum Nung WC I should recognize them but like I said, I’m not entirely sure the san sik is Sum Nung exclusive.>

Post: dscott:

My instructor is just starting to teach. Like I’ve said before, it’s not a “class” and without making it sound like I’m getting trained by “just some guy”, he’s a friend of a friend basically. He doesn’t really teach me the names of most of the forms but if you tell me what you do, I can tell you if that’s what I do.

I know it sounds like a McDojo but it isn’t. I really think this guy knows what he’s doing. Just to name a few of the people that have trained him; Wally Jay, Remy Presas, William de Thouars. His brother is even better. His brother was one of the first people in the United States to teach Harima.>

Post: lakan_sampu:

hey guys.,.,.

can someone please explain to me what CHI SAU is? I am really in confusion here you know…

why do WC guys seem to avoid circular or curving movements? In footwork also, they do not curve or circle as I see it, dunno but that’s what I saw on a video of my friend. I know that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line but for me, its not always the case. I agree but as I said, its not always the case in actual combat….Our aim is to be able to flow in all aspects of actual combat-be it unarmed, armed, striking, trapping or grappling. So the concept of always following a straight line in my opinion is a hindrance to being wholistic in combat. Sorry….
Besides, what are some of the evident weaknesses of WC?>

Post: monkeypalm:

hmmm…
from my sifu’s website …

Quote:
Sticking Hands

Sticking Hands (Chi Sau) is to train the application of the forms and the ingenious responses in fighting to foster the natural reflexes of the movements. The practice of Sticking Hands is divided into: single sticking hand, rolling hands (double sticking hands) and free sparring and requires learning step by step. It also practices the skill from the mottos of Wing Chun, such as: Loy Lau Hui Shun, Lut Sau Ja Chung (Attacked by someone, be able to neutralize the force. When the person retreats, keep the pressure on. If the person moves the arm(s) away, strike in.); Chiu Ying (directly facing the person); Jui Ying (chasing the person); etc.

chi sau is an exercise. two partners contact their arms in basic wing chun shapes. they roll from one position to another, in order to improve their basic principles. they will improve their relaxation, structure and focus as well as ability to control opponents limbs, ability to control opponents balance, develop quick reactions and many other things. the exercise is usually very free flowing and liquid. it is not fighting but the way it improves your basics will improve your sparring and fighting.

we use a lot of circular movements in wing chun. the act of rolling in chi sau is circular. even in straight movements, for example a punch, there is a ‘hidden’ circular movement, that is the elbow rotating around the shoulder joint. the concept of following a straight line to the target is not a hindrance in combat. when the way is clear, take the straight line. if the way is not clear, and you have to deal with incoming strikes, take the circular path to redirect and make the way clear, then take the straight line to the target. if i take a straight line and you take a circular line, i will hit first.

weakness of wing chun are – it takes a long time to make it really work. (in my school.) many practitioners are closed minded and petty unfortunately. it neglects groundwork. some wing chun branches have incorporated groundwork into their training regimes, but it still does not compare to a ground-only art. some schools train hard (lots of sparring and heavy workouts) creating good fighters but missing the finer points of WC. other schools train soft, investigating the finer points but taking ages to become competent fighters. some schools strike a good balance although they are rare.

WC lineages are sooo varied and different that when one person says something or tells you soemthing, it could be completely untrue for another WC person.

to zefffs question about elbows… ive been shown and learnt that they are damned hard to defend against of course. one way to deal with them is to contact them with the fleshy underside of your arm, in a fook sau shape. this can take quite a lot of impact without clashing with bone too hard. once contact is made, relaxing the shoulder will in theory cause the incoming strike to be redirected down and away at arms length. or, if you have enough momentum and contact the strike early enough, you can stop it from being effective and smash through them. basically, they are tough to deal with. my criticism of that technique was that your one arm is not strong enough to deal with an elbow. i experimented with using both arms to contact the strike, still with the fleshy underside, and try to stop or redirect it that way, quickly allowing one of the arms to strike once the blow has been nautralised (because it is dangerous to use two of your arms to control one of the opponents arms.)

however i have severe doubts that any of this technique would work if somebody is close enough to elbow and has some speed and power. i can generate a lot of power with the wing chun elbow, and would hate to defend against somebody who really wanted to do it against me.>

Post: zefff:

Hurray!!! Hi again Formless! I have missed you around here believe it or not. :mrgreen:

————————————————————————————————————–
“My WC teacher is always telling me that eventually, other WCer’s will try to challenge me. He says that alot of people who study WC are very competative. Have you run into this? Maybe it’s an old school thing.”
————————————————————————————————————–

Yes I have been challenged, but without asking or official challenging….a couple of incidents where the sparing just errupted as the opponent took things further.

I think challenging is a petty and ultimately very negative thing because skilled exponents claim to be all for the upholding of their art and its virtues while looking to destroy another exponent who is doing the same. :roll:

A personal grievance is one thing but challenging to move yourself up the ‘corporate ladder’ is destructive to the building of brotherhood that is neccessary to expansion…but testosterone is a powerful hormone to overcome when intelligence is lacking!>

Post: zefff:

Cheers for the reply Monkey mate. I have been looking at elbow defence and it is hard because they invariably occur towards the end of some combo that has put you in a bad position already. The only thing I see at the moment is quickly moving the target (my head) or changing the range (clich). but nowt is garanteed. :?

I think WC can work after even one week of training but as we become intermediate students we move further from raw battling as we disect the techniques and see what is possible…yes, if we are honest, we realise how crap we are as we understand our own capabilities.

Finally, yes there are loads of circular movements and methods in WC, well if you wanted to examine at the lowest level it is within everything but we prefer not to have to use the overtly circular paths of travelling. But in combat or even chi sau what appears to be straight is full of circular movement, not just in the X and Z planes but the Y also. Meaning up and down and back and forth, not just forward and across in relation to the ground (X and Z). This is how we capture centres (even if we dont realise), it cant be achieved with straight lines alone, we aint robots and our limbs arent pistons. It is the striking itself that we aim to keep straight.

I think this is universal and not just specific to me or my WC. We live in a 3D world. :mrgreen:>

Post: Blade:

Circular movement is more natural then straight movement. Atleast in my case,
But from my experience circular movements are slow both in attack and defense.>

Post: Kyorgi:

What are the weapons commonly used/trained with in Wing Chun?>

Post: monkeypalm:

We have butterfly knives (two short swords) and a long wooden pole. they dont come until much later, becasue they require a basic mastery of the hand forms to use correctly.

from my sifu’s website:

Butterfly Knives

The Butterfly Knives is the combination of the movements of the three forms. All the theories and application are the same but the only difference is the special body movements to transfer body mass to the knives. The form also emphasizes the importance of wrist turning power. Usually, one is used to defend while the other is used in attack but when facing heavy weapons, both of them will be used to defend first before attacking back.

Six-and-a-half Points Pole

It was said that the Six-and-a-half Points Pole was not created by the founder of Wing Chun, the late Abbess Ng Mui. It was Wong Wah Bo who exchanged the Siu Nim Tau form with Leung Yee Tai’s Pole form who learnt from the late Abbot Chi Sin. Whether this is true or not, we cannot verify. The form has only six and a half techniques as it is named. The mind force and basic principles of the three forms are applied. In the past, the pole should be over 11 feet, but nowadays the pole is about 9 feet long only.

—————————————

also, because ip man only had a handful of students learn long enough under him to acquire the pole and knife forms, there are a lot of pole and knife forms out there which are adaptations and basically made up. who knows, they may be better. im just saying. :shock:

my sifu was showing us something about structure one night and used the pole to demonstrate… that even if you are holding something a full arms length away, for example the pole out in front of you, any pressure applied to the pole should feel as though it is resting comfortably on your structure, rather than dragging you down and making it difficult to hold up. and so the person applying the pressure feels as though they are pressing on a solid structure rather than an unsupported pole (Which can be translated to the limbs too)

i digress.>

Post: lakan_sampu:

hey guys….

I have not seen any wing chun kicks before.c’mon, don’t tell me u guys don’t kick?! can anyone please describe some basic WC kicks for me?thanks! can anyone compare WC and Arnis handwork? objectively please…thanks!>

Post: Gong||Jau:

The most basic kick in Wing Chun is what’s usually referred to as a stomp kick. It involves standing in the fighting horse stance (the one where the legs aren’t next to each other), lifting your front leg up with the knee bent, and stomping forward. There are a few other kicks specific to Wing Chun, but most are variations of the same movement. However, many Wing Chun schools also teach kicks from other styles. I know that Tom Wong teaches round and side kicks in addition to the regular Wing Chun curriculum. Here’s a picture of a stomp kick:

>

Post: …formless…:

Indeed, while the most common Wing Chun kick is the stomp kick pictured above…how much kicking you do and what sort of kicks you do really depends on the school you’re training at. As *Gong*Sao mentioned, my Sifu Tom Wong has us throwing round kicks and side kicks a la Bruce Lee along with the standard front stomp. I was under the impression that these kicks were taken from other non-WC masters he had studied with (as he also knows the invisible kick) but apparently not. Its a common misconception nowadays that there are no kicks in Wing Chun because a large number of practicioners and schools don’t really emphasize them.

At my first Wing Chun school I was there for a month and didn’t kick a single shield or heavy bag. I didn’t even kick the friggin’ air! I’ve been with Tom Wong for just over 2 months and I’ve already worked kicks on various occasions. So again, things work very differently from school to school.

As for Wing Chun and Arnis handwork…I”m afraid I can’t help you there :mrgreen:>

Post: …formless…:

A question for all Wing Chunners here…

What methods do you use for countering chain punches? In my study of the san sik (12 techniques) I have come across two differing techniques/methods for effectively dissolving chain punches. One of them is called Loy Lim, which involves usage of boon tan bong (half tan sao, half bong sao) while the other is called outside join/attachment. I believe that Ip Man WC has retained the boon tan bong but I’m about 100% sure that theres no outside join. The outside join is a tough movement to explain and its outward appearance is one of the reasons my lineage has been sometimes referred to as “snake form” Wing Chun. If you really want me to describe what it does I’ll give it a shot but again, its so tough to describe online. Lets just say you use a nice solid arm structure (elbows IN) while joining your opponents bridges from the outside to stick to and control your opponents punches. The arm structure is crucial in helping maitain distance as is the hand position. Your fingers should be pointed straight with your thumb tucked in nice and close…like the “walk like an egyptian” hands. LOL, does this make any sense? Once you’ve joined bridges, the arms move in small circles from the elbows…the elbows don’t move because they are absolutely essential in helping maintain the distance and proper control of the punches.

Anyhow, does boon tan bong usuage include countering chain punches where you study WC? If not, how do you go about handling chain punches and why etc etc?>

Post: monkeypalm:

hello formless!

in my lineage of chu shong tin…

countering chain punches. chain punches are different if they are done with proper intent and if they are done as an exercise. if they are done as an exercise, they will stop at around the point where they would make contact with the chest or face. if they are done with intent, they would strike through the chest or face. so the counter for them is different for sparring or a real situation. i cant think of any set technique, but i did experiment with it today. the best way of doing it is to make your punch better than theirs by staying more relaxed than them and instead of aiming to hit their arm, aim for the target. go through their punches, turn the tables and let them worry about defending.

or for the more technically minded, perhaps a simultaneous pak sau and punch, or intercepting one or two of them, covering and controlling and punching straight through as soon as possible. whoever hugs the centre closer whilst staying more relaxed is doing the classic of wing chun, simultaneous attack and defence.

i dont like to make things too technical, this technique versus this technique. it is styling fighting too much. that stuff is never going to happen, unless you start a fight with your sihing. relaxing more and aiming for the target, whilst having good structure, will get you through.

kicking… in my lineage we have one main kick which is the basis for all other kicks. its a simple straight kick, like inthe previous picture. this can be chest level (in emergencies), gut / groin level, at or around the kneecaps/ shins. it can also be combined with a pivot in for a hook kick, a piviot out for a sidekick (from chum kiu) and various other ways. the idea is relax the joints, aim and hit with the bodyweight, same as a punch.

at my school, kicks are not taught for a year or so, at least until some basic feeling for the correct stance has been achieved. if you cant stand up right, you cant kick! it is introduced with chum kiu.>

Post: thebgbb:

[quote=…formless… A question for all Wing Chunners here…

What methods do you use for countering chain punches?[/quote 

Shoot in. The chain punches are a barrage of attacks that are meant to confuse and overwhelm, and they do just that with most people. If someone is effectively chain punching, though, then they are already in trapping/clinch range and they are probably moving in toward you. Step back to draw them in (and about 99% of WC people WILL follow if you retreat, especially if they are in the process of chain punching you), and shoot.

I would go for a double-leg takedown because of the slamming potential, but there’s a sweet version of the single leg that hyperextends the knee and forces them backward. I think it was developed by Dan Gable. Search the web and you should be able to find it.

Another option is to tie-up. This tangles the arms and keeps you from being hit. From there you can start working on throws. Many WC schools don’t teach retreating, so many WC people won’t step back, even when you tie up and crowd their space.

Please note, however, that the above statements do not apply to ALL WC people. My first art was wrestling, so these reactions are natural to me. Also, my old WC school did a lot of cross training. It wasn’t until a few other schools came to visit that I found out that other schools don’t teach grappling as a regular part of their curriculum. IF you are dealing with a good wrestler/grappler, you may be opening another can of worms by getting into wrestling range. :wink:>

Post: lakan_sampu:

hm.,.,.

In combat, can or will you still use that horse stance you use in Chi Sau training? I heard that’s for redirecting or something like that.>

Post: …formless…:

Hey Monkey and TheBGB, thanks for the input!

“Another option is to tie-up. This tangles the arms and keeps you from being hit.”

This is pretty much what the outside join does. The idea is to make contact and use the powerful arm structure along with the pointed fingers to control and keep them at a certain distance. You want to get them tangled up and make it as difficult as possible to punch through your structure. Supposing they should try and go through you, the pointed fingers are there to give the eyes a poke job. Hopefully before they land a punch to your face! *sigh* But alas, this description just falls so short of actually watching someone apply the technique. I think I’m going to submit some class videos at some point in time so that people can get a better idea of what I’m talking about.

“i dont like to make things too technical, this technique versus this technique. it is styling fighting too much. that stuff is never going to happen, unless you start a fight with your sihing. “

Heh yea I see what your saying (why use WC to only counter other WC) but I think its important to note that this is just how we think about things on the basic level. The outside join has numerous and vast applications, just as boon tan bong does, and to say that it is a set technique used to counter another technique wouldn’t really be doing it justice. In the beginning levels we are shown each of the 12 seperate techniques and then Sifu gives us at least one valuable application, usually more. After we have mastered the techniques and demonstrated them against a fully resisting opponent, we have to sit down and think about all the various applications the technique could have as well as combinations of techniques. Sifu gives us the ground to stand on but then leaves it up to us to do the thinking. This is absoultely critical in WC. I think using the “this vs. that” approach in the beginning helps us understand the principle and key points behind the technique. Once you understand that, you no longer have to think in terms of pre-existing technique and you get closer to being a serious Wing Chunner and just letting your gong fu flow.

As for kicks, the principles seem to be pretty much the same. We use our hips and try to deliver as much of our body weight as possible. The round kick is used more for speed but is also quite powerful. The side kick is the strongest as it tends to allow one to deliver a higher percentage of body weight. The front stomp kick is probably the most common and effective as it has lots of uses. Its also real quick and sneaky while providing enough power to do some damage. I think we have other kicks as well but these are the basic ones. Although I think a full year is a bit long to wait before even showing someone the kicks, I understand the reasoning behind it. I believe thats how they did things at my first WC school which was through the lineage of Ip Ching.

“In combat, can or will you still use that horse stance you use in Chi Sau training? I heard that’s for redirecting or something like that.”

But of course! We warm up with a drill at my school called switching stance which basically consists of getting into the stance, assuming the posture (slightly different than Ip Man WC, or at least what I’ve seen), and pivoting from side to side in a smooth and continuous motion. After some warm ups with that, we get out these foam padded long poles. One student thrusts the pole towards the other students center (not in any set rhythm of course) and the student has to pivot to one side, effectively preventing himself from getting hit. Now I wouldn’t be standing in the stance all the time but I would certainly use it in combat. Learning to pivot and use the hips is CRUCIAL in learning to throw any punches or kicks or elbows with serious power. The switching stance allows us to do just that.

And like everyone has mentioned, this is just how we do things at my school. Usuage, intepretation and even the existence of other techniques will vary from school to school to lineage to lineage>

Post: monkeypalm:

great input formless!

regards the fighting stance:

Quote:
But of course! We warm up with a drill at my school called switching stance which basically consists of getting into the stance, assuming the posture (slightly different than Ip Man WC, or at least what I’ve seen), and pivoting from side to side in a smooth and continuous motion. After some warm ups with that, we get out these foam padded long poles. One student thrusts the pole towards the other students center (not in any set rhythm of course) and the student has to pivot to one side, effectively preventing himself from getting hit. Now I wouldn’t be standing in the stance all the time but I would certainly use it in combat. Learning to pivot and use the hips is CRUCIAL in learning to throw any punches or kicks or elbows with serious power. The switching stance allows us to do just that.

we train to use the front on stance all the time. however, you dont often stand in that one position. if you are advancing or retreating or circling, obviously your legs are moving, but your centre and your shoulders, your hips should always face your target.

there are different kinds of pivoting… with the pole coming towards you, you can pivot on your own centre, in which case the pole (or any attack) may make contact, but it will be a glancing blow, allowing you to stay more focused on attacking. the more evasive pivoting involves pivoting around a point outside of your body, causing your whole body to move out of the way. this is more defensive, and thus, less attacking. the minimum movement necessary should be employed at all times!

also, i disagree that moving the hips and pivoting at all are crucial for delivering power. it can all be done with little body movement, as in the punches from siu nim tao. with proper focus and a relaxed structure, your whole bodymass is transferred into the strike regardless of whether it is rotating or pivoting. otherwise how would you get power from chain punches without pivoting like a maniac? you should be able to deliver your power from any position, even if you cannot pivot. of course, that is the plan, but for us it is easier in the beginning to generate power from pivoting.>

Post: …formless…:

Its refreshing to read about the various interpretations of Wing Chun principles and techniques! Lets try and keep this thread going…

“there are different kinds of pivoting… with the pole coming towards you, you can pivot on your own centre, in which case the pole (or any attack) may make contact, but it will be a glancing blow, allowing you to stay more focused on attacking. the more evasive pivoting involves pivoting around a point outside of your body, causing your whole body to move out of the way. this is more defensive, and thus, less attacking. the minimum movement necessary should be employed at all times!”

I’m fairly certain our entire body moves in a fashion like you described when we do the switching stance as we start square and then pivot a full 90 degress in one direction and then 180 degrees in the other direction, and 180 back the other direction etc. When doing the long pole drill it should never even glance off of your body.

“also, i disagree that moving the hips and pivoting at all are crucial for delivering power. it can all be done with little body movement, as in the punches from siu nim tao. with proper focus and a relaxed structure, your whole bodymass is transferred into the strike regardless of whether it is rotating or pivoting. otherwise how would you get power from chain punches without pivoting like a maniac? you should be able to deliver your power from any position, even if you cannot pivot. of course, that is the plan, but for us it is easier in the beginning to generate power from pivoting”

While I agree that one should be able to deliver X amount of power without pivoting, IMO theres no way that power will be equal to a strike with proper hip usage and pivoting. Also, horizontal elbow strikes among various other techniques (at least in my lineage) simply require the switching stance to be used with maximum efficiency. Flapping wing palms, chasing the shadow, arrow step punch, side kick and round kick all draw their power from the switching stance and/or proper hip usuage. Here is where it seems our lineages are quite a bit different. The switching stance is at the very foundation of our Wing Chun. As I understand it, one of the biggest reasons we use the pigeon toe stance is because it facillitates ones ability to pivot and the pivot has sooo many uses and applications both defensive, offensive and of course both simultaneously. Because of this, I practice the switching stance a LOT :mrgreen:

If you can punch as hard as I can pivoting without pivoting yourself then more power to you! It just seems so unlikely because with the switching stance, I’m literally throwing my body mass into the strike with my legs and hips. Also, when we work elbows and such using the switching stance we often do them in two’s. If you do two pivots back to back you generate even more power by using momentum built up from the initial pivot! Its really quite powerful and an effective means for generating some bone crunching power

What do our other fellow Wing Chunners think of the stance and pivoting? Do you percieve it as essential for really delivering strikes with plenty of power? Do you think strikes thrown with a pivot are bound to be more powerful than those without?>

Post: lakan_sampu:

hmmmm

You use it, the stance, I though it’s just for training. Thanks!

What was that thing that Bruce Lee disliked about Wing Chun. I read this from www.jkdkwoon.com.>>> “He criticized Wing Chun for its flashy techniques and Karate for its broken movements.”

Can anybody explain those to me? What’s those flashy things about WC?although a lil bit off the topic, how is Karate broken as in “broken movements”?

thanks!!!!

p.s.————I am totally way out of knowledge of WC until just a week ago. Thanks for this thread.>

Post: zefff:

it is great to see Formless and thebgbb back around here again!…its like my prayers were answered! :mrgreen:

straight blast: slip, bob n weave with counters at another level can work well but you aint got long to mess about. Gunting (limb destructions) can work well too if you have the skill. Many WC only straightblast with hands but remember it can be done with kicks simultanoeusly when chasing.

kicks: At my kwoon we do loads of kicks and even fancy ones too, just so we know we can do em. The focus is on superior leg strength and power to kick and support the upper body with a solid base when moving about.

edit: OOps! :oops: sorry guys i just realised Im way behind on this thread!..I will read up b4 posting again. Sorry.>

Post: thebgbb:

[quote=li_siao_lung 
You use it, the stance, I though it’s just for training. Thanks!
[/quote 

It is just for training. Many people don’t get the fact that a stance is supposed to be just a still image of a moving body. That is one of the things that Bruce Lee liked about western boxing; they didn’t have stances. They only had footwork.

[quote=li_siao_lung 
What’s those flashy things about WC?[/quote 

The only thing that I have seen that is flashy in WC is the complex trapping. You have probably seen it too: two guys are doing chi sao, you see a blinding series of traps that sound like a drum roll, and then about 10 seconds later one guy is finally trapped up enough that the other gets a strike in. I’ve seen Emin Boztepe videos where he’s doing chi sao, and you see about 8 or 9 slaps from his trapping before you actually see him go for an actual strike. It sounds and looks cool, but it is way too flashy.

Now, please note, if there are any EMBAS people out there reading this, I’m not trying to start a style war with you. I’m just pointing out something that I have seen.

Getting back to the discussion: When have you ever, EVER, seen slappy complex trapping like that in a fight or in a fighting competition? There’s a reason for that: it doesn’t work. The point to the traps in WC is to teach you a means of safely getting passed your opponents defenses to get to the opponent, but I see more and more people teaching tapping for trapping’s sake. If you are spending more than about a half second in trapping range then you are spending way too long.

Other than that, though (and I apologize for writing such a long blurb over something that is actually really small), there is nothing flashy about WC. Second only to boxing, it is one of the most cut and dry systems out there.

[quote=li_siao_lung 
although a lil bit off the topic, how is Karate broken as in “broken movements”?[/quote 

I think Bruce Lee’s perception of Karate having “broken movements” may be the result of his initial training in WC. WC doesn’t teach “strike, then block, then block, then strike, then block, etc”. In WC, you always do both at the same time. Many of the techniques, like the fut sao (inverted, upward palm strike)and the bil sao (darting fingers strike) can block and strike at the same time.

The bil sao, specifically, is something that I frequently use in sparring. The only difference is that I close my fingers down into a fist and use it as a jab. It will inherently intercept most straight punches, so I am striking and blocking at the same time. Wait a minute; “Way of the Intercepting Fist”? Hmm… :wink:

I think Bruce Lee was seeing weaknesses in the karate systems because they didn’t do both at the same time. However, I think most of that can be chalked up to the training method of the karate people of his day, and not to the art itself.>

Post: zefff:

Formless – I feel you on the pivoting. Great power can come from the multiplication of the torque that can be generated. I personally can deliver more powerful strikes with pivot and would initially subscribe to what you put forward, but maybe this is because this method of power generation is easier to grasp and develop for the student than other concepts which need processing and development to display results.

Im sure other methods of generating power are effective, but for me personally I cant deny that using waist torque to kickstart the forward acceleration of my fist/elbow is most effective.

li_siao_lung – I used to dis that stance until I realised I was actually using it without realising. It is a stance that I can initiate from or slip into and out of during a bout but it doesnt appear to be as pronounced as when we train with it. In training we like to make a song and dance about the stance but when applying technique from it in situ, it isnt really apparent. IMHO.

As for WC being flashy…please understand that WC is a stripped down MA. There is not a lot to it at all. Only just enough to do the job. No more than is neccessary. And this is how WC students are generally taught. “Use efficient technique to get the job done, no more than is required”

So if you can imagine that you are taught MA in this way, you will look at all MA in this way and you will look at your own MA in this way most of all. If you seek to truely make your MA the best it can be and ultimately take efficiency as the yard stick, you will see what you might consider as flamboyant or superfluous technique.

No-one can tell you what to consider extra baggage or flashy. You need to work it out for yourself.

thebgbb -

“It is just for training. Many people don’t get the fact that a stance is supposed to be just a still image of a moving body.”

exactly what I feel but couldnt put across. good stuff.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Formless: I agree that you can generate more power pivoting than not pivoting, but I don’t think this means that you should pivot into all of your strikes. The thing about chain punches is that they are (IMO) designed to be done while walking into your opponent. By simply stepping into a strike, you can deliver tremendous amounts of power. Also, many strikes in Wing Chun don’t need to be crushingly powerful to work (although more power helps), because they’re designed to be followed up with something else (or two or three other things), which is what makes them effective.

What I think Bruce was talking about regarding broken karate techniques is the fact that, until it is trained to a decent level, most karate (especially when trained without sparring) comes out looking very rigid and hard, since many of the techniques are linear, and are delivered with lots of power, then retracted. It takes a good understanding of it to be able to flow the way that many arts try to teach their practitioners to do right away.

As for flashy Wing Chun techniques, I have yet to see any, so I won’t comment on that.>

Post: …formless…:

Oh I also definately agree that you don’t need to pivot with each and every strike. Like you mentioned, even just stepping can add a a great deal of power to a strike and there are different strikes for different occasions. But if you want to really hit someone you’ve got to be able to really throw your body mass into your strikes. The best way I know to do this is either pivoting, stepping or a nice combination of both which is what the arrow step punch is. Note: Of course you can still get power without stepping or pivoting…but a pivot or step will get you more! Needless to say, combining the two makes for some serious results as well.

More thoughts later…grueling grueling finals are here :cry: :mrgreen:>

Post: zefff:

I isolated inch power for practise on the weekend. We did one inch, three inch and six inch attacks. I dont overtly train this often if at all really, but was pleased with my efforts.

Not that I was anywhere near devastating or anything but as I was delighted with the power I can generate so far, I am thinking of including this with everything else to make my movements of attack as well as defence even smaller.

That was not really a question or anything, I just thought I would share my thoughts as they are at the moment.

My question is related to lineages. I hear all this chat about lineages but dont know a thing about any of them, could practioners please list lineages they know and maybe explain a bit about their own (if it isnt Yip Man)? :mrgreen:>

Post: Gong||Jau:

The ones that come to mind:

Yip Man
Yuen Kay San
Pan Nam (created by Pan Nam, softer and less offensive than Yip Man; other than that I don’t really know what comes from Yip Man and what comes from Pan Nam since we learn both at the same time :oops:)
Red Boat>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I was searching for a simple list of the lineages and stumbled across this. I highly recommend everyone with an interest in Wing Chun read it. Very enlightening, and it finally dispells that Ng Mui myth. A bit biased towards Wing Chun, but what do you expect :wink:. If anyone has read any books by these people, I’d be very interested in hearing about them.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

check out this school i found out of michigan me thinks. this is the photos section.
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/photos.asp>

Post: thebgbb:

[quote=*Gong*Sao* 

Pan Nam (created by Pan Nam, softer and less offensive than Yip Man; other than that I don’t really know what comes from Yip Man and what comes from Pan Nam since we learn both at the same time :oops:)
[/quote 

Who are you learning from, Gong Sao? I only ask because my system was the Pan Nam System, too. I trained under Kyle Weygandt in Canton Ohio (who was certified by Eddie Chong).

There’s a lot of political garbage that’s been going on with WC for years now. Most of it is related to who has the “true” WC from Yip Man. The Pan Nam system, fortunately, is a little more obscure. Since our system didn’t come from Yip Man, our people don’t care and generally don’t participate in those debates. In fact, the only political thing that I had ever heard about before last year was the attack on William Cheung by Emin Boztepe back in the early 1990’s.

To my knowledge, Eddie Chong in Sacremento is the only direct descendent of Pan Nam teaching in the USA. He also teaches Bak Mei (White Eyebrow Kung Fu), which I trained in for one year, and he has integrated many of the concepts together. The Bak Mei hand techniques work really well in chi sao and in live sparring.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Right now I’m training in my dorm room. When I’m at home I train under one of Chong’s senior students who teaches closer to my house (15 minutes instead of 45), and we go to Chong’s school once every few weeks to practice with them. The thing is, I really haven’t been doing it long enough to learn some of the more refined aspects that separate the two styles, and I’m also not sure what part of what I’m being taught is Yip Man and what part is Pan Nam. I’ve been shown applications from both, but usually I just learn them without being told “this is Pan Nam” or this is “Yip Man”. Sorry I can’t be more helpful; maybe you can :mrgreen:.

Side note: I can’t wait to start learning Bak Mei; I’m hoping to as soon as I go back this summer.>

Post: zefff:

okay guys,

I am not really a chi sau boff at all but I am trying.

Last night I had a crack at a guy who is about 6’6″ and had some big ass arms. He is the biggest armed guy I have ever chi sau’d with. He was all over my space and when rolling I literally could not touch him without having to move in first.

Im sure I remember Bruce Lee saying he had trouble with Jabbar but I know it can be resolved because I have a Sihing who is only about 5′ and can adequately deal with me and all other 6′ intermediates.

Has anyone else had to deal with a long armed man who gets in your face? :( :mrgreen:>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

I did a Chi Sau drill with a similar sized man dude. He is 6’6″ and his arm too are wide. He is also a very senior student in my school. He loves to get into me and give me a little push on my shoulder so I am off balanced. I am not great at Chi Sau, but this dude really frustrates me cuz he’s soo big and tall AND his arms flows like water. I still have a lot of trouble trying not to tense up.>

Post: zefff:

well this guy isnt so good as he is not sensitive but he is direct.

I could flow around and through him quite easy and he was the one who got tense :mrgreen: but my head was in his chest and he was basically engulfing me and so when he wanted to attack my space all he had to do was move a couple of inches cos he was already halfway there with his big self.>

Post: zefff:

New question!

When should we use bil gee? Always? Emergency? Dont think!…feel?>

Post: thebgbb:

I use the bil sao attack regularly…but I close the darting fingers down into a fist and throw it like a jab. The purpose of that strike is to intercept your opponent’s incoming strike, and is functionally the same as a jab.

So I guess my answer is “always”.>

Post: Fa Jing:

[quote=thebgbb I use the bil sao attack regularly…but I close the darting fingers down into a fist and throw it like a jab. The purpose of that strike is to intercept your opponent’s incoming strike, and is functionally the same as a jab.

So I guess my answer is “always”.[/quote 

I TOTALLY AGREE. In fact, thanks for the idea bgdd.>

Post: thebgbb:

[quote=Katsu Jin Ken 
I TOTALLY AGREE. In fact, thanks for the idea bgdd.[/quote 

Hehee. There must be a new group of people here who don’t know what letters b.g.b.b. stand for. If they did, they wouldn’t write things like “bgdd”

:wink:>

Post: monkeypalm:

I don’t know what it means!

I actually thought by biu jee you meant the biu jee form. In my opinion, you will only use it when your body is physically able, ie you don’t have a choice, you can either use it or you cant. the rotational, joint and whole body power that the form teaches you is very useful and also very advanced, requiring a very competent mastery of SNT and CK before it. however, once you have learnt and good a good theoretical and practical grasp on the biu jee form, i expect that you would use its movements and way of moving all the time in self defence because it is the most powerful and (not wanting to sound cheesy) dangerous of all the forms.

also, i know why you put the ‘pointing finger’ reference in. i have a vcd of wong shun leung giving a seminar from back in the 80’s. he says that biu jee is not the complete title, there should be another word in there. this gives the form its correct meaning, which is the finger pointing to the moon. do not concentrate on the finger, or you will miss all the heavenly glory! and the link is, bruce lee says both do not concentrate on the finger, and dont think feel, in the same scene of enter the dragon.

thank you! :) :lol:>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I know what it means :lol:. I was told that Chum Kiu is really the end of what you need to hold your own against an ordinary person. The purpose of the Biu Gee form is to give you stuff to use against another Wing Chun man. I’m not trying to start an argument, this is just what I’ve heard.>

Post: zefff:

Thanks Monkey’ and Gong’,

I did actually mean the methods and attitude of the forms teachings rather than the single technique. I am still on CK but am getting glipmses of BJ all the time. It is taught at our kwoon that BJ method is for emergency and for when you mess up and are in a bad postion…amoungst others.

Now I would like to talk about the 3 terrors of Wing Chun. Why are they called this and whats so special about them? Lets take them one at a time:

Bong Sau! Whats so good about this technique? What uses does it have? Is there any depth in deployment, anything beneath the surface and past the obvious? Does anyone not like this technique?:mrgreen:>

Post: …formless…:

Ah yes, the beloved bong sao and its many variations, uses, and applications. To say the least, from what I undestand even at a very newbie-ish level, there is a huge amount of depth in deployment when it comes to the ole bong sao. For one, consider all the variations there are…throwing bong, attacking bong, boon tan bong, sae bong etc. Then consider all the various ways each of those could possibly be implemented. Then, think about all the ways that similar structure gets used i.e. elbow strikes, outside join. The structural principle alone of the bong sao and how often it is used in Wing Chun shows just how profound a seemingly simple structure can be. I’m not even considering the principles of application which make things increasingly more profound!

Now, I especially love boon tan bong as its contains 2/3 terrors of WC at once! A delightful lesson my instructor gave the other day showed me just how powerful the half bong / half tan structure is. He demonstrated how he could easily fight someone using nothing but boon tan bong. With the wrists together and alternating quickly you can use boon tan bong to defend against chain punches and other continous motion attacks. The other day, I watched a fellow student sparring while simply holding up a boon tan bong as opposed to just holding his hands up. He just held that structure and waited for the other student to offer an attack upon which he would simply place the boon tan bong in the appropriate position and attempt to either make contact or find an opening for a strike. Its a very solid structure indeed. Whats also nice about the structure with your wrists together is that your hands are in position to issue a nice lop sao and backfist not to mention the leverage the presence of the bong sao can potentially offer for breaking the wrist. Does anyone know what I’m talking about? :mrgreen: This would be a lot easier to show as opposed to describe online. If theres one thing that gets me about Wing Chun its how simple something can be shown to you yet when you have to describe it online it seems that words simply do not get the job done!>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Great post, formless! We use that structure somewhat (although not at as early a level), and it’s amazing. It’s like driving a wedge into their centerline.

Well, this is also from a newbie-ish perspective, but I love bong sao. One of the great things about it is that it retains its structure at almost any level, so it’s basically the ultimate centerline block (yeah I know it’s taboo to use that word, but keep reading :P). Any attack coming down that path, you just flick your elbow up and it bounces off. The other great thing about it (I suppose most structures are like this, but I can’t make them do this) is that it’s so structurally sound that besides deflecting an attack it actually has the potential to break your opponent’s structure, throw them off balance, etc. It pushes people onto their heels if done properly, so it can really surprise them and open them up for an attack. The final thing I can think of at the moment is how perfect it is for a grab/pull/wrench/whatever. The hand is just sitting there not doing anything, so you leverage their arm, and if it’s a Wing Chun guy you have a headstart on getting your arm back into position, or if it’s not they resist and you break their structure then punch them in the head as their face falls into your fist :mrgreen:.

I must admit I’ve never heard the term “terrors of Wing Chun” before. I’m guessing the second one is tan sao (and rightly so :mrgreen:) based on formless’ post, but what’s the third one? The only thing that comes to mind is pak sao.>

Post: zefff:

This is why I love it. So many variants. Here are three of my favs.

The seeking contact variant, where we parry and the two surfaces slide along each other to give a great reference for other technique to follow. The first.

The colapsing variant, the one where it disloves under contact leaving the opponent over exposed while you recieve his forward energy.

The flick and bounce off variant, when I percieve a very powerful attack incoming and aim to use a point on the forearm a little higher up than the usual with a small flicking action to alter the course of the blow with minimal contact.

These are three of my favourite types which I am continually developing. There might be official names for them but that is wot I call them. As Formless said there are loads more and then that is multiplied by the method of application for differing situations or angles. Turning, advancing, sidestepping, inside gate [wrong arm – right arm bong sau against a right arm punch 8)  , low level etc, etc!

Can I ask what are “boon tan bong and sae bong”? Maybe I know the technique but not the name. Maybe its summat new to me. :?

Gong jau mate the 3 terrors are Bong sau, tan sau and fuk sau. …I can see why u would think it was pak sau but it aint. I have not seen the light with fuk sau yet, I do not knowingly use fuk sau in sparing, maybe I do without thinking but I dont look to do so. Anyone know why fuk sau is a terror? What could be so special about the technique?>

Post: …formless…:

Hey Zeff,

Boon tan bong essentially means half bong sao, half tan sao. While I’m faily certain this structure can be found in all Ip Man WC but I’m sure that application wise it is probably used just a bit differently. As for sae bong…I don’t really know how that one translates! Not really sure if its present in Ip Man WC or not. As for some of the functional purposes it serves, I’d really have to show you. Its a sort of blending, tai chi-esque bong sao from what I’ve been shown thusfar. Probably has even more applications but honestly, I can’t provide a lot of in depth understanding about it because it hasn’t been a significant portion of my curriculum (gotta focus on other basics! :mrgreen:).

As for fook sao, I was just going to say that its not really one of my terrors. Could someone who actually uses fook sao, i.e. while sparring, provide some insight as to why this technique was included within the three terrors kuit? I’ve yet to even see a fook sao in my current studies with Sifu Tom Wong.

Personally, I think everyone has their own three terrors. At this point, mine would be boon tan bong/attacking bong, arrow step punch and flapping wing palms. I know that probably doesn’t mean much outside my lineage, heh, but there they are. Arrow step punch is just the transfer of my entire body weight into a single, very fast and distance closing strike. Flapping wing palms is a sort of redirecting parry which again, is quite powerful because of weight transference and waist power. Also, at this point in my WC we do not issue palm strikes with the actual palm of our hand itself. We are taught to use this little section of bone near your wrist on the outside. We use it for lan sao too and its quite good because if your have excellent short-power, you can break someones arm just by throwing up a lan sao!>

Post: Gong||Jau:

It’s funny you mention that, since I was actually going to ask if it was fuk sao but didn’t because I’m not sure it means what I think it means :oops:.

As I understand it, fuk sao is that wrist pop that you can add to palm strikes, chops, etc. Try this: do a short range strike on something without any wrist action, and then do it again the same way (sinking, pivoting, whatever you did) only pop your wrist into it. I’m assuming, of course, that you guys do the same movement in your lineages. Say you’re throwing a palm strike. From what I understand, the fuk sao is the motion that brings your hand from fingers forward to palm out. You can actually generate a lot of power if you stand with your fingertips touching them and sink/fuk sao into them. You can do it with punches also. This is still from my possibly skewed point of view, but I believe the fuk sao motion would be a wrist pop that slightly changes the angle of your fist and causes your bottom knuckles to press upward and into your opponent.

It’s also great when you’ve got a bridge established. Think about dan chi sao. As the person on the bottom goes to palm strike you, you use a wrist motion to deflect their strike downwards, then roll your arm forward to punch. It’s great because the motion allows you to apply a force from what is basically zero distance without drawing your arm backward, so if you have contact with someone and feel them start to attack, you use it to push their strike off target.

Now that I think about it this reminds me a lot of the casting thread in the RMA forum, since if you are dropping your hand into someone your wrist can change from being slightly bent to very straight using this motion, and it works best if done at the moment of impact.

Also, formless, we use that bone you mentioned a lot. We do something like a dropping palm strike only with your hand turned to the side and strike with that bone. You can do it from multiple angles and it’s great at really short ranges because all that needs to move is your elbow.

Sorry for the long post; I hope this makes sense and I hope I have some idea what I’m talking about :oops:.>

Post: monkeypalm:

Ecellent posts!

I had some good training last night and went back to single sticking hands. I got to work on my fook sau, and I realised how powerful it really is.

My teacher places an almost ridiculous amount of emphasis on relaxation. And the trouble is, it does not work unless you really do it correctly. This can lead to frustration. But last night, it worked perfectly!

I was doing the fook sau movement during single stick, when the partner goes from tan sau to palm strike. I worked on that single movement for around half an hour. Things I was told were :

– Relax the whole arm first.
– Remember basic body structure (straight back, tei gong)
– Point your relaxed arm at your target.
– Have the idea in your head, and a connection between your brain and your shoulder, that the shoulder is free to rotate in any direction.
– Support your wrist with your shoulder. It is a very slight but very profound feeling… that you are not pushing or physically supporting the wrist, but you have the mental idea that there is a link between your wrist and your shoulder.
– Then as force comes in, you must maintain this relaxation, support and focus, and free shoulder rotation.
– The palm comes in and your arm, the fook sau shape, if you do it correctly, very naturally rolls.
– This deflects the blow. And, if you maintain your relaxation, it gives the impression that your arm is very, very heavy. I had the distinct feeling that my arm wieghed a ton and yet it was easy to move. It was kind of strange. I could feel it was very heavy, especially to my partner, yet I was putting in no physical effort whatsoever. Only my brain was working to keep my arm relaxed yet focussed.

I also managed to maintain this feeling during double sticking hands later, and found that this new heaviness meant I could easily overpower my partner with little or no effort.

I havent heard of the 3 terrors but I have heard of the three mother shapes, or the most important positions, tan, fook and bong.

Personally I feel they are so important because they form the circle in front of you which you use to control, deflect and attack your opponent. ROlling from tan to bong, you actually use fook in between. So the three of them are just static images of the circular shape which is our strongest shape. Once you free up your joints, it becomes as simple as releasing all incoming pressure at whichever joint, but still keeping them at a distance with your ‘3 terrors’ .

The way my teacher and my teachers teacher teaches it (hehehe) is that the movements from the form are not techniques or positions (because these will always change in real life according to the circumstances) but rather they teach you how to move, how to think. Then, you can do any movement you want, as long as you are doing it correctly, it will be effective!>

Post: zefff:

here are some definitions I lifted off a site ( http://cstang.www3.50megs.com/wingchun.html ), I hope these may help people with some of the terms in this thread.

bong sau (wing arm)
gum sau (pinning hand)
fak sau (whisking arm)
fook sau (bridge on arm)
gaun sau (low block)
huen sau ( cricling hand)
jum sau (sinking block)
jut sau (jerk hand)
kau sau (circling block)
kwun sau (rotating arms)
lan sau (bar arm)
lap sau (pulling arm)
mun sau (inquisitive arm)
pak sau (slap block)
pie jarm (elbow backing)
po pai (double arms)
wu sau (protective arm)
biu sau (thrusting hand)>

Post: Fa Jing:

Do you know of a site that shows example of all those techniques zefff?>

Post: zefff:

no not really but I just did a quick search and found this:

http://members.tripod.com/ju_jutsu_master/id52.htm

havent read the text just saw the pix.>

Post: bamboo:

Zefff,

Nice list, Now I follow the wing chun threads without a book to decipher whats happening!

cheers,

bamboo>

Post: lakan_sampu:

hm……….
are you WC guys really that stationary as my friends think or that’s only in Chi sau?haven’t seen WC footwork before, can anyone describe it?>

Post: zefff:

because there is a lot of chat about this hand technique and that hand technique, it can appear that WC works in a rooted to the spot manner, and the danger to many exclusively WC practioners is that they can forget to work the legs as much as the arms. But this is not how it should be at all!

As an Escrimador you should understand that mobilty is the basis for success. This is true in combat for all arts but in WC (emptyhand) the idea behind the strategy is to only move if you have to move to make the technique work and not moving for movings sake with no advantage gained, i.e. bobbing up and down etc.

That is not to say a WC man cannot bob up and down or even start moving in the oddest or innefficient of manners. That is a stage of development where the art is consumed by the man and he is then actually presenting himself as a whole to his opponent and not just his arsenal of techniques, conditioning and experience etc in a fragmented fashion.

What is WC footwork? :? I am not full of all the knowledge of WC but I know that there are different stages of development for WC footwork. When the first four forms are complete, a WC mans footwork will not look like what a WC mans footwork is percieved to be by beginners.

We start with basic chor ma (turning in stance) this is similar to what u may have done in your first stickfighting lessons where you may have stood on the spot throwing the basic angles of attack. Learning body mechanics and generation of power in strikes. Same thing here! :mrgreen:

Then we have Bik ma and tor ma which are two types of advancing/retreating steps. One where the rear foot follows the lead and the other where the rear steps through along a parrellel line to form a position 45º off the opponents centre line. Also we have huen ma (?) IIRC circling step…hope this makes sense! :wink:

There are a few others but once we learn the basics and what can be done with them it is up to the intellect of the individual to understand how to use them to his advantage. Also another thing to consider is weight distribution as this affects footwork immensely. Our distribution can go from 100% on the back foot to 80%-20% favouring the front. Mostly it is 50-50 as this allows for a greater access to a variety of technique. This is where equal use of all limbs comes in to effect. :mrgreen:

Hope I have made some sense here but basically the footwork starts off quite awkward in places as we concentrate on the movements then it becomes very natural as we realise it is a piece of cake. BTW it mixes very well with Eskrima I have found once you get over having to put your weight on the back foot.>

Post: monkeypalm:

Great post Zefff.

When I train, we have no footwork as such. We are told to move from the centre, and the legs will do whatever they have to to keep you upright.

“After learning the unity of the body and focusing, Chum Kiu teaches how to use the mass properly by moving it in one piece. Many people think that movement of the body is depended on the movements of the legs, i.e. the footwork. I personally consider that the movements of the legs are the coordinated result of the movements of the centre of gravity. When the upper part of the body is under pressure from the attack of the opponent and if changing the position is by initial movement from the legs, the spine will receive a lot of pressure. If the back does not want to face the pressure, the upper part of the body will need to fight back fully which causes the muscles to contract and tense up even more. The cohesive mass will then be dispersed and strong structure becomes weak. At the same time, one thing has to be pointed out is that: knowing the target will not automatically mean that the power generated from the mass and its movements is actually and fully used in the defense and attack towards the opponent. That is the reason why when moving, the body is needed to be coordinated in order to prevent the force generated be offset and rivaled with each other and weakened the attacking power. Learning to move is actually the beginning of speed.”

From my sifu’s website^

Of course there are kinds of stepping involved in the chum kiu, biu jee, dummy, knife and pole forms, but I really don’t know about them.

For me, footwork is usually kicking to bridge the gap, and then keeping my balance. :oops:>

Post: lakan_sampu:

hm…
so it seems that footwork isn’t “extensively” practiced in WC. It seems to me that WC people have it intrinsically. Anyway, I do not like to be stationary when fighting or having drills. I cannot imagine that “moving for moving’s sake” thing. It seems stupid to me. ha, moving without any gained advantage at all,its foolish. Does any MAist do that?
1 more thing, I don’t wanna be called eskrimador. Arnisador will do.

thanks
chhers comrades!>

Post: Blade:

There is also the step which your rear leg comes to the front, sort of like changing a lead side altho your angle changes very slightly. can also be a kick, just like any wingchun step.>

Post: zefff:

li_siao_lung,

I apologise if I was rude bro. It was not my intention. Arnisador you shall be!

Footwork should be extensively practised in WC. I will be honest in my opinion – I think that in a lot of schools it might be the case that it is not as important as close quarters skill and striking, but it should be. In my school it is practiced every day. If intelligence is not applied to developing footwork while hoping for the best that it will become great and also merge with the rest of ones body by chance is not the most efficient method. Wing Chun is based on efficiency.

I understand your dislike for be stationary. Being stationary is not natural. Only beginners in chi sau practise are rooted to the spot as they learn the many complex hand positions and outcomes.

You prolly cant imagine ‘moving for movings sake’ because you study a scientific and efficiency geared art yourself. Yes many artists perform movements that have no real strategic advantages. Twirling a cane for show is one of them. :mrgreen: I did not mean to imply that ‘moving for movings sake’ was a part of any PMA practise, simply that any superflous movement is to be seen as a waste of energy when performing WC techniques.

Blade – I mentioned that method of footwork earlier. It is known as Tor ma mate – “Then we have Bik ma and tor ma which are two types of advancing/retreating steps. One where the rear foot follows the lead and the other where the rear steps through along a parrellel line to form a position 45º off the opponents centre line.”

Peace bros.>

Post: zefff:

Yes please clarify for me what makes the methods different for a man and a woman in terms of technique? What makes a womans punch different from a mans? As far as I am aware our arms and legs work the same way. What does a woman need to fight that a man doesnt?

Make sure you answer my questions please.

Also please go back and read the whole thread for your own good.>

Post: lakan_sampu:

hm………
that twirling thing…is not fancy at all in our Kombatan system of arts. Maybe in some styles of Arnis/Escrima, they do it for show only (BTW, not all FMA are united, there are many different styles of which many variations and distinctions exist.).Many techniques require twirling to keep your attacks and defense flowing altogeteher, (doblada,doblete,abanyco, ocho-ocho, etc…)hence in many techniques your offensive move can be converted into a defensive one in an easy manner. Footwork while twirling is also essential, of course. Many twirlings that we do resemble disarming techniques without having to touch the weapon of the opponent.Besides, twirling will increase the flexibility of your wrist and strengthen the forearms and promote the necessary control in most of the drills.

cheers comrades!>

Post: dikdirkin:

any of you guys practice rolling hands pre-chi sao? ive found this good for shoulder stamina and also builds a feeling of anticipation before we get going.
recently Ive had problems with heavy kinda hard chi sao-ers and i keep having to let them drop. relaxation is definately the key.>

Post: zefff:

yes we pun sau (rolling hands) a lot but usually at our own discretion. Some do it more than others but its a good way to guage your partners demenour and your own deficiencies before getting carried away.

For shoulder endurance at my school we do a lot of press ups: triangle, handstand etc. exercises like lizard walking, and a lot of punching of course.

With hard and forceful types you must avoid opposing their force and getting into that game and start rolling around, over and through their rigidity. Its hard but if you can try to forget about stopping their attacks and start to only concern yourself with setting up your own, you will see that your attacks actually can deflect theirs as you hit them. If you attack first and they parry, renew your attack immediately while they are relaxing the muscles they just contracted. Try to chi sau without parries at all or at least no parries that dont gain you any advantage. Its flippin hard but thats what Im aiming for.

Try it out but its not gospel. :mrgreen:>

Post: Fa Jing:

im not sure what you mean by pun sao, you have any pics or videos of it? We do don chi sao as a pre chi sao exercise.>

Post: zefff:

“Rolling hands”, maybe its written poon sau, I dunno. heres a pic. Of course though, there are four basic positions. Inner and outer gate, Outer and inner gate, Inside on both hands, Outside on both hands. This pic shows only one.

See! You do this all the time! :)>

Post: Fa Jing:

lol true, we just call it chi sao though, we dont use all the canto words we should lol>

Post: dikdirkin:

cheers Ill try it out>

Post: lakan_sampu:

hey guys……
what and how would a Wing Chin standars straight punch go?can someone describe me in detail?thanks!

cheers comrades!>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I’m not sure I quite understand what you’re asking, but…

1. Hold your elbow about a fist’s width from your torso

2. Make a vertical fist and hold it against your sternum

3. Punch straight out, keeping your elbow tucked in as close to your side as you can without collapsing the one fist’s distance (this is the hard part to describe)

4. Don’t extend your arm far enough where you have to push your elbow out

Hopefully if you’ve seen one done before this should make some sense, if not ask me and I’ll clarify (or someone else will). Key points: stay relaxed, especially your shoulders, and imagine a tube extending from your chest into the chest of someone in front of you, and keep your hand inside it.

If you find a picture of someone doing one, it would probably help you immensely, since you’d be able to understand what I mean a lot better.>

Post: zefff:

Also push your pelvis forward and shoulders down (I have a slight curve or hunch in my back) and do not withdraw the fist before the punch – It only accelerates forward from where ever it may be. Hit through the target and retract. Do not leave the punch out there as if you are posing for a picture like a lot of people do. Analyse your verticle fist and ensure your bones from elbow to knuckles are in alignment when you strike. Hit with three bottom knuckles. Have a very tight fist on contact, but before…..then you can start using the body, turning in stance, advancing etc.

go here:

http://www.martialartinstitute.com/Index.htm

and check out the video clips etc.>

Post: lakan_sampu:

seems like it rolls for me. How does power generate in that process?>

Post: Fa Jing:

what do you mean exactly? how does moving enable you to generate power? The chick in that picture the one with the long hair what is she doing? Looks like a really high bong sao, looks to me like a kau sao.>

Post: zefff:

li_siao_lung –

dont know what you mean by ‘rolls’??? And as for how is power generated, well in straight punching it should come from every joint doing adding its own bit. Wrist, elbow and back. No huge shoulder input. When you punch with turning then spinal column, waist and the legs come to add there bit too. It is about total body unity, as in any striking art.

Fa Jing –

“The chick in that picture the one with the long hair what is she doing? Looks like a really high bong sao, looks to me like a kau sao.”

She is performing pun sau. She is rolling with a bong sau and fuk sau hand positions. Kau sau is where you come across the centreline with both hands in this position:

>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Fa Jing: put one hand in a tan sao, and the other palm down raised a little bit above the other, so the fingertips point out in lines that would cross a little ways out. Now fuk sau with the raised hand as you roll the tan arm into a bong. Roll back. Do that with a partner and it’s pun sau. Add in attacks and defense and it’s chi sau.>

Post: zefff:

I think he knows how to roll already cos he explained it earlier. TBH I think Fa Jing may have confused Kau sau with Kwon (?) Sau. The manouver where tan sau and bong sau are thrust out from the centre simultaneously. But still the girls werent doing that anyway. :wink:

I have a question:

can we use Wing Chun on the ground?>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Of course. You can use Wing Chun on the ground and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu standing (although a triangle might be kind of hard :lol:). You should be able to do just about all of the handwork from mount, and the best part is your opponent is stuck at close range.>

Post: zefff:

Whats the highest strategy in use of Wing Chun?

Unseen, direct, rapid striking along the centre is the simplest. But is it the best method?>

Post: Fa Jing:

i mean Kal (sp?thats how its pronounced) sao, its a bong sao but instead of a block its more of a sweeping type of clearing motion, if i can find some pics ill post them. We dont use the term pun sao i dont think maybe i just havent learned it yet, we primarly use chi sao and don chi sao.>

Post: lakan_sampu:

it seems to roll in my imagination, like a wheel—that straight punch…>

Post: zefff:

[quote=zefff 

Fa Jing –

“The chick in that picture the one with the long hair what is she doing? Looks like a really high bong sao, looks to me like a kau sao.”

She is performing pun sau. She is rolling with a bong sau and fuk sau hand positions. Kau sau is where you come across the centreline with both hands in this position:

[/quote 

Fa Jing and everyone else,

my apologies! I was wrong. The technique I described in the picture is Kan sau. Kau sau is where the hand intercepts and encircles the opponents hand, sweeping it away from the inside outwards. Its in Siu lim tau just after you Gan sau then raise the arm with Tok sau. Fa Jing was correct in his questioning, although she was actually performing Fuk sau. I must learn to clean out my ears more often. Sorry. :oops:

heres one I quickly found:

Look at the defensive arm not the attacking one. its a bit elaborate and way higher than it ever needs to be (especially the elbow) but I hope it illustrates the circling of the wrist to send the attack off target.>

Post: zefff:

[quote=li_siao_lung it seems to roll in my imagination, like a wheel—that straight punch…[/quote 

You mean chain punching? Yeah a lot of folk like to puch repeatedly with this circular motion added in to aid speed and to ensure you dont clatter your own knuckles I guess. I use it myself but prefer to employ straighter line punches for more accuracy and power. The motion is more kind of straight in and out like a sewing machine needle.>

Post: Fa Jing:

i c we use Kan Sao, use it more like a clearing motion to get the strike out of the way fast so you can throw a strike of ones own.>

Post: zefff:

Yeah Fa Jing mate thats the one. Do you have any favourite attacks that flow nicely from kan sau for you?

I seem to always reply with Fak sau to neck or Lan sau and groin grab. Either that or roll back with a diagonal elbow. Do you or anyone else have anything that works well form you? Im asking cos I’d like to expand my responses from this position.>

Post: Fa Jing:

the groin grab is whats in the drill, i like the elbow idea im goin to have to try that the next time i get a senior student drillin with me, you could also lap the arm you kan sau very easily.

ty for the idea, fellow wing chunner>

Post: zefff:

Something Ive been thinking about lately is that in WC it seems very easy to settle into a countering game with the whole heap of parries which are taught and the emphasis on defence. Chi sau is all about responses too and can IMHO encourage a defensive mind even when one is looking to capitalise. It seems very easy to become defensive.

Do you consider your attacking and initiating capabilities at all? I hope so…

I am going to do an experiment and stop chi sau practise and see how I compare to my partners who do after a few months.

What guard do you people use in sparring- wu sau, tan sau anything else? I use a high wu sau that guards the chin and chest.>

Post: Fa Jing:

high wu sau

chi sau IMHO is offensive defense, i want to strike without getting struck. I see your point though zefff, you could get very defensive with it. I just keep on the offense. chi sau to me if more for sensitivity. we have sparring matches to put the principles to work.>

Post: …formless…:

Heres my take on sparring and Chi Sao. This is just my opinion, not an attack of ANY kind on anyone or their training. I just calls it how I sees it :mrgreen:

From a lead stance, the rear hand is always right by my chin in a sort of high Wu Sao position. From there we apply one of our San Sik called “triangle blocking” and it basically goes like this. If the opponent throws a roundhouse with their right, the Wu Sao shoots out into a Lan Sao simultaneously with a slight pivot and countering straight punch. If the opponent throws a roundhouse with their left, I could either shoot the Wu Sao out into a soft palm block or initiate a Lan Sao with my right arm while countering with the left (depends on the situation). Chances are I’ll just soft palm it because coupled with a simultaneous counter punch it provides sufficient blockage with minimal hassle. Should the opponent be crafty enough to try some combos it is quite easy to perform both in a sort of single, continous motion. Not to mention the fact that each parry is coupled with a simultaneous punch that also provides coverage from potential combos. For lower level attacks we’ll do the same exact thing with a cultivating arm instead of Lan Sao. For attacks right down the ole center line, theres a number of options including tan sao, flapping wing palms, loy lim, bong sao, chasing the shadow or my favorite: white crane sweep.

In class we practice this with focus mitts and shin guards (as we also include stop kicks) and I must say it has generated some excellent results for me. The parries are short, compact and very powerful (utilizing triangles for optimium strength). When combined with my other skills from the San sik, such as the Arrow step punch, I’ve found it VERY easy to get in close to sparring partners who used to own me. One friend in particular who has exceedingly long, gorilla-like arms was shocked to find it was almost impossible to keep me from getting right up in his face.

Personally, I think learning how to get right up next to your opponent is one of the most important skills for all students of Wing Chun. Chi Sao skills aren’t really worth much unless you can get into Chi Sao range w/o preexisting contact. This isn’t that easy! I have friends who study Wing Chun and while they have some nice Chi Sao abilities I continue to own their shit everytime we spar because they simply don’t have the fundamentals down.

I don’t think you need to stop your Chi Sao practice though, just take some time to spar with as many non-Wing Chunners as you can and work on ways to initiate attacks and ways to blend offense and defense into single and smooth continuous motions from VARIOUS ranges. Learning how to apply Wing Chun to people who take a different approach is crucial IMHO. You can do this without sparring all the time or sparring dozens of non-Wing Chunners…but sparring most certainly helps! Chi Sao is good for reflexes which can really help your Gung Fu, theres no doubt about it. But the emphasis I’ve seen many schools take on Chi Sao seems way out of proportion to the emphasis that should be placed on the very basic level stuff. As a result, you have people sort of “playing” chi sao together and it becomes a sort of ask and respond game as opposed to a means to develop sensitivity and penetrate weaknesses in your opponents defense. This probably depends on the level of the students playing Chi Sao as well the students themselves.

My 2 cents…>

Post: …formless…:

Lop Sao – To thumb or not to thumb…that is the question!

Back in the day at my first Wing Chun school, we practiced grabbing without the use of our thumb. So of course, Lop Sao was done without the use of the thumb. At my current school, the thumb is used when grasping for a lop sao.

Should the thumb be used for lop sao or is it too risky? How is the lop sao done at your school? Is excluding the finger that provides you a more powerful and stable grasp worth it because of the risk of injury? Is grabbing without the thumb sufficient in itself?

IMHO, I think caution should be used with the thumb and with everything I’ve seen thusfar there is caution used with the thumb (since getting it caught can be a fight-ending injury). For instance, the thumb is kept tucked in with tan sao, lan sao and pretty much everything I can think of. However, when it comes to the lop sao…the thumb is still included for maximum grip strength. Having compared my lop sao from both schools, I feel that my current method is giving me the best results (and I have tried both rather recently) but of course theres a number of confoudning variables. Soooo…

What is your take on the lop sao?>

Post: zefff:

I keep it in because I am happy with small tugs but bring it out for big jobs when I think I can pull it off.>

Post: …formless…:

Its true that sometimes with Lop Sao you don’t really need the extra grip the thumb provides. And its also worth mentioning that with sufficient training one can get the thumbless grasp up to ‘suitable’ strength.

I guess I just prefer using the thumb because I enjoy using what evolution has provided for me to have a grip superior to that of a chimp, even when a chimps grip is all I would need. :mrgreen:>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I tend to keep my thumb tucked in for every grip that doesn’t need the thumb to work. When I grab someone standing, unless I’m applying a lock I’m not usually looking to hold onto them, just move their arm either to get a reaction or to clear the way for a strike. In that case there’s no reason to grip with the thumb, especially because not using it makes it easier to move your hand off of their arm, and also makes it easier to fuk sao if they try to push into you.>

Post: …formless…:

Indeed theres no question that keeping the thumb tucked during any kind of bridging is important. Wrecking your thumb will undoubtedly end the fight right away. But when you’re not planning on just bridging and intend to either iniate some kind of limb destruction, or a throw, or both, I believe taking that extra step to get the thumb firmly around the arm is a good idea. Not always necessary, but in some cases I wouldn’t think to avoid it.

I was just curious if anyone here had applied Lop Sao during sparring and found a preference to either a thumb or thumbless grip? Can’t say I’ve truly pulled off a lop sao during sparring as of yet but I’d imagine that with the difficulty I’ve encountered thusfar that using the thumb should provide for me better results than not. Merely a personal preference as everyone has their differing methods of accomplishing the same thing. Its also worth considering that at my current skill level I don’t reeallly need lop sao. Getting my other basics down first is proving to be quite enough :mrgreen:>

Post: zefff:

CHOR MA!

turning in stance. On the heels or on the toe/balls of feet?>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Both at the same time. My teacher was very adamant about that.>

Post: zefff:

what? so with a flat foot? But you must have a bias to one though? You must feel summat? If you do mean flat, why did your teacher stress it?

I turn on the balls of my feet BTW.

respect.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I suppose I have a slight bias towards my heel, since I have a bad habit of leaning back slightly, buth other than that they’re pretty much flat. My teacher is very big on having a rock-solid horse, and if you turn flat-footed, you still have a horse at every point in the turn, and there are no weak points where you can be pushed off of your base. It also helps if you sink slightly as you turn. It just keeps your base completely solid even as you turn and move about, and once you get used to it it’s easy to turn very quickly this way.>

Post: zefff:

Well that sounds good, does performance vary on different surfaces though? What style of WC is it you study Gong Jau?>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I’ve done it outside on asphalt and concrete just fine, and normally we practice on carpet. The style is a mix of Hong Kong (Yip Man) style and Pan Nam. My teacher tends to place more emphasis on the Hong Kong style, so we use the same horse as Hong Kong people. I may not continue to train in it, though. I am not right now since where I go to school is so far from where I train, and since there is no one else of the same lineage down here I am looking into trying one of the Russian MAs to hold me over until I get back home. We’ll see what happens; there is plenty of good Wing Chun in this area so I might just end up training in a different lineage until I get back.>

Post: AmanuJaku:

I pivot on the heel, maybe slightly towards the ‘center’ of the foot. I find that turning this way is faster and more powerful for me.

note; this is modified from the way I was originally taught. Originally, I trained in LT’s system which emphisized turning on the ‘center’ of the foot (between the ball and the heel), but adopted the WSL method of pivoting on the heel.>

Post: Blade:

I find it very funny HK people piviot on their heels because when we are taught the pivioting the first mistake my instructor points out is that, when you turn on your heels your body doesnt move, unless you move your torso aswell, we turn on the balls of the feet so this actually moves the whole body abit to the side, but as you improve this becomes less appearent as it seems you piviot on the center without lifting your feet of the floor an inch, which is much more stable and faster.

and the straight punch we do, we extend the arm fully but instead of bumping the elbow joint upwards its as if the arm is extended horizontaly
we literaly throw our elbow into the target and the rest of the body follows, you will feel how your shoulder and back fly after it into the target, if you are too tense you may feel them kinda tense because you are not letting them go after your elbow and holding them back forcefully>

Post: zefff:

I asked about the turning because I saw in a vid recently where a man from HK WC was pivoting on the heels. I pivot on the balls but dont raise the heels more than a few millemetres. No gaps you could ever see. It appears that I shift on flat feet.

The centre does defo shift more when we pivot on the balls.

What is WSL that Amanjaku mentioned?

respect.>

Post: AmanuJaku:

WSL = Wong Shun Leung

Blade,

IMO, it depends on your goal. Pivoting to ‘get out of the way’ or pivoting for power. I believe pivoting on the balls of the feet ‘disconnects’ you from the ground and takes away from power generation. Sure it may move your body off the center, but so does a small offline step. Also, with the punch, I like to think of it as my leg, back and shoulder are driving my punch, not following after it.>

Post: …formless…:

[quote=AmanuJaku WSL = Wong Shun Leung

Blade,

IMO, it depends on your goal. Pivoting to ‘get out of the way’ or pivoting for power. I believe pivoting on the balls of the feet ‘disconnects’ you from the ground and takes away from power generation. Sure it may move your body off the center, but so does a small offline step. Also, with the punch, I like to think of it as my leg, back and shoulder are driving my punch, not following after it.[/quote 

Well for me personally, my weight distribution doesn’t change with my goal. In fact, I aim to accomplish both at the same time or rather, I pivot to get out of the way while simultaneously striking someone with power. or at least being able to strike someone with power. I’m sure you also aim for the same thing sometimes?

When in the neutral stance it feels like my weight in on the inside of both (although its pretty evenly distributed so I can move left or right with equal speed) feet as I try and sink down and really grab with my adductors. When I pivot to the right, I do so at the waist so that my feet don’t move. I also grip with my toes. Almost all my weight is transferred to my left foot pretty evenly while a little ‘left-over’ weight goes mostly towards the outside of my right foot.

I don’t really think it matters whether you pivot on the balls of your feet or your heels as long as you transfer your body weight from side to side, stay rooted, and try and keep things smooth and compact.

Note: pivoting on both heels feels really unstable compared to just a single heel or no heel at all. By that I mean if I pivot to my right, my left foot will stay flat and hold all my weight while my right foot lifts up and rotates on the heel. If you’re gonna pivot on both heels, I think you’re minimizing your ability to stay rooted and thats quite important. But if you can somehow stay solidly rooted in doing so, then it doesn’t really matter.>

Post: AmanuJaku:

…formless….

1. Shifting your weight to move offline and shifting weight for striking power are counter productive to each other. IOW, when you shift your weight offline it takes away from the energy of the strike. This can be proven with physics. You are correct though, sometimes it is reasonable to accomplish both.

2. IME, pivoting on both heels feels more rooted than one at a time. Also, I don’t need to lift either foot to pivot.>

Post: zefff:

Amanu’ mate, wot does ‘IOW’ and ‘IME’ mean?

“Shifting your weight to move offline and shifting weight for striking power are counter productive to each other.”

wot does this mean? I think I know what you mean but please solidify wot u mean as Formless didnt use those exact words.

It seems to me that you are working toward a tighter form and one which expends less energy as the form of rotation you are following needs less input. I can appreciate this but am worried that it does not ‘remove the line from centre’ enough. Respect though, I here wot u r saying. Maybe people can try it out. I did over this past week and TBH I can see the idea behind it but I like to attack people and feel this method is even more of a retreat (in terms of body weight position).

edit: I should add that AFAIK it doesnt matter (to a dgree) how far apart the points of the base are, when striking – what matters is the angle, direction and position where the point (the weapon) enters to strike.>

Post: …formless…:

[quote=AmanuJaku …formless….

1. Shifting your weight to move offline and shifting weight for striking power are counter productive to each other. IOW, when you shift your weight offline it takes away from the energy of the strike. This can be proven with physics. You are correct though, sometimes it is reasonable to accomplish both.

2. IME, pivoting on both heels feels more rooted than one at a time. Also, I don’t need to lift either foot to pivot.[/quote 

Uh…how exactly is it (according to what I stated) that they are different? If it can be ‘proven with physics’ then please by all means, open the discussion up to that level and explain why. The way I transfer my weight for both evasive pivoting and striking from the stance is exactly the same whether or not I want to do one or both at the same time. I can pivot and not strike or I can pivot and strike depending on my preference and the situation. As far as I can tell, this is anything but counterproductive because I don’t waste time thinking about seperate pivoting techniques for seperate occasions. The movement as I practice it accomplishes both goals.

Could you explain how you pivot on your heels without lifting your feet? I don’t see how that works.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I also use exactly the same pivot to turn as to pivot into a strike. The way we do it, your feet should stay in place (obviously they have to rotate, but they don’t have to move) as you turn to one side, and if you turn from one side to the other you should pass through your training horse in the middle. If you do it this way there are no weak spots in your stance, and it’s equally powerful no matter which way you’re facing.>

Post: zefff:

in my school if the punch doesnt hurt I will bite your nose off! :lol:>

Post: AmanuJaku:

IOW=In other words
IME=In my experience

And I assume that

TBH=to be honest
and
AFAIK=as far as I’m concerned

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Some other common forum abbriviations…

FWIW=from what I’ve witnessed
IMHO=in my humble opinion

Shifting weight offline, etc.;

In LT system, as with some others, when the weight is shifted the body moves off center. Or ‘revmoves the line from center’ if I interpet zefff’s meaning correctly.

In WSL system, as with some others, the body rotates on the center, not moving ‘off line’.

In the former, the ‘goal’ of the turn is (primarily) to get off line and (secondly) to strike. In the latter, the turn is solely for striking and moving off line is done with a step.

In turning to move off line, some energy is given to the offline movement and the direction of that energy is not in congruance with the energy of the strike therefor taking energy away from the strike.

I’m not suggesting that there is a separate turn for evasion and power, I’m just stating that evasion and power generation are two separate aspects of turning, having different and often contrary conditions. IMO, I would leave evasion for other aspects of footwork (stepping) and use turning for power generation.

Ultimatly, fighting/sparring is not stagnant, you are constantly moving, therefor stationary turning becomes a moot point.

As for turning on the heels without lifting the foot….I don’t know exactly HOW I do it, I just do. I could show you……. :wink:>

Post: zefff:

thanks for the explanation Amanujaku. So what is this WSL version and how does it differ from YM?

Jeez why cant we all just punch the man in his face if he pisses us off and call it martial art? :roll: :mrgreen: I am taking the piss but am interested in what you have to say mate.

cheers

zefff>

Post: AmanuJaku:

Wong Shun Leung was a senoir student of Yip Man and the sihing (and primary instructor) of Bruce Lee, so his method is technically Yip Man WC. Several ‘branches’ of Yip Man WC follow the same basic concepts as WSL and there are even several ‘branches’ from WSL that have become ‘famous’ in the WC community. Augustine Fong and Gary Lam to name a couple. I have been exposed to it from a student of Gary’s.

“Jeez why cant we all just punch the man in his face if he pisses us off and call it martial art?”

I suppose you could, as long as you made an art of punching the man in the face. :mrgreen:>

Post: zefff:

I know who WSL is mate I asked about his style and what is different about it. No worries. I can find out later.

But let me get this – basically its all a load of bollox because one man decides to put his name to summat he does in a slightly different manner than he was taught. Is that right?

I think its all cobblers because can you imagine if boxers were that conceited you would have a million and one styles and branches and a system fractured by politics and far removed from the simple practice of doing the business as the practioners jostle to protect their good names and reputations…which is what WC appears to have become.

Its a joke and a superflous waste of time as far as Im concerned. Im not dissin anyone at all but effectively punching the man in his face is what is most important.

As WSL said ‘just punch him on the nose’.

respect>

Post: AmanuJaku:

[quote=zefff I know who WSL is mate I asked about his style and what is different about it. No worries. I can find out later.

But let me get this – basically its all a load of bollox because one man decides to put his name to summat he does in a slightly different manner than he was taught. Is that right?

I think its all cobblers because can you imagine if boxers were that conceited you would have a million and one styles and branches and a system fractured by politics and far removed from the simple practice of doing the business as the practioners jostle to protect their good names and reputations…which is what WC appears to have become.

Its a joke and a superflous waste of time as far as Im concerned. Im not dissin anyone at all but effectively punching the man in his face is what is most important.

As WSL said ‘just punch him on the nose’.

respect[/quote 

Sorry, I guess I misinterpeted what you were asking. :(

As for ‘mehtods’ or ‘systems’ attributed to specific people…

Is Ip Man WC just a bunch of ‘bollox’ then?

To me, WC is a toolbox full of tools, how you use them is your ‘method’. Just because WSL, Leung Ting, Bruce Lee, Ip Man, or any other has there own ‘method’ for using WC doesn’t mean it’s dogma. I would refer to Augustine Fong’s WC as the Augustine Fong method, to Leung Ting’s WT as the Leung Ting method. It doesn’t mean its different WC, but it does differ in some details and most importantly….training methods.

I agree, if boxers were to do this, it would be as you have stated. But, in a sense they still do, only without all the ‘publicity’. I’m sure the name of a boxer’s trainer carries weight in the boxing community, otherwise it wouldn’t matter who the trainer was, the boxer would still be that good, right?

I agree that all the ‘hoopla’ in the WC community is a load of **whatever**, but who started it? Who perpetuates it? and mostly, Why?

Ultimately, in today’s world, you have thousands of good WC instructors. Some of which dilligently follow their instructor’s program. And then you have the ones who have ‘mastered’ (whatever this means to you) WC and believe they have an approach that can teach people how to use the tools better, more effectivly, in a shorter amount of time, or whatever. So to keep track of ‘who did what’ it’s just easy to say that it’s *so-and-so’s* method of WC.

I venture to guess, in the next ten years we will hear about many more ‘methods’ popping up.>

Post: zefff:

Thats why I think its better to just say my name is….now give me your money! :mrgreen:

thanks for your reply mate.>

Post: …formless…:

[quote=AmanuJaku IOW=In other words
IME=In my experience

And I assume that

TBH=to be honest
and
AFAIK=as far as I’m concerned

Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Some other common forum abbriviations…

FWIW=from what I’ve witnessed
IMHO=in my humble opinion

Shifting weight offline, etc.;

In LT system, as with some others, when the weight is shifted the body moves off center. Or ‘revmoves the line from center’ if I interpet zefff’s meaning correctly.

In WSL system, as with some others, the body rotates on the center, not moving ‘off line’.

In the former, the ‘goal’ of the turn is (primarily) to get off line and (secondly) to strike. In the latter, the turn is solely for striking and moving off line is done with a step.

In turning to move off line, some energy is given to the offline movement and the direction of that energy is not in congruance with the energy of the strike therefor taking energy away from the strike.

I’m not suggesting that there is a separate turn for evasion and power, I’m just stating that evasion and power generation are two separate aspects of turning, having different and often contrary conditions. IMO, I would leave evasion for other aspects of footwork (stepping) and use turning for power generation.

Ultimatly, fighting/sparring is not stagnant, you are constantly moving, therefor stationary turning becomes a moot point.

As for turning on the heels without lifting the foot….I don’t know exactly HOW I do it, I just do. I could show you……. :wink:[/quote 

Heh…curse the internet as it always makes these kinds of discussions SO MUCH more difficult. But I think I understand what you’re saying, or rather, I understand how you pivot and why. I believe the Chu Shong Tin school of thought is quite similar in this regard.

However, I’m not sure I see how the energy expended in a transference of weight to one side or another, which results in a pivot of 90 degrees, is not in congruance with the energy of the strike. It certainly feels like it when I’m punching the focus mitts! What I mean to say is, there isn’t some energy expended towards a seperate offline movement. The offline movement is just a result of pivoting in place at that point in time. In doing this movement I can still attack my opponents centerline from my centerline while moving my body off of his centerline. I can combine the same exact hip movement with a step to get even more powerful results.

Also, just because fighting and sparring involves continual change, that doesn’t mean that ‘stationary’ turning is a moot point. Besides, thats my whole point. The pivot is stationary in the sense that my feet haven’t moved and are still gripping the ground and yet, it still provides the ability to evade and strike without a parry. Thus, one may compensate for the varying complexities of sparring and fighting without even moving your feet. This also highlites what I perceive to be one of the most fundamental aspects of truly powerful striking…its all in the hips. Ok so its not ALL in the hips but I believe that a lot of it is.

But don’t get me wrong either, I’m not saying evasion is limited to just pivoting in place. I’m just saying that when it comes down to it, I just pivot. Evasion and power generation may both result. I don’t pivot just for power or just for evasion. The situation dictates the goal or ultimate purpose of the pivot. I just apply it where I see fit.>

Post: AmanuJaku:

That’s a good summation of what I was relating.

I think, from my former WC training, because the ‘offline’ shifting of the body is so dramatic (or at least taught that way), that in comparison to my latter training that creates the notion of different ‘purposes’ (power/evasion).

For the most part I would agree with;

“But don’t get me wrong either, I’m not saying evasion is limited to just pivoting in place. I’m just saying that when it comes down to it, I just pivot. Evasion and power generation may both result. I don’t pivot just for power or just for evasion. The situation dictates the goal or ultimate purpose of the pivot. I just apply it where I see fit.”>

Post: …formless…:

You know I just realized that my friends who do WC happen to study under Gary Lam. I could just ask them to demonstrate how they turn so that I might see exactly what you’re talking about.>

Post: AmanuJaku:

That’s a good idea.

Please note, my statements are from my own perspective as it has been influenced by my past and present training and does not nessisarily represent Gary or his students’ instruction specifically.

My training is mostly from Leung Ting system with a small taste of Gary’s, my comments are how I percieve what I have learned.

BTW, …formless…, which students or whereabouts are you. (PM me if you’re more comfortable with that)>

Post: zefff:

WC guys – what do you think about head and waist movement? slipping, bobing and weaving?

I do a lot of it but should I rely more on the parries?>

Post: Gong||Jau:

I’m not really a Wing Chun guy at the moment, but I’d like to take a stab at this one anyway :). I think as long as you keep your back straight there’s nothing necessarily wrong with it (getting hit is better than not getting hit, right?). However, if you’re fighting someone at the optimal range for Wing Chun, I would beware of breaking your structure too much by moving at the waist, since I think that would open you up to being clinched, kneed, or both. I guess what I’m trying to say is if you’re going to do it, it will probably save you having to parry some strikes, but be aware that you’re going outside the realm of (what I would consider) Wing Chun, and therefore are probably going to have to use some stuff outside of that realm if you want to get yourself back in (by out I mean out of structure and out of where Wing Chun is effective, and by in I mean back to a solid horse and structure). I hope this makes some sense because it’s finals week and I’m not thinking too clearly :wink:>

Post: zefff:

yes it made sense apart from this bit:

“getting hit is better than not getting hit, right?”

We dont do that at my school! :lol:

I know what you mean about going out of and into WC structure but I find its good sometimes to avoid any contact until the strike itself hits. I have started to include a few sweeps and throws and find these are really helpful for when Im out of WC and cant get back though. But when slipping and stuff I always bend at the knee more than the waist. Its important as you did say.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Whoops :oops:

The really sad part is I had to read that sentence twice to figure out what was wrong with it :lol:

Yeah moving at the knees is better than at the waist, IMO, and I believe that is how boxers slip punches as well.>

Post: lakan_sampu:

hey zeff, you’re and escrimador, right? what are some factors in WC that you find easy to blend with Escrima?>

Post: zefff:

that is a good question mate and hopefully others can answer too as there are literally thousands of people who have studied both at some time but many people get different things from it as we are all better at picking up one thing and not so good at others.

Just to let you know, I began learning Eskrima and Panantukan boxing in unison with WC so at first I never ever moved like any traditional WC man. We very rarely did chi sau as the main playground was sparring. We did do some chi sau and other common drills like bong sau – lap sau, tan sau – fak sau etc but it was only taught after hubud, tappi-tappi, sombrada and some sinawali which I loved because of the inventiveness and flexibilty that you can develop.

The aspects of WC we did focus on were the infighting, simultaneous defence and attack and economy in motion in everything. I guess you could call it modified WC but the way my Sifu saw it, he was only interested in creating great MA’s who could prove everything they learn in sparring. He had gone through the whole WC curriculum and now saw that certain things were not neccessary. Thats what I think he believed anyway, although if you asked – he would still show you things he wouldnt otherwise have done.

I then went away to university and did some Rapid Arnis and a more traditional WC. Its only after practising them that I realise that WC men try to do everything correctly when they are learning but then when they are past 3rd form then they move naturally and you cant tell what art they have done from how they move.

I still prefer to move in a Panantukan manner and will spar with the X footwork and stuff. but in a real street confrontation I would probably be in right there with WC’s stepping and turning. Its hard for me because I always get angry forget most of what happened when ever Ive had a streetfight which is very rare.

The easiest thing I found to blend is the parries and strikes, the elbows, headbutts and guntings, locks and chokes all work really well. The hardest thing for me is two things: the footwork and weight distribution. WC basics is very flat-footed and the weight is on the rear leg making big movements such as advancing, very hard to do with success. It does not feel right after having experienced the highly mobile and versatile footwork of Eskrima. But the answer is in your head. You see of course you can even up the weight distribution but also it helps to consider that smaller movements is what WC is all about. I sparred with many WC dudes and thought “yeah I can bust them up with my mobility” but in practice they make small movements and small advancements which makes the stop hit harder to pull off on them and they also anticipate and look forward to the contact you will give them, meaning your PIA and ABC have to well above theirs. What I mean is, any half decent WC man knows what targets he is presenting, so he can anticipate the likelyhood of your attack and so win by enticing you into his range.

What also is quite hard is cultivating waist power and control from the two stances. WC swivels on feet together as if a pole has impaled me from above into the floor below, and the body (for me) feels more of a solid unit when striking but in Eskrima I use the weight-free foot (lead or rear) as the hinge and the body feels like more of a spring or whip. But keeping up practice of both for optimum power obviously takes double the time unless you dont mind not being specific in your practice.

I just typed all this out but havent read it back cos Im at work. I’ll read it later and if it doesnt make sense I’ll amend it.>

Post: Gong||Jau:

Zefff, not all lineages of Wing Chun put most of their weight on the rear foot. One I know for sure distributes the weight evenly (more like a Tai Chi horse), and while I do not know of any that put more weight on the front foot, it’s probably possible. It sort of sacrifices structure for mobility, but once you achieve a high enough level of competence you can hold your structure without the power of the Hong Kong horse to back it up. However, at more normal levels of skill, the man using the Hong Kong horse will generally throw the other guy out unless the one using the other horse can work him over from different directions. I’m not trying to correct you or anything, I just thought you might find this interesting.>

Post: zefff:

yes it is interesting because I remember a long time ago when I confronted my Sifu about weight distriubution, expecting a bollocking I was simply told that it is no problem to adjust the body weight in different situations. It makes sense. When we spar I notice a rough 50/50 stance, maybe 60/40 in my class mates.

The thing is, when sparring in Panantukan mode I might go to an extreme when throwing the cross, probably 85/15%. Do any WC peeps ever go this far forward while still maintaining a WC structure?>

Post: lakan_sampu:

nice zeff…….I agree with those elbows and other things that you said especially when after you go in such a short range in Arnis, you get to do some rapid hand strikes that are considerably hard to interrupt…>

Post: lakan_sampu:

some of us in Kombatan do parries in palit-palit drills and spariing that are basically similar to WC ones (IMO) which bring other students into surprise when they are cught off balanced with such. I do these with some palis palis (go-with-the-force; not palit-palit) moves.>

Post: zefff:

Hurray!!!! I got a surprise grading yesterday and passed Chum Kiu! I hate grades and never consider them but I managed to pass somehow. I am now on Biu Jee level apparently but Ive been dipping my toes into the 3rd form for a while now and it seems quite easy to learn. I know its more about a different mindset than any ‘killer’ techniques but if anyone has done this, how quickly can it be absorbed?

I need to get this overwith so I can get back into hardcore weapons and some proper grappling later! 8)

peace.>

Post: …formless…:

Well done Zeff. I’ve always found surprise tests to be quite fun :mrgreen: What sort of thing did you have to do?

I’ve found that with a solid foundation, most of the forms tend to come quite naturally in terms of general movement. I think the biggest problem lies within learning how the movements of the form feel in application and then applying those experiences to your practice of the form by itself. I see many people performing forms without even the foggiest notion of what the movments are used for and how they should feel when practicing them in the air.>

Post: zefff:

I had to explain what its all about, how its used and why, then explain each technique in the form with correct :roll: terminology and what its for then I had to explain various stepping methods etc then demonstrate an intermediate level of chi sau and sparring demonstrating chum kiu methods.>

Post: dscott:

I know it’s probably been asked before but how long have you been studying?>

Post: zefff:

Who me? I started Eskrima in 98 but now only do odd bits just to try and keep the memory of it in my body and hands although I still use the footwork and some of the hands. I will go back to it one day as it is my root art and I havent finished with it at all . I did a year and a half of (IMHO) bogus WC along with some Arnis and kickboxing while I was a student and then started some decent Wing Chun probably two years ago.

Besides a tiny bit of boxing in my teens that is my entire CV.>

Post: Barny:

Hello all, don’t mean to butt in to this thread but it seemed as good a place as any to introduce myself. Names barny, nothing to do with the avatar but it sought of suits I guess. Have studied WC for about ten years now and am hoping to find some genuine discussion about WC and martial arts in general… look forward to talking with you all.>

Post: vladimir:

[quote=EvilScott 
Dim Mak points can be on top of eachother – there are MANY points but most aren’t a big deal. If you hit just one point it hurts a bit, two points and it hurts a LOT, three points and it hurts a LOT. Four or more and you can cause unconciousness and eventual death by shock.[/quote 

Is that what the “touch of death” refers to?>

Post: bil gee:

I tried the touch of death and served 5 years prison.>

Post: nbotary:

[quote=bil gee I tried the touch of death and served 5 years prison.[/quote Why don’t you use it on yourself and make everyone here happy that you’re gone… Just a thought…>

Post: bil gee:

[quote=nbotary [quote=bil gee I tried the touch of death and served 5 years prison.[/quote Why don’t you use it on yourself and make everyone here happy that you’re gone… Just a thought…[/quote 

nah im loved here noob.>

Post: zefff:

Dont ruin this thread please, lets keep it on topic.

How do you make your lap sau work? I have great trouble making it work under pressure in sparring. How can we make lap sau really work?>

Post: Maelut:

“”How do you make your lap sau work? I have great trouble making it work under pressure in sparring. How can we make lap sau really work?””

Personally, I think the most important thing is to do a lot of forms, and the two-man drills of Ving Tsun. Once the lop sau is in your arms, it’ll come out when it needs to. My experience is that trying to force a technique into a situation usually results in me being a whole lot less relaxed, and my body not doing what it knows it should.

Only my two cents, though. Train hard.>

Post: zefff:

but what makes a lap sau harder to work than a gum sau? If its too hard to pull off, why bother?>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

Like any technique practice makes perfect. Do it until you get it right.>

Post: zefff:

Thanks but you didnt answer my questions.>

Post: Maelut:

I think the point is that you can’t answer the question with words. It’s just a question of training lop sao, and accepting that it will come out when it’s right for it to come out. If it never comes out for you, that’s fine. But also something I like to think about is that the drills teach me more than just a “move” or specific technique; it build sensitivity and relaxation, and helps me to condition my body. So even if I don’t know a specific “application” of a drill, I’m still going to train that drill because of the other benefits it gives me.>

Post: zefff:

Well I wanted to steer the conversation towards questioning the use of WC techniques that are considered simple but are actually quite complex…lap sau is one of them IMHO. In a drill we can chill out and relax and do almost anything we feel but out of the drill when the opponent is striving, I find certain techniques are used less or never. This may be fine but I want to know why these moves are used less and maybe figure a way to bring them back into use with some innovation after insight. I thought we could discuss more avant-garde applications with words here as long as we all understand the basic mechanics of the techniques. Just training harder, without any thought for what you are doing cant go on forever. Ahh well.

P.S. How can a drill condition you?…and if you dont know why you are doing something you should ask straightaway.>

Post: zefff:

shit man it went quiet round here eh?>

Post: vladimir:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/040521.html>

Post: zefff:

shit man its STILL quiet around here! :roll:

If this Lap sau never comes out, why should I bother to continue training it? Isnt that a waste of time?>

Post: meathead:

okey i need an explenation on wing chun

-i realy can’t understand why in wing chun they don’t use hip rotated punches even with hip rotation you can do relaxed punches
-and does the style have any upper kicks in the head,
is flexibility of legs important at all?
-people say the good thing about wing chun is that even old people can do it unlike streinght fighters that can only do it while they are yung,
but is that realy true? i mean have you ever seen an old wing chun man defeat a yung karate or kick-bokser master with full of muscle and speed?>

Post: zefff:

Im not a Wing Chun knowledge base or anything like that at all but being as EvilScott, Formless and others arent around lately I will try my best.

In wing Chun practice you should develop and use power from the waist. I can only talk about myself but the main difference I notice is that (beyond the obvious flat foot), in a regular boxing type stance the foot is the hub that creates the force but in Wing chun flat foot mode its the waist that is the hub. Its kind of like this: imagine you are a door. In boxing mode your foot is the hinge but in WC mode a pole is thrust down the middle of the door and now it can swing both ways. It can only really be developed well with shadow boxing, pad and bag work not constant air punching.

No kicks to the head (although there is a high kick in the 2nd form), but I still practice round, side, cresent, axe, hook and various jumping kicks. Even if you might never use a flamboyant move, it still is good to have some flexibilty in the bag no? Flexibility is important to any fighting art, you would be surprised but all fighters stretch to some extent. Even groundwork specialsts and boxers. If they dont, they should! …and not just legs but all joints can gain flexibilty. If you arent supple, take supplements and change your diet. It doesnt matter how old/inflexible you are, fair enough you might be at a disadvantage but even a small gain is better than nothing. The most important quality in the legs IMHO is fitness, explosive power and mobility in the legs. The legs propel and support all movement and attacks in the whole body. Without good wheels the guns are near useless.

I train with one old guy who is very good. He makes it work because he doesnt ‘fight’ with people when we spar. He is only interested in imposing himself. If he tried to ‘compete’ then he would be worse off. I think this is the key a lot of people miss. I notice he ‘competes’ more when he wants a workout.

IMHO WC should be studied and ditched as soon as possible. By that I mean take on the mechanics and understand whats what but then forget it and just live your life. I dunno if that makes sense but thats what I think right now. BTW I am not a high rank so dont take my stuff as gospel.

peace>

Post: meathead:

ditched as soon as possible?
my teacher told me that if understood wing chun i would understand any art,
so do you mean by that?
train it untill your understood it and then ditch it?
why should it be ditched?>

Post: zefff:

The traditional WC curriculum is setup so that you learn it all quickly. There are only a few forms and not many techniques at all. Its no big deal. People make it more complicated in their own head but if you want to learn WC quickly I reckon you could get good fitness and condition and learn all three emptyhand forms, dummy, 8 chop knives and pole in 1 year and master it in 1 more if you studied fulltime.

WC is just like a language. It is a way of having a physical conversation. It is a set of questions and answers. You should ditch it IMHO because once you know whats what, you can focus on understanding yourself as a person and what motivates you etc.

I dont understand WC so I dont know if I can understand any art but I do know that knowing self should be gained before trying to understand others.

I am not just talking about physical technique.

Anyway, if you are just learning WC (apologies if I am presumptious) you should forget all these questions and get down to hard graft followed by analysis of mechanics.

Body mechanics is all that should be on your mind at the start!

peace>

Post: wingchunnz255:

Hey sup peoples yeah Wing chun is pretty cool art espcially if you have a good teacher.

I’m part of the Ip ching lineage and thoughly enjoying it ive been doing it for 6months and have learnt a great deal from my teacher.

And i find that Wing chun is enjoyable and doesnt really get my ass kicked like other maritial arts ive tried like karate.

I like how wing chun is a complete system and yeah pretty cool.and dislike how other martial arts steal and copy concepts from wing chun kung fu because their system isnt complete becausd they aint teaching karate or whatever they teaching wing chun kung fu.

my favoruite moves at the moment is wao sau and lap sau and learning how 2 breathe correctly really helps your wing chun from my personl experince and opnion.>

Post: zefff:

Whassup bro,

How do you know if its a complete system if you havent completed it yet?>

Post: wingchunnz255:

[quote=zefff Whassup bro,

How do you know if its a complete system if you havent completed it yet?[/quote 

from my teachers but what i was trying 2 say that other marital arts tend 2 steal the gud bits in wing chun.

ExampleLike if ur teaching a lap sau in karate ur not teaching karate aye lol teaching something else totally off topic lol.>

Post: Blade:

Like many things and skills, there is no limit to how good you can get if you follow the right steps, a teacher is one of the tools used to help you evolve into greater skill levels, im sure you can learn wingchun just by experimenting with your body by urself, but what you will achieve without instruction may vary between perople and circumstances.

i dont practice wingchun anymore but its really not about techniques, which is just like i believe other martial arts should be, about a state of mind and body, a collection of techniques for specific situations alone arent much.>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

A karate man stealing techniques from yongchunquan is like a monkey taking an AK47. Can the monkey cause some damage? Sure. But will the monkey be able to do as much damage with it as a trained solider? Well, maybe if it?s like a super monkey, but probably not.

Karate practitioners who go to a seminar or a couple of months of classes and bring back kung fu techniques to their schools really don?t understand what they?ve just learned. The same can be said for a kung fu practitioner learning shortly from a karate school. See what I mean?

Moral of the story: Don?t get irritated when you think someone is ?stealing? from a style. Applaud them if they get it right, laugh if it?s a monkey with a machinegun (or run, choose at your discretion).>

Post: wingchunnz255:

[quote=WushuPadawan001 A karate man stealing techniques from yongchunquan is like a monkey taking an AK47. Can the monkey cause some damage? Sure. But will the monkey be able to do as much damage with it as a trained solider? Well, maybe if it?s like a super monkey, but probably not.

Karate practitioners who go to a seminar or a couple of months of classes and bring back kung fu techniques to their schools really don?t understand what they?ve just learned. The same can be said for a kung fu practitioner learning shortly from a karate school. See what I mean?

Moral of the story: Don?t get irritated when you think someone is ?stealing? from a style. Applaud them if they get it right, laugh if it?s a monkey with a machinegun (or run, choose at your discretion).[/quote 

yeah true that aye.

acutally ive studied in karate for a couple of years and wing chun is new 2 me still still frustrating espcially certain moves,

lol @monkey wiv a machinegun.

and im not irritated just think that its disrepectful to the marital art.

but yeah anyways any tips of helping my tan sells and footwork?>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
Karate practitioners who go to a seminar or a couple of months of classes and bring back kung fu techniques to their schools really don?t understand what they?ve just learned. The same can be said for a kung fu practitioner learning shortly from a karate school. See what I mean?

Have you tested this opinion of yours?

What makes these arts so profound that a seasoned martial artist cannot be taught a technique, then go and practice it and make it his/her own?

I learned a thai round kick (some may say the strongest kick around) in about 6 dilligent months of training and still practice it almost everyday.
I picked up seoinage my first time being shown and use it frequently. I practice with a winchun man (sunnzi), ask him if i can chainpunch after a few weeks of practice.

The problem with your analogy is that you underestimate people’s capacity to learn. Guess where underestimating someone gets you?

-bamboo>

Post: wingchunnz255:

[quote=bamboo 
Quote:
Karate practitioners who go to a seminar or a couple of months of classes and bring back kung fu techniques to their schools really don?t understand what they?ve just learned. The same can be said for a kung fu practitioner learning shortly from a karate school. See what I mean?

Have you tested this opinion of yours?

What makes these arts so profound that a seasoned martial artist cannot be taught a technique, then go and practice it and make it his/her own?

I learned a thai round kick (some may say the strongest kick around) in about 6 dilligent months of training and still practice it almost everyday.
I picked up seoinage my first time being shown and use it frequently. I practice with a winchun man (sunnzi), ask him if i can chainpunch after a few weeks of practice.

The problem with your analogy is that you underestimate people’s capacity to learn. Guess where underestimating someone gets you?

-bamboo[/quote 

I think maybe what he said comes off as underestimating a person but i think its just his opnion of what he thinks of it.

Yeah Thai kicks are pretty strong but any kick and any punch can be strong if u work on it.

I think when u start of with a marial art its a concept to your own fighting style and a base for working on your own skills and ablities.>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
I think maybe what he said comes off as underestimating a person but i think its just his opnion of what he thinks of it.

I understand that, I am challenging his opinion. We all have opinions and often they are based on nothing yet we defend them or spout them and claim they need not be defended because they are simply opinion.

On this site we are discussing the martial arts, some opinions weigh heavier than others because of actual experience.

I can say an F-16 is harder to fly than a cessna, but i’m talking out of my ass because I’ve never done it. Just because its an “opinion” does not safeguard it from being challenged. Any and everything I write here is open to discussion and challenge.

-bamboo>

Post: wingchunnz255:

[quote=bamboo 
Quote:
I think maybe what he said comes off as underestimating a person but i think its just his opnion of what he thinks of it.

I understand that, I am challenging his opinion. We all have opinions and often they are based on nothing yet we defend them or spout them and claim they need not be defended because they are simply opinion.

On this site we are discussing the martial arts, some opinions weigh heavier than others because of actual experience.

I can say an F-16 is harder to fly than a cessna, but i’m talking out of my ass because I’ve never done it. Just because its an “opinion” does not safeguard it from being challenged. Any and everything I write here is open to discussion and challenge.

-bamboo[/quote 

Yeah true that but even so generally the people that made the opnions about a art is because they talk 2 other marial artist that acutally have acutal experince in that and they agree of what they said but yeah generally if everyone says that some martial arts steal of others then it probably happens just some people arent willing to admit it and notice that thats a problem but yeah blah lol.

I can honestly say with experince ive learnt more in wing chun than i have with karate yet everyone martial art has a good point and in saying that if you look for the bad your’ll find the bad look for the good your’ll find the good but thats what i think of.

i just hate it when your learning a martial art the teacher is good at what he teachers yet he doesnt preach what he teaches in terms of how you act towards other people not the physcially side.

And it suck thats some teachers will say people have screwed me in the past all this all that giving the students their burdens when all the student wants to learn.

Example teacher says You should treat people how they want to be treated.Obviosuily you think isnt that wrong isnt it you should treat others how you want 2 be treated? yeah in saying that what it means not everyones the same and everyone has their needs i may give u coke and ur like i dont want dis i want sprite.

Then he says ive learnt that people how have screwed me in the past ive learnt 2 treat others like shit and i seem 2 get a better response?

yeah you probably would have but it shows that to me personally i dont like 2 be treated like shit which shows his qutoe is totally full of shit either way he trys 2 show his reason what he says just thinks what a ass.

But yeah anyways lol teachers dont give your students stupid burdens of your own if your business is going down or you having money problems either ruck up the price or teaching is not for you cause we cant give u extra money just for nothing and dont bring ur persona issues to class for me the only problem is money and ive had a hard life and teachers should be understanding to that not to the point they teaching for free.just annoying when uve paid for something they treat u like shit.>

Post: zefff:

man I remember when I used to type like that. :lol:>

Post: bamboo:

Wingchunnerguy- Slow down, use periods and one thought per paragraph please.

That was extremely difficult to follow.

-bamboo>

Post: nbotary:

[quote=zefff man I remember when I used to type like that. :lol:[/quote 
Me too!!! I think I was four… :lol: :lol: :lol:>

Post: …formless…:

[quote=wingchunnz255 Hey sup peoples yeah Wing chun is pretty cool art espcially if you have a good teacher.

I’m part of the Ip ching lineage and thoughly enjoying it ive been doing it for 6months and have learnt a great deal from my teacher.

And i find that Wing chun is enjoyable and doesnt really get my ass kicked like other maritial arts ive tried like karate.

I like how wing chun is a complete system and yeah pretty cool.and dislike how other martial arts steal and copy concepts from wing chun kung fu because their system isnt complete becausd they aint teaching karate or whatever they teaching wing chun kung fu.

my favoruite moves at the moment is wao sau and lap sau and learning how 2 breathe correctly really helps your wing chun from my personl experince and opnion.[/quote 

There is so much wrong with this post that I just puked all over myself multiple times. No joke. I even dry-heaved a couple times and spat up some bile.

First of all, Wing Chun isn’t any more “complete” than any martial art focusing primarily on stand-up tactics. Second, Wing Chun “techniques” and principles have either existed prior to the conception of Wing Chun in other arts or sprouted up on their own without any Wing Chun derived influences. As for stealing techniques, Wing Chun more or less represents a synergy of pre-existing principles found in arts like Xingyi, Ba Gua and White Crane to name a few. So one might argue that Wing Chun has stolen techniques but as any real MA practicioner knows by now: its not about specific technical application as this can vary a great deal depending on the situation. ITS ALL ABOUT PRINCIPLES and as it turns out, many Wing Chun principles and ideas can be found in other arts that existed prior to Wing Chun. So you see, all MAs interact with and feed off each other to create the various forms of MA that exist in a way not unlike music. The music of the past influences music of the future in the same that the MAs of the past influence those of the future.

As for Ip Ching lineage Wing Chun, lets put it this way: If I had the choice of practicing Ip Ching WC or smashing myself in the face with a tack hammer, I would smash my face all day. Trust me, I started at an Ip Ching school and like most Ip Man schools it blew beyond words. No conditioning, no sparring, and nobody with any skill. Plenty of political BS and lots of mumbling worthless platitudes.

At least they played some stereotypical Chinese music in the background while every student began the class with Siu Lim Tao. That sure was awesome!>

Post: zefff:

Hahaha! Formless, you trying to kickstart the wing chun wars again? :lol:

Yeah it is obvious that Mr 255 doesnt know much but thats not his fault. Anyway Ip Ching is Ip Man Wing Chun isnt it?

Ive said it before but Ive always thought Wing Chun seems to attract people who dont really like fighting at all.>

Post: dscott:

[quote=zefff Ive said it before but Ive always thought Wing Chun seems to attract people who dont really like fighting at all.[/quote 

Why’s that Zefff? I find that interesting because WC is my base art and I’m not a “fighter”. I’m 29 and I’ve never really been in a fight before. I always try to avoid fights but I train so that I can protect myself & my family if it comes down to it.>

Post: wingchunnz255:

[quote=zefff Hahaha! Formless, you trying to kickstart the wing chun wars again? :lol:

Yeah it is obvious that Mr 255 doesnt know much but thats not his fault. Anyway Ip Ching is Ip Man Wing Chun isnt it?

Ive said it before but Ive always thought Wing Chun seems to attract people who dont really like fighting at all.[/quote 

Nothing wrong with Ip ching lineage or any other one they all find just depends on your teacher minds pretty good.

Yeah i really dont like the rivarly with different wing chun lineages and stylez doesnt really bring people together and when people from those lineages or whatever teaches they always got that on their mind that someones going 2 steal their previous ancient chinese secrets .

At the end of the day i reckon when your learning wing chun or any martial art its just you gotta do your best and how much you have fun with it.

Yeah i dont start off with Siu lim Tao did u go to everyone single Ip ching school ? that includes the one around the world? or nah you just saying that in that one particular area of where u train formless?

yeah anyways in the end i dont care long as i get to the level i want to I’m pretty happy with wing chun.

p.s i dont like chinese takeaways lol i like Wendys hmmm hmm damm good food*flash flash*(blatent advertisement) rofl jks>

Post: zefff:

[quote=dscott 
Why’s that Zefff? I find that interesting because WC is my base art and I’m not a “fighter”. I’m 29 and I’ve never really been in a fight before. I always try to avoid fights but I train so that I can protect myself & my family if it comes down to it.[/quote 

Because in the modern era (Post Ip Man) Wing Chun is a system primarily occupied with combating thuggery and its traditionally been advertised as that.

People who want to be able to defend themselves against thugs without escalating the violence usually are the type who dont like fighting. The big flaw is not developing our aggression and attacking skill with Wing Chun but just focusing on the counter attacking game that self defence seekers focus on in WC practice…IMHO! ;)

Sorry if my post isnt worded well. All Im trying to say is WC is appealling to people who are scared of getting their faces smashed in by thugs. The irony is that WC principles compell the exponent to smash the thugs face in. So WC should teach you to be the thug for that split second and cut off his intention by smashing him instantly. Too many people like to chill out in class and just concentrate on the flowing parries while forgeting the need for a good pre-emptive capability.

We all say we want to protect ourselves but if we keep saying that then IMHO we run the risk of brainwashing ourselves with that slogan so when the threat actually comes we are rooted to the spot waiting for his haymaker to come so we can parry it – which gives the initiative to him. I know its basic stuff but we should be saying “I am learning WC so I can smash up any threats to my safety”. SMASH THEM UP WHEN THEY PRESENT THEMSELVES AS A TARGET!!!! :lol:

Mr 255,

as far as I am aware Ip Ching is a son of Ip Man that has created his own institute. His lineage is descended from Ip Man.

Also please let us know if English is not your first language. Its not a problem as you would not be the only multi-lingual member. I am trying but your posts seem quite hard to follow.>

Post: …formless…:

[quote=wingchunnz255 [quote=zefff Hahaha! Formless, you trying to kickstart the wing chun wars again? :lol:

Yeah it is obvious that Mr 255 doesnt know much but thats not his fault. Anyway Ip Ching is Ip Man Wing Chun isnt it?

Ive said it before but Ive always thought Wing Chun seems to attract people who dont really like fighting at all.[/quote 

Nothing wrong with Ip ching lineage or any other one they all find just depends on your teacher minds pretty good.

Yeah i really dont like the rivarly with different wing chun lineages and stylez doesnt really bring people together and when people from those lineages or whatever teaches they always got that on their mind that someones going 2 steal their previous ancient chinese secrets .

At the end of the day i reckon when your learning wing chun or any martial art its just you gotta do your best and how much you have fun with it.

Yeah i dont start off with Siu lim Tao did u go to everyone single Ip ching school ? that includes the one around the world? or nah you just saying that in that one particular area of where u train formless?

yeah anyways in the end i dont care long as i get to the level i want to I’m pretty happy with wing chun.

p.s i dont like chinese takeaways lol i like Wendys hmmm hmm damm good food*flash flash*(blatent advertisement) rofl jks[/quote 

Here here 255! Your approach to the MA world is one that I somehow managed to forget about. Thanks for the response. For the weekend Wing Chunner it really doesn’t matter what lineage you train or what you train so long as you are satisfied with what the training provides and don’t harbor unrealistic expectations about your abilities. As for my blanket statement about the start of every class in that lineage, it was based upon my training in the main Ip Ching lineage school within the US based out of Utah. It was for a short period of time and honestly I probably sounded much like you in talking about it then. In either case if you are satisifed with your training thats fine, just realize that Wing Chun is in most cases not what your peers and instructors make it out to be. It is not some vastly superior and original martial art that will enable you to take on anybody at anytime. Its just a collection of principles with specific strategies for applying those principles. If you want more potent fighting abilities think outside the box and learn for yourself how to apply the principles in ways that work for you by sparring with uncoopertative partners. Good luck>

Post: peajay:

Hi
Forgive the noob question – I’ve spent a load of time scanning through the forums, and I’m still wavering… I’m looking for something for myself (40) and my son (12).

I’ve looked at the local area, we have loads of choice actually, including Karate, Lau Gar, Judo, TKD… However, I have found that there is a Wing Chun class in my area. I’m tempted to give this a go. Wing Chun is described as an Internal style, with the practitioner being relaxed and using this as a way of offsetting an opponents power… Ok, I can see that.

Why the question then?

My son has been described (by me and others) as a loose collection of bones, moving in formation. He is very flexible and has been told he needs to do some low impact exercise – i.e. not weights etc. He would benefit from a routine that looks at increasing his muscle tone (not necessarily strength), muscle control, stability etc… I’m trying to give this to him, but with the added benefit of doing something that will assist him, more than spending time in a gym.

In your collective opinions, would the regime offered by Wing Chun provide this? I’ve been told Wing Chun isn’t physical, you’re not expected to go and do the 5 mile run before the training, plus the multiple press-ups etc (this was the Lau Gar regime). However, I’d have thought the regime would be about muscle control…

Or, do I need to get him on an exercise routine (say Pilates – but he’ll not stick at this, he’s 12, there is no such thing as a male pilates class), and then get him involved in a martial art should choose>

Post: zefff:

So the main benefit you are looking for is to build quality tendons and core muscles in your son?

If so he can get that with most non-contact sports. Basketball (or any team sports really) is really good for general fitness and musculoskeletal development too, plus skills like dexterity, co-ordination,team work and emotional development. I would say a team sport is better for a young persons development – physical and social. There are other pastimes like Gymnastics, Wrestling, activities like riding, kayaking, rock climbing, skating, skateboarding, bike riding or hey how about dance classes too (girls :) )!

But…if he wants to practice martial arts then I would say do not assume that one art is like this and another is like that. Wing Chun is an art designed for beating people up who get in your face. There are many branches and teaching styles, some are internally focused, some are balanced and some are external and only concerned with efficient self defence. Its as simple as that. Dont assume that you wont get punched in the face during sparring or not have to do any real exercise because no two schools are the same – but at the end of the day it is meant to be martial practice. Also relaxation is the key to success in any art, not just WC or Tai Chi or whatever.

WC at my school does offer a good exercise regime for kids (with them doing a lot of weapons, gymnastics etc) and adults but sadly no one can speak for WC totally as an art.

Good luck.

P.S. he is only 12 so maybe he will mature if you give him a chance. Check that his diet is good, his rest and sleep and not 24/7 console games and TV.>

Post: peajay:

Zefff (thats a lot of f’s)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply :)

We do the diet stuff, but standard sports doesnt float his boat. :roll:

He is interested in doing a martial art – he’s currently keen on Shotokan Karate (but that is because that is the one he’s tried – I’ll be going along with him tonight actually!).

One of the aims of him doing anything is the quality tendons, etc… but that is my sneaky by-product plan. HE want to learn a martial art, I am keen to restart one (its been oh… heck 25 odd years since I did karate, however, I gave it up and chased girls instead – sadly I feel that I’d have had more luck if i’d have stuck with the karate – 20-20 hind-sight) :roll: :lol: .

I’ve chatted with the chap who runs the Wing Chun school – he says it an internal form. So… I’m going to drag him along to give us a try, and some options… But, it’s good to get an understanding of what your going in for, before you do anything I find.

Thanks again>

Post: zefff:

You guys might like the WC, who knows…but…internal could mean anything from hours of strenuous low stances, breathing and fa jing cultivation to meticulous repetion of technique and technical explorations without resistance from an opponent or punchbag.

…so, it could be really hardwork and great for tendons and stabilising muscle groups or it could be quite poor for the physiques development.

Based only on your description as “internal” I would say try Judo as it has a good child development programme built into its structure (thanks to governing bodies and olympic status) and the art itself has great exercises and techniques which promote the development of core muscles and tendons while not teaching eye gouging strikes and knee crushing low front kicks! :lol: Judo may be percieved as a sport or an art that has been de-clawed but that is the ignorant view. You soon learn it has a very real, raw power after youve been smashed through the mat. :)

I think Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is a good form of exercise for the muscles and tendons too but its more expensive usually and not many children seem to take it in UK…if thats where u are from? …yes, BJJ or Judo. Then he can add Karate or Ju Jitsu or Wing Chun or whatever later on when he is a bit older and really has caught the budo bug.

peace>

Post: peajay:

:)

Coo… It’s nice to go to a forum, where you can stick your head above the parapet, and not get it flamed off! :wink:

Well, we went to Karate on Monday night, it’s WC on Wednesday night…
We’ll give them a go and make a choice (He’d like to do both, but that could get costly!!) :roll:

Karate – Hmmm, I seem to have forgotten what my stomach and arm muscles are for… situps, and pressups in the warm up – LOL gawd I have spent to long behind a desk, and in my car! :oops:

Thanks Zefff, I’ll report back later, after the WC tryout. :D>

Post: dscott:

[quote=peajay :)

Coo… It’s nice to go to a forum, where you can stick your head above the parapet, and not get it flamed off! :wink: [/quote 

Just as long as you don’t give us a reason……. :lol: :lol:

Also, good luck on the WC training. I used to train in Wing Chun and loved it. I’m trying to get myself back into training too.>

Post: peajay:

Must always remember to wear my flame proof undies, before posting :D

Well…
We went along to our first WC try-out.
It was jolly good.
Very friendly, up close and personal stance work, did some puching and blocking work, taking-the-line…
As has been said, not large on the cardio-vascular excercise… It was still a work out though – parts of me know that they have been used – maybe I need to learn to relax more :roll: :D

Son and I have chosen to do WC, rather than Karate!
We’ll formally sign up at the end of the month, but go along the rest of this month on a pay-as-you go basis. So in this respect, our little try-out sessions were useful 8)

Thanks guys… I’ll keep coming back to tell you (some may say bore you) on how we go on :D>

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