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YMAA Retreat
Original Poster: WushuPadawan001
Forum: Kung Fu Styles, Chinese Martial Arts
Posted On: 15-06-2006, 19:10

Orginal Post: WushuPadawan001: http://www.ymaa-retreatcenter.org/en

Wow. To say the least, I have mixed feelings about this. In any case, I hope it turns out for the best.

Post: nbotary:

Shit, if I had the money, you better damn well believe my ass would be signing up for this!!!>

Post: Stazzy:

It seems like a rather large commitment for someone to make, but I’m sure it’d pay off in the long run. How old do you think he expects his students to be? I’m guessing they’d have to be adults with a nice chunk of change saved up (90 friggen thousand!). That’s not something you find lying around under your couch cushion. :(>

Post: Haas:

:cry: T_T in my dreams maybe that stuff is at the other side of the freaking country

i wonder how much they teach>

Post: Gazelle:

And i was worried about my tuition fees!>

Post: angryrocker4:

How much is it upfront? I couldn’t find any specifics. I’m totally interested but it sounds too restricting to who they let in.>

Post: Haas:

a student must pay $30,000 to cover lodging, food, and training in the first year, $24,000 the second year, $18,000 the third year, $12,000 the fourth year, and $6,000 the fifth year. There is no payment from sixth to tenth year. Normally, if a student stays for five years, he should have already proven his perseverance, strong will, and patience. When a student completes the ten-year program, he will receive his $90,000 deposit back, so he is able to begin his own business.>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

I?ll be surprised if 3 students stick with this thing for the full 10 years.>

Post: angryrocker4:

If I had me a trust fund or something, I’d be there. As long as I could get time to powerlift. Any rich folks out there that want to make the payments for me? :twisted: 8)>

Post: sunnzi:

Sounds inviting. But I found to many flaws with the business model of what they are trying to accomplish (from what was presented on the site).
Wow – I’m sceptical!!! 8O>

Post: Haas:

do tell b/c i am thinking about going>

Post: bamboo:

Is there anyone that finished the entire program?

As well, are there enough people curently enrolled to sustain the program?

Has the program been successful enough to attract future students to help maintain the program for those in the later years?

The whole thing seems like a money grab to me. You can run a succsessful uchideshi (live in student) program without such a huge cash payout.

Look at Iwama or ask Oz if he shelled out all that dough for Budohouse.

-bamboo>

Post: opariser1001:

scam. i didn’t even look at the website, but uchideshi life is always supposed to be free. you pay through blood, sweat, and of course, cooking and cleaning!

i payed rent when i lived with my teacher, but only because he isn’t made of money, and can’t afford to feed me and all that without some sort of compensation.>

Post: angryrocker4:

Aha, but the question is, does microwaved hotdogs count as cooking?>

Post: opariser1001:

lol. nope! it’s usually some sort of combo of vegetables and rice! with some eggs thrown in for good measure.>

Post: Arjun:

From what I gathered from the site they accept 15 people for the ten year program. Five of them dont have to pay and will work 2-3 hours per day at the retreat to pay their tuition. The 90k the other students pay is also returned to them after ten years, so it really is only a deposit.

I don’t know if they have any success… they don’t accept anyone above 22 years old. But otherwise it seems on the up and up. I just wouldn’t be willing to make that large time commitment (10 years!).>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
The 90k the other students pay is also returned to them after ten years, so it really is only a deposit.

10 years is a long time my friend.

How many have finished the program and recieved thier money back?

90k after 10 years is nothing, the average canadian makes a paltry 40k a year, could train martial arts for 10 years and still come out way ahead.

In ten years will 90k be nearly enough to start a business? Has anyone finished the course, started thier own gym and made living out of it?

I know the founder of this course is revered by many in the KF world but from the outside looking in it simply looks “off”.

-bamboo>

Post: Arjun:

[quote=bamboo 
Quote:
The 90k the other students pay is also returned to them after ten years, so it really is only a deposit.

10 years is a long time my friend.

How many have finished the program and recieved thier money back?

90k after 10 years is nothing, the average canadian makes a paltry 40k a year, could train martial arts for 10 years and still come out way ahead.

In ten years will 90k be nearly enough to start a business? Has anyone finished the course, started thier own gym and made living out of it?

I know the founder of this course is revered by many in the KF world but from the outside looking in it simply looks “off”.

-bamboo[/quote 

Oh I agree. I think the school is rather new, but even if it were not I would say that a student that their graduation rate would likely be _very_ low. I think it is more so an unrealistic idea, probably altogether a bad idea, rather than a scam (just from my understanding of the history of the instructor and reading around on the site).>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Just a comment on legitamacy here….Dr. Yang is one of my three teachers’ teacher. Jeff Bolt, of tournament promotion, 30 influential martial artists of the last 30 years according to Inside Kung Fu etc. Dr. Yang has a Phd in physics and a Masters in Engineering and taught with Jeff in Houston until 1982. Then, he picked up his family and moved to Boston to open YMAA. He now owns and operates 48 schools, chiefly in Eastern Europe, and does seminars year round in Southern white crane, Northern long fist, and Yang style tai chi. Like my other two masters, Leung Shum and Ricky Anderson, he is old school. His seminars are quite good.

In fact, if I had that money I would send my son (of course my ex wife would never agree) or Wushu and Stazzi, both who have the skill and probably the stamina to do it. Unfortunately, my younger bro Wushu wants to be a screenwriter!!! As it is, I can attest to Dr. Yang’s legitamacy. My Shaolin master also wants to start a similar idea but both feel that, generally, Americans only appreciate something if money is spent for it. I know that Dr. Yang is trying to preserve his art. My feeling, quite honestly after almost 30 years, is that after my generation dies out Kung fu as it stands now may cease due to the inability of most people today ( and for that matter in karate, tae kwon do, etc) to stay around long enough to learn the true art. I respect his attempt though I, like my younger brother, am quite skeptical many will take up his offer.

Now, if he had done this 20 years ago, he might have succeeded. In any event, I wish one of my sigungs good wishes and hope he succeeds. I have had a talk with Jeff about this, since he is Dr. Yang’s senior student, and from a business aspect I concur the business model could be better.>

Post: Haas:

[quote=bamboo 
Quote:
The 90k the other students pay is also returned to them after ten years, so it really is only a deposit.

10 years is a long time my friend.

How many have finished the program and recieved thier money back?

90k after 10 years is nothing, the average canadian makes a paltry 40k a year, could train martial arts for 10 years and still come out way ahead.

In ten years will 90k be nearly enough to start a business? Has anyone finished the course, started thier own gym and made living out of it?

I know the founder of this course is revered by many in the KF world but from the outside looking in it simply looks “off”.

-bamboo[/quote 

well is there any other well known University’s out there that I should consider as far as Kung fu, or would this be my best bet ?>

Post: Arjun:

There are always the Wushu academies in China…>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
well is there any other well known University’s out there that I should consider as far as Kung fu, or would this be my best bet

Go to university to get a degree, talk to bloddy birds about how to go about getting quality KF instruction.

BB- I agree, i think Dr. Y had stars in his eyes. (-:>

Post: sunnzi:

[quote=Haas do tell b/c i am thinking about going[/quote 

Questionable problems:

1 – Not licensed as a Non-profit org. And state they have requested status. No issue no# given so you check them out. Normaly no-profit give money to X. Who or what organization is X?
2 – Dr. Y to be paid $160,000.00 yearly – 60,000.00 maintenance? $100,000.00 to him. From where? (non-profit org) That?s a heap for donations.
3 – Facilities not built as of yet. Dr. Y to give money to build facilities?
4 – This is the first time this will run, so not proven to work. ( if it craps out is the money gone – you betchaa)
5 – Giving back your money at the end – Who pays rent, hydro, food, for all. (nothing in life is free) Dr. Y a mullty millionaire??
6 – Local instructors to give (some) classes? Dr. Y must think local instructors are of high quality – why not join there dojo / club?
7 – lots of legal issues why this seems flawed – I could list lots but is boring legal stuff, like deposit, acquisition, contract, land, tax ect. so I wont.

The list could go on and on and this is just from the site.

If you have this kind of cash and are willing to blow it, find a good private instructor then donate the rest to your local children?s hospital.

My two cents:wink:>

Post: sunnzi:

[quote=Haas [quote=bamboo 
Quote:
The 90k the other students pay is also returned to them after ten years, so it really is only a deposit.

10 years is a long time my friend.

How many have finished the program and recieved thier money back?

90k after 10 years is nothing, the average canadian makes a paltry 40k a year, could train martial arts for 10 years and still come out way ahead.

In ten years will 90k be nearly enough to start a business? Has anyone finished the course, started thier own gym and made living out of it?

I know the founder of this course is revered by many in the KF world but from the outside looking in it simply looks “off”.

-bamboo[/quote 

well is there any other well known University’s out there that I should consider as far as Kung fu, or would this be my best bet ?[/quote 

If you live near NY there is a shaolin monk (real one from Hunan provence) with his own school. I think it was on the East side. I know its in the yellow pages or net.>

Post: Haas:

well I live in VA so this makes it a bit better. can I have a link or somthing>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

Haas, be wary of the Shaolin ?monks.? Just because they shave their heads and have some iron body training does not mean they are the real deal. The ?monks? in Texas who claim to have studied at the Shaolin Temple teach more Wushu than Kung Fu.

The truth about these supposed monks is that they train at one of the 40 or so martial arts schools situated around Shaolin Temple. BUT THEY DO NOT ACTUALLY TRAIN IN THE TEMPLE. Many of these schools claim to teach Shaolin Kung Fu, but for the most part they teach standardized Wushu routines and modernized forms.

If you really want to learn good, traditional kung fu then you?ll be better off looking for a teacher who does not wear robes and shaves his. Of course, that?s not to say that these ?monks? are not good at what they teach. Their, shall we say modern-shaolin is a very dynamic system (lots of aerials, butterflies, and what). Just be aware that it is not the truly classical kung fu normally associated with the Shaolin name.>

Post: sunnzi:

That is true in most cases, but the guy I refer to did study at Shaolin temple in Hunan province for 30 years and was a close freind of the Abot. I have seen 3 specials on him, one from A&E one on Biography and the other IFC. He does not where robes or is a monk anymore. Ithink he has a 5 year old daughter. I can’t find his site anymore and on Russbo they just released that the “Shaolin” name has been trademarked to the monks. I wonder if thats why I can’t find his site? Should still be in the NY yellow pages though.>

Post: nbotary:

I find it rather humorous that the lot of you keep forgetting that you have to apply to do this first. If you are one of the lucky number of students selected, you then go through and additional two week weed out period. After that, Dr. Yang will select the students that he wants to keep on. Would I like to do it, hell yeah – if I were younger and had the money to do so. But, I would have to “make the grade”, so to speak and be chosen like any other applicant. Would I stick around the full 10 years??? That I don’t know. However, you all keep forgetting that it’s 9 months on, 3 months off. It’s not like you’re living in seclusion from the rest of the world like a hermit for 10 years. I’m not trying to bash anyone over this, as we all have our opinions on it. I just think too many people are not reading what is actually in front of them and they’re quick to call it a scam. Will it work??? Who knows. I agree that the business plan could be better and that the price does seem a bit steep. But, you’re also paying for you’re room and board as well as training for probably 8 hours a day. You should definately have your opinions on the matter, just make sure you don’t overlook any of the other facts. Whoever applies and gets accepted will no doubt become a very well known and respected MA in Chinese Kung Fu should they stay the full duration of the course.>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
I agree that the business plan could be better and that the price does seem a bit steep

Thats really all thats being discussed.

You have to apply to get into alot of things, the process does not mean quality or quantity control, it simply indicates that the person is interested in participating .

-bamboo>

Post: Haas:

[quote=nbotary I find it rather humorous that the lot of you keep forgetting that you have to apply to do this first. If you are one of the lucky number of students selected, you then go through and additional two week weed out period. After that, Dr. Yang will select the students that he wants to keep on. Would I like to do it, hell yeah – if I were younger and had the money to do so. But, I would have to “make the grade”, so to speak and be chosen like any other applicant. Would I stick around the full 10 years??? That I don’t know. However, you all keep forgetting that it’s 9 months on, 3 months off. It’s not like you’re living in seclusion from the rest of the world like a hermit for 10 years. I’m not trying to bash anyone over this, as we all have our opinions on it. I just think too many people are not reading what is actually in front of them and they’re quick to call it a scam. Will it work??? Who knows. I agree that the business plan could be better and that the price does seem a bit steep. But, you’re also paying for you’re room and board as well as training for probably 8 hours a day. You should definately have your opinions on the matter, just make sure you don’t overlook any of the other facts. Whoever applies and gets accepted will no doubt become a very well known and respected MA in Chinese Kung Fu should they stay the full duration of the course.[/quote 

at what point did I or anyone lead you to believe we didn’t already know that?>

Post: Arjun:

[quote=WushuPadawan001 Haas, be wary of the Shaolin ?monks.? Just because they shave their heads and have some iron body training does not mean they are the real deal. The ?monks? in Texas who claim to have studied at the Shaolin Temple teach more Wushu than Kung Fu. [/quote 

I don’t believe that there is any intact form of training in KF that has been consecutively passed down in China (or anywhere else). The Shaolin temples were razed to the ground and I believe at multiple times throughout Chinese history martial arts in all forms were banned and nearly obliterated.

From my experience there is not much difference in the styles, only in how they are taught. Many schools will teach the forms to perfections and the end results will be more of a sport similar to gymnastics while other academies will teach it in more of a combat context. I myself practice Kung Fu as the former, in the form many people call Wushu. Really I think there is nothing else (I have seen many schools that teach “real” and “combat” KF — especially Shaolin style — but they teach the same forms and the same techniques, only they incorporate the use of a heavy bag and more sparring). However, I definitely believe that KF training has improved my overall ability to fight.

I guess it depends on what you are looking for. Are you searching for that school that teaches Kung Fu as a superior fighting art with much success, or do you want to master the forms and the philosophy? If it is the former please let me know if you find something like this, because in my experience I have been disillusioned with the results I have found.

If you want to learn what remains of traditional Chinese arts in the latter context the way competitive Chinese Wushu teams do, I suggest checking out some of the academies in Beijing and Shaghai. They usually run about 10k per year, but its intensive training and if I had the cash I would definitely do it (plus you can learn Mandarin and other things such as calligraphy, massage, traditional chinese medicine, etc along with it).>

Post: Haas:

sir i want to lern how to spar useing Kung fu. to compete against other styles without having to compensate any of the art>

Post: Arjun:

Good luck. I don’t think there is any one specific style that couldn’t improve from use of aspects and parts of other styles and methods.>

Post: Haas:

I try :? its fun to dream but some days I wake up and fight using a self taught method of zui quan and wonder how I could have done better and how I could work in a kick or combo whale staggering>

Post: Arjun:

If you have some even minimal background experience in Chinese martial arts you should check out xinyi and try to teach yourself the first basic forms. They are remarkably simple to perform, the mastery coming in the smooth results from years of practice, not from difficult techniques.

The Empty Flower website has some wonderful instruction and information. I taught myself Splitting and Drilling fist forms and a few years later I demonstrated what I knew to a teacher with many years experience in bagua and xingyi and they were impressed (not at any immense skill, but at the mediocre level of proficiency I had reached without formal instruction). But I also have had some years of experience in Long Fist KF and yang taiji, amongst other things.

Check it out, even if your not interested in instructing yourself on this style, the website is put together really well:

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html>

Post: sunnzi:

[quote=nbotary I find it rather humorous that the lot of you keep forgetting that you have to apply to do this first. If you are one of the lucky number of students selected, you then go through and additional two week weed out period. After that, Dr. Yang will select the students that he wants to keep on. Would I like to do it, hell yeah – if I were younger and had the money to do so. But, I would have to “make the grade”, so to speak and be chosen like any other applicant. Would I stick around the full 10 years??? That I don’t know. However, you all keep forgetting that it’s 9 months on, 3 months off. It’s not like you’re living in seclusion from the rest of the world like a hermit for 10 years. I’m not trying to bash anyone over this, as we all have our opinions on it. I just think too many people are not reading what is actually in front of them and they’re quick to call it a scam. Will it work??? Who knows. I agree that the business plan could be better and that the price does seem a bit steep. But, you’re also paying for you’re room and board as well as training for probably 8 hours a day. You should definately have your opinions on the matter, just make sure you don’t overlook any of the other facts. Whoever applies and gets accepted will no doubt become a very well known and respected MA in Chinese Kung Fu should they stay the full duration of the course.[/quote 

Just a little throw in – Technically you are not paying for room and board if you are getting your money back? I’ve been doing KF for 10 years and never came across Dr. Yang before this. I don’t respect anyone for who they learnt their art from, but how they teach and/or their skill level and attitude. No one said it was secluded – its in the hills of California not China. And the picking, weeding process, come on you tell me that if only 15 students apply to this and have the cash in hand and 10 are whiney wimpy I don’t like physical activity types that he will turn them away. If he did I would be impressed. My whole point is to look at this from outside the box at all angles and just not face on. Yah I would love to do it too, but the information from the site (and I realize its not complete) leads me to think it?s dodgy. Oh and besides the format what?s so special about this? Find a private instructor and take Mandarin lessons at the local collage, after 10 years you would probable be ahead and have more money left in your pocket. Has anyone herd of this guy before? :wink:>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Sunnzi, with respect, I already described Dr. Yang’s background as he is one of my three Sigungs under Sifu Bolt and is one of the most respected Chinese martial artists, in my mind on the same level as my eagle claw Sifu Leung Shum. Personal background is a Phd in physics and a Masters in Engineering. He has been doing kung fu and tai chi for over 40 years, has written over 30 books on northern long fist, southern white crane, Yang style tai chi, qigong, fa jing, etc. He also has 48 schools worldwide, including over 30 in Eastern Europe. His organization includes the headquarters in Boston that has been there since 1982 when he left Houston and Sifu Bolt, gave up his real job in Engineering, and slept with his family at the new school in Boston. I have taken many seminars from him, and as someone who has traveled all over either competing or judging in the arts, he is one of the most well respected true Chinese martial arts masters in North America. Liang Shouyu in Canada and East coast masters can attest to his skills. My other two masters know him well and testify to his skill.

Now, of course, none of this speaks to his business or organizational skills. However, he has run a successful 48 school chain for many years and seems to travel all over the world giving seminars. He is considered one of the top authorities in chin na theories and applications. And no, he did not pay me for this. As others on this site know me (Nbotary, Stazzi, and Wushu are junior brothers of mine), I do not give credibility to masters lightly without full testament to lineage, reputation, history, etc.

Hopefully, this answers any doubts about his pedigree.>

Post: Haas:

[quote=Arjun If you have some even minimal background experience in Chinese martial arts you should check out xinyi and try to teach yourself the first basic forms. They are remarkably simple to perform, the mastery coming in the smooth results from years of practice, not from difficult techniques.

The Empty Flower website has some wonderful instruction and information. I taught myself Splitting and Drilling fist forms and a few years later I demonstrated what I knew to a teacher with many years experience in bagua and xingyi and they were impressed (not at any immense skill, but at the mediocre level of proficiency I had reached without formal instruction). But I also have had some years of experience in Long Fist KF and yang taiji, amongst other things.

Check it out, even if your not interested in instructing yourself on this style, the website is put together really well:

http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan/index.html[/quote 

to tell the truth Xing Yi was the first Chinese MA I considered studying but I didn’t get a lot out of it ( I didn’t have a teacher) so I will look at the site>

Post: samurai6string:

Sunzi> I would also add to what BloodyBirds has wrote and say that Dr. Yang has also published many great and extensive works on many diverse subjects under the heading of Chineese Martial Arts. I studied Kodenkan Jujutsu, and my sensei even recomended to me Dr. Yang’s complete Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na as a way to diversify my knowledge of grappling, traping, and countering. Dr. Yang is about as legit as legit can get.>

Post: Haas:

thats good to hear ^_^>

Post: sunnzi:

[quote=Bloodybirds Sunnzi, with respect, I already described Dr. Yang’s background as he is one of my three Sigungs under Sifu Bolt and is one of the most respected Chinese martial artists, in my mind on the same level as my eagle claw Sifu Leung Shum. Personal background is a Phd in physics and a Masters in Engineering. He has been doing kung fu and tai chi for over 40 years, has written over 30 books on northern long fist, southern white crane, Yang style tai chi, qigong, fa jing, etc. He also has 48 schools worldwide, including over 30 in Eastern Europe. His organization includes the headquarters in Boston that has been there since 1982 when he left Houston and Sifu Bolt, gave up his real job in Engineering, and slept with his family at the new school in Boston. I have taken many seminars from him, and as someone who has traveled all over either competing or judging in the arts, he is one of the most well respected true Chinese martial arts masters in North America. Liang Shouyu in Canada and East coast masters can attest to his skills. My other two masters know him well and testify to his skill.

Now, of course, none of this speaks to his business or organizational skills. However, he has run a successful 48 school chain for many years and seems to travel all over the world giving seminars. He is considered one of the top authorities in chin na theories and applications. And no, he did not pay me for this. As others on this site know me (Nbotary, Stazzi, and Wushu are junior brothers of mine), I do not give credibility to masters lightly without full testament to lineage, reputation, history, etc.

Hopefully, this answers any doubts about his pedigree.[/quote 

Bloodybirds – sorry I must have skimmed that. You have peaked my interest though; I think I might pick up one of his books. Any suggestions on one to pick up for a first one? And as for Dr. Yang (your Sigung) no disrespect was EVER intended. As you well know in the martial arts world there are a lot of scams and my intentions were purely to question. :mrgreen:>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Sunnzi, to question is the first step to wisdom and knowledge, like we all know. I can trace the lineage and bona fides of all three of my masters back about several generations and as I have told people when I open a school with two of my brothers soon, there will be a pic of each of my masters and their teachers and a phone number for each of my masters in case someone wants to call them.

I can recommend the latest edition of my Ying Jow master’s books on locking techniques. As far as Dr. Yang, it depends on what you would like to learn first. I can highly recommend any of his DVDS/books on Chin na as he is a world authority on that topic along with my current Sifu Jeff Bolt. Also, his books on the internal jing development emanating from his white crane (southern) is very worthwhile and scientific.

One suggestion is to go on www.ymaa.com and view all of his books and pick and choose as you will. When it comes to each of my three teachers and their masters, I am still in awe after almost 30 years.

Sunnzi, I knew you meant no disrespect. I try to answer this stuff with facts back as I love the Chinese arts and have met some incredible people through that time. It not the questions I sometimes hate, only some of the answers!! :lol:>

Post: opariser1001:

perhaps i was a little harsh calling it a scam. I retract that statement. 90k just seems a bit steep to me, whether or not you get the money back. It seems that that would automatically drop the rate of applicants to the program, and I know that for Kyokushin uchi-deshi, the rate of applicants and especially graduates is extremely low. So though I disagree with the high fees, I shouldn’t call it a scam.

An alternate option that perhaps Dr. Yang could consider would be to have the applicants working for part of their days to contribute to the program, so that the program can pay for their room and board without worrying about a $90k entry fee.

Anyways, just my 2 cents.>

Post: Haas:

there are 5 working students who are not able to pay the guarantee deposit. These 5 working students will have to work 2-3 hours per day and will also have shorter vacation time periods.>

Post: opariser1001:

and thats what the whole program should be>

Post: Stazzy:

This all seems fine and dandy, but it’s not practical. If you think it is, I can offer you a great deal on some nice ocean-front property in Phoenix, Arizona. If he plans to revive martial arts, why is he targeting only the rich? Bloodybirds and all my other martial arts buddies, I hope you will back me up when I say that people of the lower income demographic are much more likely to be inclined to dedicate their time and bodies to endure the harsh training of Chinese martial arts. Why do you think so many “World Champions” in boxing/the UFC/whatever are prime examples of your basic rags-to-riches story. It’s the same with schooling. To put it bluntly, a rich brat that never had to work for anything in his life probably isn’t going to work as hard as someone whose family struggles to pay the bills to get into college. Don’t tell me that’s not true more than 90% of the time. If you can easily afford something in America, you probably take it for granted. If Dr. Yang really wants to revive Kung Fu in America, he should probably focus on a different audience by changing his scouting process. That’s just my two cents though.>

Post: sunnzi:

I agree with Stazzy on that point.>

Post: bamboo:

I like the whole “rich brat” generalization. :roll:

Yeah, only the disenfranchised have discipline, work ethic and drive. :roll:

Quote:
Why do you think so many “World Champions” in boxing/the UFC/whatever are prime examples of your basic rags-to-riches story. It’s the same with schooling.

Like the Rich Franklin with a masters degree? Boxing is a go to sport in the less than affluent areas because its cheap.

Quote:
It’s the same with schooling. To put it bluntly, a rich brat that never had to work for anything in his life probably isn’t going to work as hard as someone whose family struggles to pay the bills to get into college. Don’t tell me that’s not true more than 90% of the time.

Bullshit.
Period.
You have an obvious chip on your shoulder about something. What you just wrote is a typical fucking excuse not a statistic and is not even close to being provable.
“rich people don’t work” whine whine whine.. Not everyone inherits a fortune, people do work to get where they are, and not just 10%.

Why is Dr. Yang charging so much and taking people with money? Because he can and in america people will pay.

Thats the bottom line.>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Dr. Yang personally stated a couple of years ago when he was giving a seminar to us in Houston at Sifu Bolt’s school that he was quite worried that kung fu as an art would go away after my generation because people would not strive as hard. I do know that when I went through my real hell with my Shaolin master the type of training he took us through from 1989-1998 would not be allowed today under a typical setting due to political correctness, concern about pain, etc. However, to my kung fu brother’s point, I will point out, in respectful disagreement, that 8 of the 11 richest people in America made their own money without graduating from college…so…is there a statistical correlation between effort and wealth? The old Horatio Alger story? I tend to believe in present day America, given a service economy, that most Americans still work very hard (most productive labor per cost unit in the world) but with little benefit. But that is another topic. As far as Chinese martial arts, I am going to Orlando this weekend to judge in Nick Scrima’s tournament and I fully expect to see alot of “pretty” forms with no spirit or application and fighting that is little more than touch and go without any principles behind it. Is this a result of bad teaching or bad training? An interesting sampling could be constructed scientifically to study it. But we are the only art that debates tradition over commercialism…..that I know of…..and I would make a supposition (not proven) that more Chinese martial arts schools fail than other styles (another interesting study, though my conclusion here is admittedly made with little evidence and is thus observational/qualitative, not statistically quantitative).

Dr. Yang’s heart is in the right place. I have discussed this with Jeff B. several times and he wishes his master luck but is skeptical about anyone except young Chinese students agreeing to do it, like in the old days in Asia. As far as the cost, besides the payback if you examine the time value of money, 90k is not much over 10 years due to inflationary and CPI indications (money theoretically is not as worth much over time depending upon several economic factors). Well, I wish my sigung luck in his endeavors but do not know if he will be able to find an appropriate amount of people to do it.>

Post: bamboo:

BloodyBirds- I do rather enjoy the respectful way you write , especially to your younger “brothers”.

As you can see from my above post, we are in much agreement, I just have a different way of saying it. :D>

Post: Bloodybirds:

Thank you Bamboo….my teachers taught me well plus, being in the financial arena, I have learned to keep it business, never personal unless you attack either my family or my teachers. Everyone on here deserves respect until otherwise proven. Besides, when someone challenges you, learning occurs on both sides.

Looking forward to leaving the business world this weekend, seeing my kung fu brother from Atlanta while we both judge in Orlando this weekend.>

Post: bamboo:

Very much agreed.>

Post: sunnzi:

I would say you all bring up good points to this, but I still say I have to be in agreement with Stazzy on the fundamental point of his argument. As stated the 8 out of 11 riches people didn?t have a collage degree, but how much were they worth when they started? How much where the rest of them worth when they started? Did they not get their degree because they were rich and didn?t want to work for it? Its only human nature to strive and work hard for something better then what you have or want especially if there is consequences to quitting i.e. eating, rent, morgage you get the point. Now if you are born with everything and don’t need or want anything how hard will you work for things your interested in if there is no consequence in quitting (rich brat syndrome). There are of course exceptions to all and every rule. I have found by personal experience that my wealthy friends that never worked for there money are kind of on the lazy side and do not sick to things in the long term.

-I’m kind of wondering what Bamboo was stating with “rich people don’t work” whine whine whine.. Not everyone inherits a fortune, people do work to get where they are” Is that not one of Stazzy’s points that “poor” people tend to work hard for what they have and achieve??

Oh well my head hurts!!! I think Dr. Yang can do what he wants and all the power to him and I hope it works out in the end and produces some awsome martial artits :wink:>

Post: Haas:

I think the point was that quote unquote poor people wouldn’t be expected to do much more then a quote unquote rich person, because of why they are poor, if he lowerd the price to the amount of a dojo and only 15 people would be expectid to join Just how many spoiled brats would you get??

I like to think I train at a good school but dojos work kinda like a weeding proses wear only the ones that are dedicated would stay. anyway WHO is saying that only rich kids can join this what of the middle class, 90,000 IS A LOT but it would show just how dedicated you are>

Post: dscott:

[quote=Haas I think the point was that quote unquote poor people[/quote 

I’ve never seen someone actually spell out “” before. That’s funny. :lol:>

Post: Haas:

i use it some times when i talk, it dosent push the point as well if you dont make the person read it.

i am a funny guy :P>

Post: sunnzi:

I would think you would have to be rely well off to afford this. I’m considered middle class and there is no way I could afford to do this if I had to pay. 30K down – and remember you wouldn’t be able to work a full time job for 10 years. I don’t know many middle class people that could afford giving 30k then quitting their job, unless you didn?t have a traditional 9 – 5 type job.>

Post: WushuPadawan001:

Reading as I like to do, I came across an article about the first college in the US to offer a degree in martial arts. The University of Bridgeport in Connecticut now offers a bachelor?s in Martial Arts Studies along with a liberal arts focus.
Now, China, Korea, and Taiwan have offered college degrees in the martial arts for some time. In China at least this has kept Wushu on a very high level. Perhaps something similar could be done in the US with many kinds of martial arts. This could go a long way to eliminate charlatans.

On the topic of rich kids?.well?I?ve grown up with millionaire and billionaire kids. Are they all lazy? No. Do they have everything handed to them? Well, generally yes (to an extent this includes myself, but that?s another story). Some of these people are lazy, others are total wastes of life (selling pot during Chapel, that?s just low), and others are hard working people. But, no matter the social/economic class there are going to be the good, the bad, and the ugly (a fact that I am sure you are all aware).

Lastly, believe me when I say this: A spoiled brat who trained with Dr. Yang for 10 years would be neither spoiled (in Dr. Yang?s presence at least) nor bratty in the end. The martial arts have a way of changing people, usually for the better.>

Post: bamboo:

Quote:
no matter the social/economic class there are going to be the good, the bad, and the ugly (a fact that I am sure you are all aware

Agreed. Well said.>

Post: Gazelle:

[quote=bamboo 
Quote:
no matter the social/economic class there are going to be the good, the bad, and the ugly (a fact that I am sure you are all aware

Agreed. Well said.[/quote 

Well said indeed.>

Post: Stazzy:

I enjoyed your post, Ben. :D I will post a reply to these messages in an hour or two or perhaps tomorrow. My little cousin won’t let me concentrate in our hotel room. :/>

Post: Stazzy:

[quote=bamboo 

Bullshit.
Period.
You have an obvious chip on your shoulder about something. What you just wrote is a typical fucking excuse not a statistic and is not even close to being provable.
“rich people don’t work” whine whine whine.. Not everyone inherits a fortune, people do work to get where they are, and not just 10%.

Why is Dr. Yang charging so much and taking people with money? Because he can and in america people will pay.

Thats the bottom line.[/quote 

Three words: learn to read. I didn’t say “rich people don’t work”. I said those who are handed everything in life don’t know what it’s like to work for those things. As for the chip on my shoulder, I have no problem with anyone just because of socioeconomic status. I really couldn’t give less of a shit because I judge people for whom they are and not for what category they fall into. That’s why my friends are so diverse.

[quote=bamboo BloodyBirds- I do rather enjoy the respectful way you write , especially to your younger “brothers”.

As you can see from my above post, we are in much agreement, I just have a different way of saying it. :D[/quote 

No…you really don’t. Bloodybirds doesn’t give biased responses. That’s why I always enjoy reading his posts.

Bamboo, I think you completely missed my point…so I’ll let you reread my post and try again.

Ben, I like your suggestion. A major in martial arts seems like something a lot of people would enjoy. (Bamboo, skip reading the next sentence because it has a generalized statistic.) I know a lot of college students that only go to college because it’s the thing to do and not because they want to major in something they’re interested in. Offering a greater variety is one possible solution to that problem.

As for the original topic of the post, I still haven’t been convinced that this is practical. Oh well, we’ll just have to see what happens with the training.

Sorry I couldn’t respond faster. I had to get some chest x-rays yesterday to check for a possible weakend state of pneumonia. Turns out I’m okay, but I was put on some antibiotics. I should be back to practice on Saturday. Hope to see you all there.[/i >

Post: Bloodybirds:

Staz, good!! We were wondering….I should be in class Wed. and Sat. though I have to get a potential meniscus checked. As far as bias, my only bias in the martial arts are for legitimate, well-trained practitioners who practice what they were taught, explore their abilities, pay homage to those who taught them, and use the art in a beneficial way. That is my bias!!>

Post: bamboo:

Stazzy-

Please, i’m not some 14 year old kid. If

Quote:
I said those who are handed everything in life don’t know what it’s like to work for those things

does not imply the rich then what does it mean?

Quote:
No…you really don’t. Bloodybirds doesn’t give biased responses. That’s why I always enjoy reading his posts

Yes i do. Don’t put words in my mouth, I say what I mean, and I do appreciate what Bloodybirds writes and how he does it. I have no reason to suck up to him or anyone else here.

You wrote with generalised stats, I challenged them.

Heres the other reason I appreciate what Bloody Birds writes- He backs up his opinions with either true facts or real life experience. He does not blurb what he has been told, he speaks for himself and thats it. Himself and Nbotary are fine examples of KF practitioners that hold up well on this or any other board. He wrote that Dr. Yang is the real deal, I accept that based solely out my respect for him.

I challenged what you wrote because it came across as nothing more than whining about a situation. I reread what you wrote and I’m sorry, it comes across as I thought the first time, but then thats the problem of the internet now isn’t it? We have no tone, no expression and no face to face follow up. You might find this hard to believe butI’m actually writing this with a smile on my face.

My role here as a moderator is keep the crap out and with the amount of stuff I see here that really is nothing more than garbage, i do start to get annoyed easily. I’ve never erased one of your threads or posts, I’ve only challenged your ideas as Bloody has mine (and to his credit he has done some damned fine convincing). Do mods here ever get words of thanks for the work they do (and they do a fair amount when traffic is high)? No only crap, yet we still help to make this a pleasant and open minded place to post and converse.

To repeat, don’t tell me what I wrote and what I meant, I was quite clear, and like you I have an opinion and bias, as does everyone.

-bamboo>

Post: Haas:

after reading that i thank you for the hard work you have put in to FIGHTAUTHORITY.com Kungyae *bows*>

Post: Arjun:

Here here. I know what it is like, Bamboo. I am glad you are doing it. I am also glad I don’t have to anymore.

By the by, I think you do an excellent job.>

Post: nbotary:

Bamboo you’re my hero!!! :wink: :D :lol:>

Post: angryrocker4:

[quote=bamboo 
My role here as a moderator is keep the crap out….. [/quote 

Now I’m wondering how any of my posts show up at all?! 8O>

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