The need for kata/forms

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The need for kata/forms
Original Poster: BLACK PANTA
Forum: Others
Posted On: 14-11-2004, 16:11

Orginal Post: BLACK PANTA: I see all these flyers for “modern” martial art schools and they all promote themselves by saying “no belts…..no stances….no katas” Not only do these flyers downplay the NEED for forms/katas but a lot of new age martial artists poke fun and laugh when they see katas/forms.

Katas/forms are needed to learn the basic and advanced movements in the martial arts. Katas/forms were made so that the individual can practice on their own. They able the individual to lean the combative movements and postures. I’ve seen “modern” arts do kata/forms. They just call them drills or exercises. For instance I’ve seen BJJ artists practice Triangle without an opponent. They just go through the movements………..that is a kata/form. Shadow boxing is also a way to perform kata/form.
I realized this when I was practicing my postion flow I learned for JJ without a partner. (I learned this drill flow with a resisting partner) I realized I was performing a kata/form. I am just writing this to make more aware that kata/forms are needed to the martial artist. You are not always able to find a partner to spar and resist. You memorize your kata/form so that you are able to remember movement, technique and gain more familiarity in your art. So to all that mock the kata/forms, remember that when you shadow box or go through your drills when on your own, you too are taking part in the ancient learing tool of kata/forms.

To sum up what I am basically tring to say is that in martial arts you need kata, forms or whatever you want to call it.[/i 

Post: lakan_sampu:

very well said….Katas/forms/Anyos are fundamental in martial arts…
BTW, what are the other terms for “katas/Forms”? we call it “Anyo” in Filipino language….>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

When we say ‘forms’ here, I am assuming that we are talking about solo forms, ie. kata/quantao in their most stereotypical form. Whether or not they are essential all depends on the art in question. Arts like CMA and its descendant, karate, are absolutely form-dependent because they were built that way. Solo forms, as they are practiced in such arts, teach breathing, form (posture, structure, what-have-you) and, most important of all, transitional flow in movement the way it is done in that particular system – the critical fundaments of a system, in short. To train any CMA or karate style without doing forms is like doing boxing without padwork and bagwork – it is like trying to build a house with no foundation. Mind you, simple solo formwork alone is not enough, but without solo formwork, the entire equation collapses.

Moving on to two-man drills/exercises/forms, as I implied above, forms are simply another kind of drill. There are drills and there are drills, but to styles like CMA and karate, forms have the same level of necessity as padwork and bagwork in boxing and pushups in Systema – no living without them. The way I understand it, forms training has been given a bad rap by the rock ‘n roll martial arts phenomenon of the 70s and 80s when enterprising martial artists developed their own forms, performed to rock music. Likewise, solo forms training, if done slipshod and half-heartedly, is easy and a great way to kid oneself that one is a fantastic martial artist. Forms training implies a great deal more than just doing solo forms over and over again – indeed, the mere physical movements are just the icing on the cake. A focused, combative mindset and the fundaments I mentioned above are much more important. In addition, refining one’s form often means refining one’s basics and this can mean practicing portions of the form – or even single movements – over and over and over again to perfection. A boring, repetitive and utterly mind-numbing activity any way you look at it, but the best way to put an edge on one’s ability. And then researching combat application of the fundamentals acquired through forms training means only one thing – sparring. Needless to say, many don’t have the discipline to do that sort of thing and take the easy way out. It’s very easy to fall into this trap and I’ve done so many times myself.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn When we say ‘forms’ here, I am assuming that we are talking about solo forms, ie. kata/quantao in their most stereotypical form. Whether or not they are essential all depends on the art in question. Arts like CMA and its descendant, karate, are absolutely form-dependent because they were built that way. Solo forms, as they are practiced in such arts, teach breathing, form (posture, structure, what-have-you) and, most important of all, transitional flow in movement the way it is done in that particular system – the critical fundaments of a system, in short. To train any CMA or karate style without doing forms is like doing boxing without padwork and bagwork – it is like trying to build a house with no foundation. Mind you, simple solo formwork alone is not enough, but without solo formwork, the entire equation collapses.

Moving on to two-man drills/exercises/forms, as I implied above, forms are simply another kind of drill. There are drills and there are drills, but to styles like CMA and karate, forms have the same level of necessity as padwork and bagwork in boxing and pushups in Systema – no living without them. The way I understand it, forms training has been given a bad rap by the rock ‘n roll martial arts phenomenon of the 70s and 80s when enterprising martial artists developed their own forms, performed to rock music. Likewise, solo forms training, if done slipshod and half-heartedly, is easy and a great way to kid oneself that one is a fantastic martial artist. Forms training implies a great deal more than just doing solo forms over and over again – indeed, the mere physical movements are just the icing on the cake. A focused, combative mindset and the fundaments I mentioned above are much more important. In addition, refining one’s form often means refining one’s basics and this can mean practicing portions of the form – or even single movements – over and over and over again to perfection. A boring, repetitive and utterly mind-numbing activity any way you look at it, but the best way to put an edge on one’s ability. And then researching combat application of the fundamentals acquired through forms training means only one thing – sparring. Needless to say, many don’t have the discipline to do that sort of thing and take the easy way out. It’s very easy to fall into this trap and I’ve done so many times myself.[/quote 

Nicely put. To touch upon your last point. There is an old Shaolin saying. “I dont fear the 1000 kicks you have trained once, but I fear the 1 kick you have trained 1000 times.”

There isn’t only forms/kata in the CMA or karate. There are forms everywhere and in every art.

Once again nicely put Wil.>

Post: The BadBoy:

There is no need for Kata/Forms in the sense of sinle pre arranged patterns. Unless you are planning to compete in a Kata/Forms competition or like dancing for a living. Oh yeah and I suppose I could excuse you if you had absolutly no other training methods, like you were in solitary confinement or something. But then you’d be better of doing Press Ups, Sits ups and other such attribute building exercises.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

[quote=The BadBoy There is no need for Kata/Forms in the sense of sinle pre arranged patterns. Unless you are planning to compete in a Kata/Forms competition or like dancing for a living. Oh yeah and I suppose I could excuse you if you had absolutly no other training methods, like you were in solitary confinement or something. But then you’d be better of doing Press Ups, Sits ups and other such attribute building exercises.[/quote 

why the narrow sighted view brother? This thread is to create awareness about the importance of kata/forms. There is kata/forms in every art, just done differently. Did you actually read the posts above? You are fully intitled to your own personal view on training, but please don’t just say something without a full explaination as to your view.

A few example of kata/forms in other arts. Iaido, has katas to learn the drawing of the sword and cutting techniques. TKD has katas to learn the application and execution of their kicks. JJ has katas to learn the positions, locks and takedowns (this also includes BJJ). Even boxing has katas/forms, wether it be bag work, shadow boxing or training your hook over and over to get in right.

Katas/forms are not for show or exhibition, maybe some people bastardized it, and made people to think so. But kata/forms were made as a tool to learn your kicks, punches, stance, movement, locks, distance etc. B4 you learned how to throw a proper uppercut, I bet you’ve trained it thousand fold……there is a kata/form.

As for kata/forms being used for solitary confinement, yes it can be used in that situation, but they are, like I said, tools for trianing on your own. The past masters would require training like they required nourishment. The couldn’t always train with a partner, so the forms were there for continous training. Just one practical application for the kata/forms. You can’t learn combative applications from push ups, sit ups. You can however gain a deeper understanding into a lock drill from a kata/form. “Hey I see how this joint lock can be executed in this way now”

Please brother, I ask that you open your eyes and mind to the wisdom in the kata/forms. You are not going to perform a kata/form in a real life situation, but through the aid of such training tools, you will be more comfortable with your footing, attacks and defences.>

Post: Tease T Tickle:

There is no need for kata because the only things one needs are water, air and food.

There is no need for kata in martial training because the only things one needs for fighting are a body and the will to use it.>

Post: bushidoka:

You guys are talking of forms in such a general manner that I could consider wiping my butt a kata. You say that throwing a punch over and over is a kata, but it is not. It is merely practicing a punch, no more, no less. Just like bag work, practicing kicking, etc.
you can not learn a joint-lock from an imaginary opponent, nor are you going to gain any insight from it, the body is not there, the joint, resistance or momentum is not there. Hell, you may as well be practicing to become a drunk by attending AA sessions, you’ll get more out of it.
Doing a lock over and over with a partner is not a kata, it is repetition, it’s called practice, training you know. Same as punch/block etc. A kata may help you I guess if you are in fear of forgetting how to throw a punch, but hitting something will do you what you need much better.
That said, I have nothing against people doing kata, a pre-arranged set of movements designed for meditative aspects of your art, it is an integral part of many arts, but not all.
What can ya say, if it turns your crank… :|>

Post: setsu nin to:

Every kata/form have some reason why practicione should practiced it. With some forma we beweloped speed, with someother orientation in smace, with some other we developed out body, in some forms are hidden realy good tecniques… so there is reason why we should practice forms everyday.>

Post: bushidoka:

Yes Setsu, I believe every form serves a purpose in it’s art, but other arts do the same thing in different ways. I am just saying that the term forms or kata are to general, that you can’t say working on the bag or working locks on somebody is the same thing as a kata. It’s not. I’ve done my share or forms, I know what they are. We do not have any forms at all. None, zero, zilch. I’ve been through karate and tkd, and forms fit both of those styles, seemed to blend in with the art, and served their purpose I suppose, but in HKD their is no forms, and I prefer it that way! :lol:>

Post: Irish_Blood:

IMHO I think forms are good for teaching you some movements and good learning practice depending on your Martial Art..
I think that katas and forms, since they incorporate strikes and kicks, can be good practice. The strikes and kicks themselves arn’t forms and katas, but they are worked into it.

As far as shadow boxing vs. kata/form… In the katas, you’re doing the same thing as you’d be doing in shadow boxing but with choreographed movements… You can’t ‘ flow ‘ and work with improvisational moves. This is important to any fighting art.
Forms can help this if you are in a position where you can’t train with anyone else and have limited supply of training equipment, as you can practice a form and get back to your correct form with a strike or kick, then apply it to shadow boxing to keep you from getting sloppy in your practice.

And if forms don’t teach you anything physical, they always teach you discipline and focus.

Personally I have gone through years of Shaolin and done my multitude of forms and techniques.. And I hated them. I felt that it was taking up time I could have spent doing combat realistic training, like focus mit training, awareness drills, etc.
Though I don’t practice katas/forms anymore, I still don’t look down on people who use forms in their martial art. Sometimes in other martial arts, the only way to develope correct punches, kicks, takedowns, locks and movements is by forms.>

Post: 8LimbsScientist:

I agree that the definition of kata/forms is way to broad here. A form is a prearranged sequence of techniques. This is different from practicing a technique over and over again or even shadowboxing. For instance, in TKD they do Patterns (forms), punching and kicking pads over and over again, AND shadowsparring. Does that mean that all three of those were kata/forms practice?

I think that Kata aren’t necessary for every art, but I’m willing to believe that certain arts have been built around them. At the same time I think that we can take those arts and teach them to people in such a way that forms aren’t necessary. Such as teaching karate in an “alive” kickboxing type of form.>

Post: jlambvo:

We have 5 solo forms called sanshin. These are 2-3 steps long.

As far as I am concerned, they are (invaluable) tools to develop INTERNAL AWARENESS, learn new ways to move and manipulate the body, and how the human body works. It exercises your attention, which is vital to the study of any martial art.

And all of these are work you should be doing outside training with a partner, for one because there are plenty of other things to be learning with a partner (and you owe it to them so they get the most out of their partner), and secondly it helps you maintain management of your own body under external stress…. since ultimately, you cannot control anyone else anyway, only yourself :)

I was instructed to look at the sanshin three ways, and then look at each of those three ways, etc, and I think that kind of flexibility helps keep them fresh and useful.

I believe partnered kata are useful for examining how your body of techniques are employed strategically, but this assumes that the unwritten portion of the kata still exist. I also follow the opinion that if you understand these strategies and principles, you should be able to perfom a given kata spontaneously against a resisting opponent, the way its written or in variation. If you can’t you’re probably missing something. So there’s a nice lofty goal to strive for :D>

Post: TigerPaw:

Form without the combative aspect is not form, it is dancing. (Or meditation, at that, hopefully its both)
I personally also draw a line between a series of application and a form, seeing a form has much more principle based techniques “in the middle”, thus from one single move, I can get 5-6 techniques, including defense, attack, jointlock etc.. Although that comes more of a trained view than the actual form.
If I dont know how to take techniques from my forms, or practice in using them and just resort to kicking and punching, even if that’s a whole art in itself;
I’d be better off without forms.

Although if you KNOW how to use your forms, from the basic hardcore repitition (insight of a thousand repititions, even with forms, not only single techniques)
to the picking of techniques and training at performing them with your partner.

If you dont have a partner, you can still do the technique or portions of it, I have heard the analogy that a form is a library with the same book in different languages a few times…
To skip from one side of the conversation to a next:

I believe forms are everything and nothing. at least in my art. as mentioned above, it depends on your art.

With only the form; I lose the battle.
Without form, I lose the battlefield.

“Form doesnt make you a good fighter, Form makes a good fighter a better fighter.” 8)

[Late Night Edit 
“I’m practicing punching and dodging and principles these techniques or a certain aspects of my way of fighting by myself to teach myself basic coordination and to make my muscles\nerves more comfortable with performing the movements while meditating on why I was taught to do this. OMFG, I’m doing kata. D:”

That is, to put it in a way even I can understand, I think Black Panta uses the ‘too general’ view on forms is to demonstrate that the principles are the same, only changes in the need to teach certain techniques in an art.

Although; What do I know, I’m blonde, young and beautiful. :twisted:>

Post: setsu nin to:

bushidoka

Well in my opinion you should take what is good for you. If you have speed developed enought than there is no reason to practice five time per day some form that will help you developed speed, but is you whant to developed speed than finde some form that will help you to developed it and practice it.>

Post: bushidoka:

Hey Setsu, how ya doin’?
This is going to get interesting :lol:
If you are throwing a strike at an imaginary opponent, your body will automatically start braking the blow to avoid injury to its joints and connective tissue.(there is actually a lot of research to back this, I will post it for you later) Nothing you can do about it. You can train yourself to delay this reaction when you practice punching, but I can not see that as being useful in a fight.
When you are striking a bag, the mind and body know, without doubt, that you are going to hit something, the forward momentum is going to be stopped, it doesn’t have to worry about over-extension or hyper-extension. It KNOWS. Thus your body will allow you to strike faster/harder on a bag, than with nothing at all. A guy working the bag in his spare time, will out punch the guy doing forms. I know this is in the extreme, but hey, just to make the point.
As for speed, it has already been genetically pre-determined by the structure of your fast twitch muscle fibre(essentially). Once you learn what speed is, where it comes from and how to generate it, and as long as you exercise that, you are as fast as you will ever be without changing your mass.
When you fight, the body must be free to act, unhindered by the mind, it must flow from attack to defense, from strike to lock, kick to throw without interruption, and with no determined pattern, react as the circumstance demands. Form does not teach this.
Anyway, later guys.>

Post: setsu nin to:

You may say whatever you whant about forms but forms helped me (and my people) much to developed speed. Also in begining of practicing marial arts I noticed that if I go to fast in some technique I will lost myself in technique becouse I go to fast, forms helped me with that too. Forms helped me with orientation is space, in controle od opponens speed. Forms helped me with helth problems and helped me to developed my body (expecialy forms with stick and sword). Also forms helped me to get control over my and opponents body and weapons….

I dont say that forms can replace real fight or anything like that, they cant, but same sparing or striking bag or anything like that cant prepare you for real fight. Anyone who told you that lie or dont know nothing about real fight. All these things can help you in real fight and will be useful if you go to real fight, but only real fight can prepare you for next real fight.

If forms are useless, or not good, or there is not point of practiced them than they wouldnt be practiced by some of best martial artists during the centuryes.>

Post: bushidoka:

hey Setsu, how are you today?
I did not say forms are useless, or no good, just that they are not the end all to becoming a m.a.ist or fighter, and that not all styles utilize them, which was really my point. I do think that there are better alternatives for most forms of drills than shadow boxing, no doubt, but hey, i’m a fighter, and even though I’ve been in the arts since I was a youngin’, most of my fighting does not have much to do with traditional styling, not to say that aspects have not bled over. I hit people, I know what it takes, and fighting and traditional m.a. are not the same, except in very few instances.
if you feel forms work for you, very good! Keep doing them, I gave up my childhood arts, because they were ineffective, they did not work on the street, and I was belted black in both. It took a lot of lumps to figure this out, but hey, that’s what it’s all about, right? Take what works, throw away the rest. Period.
So, if it works for you, use it. 8)>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

Bushidoka, no one said forms are the end all be all to MAs. It is a tool. It is unfortunate that the TMAs you trained in didn’t work out for you. But that’s just it….It didn’t work for YOU. It could’ve been a number of things. The instruction wasn’t good, they rushed you through the belts. It was not combative but sport training. Besides many black belts concider that time to be the beginning of their knowledge. If you take Karate for instance, and learn a BASIC form. There you have a boxing style punch being trained, a muai Thai style kick being trained. It helps you find your centre to aid in throws. There are many things in forms. People think that just becaue forms and the TMA’s take time to learn new techinques that they are only usable when you’re 97 yrs old. Such is not the case. It is up to individual to train his/her forms and techniques learned on his/her own, so they will be effective in real life.>

Post: Ninja Kl0wn:

[quote=The BadBoy There is no need for Kata/Forms in the sense of sinle pre arranged patterns. Unless you are planning to compete in a Kata/Forms competition or like dancing for a living. Oh yeah and I suppose I could excuse you if you had absolutly no other training methods, like you were in solitary confinement or something. But then you’d be better of doing Press Ups, Sits ups and other such attribute building exercises.[/quote 

From now on whenever someone wants my opinion, I’m just going to tell them to ask you. Saves me time that way. :D>

Post: jlambvo:

…and what exercises do you perform to develop sensitivity/awareness of your body and how it moves as a unit? This is IMO one of the greatest (and seemingly overlooked) benefits of forms work, and is something you should be exploring outside partnered training (where your hands should be full developing “external” awareness amongst everything else).>

Post: setsu nin to:

bushidoka

Thanks for asking, I am very good today. Hope that you are at least same good as I.
Are forms street effective, well in theory they can be street effective, but in practice… Form wont help you in street fighting in way that you will use it all in street fight, but it will help you to developed skills and your skills will help you in street fight. Also if you broke form in techniques, technique may help you in fight. So in that way forms can help you in street fight.
I realy like what you said (“Take what works, throw away the rest.”). Its exelent sentence!!>

Post: azreil:

Anyone who says forms/kata are uaeless and ineffective training tools should go up agianst a experianced Tai Chi practitioner. Forms teach your body transitions, punches, kicks, ect.. However forms are not all there is in the world, like all things the best training is a mixture of training methods that work for you.

I really don’t think anyone who knows one thing about MA would say forms are useless, they are a training tecniques and should be given proper consideration and respect.

Also no one would possible dicount the validity of forms if they had practiced Tai Chi or had fought agianst someone who is experianced at it. :twisted:>

Post: wuming:

[quote=The BadBoy There is no need for Kata/Forms in the sense of sinle pre arranged patterns. Unless you are planning to compete in a Kata/Forms competition or like dancing for a living. Oh yeah and I suppose I could excuse you if you had absolutly no other training methods, like you were in solitary confinement or something. But then you’d be better of doing Press Ups, Sits ups and other such attribute building exercises.[/quote 

On the contrary. Forms condition your body in a totally different way than situps or pushups, or what have you. Forms work certain parts of your body in certain ways that is essential for the system you are training in (at least in my system anyway). Forms are a very compact and simple way to do many exercises at once. One form I practice is used to open the bodies joints, work out the legs and back, work out the cardiovascular system, make you more flexible, teach you technique, etc. Another important aspect in forms training is that it teaches you awareness and complete control of every part of your body that you might otherwise have not had control of before. In Pa Kua for example, we use EVERY part of our body when we fight, so it is essential that we train every limb, joint, muscle, etc. that we can, and the forms work on those specific areas in one complete and seemingle simple exercise.>

Post: wuming:

[quote=azreil Anyone who says forms/kata are uaeless and ineffective training tools should go up agianst a experianced Tai Chi practitioner. Forms teach your body transitions, punches, kicks, ect.. However forms are not all there is in the world, like all things the best training is a mixture of training methods that work for you.

I really don’t think anyone who knows one thing about MA would say forms are useless, they are a training tecniques and should be given proper consideration and respect.

Also no one would possible dicount the validity of forms if they had practiced Tai Chi or had fought agianst someone who is experianced at it. :twisted:[/quote 

Very good point Az. This is where I think much of the debate stems from. From my experience it seems that forms in Chinese arts are much different then forms in Japanese arts. If you read my above post you will see how I explained my system uses forms. Also, the form I am describing is not an in place form. It continually shifts different postures and move around the floor. I am not just standing there and punching as some people are saying that forms do. In Chinese arts, forms serve hundereds of different puposes alll depending on the way you practice them. And what is good about the form is that it covers multiple training aspects in one concise drill. Of course forms are not the most important thing in training, in fact they are far from the most important training. It is just that they are very useful when practiced how they were intended and taught by a qualified teacher.

And one more side note. The Chinese forms you are most likely to see in competition are Wushu forms that were devised to look pretty and nothing more. THESE SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH ACTUAL TMA FORMS. There are very specific techniques that Wushu forms twist around so that they look pretty. I repeat, they are not the same as the actual tma form!>

Post: bushidoka:

And one more side note. The Chinese forms you are most likely to see in competition are Wushu forms that were devised to look pretty and nothing more. THESE SHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH ACTUAL TMA FORMS. There are very specific techniques that Wushu forms twist around so that they look pretty. I repeat, they are not the same as the actual tma form!

ROTFLMFAO :lol: I can see some flak coming from this one wuming :wink:

i was 3rd dan Wado Ryu Karate at the same time I was golden gloves. Used to scrap all the time, hormonal thing or something :evil: , but all the forms i did, all the time and work invested into it, did nothing fighting with O’sullivan or any of the other top enders. It was a different life, different reality so to speak. I still consider Japanese arts as my beginning, but they did not work for ME. that’s all.
i do not try to convince anybody to stop kata, just to make them aware that there are other training methods. That is all. I still watch kata/form competition on the tube, and I still enjoy it(not so much since the Reyes were competing lol), but I have not done forms in 15 years or so.
BTW, I am traditional M.A. I am HKD, 4th gen, 3rd black. We do not have forms in HKD either. We train with a body in front of us, that is how we train the body, not the mind.>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Actually, wuming is right about standardised wushu performance routines, and the first people to agree with him would be the high-level coaches from the mainland. Competitive wushu as it is today is aggressive-looking rhythmic gymnastics – a laudable and respectable sport in itself, but not a combative exercise, and any competitive wushu athlete would know his or her limits. True, many trad stylists in the old country compete in wushu also, but they either train in display forms alongside of the traditional forms (which, btw, are far less pretty to look at) or else they compete in the traditional category, which is quickly disappearing.>

Post: wuming:

[quote=Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn Actually, wuming is right about standardised wushu performance routines, and the first people to agree with him would be the high-level coaches from the mainland. Competitive wushu as it is today is aggressive-looking rhythmic gymnastics – a laudable and respectable sport in itself, but not a combative exercise, and any competitive wushu athlete would know his or her limits. True, many trad stylists in the old country compete in wushu also, but they either train in display forms alongside of the traditional forms (which, btw, are far less pretty to look at) or else they compete in the traditional category, which is quickly disappearing.[/quote 

Thank You :D My teacher’s wife used to compete in national wushu tournaments and used to coach them too. My teacher always makes comments on how the wushu forms vary from our traditional forms. That is just one more authority on the subject I have. :wink:

BTW, Bushidoka, I really don’t see where I will be getting any flak from my statement…..>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

Correct me if I am wrong but Wushu (not in the modern sense) means Martial Art/combative art no? To say you study Kung Fu is wrong grammar. You say you study wushu no?

When the older masters say they practice Wushu, they dont mean they practice the gymnastics you see on the “tube”. They actually practice a combative art.>

Post: BLACK PANTA:

btw I say I study Kung Fu because if I say Wushu they will think I’m a chinese ballerina wannabe :P>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Yes, wushu means ‘martial art’ in mandarin. But it is now all but a trademarked term used to describe aggressive Chinese ballet, like you said :wink: Just like ‘mixed martial arts’ could mean just about anything on its own, but is a style unto itself these days, ie. Ruas Vale Tudo.

Depending on your older master of choice, some may still call their art ‘wushu’, but to distinguish it, they may use other terms, such as ‘wuyi’ (‘yi’ being another term for ‘art’), ‘xiwu ‘ (‘to practice martialry’), ‘xuequan/daquan’ (‘to practice/engage in pugilism’) and so forth. Aways down south, many older masters do indeed use the term ‘gongfu’.>

Post: wuming:

You are correct Black Panta, I just didn’t want to bother with the old history behind the word. I was just using the popularized modern sense of the word. I say the same thing myself. In fact if we want to get pc here, kung fu doesn’t even mean martial art as I am sure you know. Kung fu means to have skill (not an exact translation, I just can’t remember it at the moment, but that is roughly it) in something. But it is irrelevant anyways b/c those are the terms that everyone uses nowadays, and if you don’t want to use the terms we will need to give everyone a history/chinese lesson. :wink:>

Post: bushidoka:

“BTW, Bushidoka, I really don’t see where I will be getting any flak from my statement…..”
I was saying that jokingly Wuming. More about the last part of your post than anything. I do agree though, Wushu look mighty pretty in form.
Is it Wushu or wing chun that was founded by a woman? I remember reading about it, but it was awhile ago and I forget.
They say there are 3 ways to tell if you are getting old. One is forgetfulness…I forget the other two. lol.>

Post: wuming:

lol sorry for the stupid statement bushido, I understand now lol :)

Wing Chun was founded by a woman.>

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