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Focus on RRB’s seminar: Russian hand-to-hand fighting


Focus on RRB’s seminar: Russian hand-to-hand fighting
Original Poster: Marina
Forum: Russian Martial Arts
Posted On: 02-10-2004, 17:09

Orginal Post: Marina: [email[/email

The program of the seminar includes:
Russian Hand-to-hand Fighting (RRB)
Special psychological course of study
Special course on medicine
Shooting training (AKM, PM) and rapid defence shooting practice

Private lessons now are available
The goal is to let the student have one-on-one tutor training, to work in the group under the competent guidance of the instructors.

The International Federation of Hand-to-hand Fighting (MF RRB) guarantees the quality of the seminar
The coming seminar will be held according to the International Program of Russian Hand-to-hand Fighting Developing and Propaganda in Russia and abroad.

The instructors are MF RRB, Ministry Affair and FSB (former KGB) top experts. A range of author developments in Hand-to-hand Fighting that has won the recognition of specialists, will be presented on the seminar.

During a week’s course of study you will:

learn the striking techniques
learn original and effective methods of self-defence
master the gun and knife disarming techniques

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Welcome to the site, Marina. Can you tell us more about your particular system of Russian martial art? Is it in any way related to the Systema used by the Spetsnaz?>

Post: Marina:


This system is used to teach and train the officers of the Secret Service and the Intelligence Service and other government secret agencies and organizations in Russia, that carry out especially delicate operations.

RRB, as a rule, is not used for training Spetsnaz – to them RRB is too complicated. RRB doesn’t require physical training, but uses psychomatic training, that is much like the one, used by isihasts in their practice of concentration. There is no spite, anger and hatred in this very system. The main aim is to achieve a state of impassivity, which bears resemblance to the state of “doing nothing” that daoses have in China. But, unlike China, the tradition is not broken off and lost.

But for the awful consequences for the opponent at fighting contact, RRB could be named as the most good-natured system of hand-to-hand fighting. A special attention is paid to learning effective and original releases from grips, the ways of disturbance the opponent’s balance, special striking techniques and fighting against an armed opponent.

If speaking about System, it may be considered as some kind of rough, limited and even defective version of RRB. The System doesn’t originate and proceed from primary sources, it doesn’t scoop from them and it is the so-called original sub product or offal not of the first-rate quality.

In Russia one of the leading developers and experts in RRB is Skobeev Igor Georgievich, who has been working for more than 25 years in this unique field. Here, in Russia and in the Baltic countries, this system of self-defense is considered the most elite among other kinds of Martial Arts, like aikido in Japan, and it causes the maximal interest.>

Post: zefff:

There is no spite, anger and hatred in this very system. The main aim is to achieve a state of impassivity, which bears resemblance to the state of ?doing nothing?

sounds good. Sounds Like the highest Wing Chun or the highest level of any combative art. Detatchment. How is it taught?>

Post: Marina:

Exercitium est mater studiorum>

Post: zefff:

of course! how silly of me. 😉 sounds good.>

Post: dcohen:

[quote=Marina If speaking about System, it may be considered as some kind of rough, limited and even defective version of RRB. The System doesn?t originate and proceed from primary sources, it doesn?t scoop from them and it is the so-called original sub product or offal not of the first-rate quality.

In Russia one of the leading developers and experts in RRB is Skobeev Igor Georgievich, who has been working for more than 25 years in this unique field. Here, in Russia and in the Baltic countries, this system of self-defense is considered the most elite among other kinds of Martial Arts, like aikido in Japan, and it causes the maximal interest.[/quote 

Interesting, both paragraphs. I have a few questions before I’m convinced enough to try your system (you’ll forgive me, of course…a lot of systems use claims similar to yours these days). I’ll simply list the ones that come to mind.

1. What about Systema is “rough?” How is RRB different?
2. In which situations is Systema limited? With what authority do you speak of this?
3.Where and when did you study Systema, who did you train with, and for how long?
4. What about systema is “defective?” And how is it a “version” of RRB? You’ll forgive me for blindly believing in a system of learning which is geared towards NO concrete content, and completely immersed in the practitioner’s own guided discovery of the principles through drills and consciously applying certain things to free work. How does RRB teach differently, and why is this method better?

5. Lastly, where near Boston can I find training in RRB, or someone who can come into my Systema class and teach me something useful from it?

You are stumbling along a line so thin it cuts the flesh. I await your reply.


Post: zefff:

I am glad to see DCohen posting! I always enjoyed his postes even though I know nought about his art besides what he talks about.

These are very good questions that DCohen asks and although I dont know anything about either art I am very interested because as I said the description of RRB sounded very similar to the truer interpretations and expression of WC. Im sure this is the case for a variety of arts and systema no different.

Its odd though because in WC when one becomes and can express the most real approach or becomes a true adept of the art, ‘it’ is still called Wing Chun because through all the growth, understanding and shedding of the BS, the true adept will always return to the root concepts. But this thread isnt about WC so I apologise. What is it that differentiates RRB from Systema? I am really interested!>

Post: shinobi22:

What separates Bannikov from Vasiliev from Sonnon from Kadochnikov? Is it only politics? These guys would have enough problem even working together to bring the Russian styles out of Russia without slinging mud at eachother. They arent unique. Every new culture whos martial art gets released to the West goes through this same scramble to see whos the top dog.>

Post: MA dude:

Slinging mud at eachother? What proof do you have? I have only heard them say positive things about eachother. Vasilev goes to seminars for other russian ma’s and Sonnon highly recomends Vasilev material, Oleg has done a vid with Vasilev and Brett Jacques trains in Systema to complement his sambo. They all reguraly recomend schools of different rma if there is not one in the area. You do not seem to know waht you are talking about. You have never trained in RMA and have been going around forum to forum insulting russian arts whenever you have a chance. They are different arts and they all help each other to educate the public about RMA. I have noticed more arguing between BJJ people than rma. These arts have similar principles but are different arts. Please educate yourself and attend a seminar before you go around trashing these arts around the web.>

Post: dcohen:

Argh. Why can I never seem to win an argument online? They always leave!! First that guy Doctor Octagon and now this joker…why do I even try to be civil…


Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Sad to say, old boy, but arguments were e’er made to be won by fists and sharp edges, not cutting words :twisted:>

Post: MA dude:

I think there might be an misunderstanding with this guy. He seems to be a foreign language speaker. But Dr. Octagon is that guy you invited to your systema school because he was bashing it right? He runs a school in Massachussets you know. Here is his school, I think he is the main instructor You can go and ask him yourself to come try Systema. His name is Bill Mahooney I believe.>

Post: dcohen:

South Shore, cool. It’s 45 minutes but I think I can make the journey sometime. Thanks for the site, but I’ve already asked him myself to come try Systema, and frankly, as I (along with my school) am no longer affiliated with the official Systema body, I don’t care if he comes and tries it now or not.

I am interested in some of his instructors though, so I think I’ll make an effort to check it out.


Post: MA dude:

Why is your school not affiliated with the Systmea official Systema body? Did you join another one or just decided to make a new art? Or are they just practicing it independently? By the way I hope you have a nice time spreading RMA too South Shore Sportfighting.>

Post: dcohen:

[quote=MA dude Did you join another one or just decided to make a new art? Or are they just practicing it independently?[/quote 

Sorry, I was going to make a “new art” and all but then I decided it would just be better to keep doing what works. 😆 No, we are still the same school, same group of people, just practicing without a name for the moment. Quite liberating.

[quote=MA dude By the way I hope you have a nice time spreading RMA too South Shore Sportfighting.[/quote 

Spreading RMA? What the hell? Am I some sort of missionary sent to piss people off? If I go to a Sportfighting club, I go to learn sportfighting. Anything less is disrespectful unless I’m asked. I’d certainly get pissed off if some BJJ white came into class and started extolling the virtues of BJJ, unknowingly in front of guys in class who left after getting blues.

Thanks for trying.


PS. Edited 9/21…I re-wrote content which was apparently taken the WRRRONG way by a few people. My apologies. I have the original saved in case someone is still curious.>

Post: SVETA:

I ‘m Mike and I’m Russian and I want to take part in your discussion about RRB. For several years I was a Systema student and I think I have the right to compare it with RRB. Marina wrote that Systema is “rough” and I think she is wrong, as it is too mild and gentle. You drop you opponent and fall over and over again trying to be relaxed in order to feel the strength of your opponent. And the main principle and the result of such training is that when you face a real danger or simply a hooligan in the street you won’t be able to counteract, as you ‘ve got accustomed to being always relaxed and following the main principle. It becomes really unnatural or even impossible to fight with “reality”. And RRB system teaches to act in reality, it teaches the real fight.

Marina wrote that Systema is “limited”. And I think I can say the same judging from the level of combat instruction or train of the students (not instructors), even the beginners.
You seem to consider Systema universal, unique and all-embracing. Than aswer, what is there in Systema that isn’t in RRB? or that is better than in RRB?

I won’t ask you a question, where, when and who trains you, as there is no alternative abroad to Vasiliev, Ryabko and some others. And now evaluate honestly (at least to yourself) your abilities after the years of studying Systema!

Why Systema is a version of RRB? Think it over and answer the questions: Why Russian cars are worse than foreign cars? Why our Russian machinery is worse than abroad? But there are items we are proud of. We were the first in the science of space travel, we were the first in space flights, our military equipment, machines never yield to the times and as for RRB we’ve gone far ahead for years and years.

What are the methods of teaching RRB? Than come and see everything with your own eyes, as the price is not high.
Why this method is the best one? I think, it is. I’ve studied RRB for about a year and I can jump out of the car at a speed of 40/50 km/hour on the asphalt, I can reduce or deminish my sensation of pain to 30-40% (I mean, to become unreceptive to pain) and so on and so forth.
It is not a secret that the criminal situation in Russia is depressive. Twice the scoundrels tried to attack me but I was able to counteract successfully. So RRB really works! These are not words but facts and my own experience!

Where can you learn RRB? But where are the top experts and top specialists? Of course in Moscow! Not in Boston nor in some other place you can train RRB.
RRB was hidden for many years. Why? See the first passage of Marina’s message and I hope you’ll find the answer. RRB is not a commercial organization but federal. Our government let it promote after the events in Beslan.>

Post: MA dude:

Never heard anything about the problems with Systema organazation. I will do a web search. I didn’t mean you were go and challenge everyone :roll: I meant have a nice time exchanging techniques which I find there is nothing wrong with. For example once in a while I attend BJJ seminars even though I stopped bjj or sambo. Sometimes after the class I will help with leglocks for people who ask. Anyways have fun. They are a reputable mma school. Tell us how it was. Also can I get more info on RRB? Is this the military system by Kachikdov or something else? How about some info on training methods and the history of the art. Also what has happened to the Systema body?>

Post: Jimmy Lee:

Hi Dave! I’m new to RMA still looking for ROSS in Portland. But I did find this school in CO where I’ll be next month
The person who answered said that they too were no longer affiliated with the official Systema body but that theyre the USA Systema organization. It confused me so if you can explain this that would be cool. If you don’t know either then maybe you could hook up with them. From what they say they are eclectic RMA organization who have top instructors from Systema, Kadachnikov, Combat Sambo (Brett Jacqes) ROSS (Scott Sonnon) and Rukapash Boy.>

Post: SVETA:

First I witnessed RRB system on the seminar. The first thing that struck me was that the instructors not having a strong body and looking more slim and refine than good fighters did something unpredictable and unbearable. Their work (attacks, counteracts, grips and releases from them, knife attacking and defense against it and bayonet, etc.) was really great. Besides, they really don’t use their strength, the work resembles the cat playing with its victim – mouse. The movements are very quick and they do everything without strain. When you look at them their fighting seem too simple. You can see that they are cool, calm and collected and do everything easily. The instructors are top experts.

At first they demonstrate you their incredible tactics at full speed (be sure you won’t be able to understand anything). The main thing is that they don’t choose their own students or instructors to show technique, they fight against representatives of different Martial Arts styles. And then you begin to understand that it works and the techniques is amazing, real and effective.

After demonstration RRB instructors reveal their tactics in step-by-step format, in all detail. Take my word for it you’ll be provided with complete instruction.

And then comes practice, practice and practice.

I contact with foreigners and very often they complain that after a big seminar they return completely empty-handed and empty-headed. They come to the conclusion that it is the so-called showing off. They’ve got the impression that they train a lot and too hard but all in all they know nothing, they are cheated.
It’s not about RRB system, as they are eager to share their knowledge and to make you do successfully.>

Post: Jimmy Lee:

What’s the difference between RRB, Kadochnikov and Retuinski styles? Another question please. Both RRB and ROSS are named the International Federation of Russian Martial Art. Is it the same organization just different brances?>

Post: Smersh5:

Interesting thread, however, several questions remain outstanding. Comparisons have been made between RRB and Systema that continue to be unsubstantiated. Marina, your claims that RRB is a higher form than Systema come from what source? Historical facts, practical experience, or the words of those who teach RRB? Please forgive what may be viewed as an outright challenge, but when you state the System is a more crude and essentially defective version of RRB, how and on what do you make these assertions? Sveta, you say you did the System for a few years so this qualifies you to make an educated comparison. Curious, with whom did you study and exactly how long was this? Did you study from an “original source” or from someone who has a mixed interpretation somewhere downstream? I have no issues with making claims as long as they do not appear to have a basis in promotion of one art over another when they both are working the same crowds. In this situation, it appears RRB has a strong vested interest in appearing to be much better than the System for marketing reasons. Having some knowledge of Russian martial arts, I do not yet see where the claims of RRB have much to stand on with their denigration of the System.


Post: Jimmy Lee:

I dont understand is which “System” is Marina talking about: Vasilev, Rabko, Sonnon, Kadachnikov, Belov, Retuinski, Spirodonov. Their all named “Systema” aren’t they? Its just the common name for Russian style. I just read it in the History of Russian martial arts from Scott Sonnon in a Danish MA mag: [url[/url >

Post: Smersh5:

By implication, Marina may mean any “system” other than RRB (which I take to be the acronym for “Russian Rukopashni Boi,” or simply “Russian Hand to Hand.” This is quite generic even in Russian terms. Similar to saying “American Hand to Hand” as if this would define something specific.). I do not question the veracity of what they call RRB as I have no knowledge of it in the terms they have defined it. I have seen quite a bit of Russian martial arts in person both in the West as well as in Russia. As Sveta directly named Vladimir Vasiliev and Mikhail Ryabko, there is little room for misinterpretation. Given the public context of this thread, I am curious as to the substance and qualifications of those who have made the comparisons and negative observations about the System.


Post: MA dude:

[quote=Jimmy Lee What’s the difference between RRB, Kadochnikov and Retuinski styles? Another question please. Both RRB and ROSS are named the International Federation of Russian Martial Art. Is it the same organization just different brances?[/quote 
There are differences in history and in the art. Systema is typically associated with Spetsnaz and is built upon principles and a persons natural reactions. Kadochikov style I believe does not have anything to do with Spetsnaz but other army people take it. From what I have heard it is based mostly on biomechanics. There are also many other former soviet arts. There is a style called Wolf Fighting which was created by Russian criminals. It focuses on strikes to vital targets. There is also Buza which is hard to describe. Russian Draka in the ring is a kciboxing style with throws and takedowns. I do not know if it has a self defense aspect. There are many other styles as well. Even traditional arts from other countries seem different. The traditional oriental styles trained in Russia seem to have an emphasis on self defense. They are almost kept from the flame compared to other places where it is degenearting.I do not know about this RRB. Could someone please tell me its history?>

Post: Jimmy Lee:

It sounds like Marina is just countermarketing against Vladamir and Scott.

I dont understand why she would do this. I’ve read about ROSS and Spetsnaz. Scott worked with Vityaz and Alpha units in particular as well as other general military. On top of that he was the American coach of Sombo as well as the champ in his weight class.>

Post: Smersh5:

The standard martial art taught to most Spetnaz units is a Combat Sambo derivative. It is a hard, linear style. To be fair, Spetnaz is a very, wide term used to describe a huge, diverse body of soldiers. Not all Spetnaz are the same in training or funding. As a result, the quality of hand-to-hand training and skill is often compartmented or even individually dependent. This is loosely similar to the situation of hand-to-hand training and skill found within the American special operations communities. In all honestly, the System is not widely known to ALL Spetnaz, but only a small fraction of it. Most Spetnaz soldiers would say they never heard of ?Systema? as a fighting art. This is because the System is taught in some of the elite Spetnaz units that are very skilled and highly trained in dynamic, fluid fighting. Regretfully, this sounds like over-commercialization and TRS marketing. Everyone wants to lay claim to the ultra art. Who wants to train in second best, right? Well, two years ago, I was part of a publicly broadcast ceremony in Moscow where the System was officially ?re-recognized? as one of Russia?s secret fighting styles that was being preserved by martial artists in the West. Both Vladimir Vasiliev and General Mikhail Ryabko, the main proponents of the System in this century, were recognized as two of Russia?s national treasures. Both of these men are the real Russian deal with extensive military/special operations/special intelligence experience and training. The System is one of a few really great fighting styles coming out of Russia. From the description of the work of RRB, it sounds like claim is being staked out on the SMERSH style. I do not doubt their claim, as the description sounds very similar to the System, which I know does have basis in SMERSH. I will not make any comparisons between the two, as I believe the martial arts world of realistic, quality fighting arts is more than big enough to accommodate both RRB and the System (and many others!). Likewise with the style demonstrated by Mr. Kadochnikov. I had the opportunity to observe his training methods in a private demonstration three years ago in Russia. Both he and his son were highly proficient in a style that looked very similar to the System, except that had more hard angles to it. Not a negative comment, just an observation. Was it effective? Very much so. Would I train with him? Definitely! I have trained with Russian anti-terrorist units who do Combat Sambo. I would do this again in a heartbeat also. I do not know much of ROSS, but from the clips I would say it too capitalizes upon the fluid movements seen in the few truly dynamic Russian fighting styles. Regarding the lesser known arts from Russia, such as mountain fighting, wolf fighting, forest warrior style, etc., I have seen some of them and thought several had the same movements as seen in the System; some had little in common. Bottom line is good movement is good movement regardless of who is doing it?including whatever martial art is doing the movement from whatever country or ethnicity. The System never claimed to have a monopoly on truth. It is too bad, though, that many other martial arts and fighting styles seem to think it is so very important to be seen as being the best while underestimating and devaluing the skills of everyone else. They have a need to lay claim to something unique, previously unknown, and seen as unbeatable. Regretfully, the large majority of martial artists out there lack concrete skill, confidence, and understanding in what is real so they jump about from style to style in the hopes the current flavor is the better than everything else in the world. Many individuals are in for a real shock when they realize what they thought was good is far from the effective in practice. Hopefully the stakes will not be life and death when the lesson is learned.

As to the perceived dramatic changes in the Systema community over the last eight months, look through the spin. Forgive airing out the laundry here, but the truth is being obscured. Vladimir Vasiliev is the primary approving authority for Systema instructor certification in North America. Both Vladimir and Mikhail are the approving authorities for the ?global? Systema community. Just the System! About a year or so ago, Vlad had some concerns about the direction and the quality of the instruction that was taking place in the name of the System. Many where claiming to be teaching the principles and movements of the System but were in fact teaching something that looked very different. To ensure those who had instructor?s certification were truly teaching quality Systema, Vladimir requested all current instructors who had been certified by him in the last few years to re-certify in person in Toronto where his school was located. The trip to Toronto was considered by most a nominal expense considering Vlad does not charge any other fee to achieve instructorship. Some individuals took ridiculous umbrage with this request. Some only wanted to send videotapes of their classes rather than go in person for Vlad to physically see their unedited, unscripted skills in real time. Naturally, others would not make the trip as they were the exact individuals who were making the claim without demonstrating the product. Others refused to see Vlad on some ?principle.? Vladimir was doing responsible quality control. Most certificates were annual with re-certification on the horizon. Only a few would be affected off schedule. As expected, a schism of sorts happened. Most willingly went to Toronto and demonstrated in person. A small minority stayed home. This does not mean those instructors who left of their own accord are poor martial artists. Several are highly qualified in several other martial arts. These instructors simply chose their own way. They left because they would not go to Vlad for re-certification; they were not kicked out or banned from the Systema community. Even now there are several RMA discussion boards to choose from. Each has its own flavor, style, and champions to promote. The world is plenty big enough. Vlad?s forum is considered the central flagpole that is the real source for the purest cyber picture of the System. Anyone playing the past or current situations as anything other than what they are is fishing for sympathy to avoid being honest within about what actually happened.

As to the criticisms the System is too soft, crude, or mild for real defense, again look more to the instructor than the style. The System is very dynamic in dealing with real threats with real action. I can easily name several instructors personally certified by Vlad in the US and Europe who consistently show the ?harder? side of the System. Just go to Vlad?s forum and openly ask who near you is able to teach what you wish to see. They will answer your inquiry without reservation. Then, after you have invested the time to gain personal experience, make your decisions.

Thanks for enduring a long third post.


Post: Jimmy Lee:

Jim great post!!! Between General Retuinski and General Rabko it’s hard to believe so few people in Russian military know about Russian martial arts. But with Great Masters Sonnon and Vasiliev here in North America Im sure the news will continue to spread!>

Post: Jimmy Lee:

Jim I also wanted to ask you what is “not Systema”. You said that Vladamir was not happy with things that were beginning to not look like Systema. Is that purely subjective on his part or is it something where someone could say, “of course that’s Systema and that’s not Systema.” Thanks your obviously the man to ask!!!>

Post: Smersh5:

Wow, Jimmy, evoking me to post another long one. People may talk! :roll:

The System is based upon solid, relaxed movement. There is great power when confidently relaxed and dynamically moving instead of trying to out-muscle and slug it out face-to-face with an opponent. In the latter scenario, size and strength are the deciding factors. For those who have less of either with such an opponent, luck is necessary. Great for sports, terrible for real world application. In the System, solid movement with proper breathing, form, and relaxation decide the outcome. The System consistently shows the weaknesses of tension, emotion, and rigidity. Regretfully, most martial and sports arts take the hard, linear approach to fighting. They rely heavily upon tension and rigidity to neutralize an opponent. This is effective in many circumstances; but in others, this approach leads to disaster. When Vlad was concerned about the direction of what some were calling the System, he was alluding to how some instructors were expressing and teaching the System’s principles wrong. Because the System is principle-based, an individual can easily use what is taught as a “bolt-on” to what they already know. Breathing, form, relaxation, and movement are not proprietary to the System alone. Many people find our application of the basic principles to work phenomenally well with the martial art or fighting style they currently enjoy. When taken as a bolt-on addition, their interpretation of the System is more like “X martial art plus elements of the System.” To say you are accurately demonstrating the System as it is taught in its entirety is not a fair representation. Quite often, the X martial art is more dominant in expression than the System. When X martial art is based upon principles and techniques that are definitively not the System in their mode of expression, ie, high tension, rigidity, highly emotional, linear movements, sport driven, etc., the result is not the System or even Systema-like. Vlad rightfully felt Systema instructors should exhibit the characteristics of the System regardless of their fighting backgrounds. So, seeing that the System was Vlad’s show, Vlad correctly decided to “remind” his certified instructors of the principles of the fighting style they claimed to teach. For some, this reminder was either too insulting to their seniority or past martial experience or too far beyond their current confidence and genuine complete Systema skill set to reproduce in the presence of Vlad. Some instructors were simply trophy hunters looking for another certificate to mount on their marketing wall or website. In the end, some left, most re-certified. While it may appear to be subjective from Vlad?s view?which to some extent it is as it is Vlad?s name on the certificate, objective eyes easily see the real deal from the talkers.

Personal opinion: Individuals who wish to use their past experience as a platform to criticize the viability of a style or system should openly state who their instructor(s) was and the exact time and length of their training. This at least gives the teacher or his peers the opportunity to refute what is being said. It also gives the rest of the community a reference to evaluate the credibility of the claim. All too often the mere accusation by a ?former? student is taken as proof-positive of the claims without ever questioning the skill, experience, or agenda of the student himself. Some people just do not get it regardless of how the material is presented. His frustration and experience hardly qualify to judge an instructor or style. If someone wishes to criticize or compare, step up and state your credentials and detailed account for doing so. Admittedly, some instructors should not be teaching either. I cringe when I see some of what is out there portrayed as the System. However, generic challenges to the System demand the good instructors blindly defend the skills of every other instructor, good and bad. This is ridiculous losing proposition. Generically condemning a system based upon the clumsiness of a single unnamed instructor underscores the adolescence of the accuser not the ability of the fighting style. Martial arts forums are filled with idiots who expect me to reserve judgment and wink at the lower ranking students and rogue incompetent teachers who besmirch their martial art while openly confessing the lower ranking students and rogue incompetent teachers found within the System obviously highlight the complete ineffectiveness of how we fight. Decrying the ineffectiveness of the System based upon fuzzy experiences while commercially advancing a new RRB flavor smacks of the same lunacy. Let the art stand on its own. If it is that good, it does not need to undermine anything else to share or be on top.

Forgive the rant. The views are my own. Vlad is more than capable of speaking for himself. The fact he chooses not to answer challenges to the System (not referencing your question or you personally here, Jimmy) speaks volumes about his desire to train more and talk less. For me personally, this is my first post outside of the one place I visit regularly. The one reason I posted here is because for once the System is being openly questioned with the wrong motivations from within instead the usual goofy attacks from without.


Post: Jimmy Lee:

Jim, thank you for such an incredibly thorough answer to my question!!! WOW! Since your obviously much much more informed than I am, and as you wrote I should avoid bad reps, can I please ask you what particular people to avoid?

Also, I notice that everything you wrote is true of Vladimir’s System, Scott’s System, Kadochnikov’s System, and even Bannikov’s System. Is there a way to tell different systems apart, or is it all “Russian martial art”?>

Post: Smersh5:

Please remember the System is only one of many Russian martial arts. As far as the System is concerned, the best way to determine if an indiivudal is a certified insructor is to check Vlad’s website at in the affiliates section. Many individuals have study groups where there is no certified instructor. This does not mean the individuals there are poor quality. Quite often the opposite is true, as many students of the System are quite skilled in a variety of different styles. Their movement and knowledge in the System is still in the early stages. Jump on board as much can be learned from and with them. As to formal groups, ask the instructor if he is currently certified. Compare this with Vlad’s website. If all else fails, drop Vlad a line. I will answer if I know, but I choose to do so in a private email. I will also send a copy of what I say to the individual as they have a right to know what I am saying. To offer a blanket list of good and bad people is presumptious on my part. Vladimir runs the show. He is the one to ask.

In reference to “Russian Martial Art.” it is often difficult to tell the good ones apart from a first time standpoint. Good movement is good movement, and many of the good styles simply look alike. The best way to tell if one is right for you is to check them out one by one. For the most part, a truly skilled Russian martial artist does not mind if you experience every one, especially if he is confident and honest within himself. Nothing to prove and not adverse to sharing what he knows. This is a common trait in Russian Martial Arts. I have met some very professional fighters in the last few years, and not all belonged to the System.

Hope this helps.


Post: Jimmy Lee:

Jim, wow, sir. Thank you for your thorough answers and patients with my questions. Can you please tell me one last thing? I plan on traveling up to Seattle to train with Scott Sonnon directly at his school since he doesn’t have any affiliates here in Portland. Do you know anything about his system? How should I prepare? Would breathing sprints, pushups and squats be enough? He has a really big school and I dont want to look like a total dork.>

Post: Smersh5:

I honestly am not qualified to give an opinion of ROSS or Scott Sonnon. I think he has a website under You should check there. You should also consider Bear Creek Systema as they too are in Seattle. I know for a fact some high quality Systema guys practice there. Without reservation whatsoever, I suggest you look them up. When will you be going there. I have some info that may be of interest to you about that group.


Post: Jimmy Lee:

Jim I’d like to go there next month after my trip to Colorado. I wanted to signup for Scott’s Softwork seminar but it was already full. Sure I’d love to check out a Systema school in Seattle. Do you know if any of the guys there cross train with Scott? Maybe I could find out what there opinion is.

I’m on Scott’s forum at It’s gigantic!!! I love it there beceause there are people from all over the world studying his System and everyone is open minded and not trying to jam one way down your throat you know what I mean? There’s a great discussion right now in the registered members section on Vladamir which is pretty cool.

I’ve been checking out Vladamir’s forum in lurk mode. I’ll be very honest with you. It’s kind of intimidating over there. It’s more like you have to do “Systema” one way, like you said. I don’t want to offend you or Vladamir (OH MY GOD NO! 😯 ) I have to be very honest that I do like the way that Scott teaches his System in that it can improve every part of your life and that your doing the System every moment of the day, breathing, moving effortlessly, keeping proper structure and using only the minimum tension necessary. I may join the forum, but I think I may wait until I have some RMA experience so I don’t look like a total dork when I start asking all of my questions! :lol:>

Post: Jimmy Lee:

Jim I also wanted to admit that Im going to train with the RMATC in Colorado next month with John Giduck, who is a direct descendant of Cossack warriors and a hall of fame member in the World Federation of Russian Martial Arts. It’s going to be a BIG time event.

This program is co-sponsored by Systema Solutions, Inc., and Archangel Corp., a non-profit, U.S. NGO, providing anti-terror training, education and services to United States military, special operations forces, law enforcement and government agencies.

The High In the Rockies Tactical Training Camp is an intensive, three full day program which provides important tactical and operational skills, firearms training, defensive tactics and academic lectures on critical areas of survival in the current terrorist environment. While designed for military, law enforcement and professional security, it is an excellent opportunity for anyone to learn such skills as wilderness survival, tracking, improvised weapons, knife fighting and throwing, self defense, and shooting. Each of the courses in this program offers the best techniques to be found from special forces training around the world. Instructors are actual special forces veterans and instructors, including training from such units as U.S. Army Special Forces, Russian Spetsnaz, British SAS.

Held at the 800 acre Beaver Ranch, outside Conifer, Colorado, the Camp offers a scenic wilderness training experience, with indoor sleeping, eating and lecture facilities. As weather is unpredictable in the high country in October, be prepared for anything. Training will take place, rain or shine or snow. Still, accommodations are rugged. Warm clothes, wet weather gear, boots and sleeping bags are a must. Everyone must also have a complete, camouflage BDU uniform, handgun of your choice (for those coming from out of state handguns can be provided) and 200 rounds of ammunition. Three meals a day are provided, though snack food is recommended for other times. Pack as though going on a camping trip.

Thursday, 21 OCT 04
1200 – 1400 Arrival and Registration/Check-In
1400 – 1500 Welcome and Orientation
1500 – 1730 Wilderness Recon Skills
1730 – 1800 Supper
1800 – 2000 Lecture/Video – Special Forces Training and Operations

Friday, 22 OCT 04
0500 Wake-up 0530 – 0600 Russian Warm Up and Calisthenics
0600 – 0700 Breakfast
0700 – 0800 Obstacle Course Training
0800 – 0900 Travel to Gun Range
0900 – 1200 FISTFIRE Close Quarters Combat Handgun Introduction Course* ear plugs & eye protection required; this is a live fire course
1200 – 0100 Travel back to camp/Sack Lunch
1300 – 1430 Handgun Retention in Close Combat and Disarming
1430 – 1630 Introduction to Tracking – as taught and trained by Special Forces at the Royal Malaysian Jungle Tracking School
1630 – 1700 Supper
1700 – 1900 Russian Spetsnaz Hand-to-Hand Combat

Saturday, 23 OCT 04
0600 – 0700 Special Forces Calisthenics
0700 – 0730 Breakfast
0730 – 0900 Camouflage, Concealment and Stealth Training
0900 – 1045 Knife Fighting
1045 – 1200 Russian Spetsnaz Shovel Fighting
1200 – 1230 Lunch
1230 – 1430 Knife and Shovel Throwing
1430 – 1630 Small Unit Tactics
1630 – 1730 Supper
1730-1830 Lecture
1730 -1830 Military Night Ops/Field Exercise

Sunday, 24 OCT 04
0700 – 0800 Special Forces Calisthenics
0800 – 0830 Breakfast
0830 – 1030 Takedowns and Groundfighting – Russian Spetsnaz Hand-to-Hand System
1030 – 1200 Death Valley Knife Assault Course – Field Exercise and Team Competition
1200 – 1245 Break Camp/Pack and Police Area
1245 – 1345 Q & A, Assessment, Closing

*As currently used by the U.S. Army Special Forces

Could you email me your opinion of John like you said at [email[/email ? Thanks Jim. I really cant thank you enough for all you done here answering all my questiosn!!!>

Post: dcohen:

[quote=SVETA You seem to consider Systema universal, unique and all-embracing. Than aswer, what is there in Systema that isn’t in RRB? or that is better than in RRB?

I have no answer to that question…as a matter of fact, the first poster here seemed to know, which is why I asked him that same question.

I won’t ask you a question, where, when and who trains you, as there is no alternative abroad to Vasiliev, Ryabko and some others. And now evaluate honestly (at least to yourself) your abilities after the years of studying Systema!

You know what, I’ll indulge you, because I’m slightly pissed. Four months after beginning from “newbie” status in Systema, I was ambushed by three gentlemen who had been waiting for me specifically, one of whom was intending to use a weapon to put me in the hospital if the need arose. I’m not small, but each of these gentlemen outweighed me by at least 10 kilos. Even better, it was personal to one of them.

I survived without a scratch, and was the only person to run away from that interaction unbroken. I owe it to myself, and the part of myself which Systema amplified, that I am unharmed by other people since I started learning this art. My luck, and I like to think some of what I learned in class, have all the credit for this. So, before you do too much assuming about who I am, where I am, how my Systema works, and what I’ve survived because of it…don’t.

As for Jim…he can say it better than I, he sure sounds like he knows what he’s talking about! Listen to him. As far as the politics, relax, some of you are blowing what I said out of proportion and finding meaning where there is none. There is no huge split in the community. Systema is safely with Vasiliev and Ryabco, and just as sweet as when I got into the art. Jim brings up a good point, however – there was a good deal of commotion among some instructors who shall remain un-named…when time to re-cert came, they made a big deal out of it. This was seen in Toronto first hand by my instructor, so believe Jim (who saw it much better than I) when he makes it sound like that is well in the past. It is, and to me the story is as distant as the instructors who were creating this drama are.

I hope this puts some of these things to rest. Jeez, nothing like a good political thread to get people into this forum… :roll:


Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Welcome to the site, Jim! Glad to have another seasoned Systema artist – enjoy your stay!>

Post: Jimmy Lee:

I see you’re obviously a troll. First post, and nothing about YOU. What have YOU done? Probably nothing.>

Post: Smersh5:

Let it go, Jimmy. CreativeReincarnated appears to be bragging about insulting you on Martialtalk in the RMA section. If the individual claiming responsiblity there is the same here, he is a teenager who has much to learn. He does not know John Giduck was involved in Russian Martial Arts for much longer than he (John was on the first, second, and third trips to Russia over the last five years.). At one time, John invoked the name and aid of Vlad and Oleg Taktarov to establish the World Federation of Russian Martial Art. About two years ago, Vlad and John parted company. The Federation is now John’s entity completely. As alluded to earlier, I do not know anything of RRB, and unlike our young one-time poster who seems to know everything, I am not qualified to give an opinion on them either way. I also do not feel it would be proper to frown upon the system of RRB based upon the initial uneducated comments of Mirana and Sveta. Afterall, they may teenagers too. Regretfully, if CreativeReincarnated is one of our own, this highlights some of what is wrong in our art. Too much cult worship of the wrong people (not that I condone cult worship of the right ones either!). Individuals who do not know should not talk and blindly insult as if they do.



Post: Jimmy Lee:

Jim, thank you for your experience, knowledge and mature post!!! Scott has some young guys who worship him like these guys obviously worship Vlad. I guess it comes with masters who are as talented as Scott and Vlad. There abilities make them look supernatural and I guess that does bring in kids who lift them to cult status. But its not like that with everyone!!! Scott and Vlad did what they did through hard work and dedication and they look like their STILL LEARNING AND IMPROVING!!! :shock:>

Post: Smersh5:

While some individuals follow Vlad for the wrong reasons, I personally must say Vlad is the most professional and balanced individual I have ever had the opportunity to meet. I count him as a close friend. My post above was not in reference to Vlad but affiliate instructors and their students. Trolls and toadies are the same ilk just different ends of the spectrum. Thankfully, the existence of both classes in the product of the individual and not the teacher (at least, in this case, this is true!).


Post: Smersh5:

By the way, thank you for the cordial welcome, Wilhelm. My delay in responding was an unintentional slight to you. Many apologies.


Post: bamboo:

Welcome to all the new members that have contributed to these RMA discussions.

Creativefighter/Ilya/creativereincarnated… This and the related threads are of benifit to FA, it gives REAL information, please don’t contaminate it with childish remarks.

If you have an opinion fine, but atleast offer it in a mature fashion.


Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

[quote=Smersh5 By the way, thank you for the cordial welcome, Wilhelm. My delay in responding was an unintentional slight to you. Many apologies.


No worries, Jim. No offence taken – I’m the king of forgetting reply posts myself :wink:>

Post: SonnyP:

Another newcomer here… Jumping right in after my comrade Jimbo made grand entrance in his direct work fashion…lol
Little confused about the few issues…
Systema, Ross came to the west and carved out palce for themselves without much bashing of other ways, methods- at least not in public… In private- you bet we do laugh about certain things we see being taught as ultimate combat truths in some arts.
Kadochnikov system has found its following, and after first organized attempt did not worked out- I’m sure it will soon enough. And being serious and competent system of combat and survival it will create its solid base without having to resort to downtalk methods about other RMA’s allready present in the US, in order to cannibalize some students.
Stating superiority of one way over the other without substantial knowledge of both is sure sign of arrogance and ignorance. RRB (Russkyi rukopashnyi boi) proponents here seem to follow that way. I can not comment on RRB- don’t know enough about it. And stating that because you are Russian and have trained in Systema, with describtion of training as one individual did- I have to say that this individual has NOT recognized what Systema offers- could be because he/she attended few classes in given time period of couple years, was to oblivious to what was being taught or trained with someone without enough knowledge and skill (less likelly). OR- that person has an agenda. Called marketing… Create a story using phenomenal art that Systema (as taught by Vasiliev and Ryabko and their certified instructors) is- highly regarded by many, of course downtalking it and elevating new mystery art (RRB) waaaaayyy above it… Not very original strategy.
So- if I am from former USSR (immigrant), served in Soviet special purpose unit, saw Systema way back- in 1990 near Moscow, have some experience- through direct contact of physical kind (aka- training) with combat sambo, ross and kadochnikov style, have trained under Vladimir for…oohhhh- more than few years- are we on the leveled playing field to discuss superiorities of RRB and inferior art of Systema in more detail??? I’m asking two proponents of RRB- would love to get into REALLY detailed discussion… And to person that mentions the non- applicability of Systema in serious combat- say what??? What do you know about serious combat?
Sorry for the long rant, which is nowhere close as eloquent as Jim’s… I’m still learning some eeenglish…

Sonny aka S-diddy>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Welcome also to, Messr Puzikas. Please give my regards to Milos the next time he attends class. Tell him James sends his love :mrgreen:>

Post: :

Wait…. Doctor Octagon is Bill Mahooney from SSS Fighting?

There’s a really solid fighting school. I’ve seen him fight a few times and his other guys too. Most of the time they’re well trained. What happened with that guy?>

Post: CreativeFighter:

To start, I would like to first apologize that my first post back must be under such conditions. For the last year I have been focusing all of my attention on my RMA training, and personally requested leave from FA.

A few days ago, I was alerted to this thread, both on the RMA forums and through more private means, and I find that I am being impersonated. Matt has kindly deleted that post, and hopefully such an event shall not resurface.

As Jim and Dave have both been so eloquent in their calm line of defense against a torrential downpour of criticism of the System, I do not see too much of a task for me. However, there are some points that I would like to clear up.

Jim: I will not disclose your identity, as you obviously post first-name only for a reason, but if I could please publicly ask you to not jump to conclusions in the future, it would be very much appreciated.

Dave: Good job handling this so far

By the way, if there is one thing that I can say about Dave it is that he is an EXCELLENT practitioner of the System. Whether he is affiliated with the official body or not, he knows what he is doing.

Sonny: Good posts! I don’t think there are too many other Sonny’s in the RMA community, but just in case, I’ll treat your identity in the same fashion as Jim’s.

Now, on to the substance, eh druzya?

RRB is an EXTREMELY general term, perhaps more general than Systema, to describe fighting in Russian. Wrestlers, snake charmers, Kangaroo boxers, anyone can call their style RRB in Russian.

However, there is a small official body that have given RRB an exact style and definition. You claim that the System (Mikhail’s and Vasiliev’s) is primitive, too rough, and that it is practiced with mal-intent, while RRB is gentle, soft, and kind-hearted.

You can obviously fool those who have not practiced Systema, but please, give the rest of us some credit. Systema is everything you claim it is not, plus more. This isn’t marketing, this is experience. I find it indeed convinient that the only training location would be Moscow, but we can put that aside.

I have relatives in Spetz, I have relatives in Mossad, I have relatives everywhere. No, I am not bragging, but rather stating my references.

I called a relative, an uncle ex-Spetsnaz, and asked him about the subject. Did you know that my cousin is the Eastern European RRB champion?

I was puzzled! How is it a competition art? I don’t understand!

My point is that you need to give us specific links and a definition before insulting others.

As for the person who can jump out of speeding cars onto asphalt, kudos! I can most certainly not do that! Must be quite the talent, however, who is to say that such higher up’s in the Systema ladder cannot do the same? After all, I am not nearly as good as them!

Answer, and give a clear cut definition of your style, otherwise you’re just insulting people without substance on your part.

As for the “schism” that Jim has mentioned, I do not see one. When I was a Systema newbie, I tried to see one, I tried to predict one, and in the end, I was just blowing things out of proportion. This is how the system works.

Oh, and Jim, you seem to enjoy taking the occasional jab at other people, even if it is below the surface. Since the instructors in quesiton are not here to defend themselves, I can only politely ask you to refrain from doing this.

Just my opinions,

All the best,

Post: MA dude:

[ Wait…. Doctor Octagon is Bill Mahooney from SSS Fighting?

There’s a really solid fighting school. I’ve seen him fight a few times and his other guys too. Most of the time they’re well trained. What happened with that guy?[/quote 
He does believe that mma is the best art, you can check out his rant section at the website Also he seems to have quite a sense of humor and seems to like posting as the Doctor Octagon fella, he gets to tell his views on mma being a great art for sd and have a little fun at the same time. By the way DCCohen I hope you have fun at his school and tell us your experience if you want.>

Post: Smersh5:

Just returned from a long weekend out of state, so forgive the delay in response.

Ilya, I purposefully did not mention your name, but I did mention the post on Martialtalk where someone under the name WillFightforBeer who signs his posts with the name Ilya did say he intentionally jumped into this particular conversation and insulted everyone in an effort to make his voice heard. As the ?interloper? proceeded to continue the exchange as if he were a part of the regular conversation both there and elsewhere, the obvious conclusion was simple. If this was not you, an apology is in order, but I do not really believe I am the one to make it. Whoever used your identity should do this. He has both stolen your identity here at and in (where he is playing the braggart!). As we in cyberspace have no real way to determine who is the real Ilya when all indicators point to the real Ilya making a post, some general conclusions can and do get made. If someone hijacks your identity?which is a mystery why this would happen for this particular thread, not much to gain from insulting anyone at your expense?why not just use your real name or your pseudonym from Martialtalk instead of CreativeReincarnated, and then, to make sure you get the intended blame, sign the bottom of the posts in here with the name Ilya, as is done in Martialtalk? While I do appreciate the complexities of identity theft, I have a few serious questions about the skill of the thief in this situation. If someone is trying to give you a bad name, he is not doing a very good job of making us aware of your identity in this forum (Would this not be the purpose if he were trying to defame you?). If it were not for me stumbling across the reference to the ?insult? post in Martialtalk, no one here would have had a clue as to ?your? name. Further, you should carefully read my post where I connected your real name to Creative Reincarnated with the word ?IF.? Even though most would find this highly unlikely, I still left some room for you as the “real” Ilya to receive the benefit of the doubt. But hey, seeing that you have no difficulty calling me out in two forums when all I did was quote what I saw, let’s just stick with what was written and the facts of the past. In my post I laid out all of the dots about your identity and the nonsensical accusation that something was amiss in the Systema community for people to connect. I did not omit any words nor did I change the context to make my point believable. As your identity is still in doubt, allow me to move on to the second issue whereby I got involved in this thread. If you think I am taking occasional jabs below the surface, you miss the professional context in which the rebuttal was made. First, against whom did I jab? I intentionally did not mention names out of respect for an issue that is long since settled. The fact you have chosen to rally around someone whom I did not name speaks volumes about the matter you claim does not exist. Also, how is it even though I have purposefully avoided names, no shortage of individuals have risen to the occasion to castigate me as having stated one? Second, the premise that much has changed in the Systema community over the last 8 months, and these changes point to something disconcerting, is absolute nonsense. Things are being bantered about like “former instructors are being ‘kicked out,'” and “political undertones are now permeating the System and now the best instructors are finding it better to be on their own instead of with the group.” Nothing could be farther from the truth! As I previously stated, Vladimir was concerned with what was being taught in the name of the System. He chose to re-certify all of his instructors. The Systema community was not in crisis! Corporations do these same measures all the time to insure what is on the label is exactly what is in the package. Some people chose to leave of their own accord for a variety of reasons. I specifically stated some of these persons were highly skilled in martial arts. But, even when skilled people leave of their own choice, this is not being “kicked out.” Ilya, a “schism of sorts” is a nice way of saying there was a parting of ways that was not a true separation nor was it unfriendly. As to your experience versus mine, I was there, Ilya, you were not. As to me refraining from making statements when select individuals are not here to defend themselves, please remember I did not make reference to anyone in particular. For the general public, nothing other than non-specific statements of historical perspective was given. As such, the explanation alone for a current non-issue should be sufficient. For those within the community who wanted to see more, general statements miraculously transformed into personal attacks even though none were made. For you to ask me to refrain from an action not done by me is true arrogance. FYI: Your stance on professional high ground would have more meaning if you first substantially proved your identity was truly the temporary property of someone else when earlier, less-than-professional posts under your name were being made.

So, I guess this all boils down to two things:

1. I believe some things previously stated about the Systema community are highly inaccurate. I spoke my piece without the need to say names. No one should have been offended as my words were quite general. If someone did take umbrage, then maybe THEY should consider if they personally did have something more than a ?schism of sorts.?

2. Ilya, no doubt, identity theft is a problem, but just because you say you did not make a stupid post does not mean everyone reading your post is obligated to believe it. You effectively had the “insult” post in FightAuthority removed, but you left the post claiming full responsibility in Martialtalk. The notable difference between the posts in the two forums is forum pseudonym was used here in FightAuthority (i.e., CreativeFighter vs. CreativeReincarnated). Whoever is bragging in Martialtalk is using your regular forum name WillFightforBeer and is signing your name to the posts. Ilya, just how many identities have been stolen? You make several other posts in the other forum under the same identity after the “thief” claimed bragging rights. Which posts then are truly yours? Only the smart, witty ones? Ironically, your last post in here posed some good questions and views; however, I am not inclined to give you the credit as I do not know if it is truly “you” who deserves it! A certain level of trust is implied in a cyber conversation, and I admit, I am somewhat cyberblind to persons who tell lies. However, for future reference, cyberblind is not the same as cyberdumb.

Here is what is truly inane. This post initially caught fire when someone dubiously claimed primacy over the System with gauzy details. Since that time, debate and attacks from within our Systema community have done much to make their claims substantive in appearance regardless of the truth. Instead of discussing substantive details relating to the movements of RRB and the System, the conversation degenerated into playground banter like “My evil twin said those bad things” and “stop picking on my instructor.” The best thing we could have done was to say nothing at all in the first place. Any style of fighting worthwhile learning does not need its students to shout its strengths from any rooftop. The style stands on its own.

By the way, my name is Jim King. I rarely post to any other forum than the one in my own backyard. I honestly apologize to the moderators of this forum for hijacking a thread to wash laundry. Regretfully, those who practice RRB never returned to put their thread on the track of their chosing. Does this hint at the veracity of their claims, or the depth of their understanding of the issues? Who knows? Maybe they were just bots parroting the standard responses that would have been given regardless of the style asking the questions. At any rate, I appreciate the patience of those who mod this forum and pay the bandwidth to allow this thread to continue. Genuine hats off and kudos!


Post: CreativeFighter:

Haha, Jim, it seems there’s confusion everywhere.

I am the same WillFightForBeer as on MartialTalk, and I would like to encourage EVERYONE to view my post on there. I simply quoted what the RRB guys were saying, and then said that in my MT post I was trying to insult them simply because of their lack of “credentials”.

Now Jim, before we engage in verbal assault I would like to make it clear that you are highly respected in my book, and that it is quite obvious you are one of the best when it comes to Systema experience.

However, when one that I respect insults me, I must find a way to defend myself. I do not have the time or the energy to make a 10 page rebuttal to your VERY dramatic and linguisticly-superior post, so I will only do what I can.

I never mentioned anything about “picking on my instructor” although you did seem to find a way to extract that from what I DID say. Let me make it crystal clear that if what you say is true then NOBODY is picking on ANY instructor, and that the consequences of their actions are simply their choice.

Therefore, I am just a pawn in the grand scheme of things, whether that scheme is as dramatic as some make it out to be or simply the normal process.

Therefore, I do not expect “my voice to be heard” when I am surrounded by those more knowledgeable and more experienced than me, but I must say, over the year+ I’ve been involved in the Systema community, or nay, the Russian Martial Art community, I have heard a great deal of things from a great deal of people.

I am loud mouthed by nature and it irks me when someone has an opinion that they refuse to express, and to be honest, Jim, that is what I like about you. You never hesitate to say what’s on your mind. That is the main reason why I take nothing you say as personal, but just the normal “process”.

Whether you like me or not is quite irrelevant to the matter at hand, as either way you are my superior. However, you do seem to say a great deal of things that you find easy to cover up when the time comes.

I wasn’t “there” but I’ve heard about it. I’ve read about it. I’ve seen it from “primary” sources 😉

I’m not saying anyone is wrong or right, I’m just echoing the past.

(Willfightforbeer on MartialTalk, Ilya on, Ilya Kleyman on Vlad’s forum)

Crystal clear yet matie?>

Post: Smersh5:

One of the great strengths of the System is the fact everyone is a student of someone. We are all beginners when measured against Vlad; Vlad will say he is just a student of Mikhail; Mikhail will say he is a student of God (not in the arrogant sense, but rather in the sense he has only that which he is given of God.). Interestingly enough, the learning process goes both ways, where veterans learn much from those with less experience just as those with less experience learn from veterans. Good movement is good movement. Working with those who with limited experience in the System or who train in different styles or with graduated degrees of strength and tension provide honest training partners. Many different fighting styles employ dynamic movements. The System recognizes this and has no difficulty handing out credit where credit is due. The reality some arts provide varying degrees of security that we may feel is questionable at best is not worth wasting time and energy upon to denounce or openly expose. Bad movement will be easily seen when good movement is mandatory for survival. Regretfully, many individuals presume to wear the mantle of exposing fraud in martial arts at the expense of truth. At their own peril, they arrogantly use what they know as the measuring rod for everyone else. Maybe they have the skill to get by most of the time. Maybe what they have to say has genuine merit when an honest look is given to what is out there. And just maybe they have been lucky enough to not have the misfortune to have met someone under the wrong circumstances who they wrongfully labeled as fraudulent. Pride is a poor substitute for quality training and attention to detail. One of the most relied upon principles in the System is often the least talked about openly when veterans train or fight. I personally move and fight the way I do from the reference point my opponent(s) is a much better Russian Martial Artist (i.e., in the System) than me. Those who understand the dynamics of the System will have a better understanding of what this means in the context I mean it, but for those who may not, think of it in terms of your own style. If you view your opponent as better than you in what it is you do–he knows how to move and is capable of matching and besting your movement consistently, then you will move more honestly and efficiently without all the laziness and flowery nonsense that often occurs in routine training. You get in, you get out. Whether or not others believe the System is effective has little influence, as I am concerned with how I move properly in relation to whatever they do. I have no delusions about what I think I can do, as I am fully aware of what in possible and what I have already done in real experience. RRB made claims that just simply do not match the truth as I have experienced it. I continue to ask them to support what they have said. Granted, forum jousting is nothing but words, but words act as invitations to look further into what is being talked about. I find many martial arts interesting from a movement perspective. I do not feel it is necessary to disparage what I believe is not for me, nor do I think I have to make this decision for anyone else. If I like it, I say so. If I do not, I usually just move on. People must responsibly choose their own way.

As to the back and forth with you, Ilya, I believe more than enough has been said to satisfy the curious as to what is worth remembering. Yes, I often say more than is necessary. Call it experience with trying to minimize the inevitable misquoting and misinterpretation that permeates cyber exchanges. As to what I extrapolated and posted from your words, I synthesized the posts from two forums and made a primary response to you in here. Simple conclusions from ALL your posts as a whole. You do yourself no favors when you say, ?I’m not saying anyone is wrong or right, I’m just echoing the past.? Arguments come in two forms: what we know is true because we have personally verified the claim by fact, proof, or experience, and what we relate as true because the third party source is assumed credible. Under both conditions, you are responsible for the outcome as you are vouching for the veracity. What you previously shouted with conviction cannot be sloughed off with the weak defense of only echoing what someone else told you. An argument based upon what you hope is true directly affects your credibility, not the third party source. This is exactly what many detractors of the System find so annoying with some of our group who claim to know what they are doing but cannot demonstrate it effectively when asked to do so. At the moment of truth, their only response is, ?Well, Vlad can do it!? I am in the System, and I find that excuse excruciating! So, what you later assert as me being polished at covering up is nothing more than knowing what I am saying when I am saying it the way I meant it to be said. Words do mean things! Given the explanation you are now offering for the “real” meaning of what you meant with your posts here and in MT, maybe you should spend more time writing so you can “cover up” better than you are presently doing too.

Crystal clear? About what you mean now, then, in here, in Martialtalk or when someone else was ?using your identity??

Jim King>

Post: CreativeFighter:

Perhaps if you gave the matter a half-second of thought you would have Matt check the IPs and see if they’re the same or even closely related.

But no, why do that, right Jim? God forbid it would keep you from jumping to conclusions…..


Post: Smersh5:

You are right, Ilya, I obviously jumped to an unfair, stretched conclusion in here.

Let?s see, you contend the troll CreativeReincarnated was not you, but rather someone trying to make you look bad. You had ?his? post deleted. But shortly after CreativeReincarnated posted his trash here, this post appeared in Martialtalk:

09-22-2004, 01:54 PM
WillFightForBeer Martial Talk
Yellow Belt
Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Richmond, Va Art and Rank : WC, MT, Kali, BJJ
Posts: 37

Re: Bad things in Systema?

Just read the whole thread (which seems to be very much alive) and WOW! There’s ******** left, there’s ******** right, there’s ******** EVERYWHERE.

One guy claims he is going to a Russian SpecialForces training camp (Not Vlad’s) with a Systema school who is in the “Russian Martial Art Hall of Fame”.

Another guy is promoting RRB and claiming he can jump out of speeding cars onto asphalt.

Dave is trying his best to keep his cool and explain the situation.

I just burst and in two sentences tried to insult as many people as possible.

Wow. Read the thread. That’s some goofy ass ****.


Help me out, Ilya, you did say you are WillFightforBeer in MT, right? And even though this may just be a coincidence, the name at the bottom of the MT post is the same as your name too, right? Wait, let me guess, rather than jump to the obvious conclusion you wrote the MT post, I am supposed to out of the blue assume this post was made by an imposter. To then prove this to myself, I should contact the MT forum administrator to determine the actual IP address of this ?Ilya? and then compare it with your real IP address. Then, I must contact Matt, which I assume is the moderator for the FA forum to ask him if any of the IP addresses from the MT post match the IP address of CreativeReincarnated. Then and only then, I can fomulate an educated conclusion where I will not unfairly associate the trollish comments posted in FA and the person bragging about making them in MT under your identity with the real Ilya Kleyman.

Are you nuts? You took responsibility for that stupid MT post earlier in here, but now you are saying you were only referring to Marina and Sveta when you ?tried to insult as many people as possible.? Thanks for the clarification. Curious, (a) if not CreativeReincarnated, what identity did you use when you made the insulting comments about Marina and Sveta? and (b) what post other than the now-deleted post of CreativeReincarnated hurled insults at anyone? Help me out, Ilya, I feel this overwhelming urge to pole vault.

It does not take a genius to connect your MT identity to the CreativeReincarnated identity. I personally find your explanation about stolen identities laughably implausible, but, hey, your reputation, not mine. I am not obligated to ask Matt or any moderator for any information on those who post in their forums. Most would tell me take a hike, as such information is not my business. Thanks also for educating me on the exclusivity of IP addresses in the internet persona world. Silly me! I did not realize a person could only have just one at a time.

Tell you what, Ilya, you can have the last words. Use whatever identity you chose and say whatever insult or witty quip you can think of. Your name is on the line, not mine. There is a logical explanation for the context and timing of the above MT post. If CreativeReincarnated is an imposter using your identity, maybe you should fill in the details about your post in MT.

Honest people will often excuse you for being a loud mouth; however, both honest and dishonest people will never forget you if you lie. Like fighting styles, the character of a person should stand alone. In your case, Ilya, what you are standing in has my attention.


Post: MA dude:

Well I am not get into this CreativeReincarnated is really Ilya thing. I will make one comment on the subject though. Ilya if you accidently make a mistake and insult someone because lack of knowledge simply apologize. Anyways this RRB should be more appropiately translated as the Kachidikov system it seems like.>

Post: CreativeFighter:

Ooooh, Jim, you’re quite the clever one.

For the sake of not recieving extra punches in our future training encounters, I will explain the matter without the insults you through at me.

If you read the post, when I said “I just burst in two sentences and tried to insult everyone” I was referring to my MT post, not some post on here. And lo and behold, the very post which I was referencing, I had insulted everyone!

Connect the dots Jimbo.


Post: Smersh5:


Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Smersh5, Creative: Being also a poster on the RMA forum (I’m James Lee, btw), I appreciate the background events leading up to your discussion here. However, I’m also a mod here and I must request that you gentlemen please take the discussion to PM. If you wish it to be aired publically, I shall split your posts pertaining to it from this thread and give you a thread of your own.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation, gentlemen.>

Post: Smersh5:

No problem here, James. The emoticon was a polite way of bowing out of the conversation. As this thread has strayed dramatically from its original skew, I have no issues should you wish to delete or condense my posts to maintain the original integrity of the thread. If you wish, I will put all of my questions from each post regarding RRB into one potpourri entry and wash away the rest. As to a PM or a separate thread, I respectfully decline. Nothing more can be said that has not been said or demonstrated already.

Thank you for your patience with an in-house tiff.


Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

No worries, Jim. If this is the end of it, then I reckon we can probably leave it as it is. I’m lazy to click my mouse, in any case :wink:>

Post: Smersh5:

Kewl. I was sort of hoping you would say something along those lines. I too am a bit lazy when it comes to redacting a post.

Forgive the second hijack and the blatant appearance of cheesy kissing up, but what forum program is being used here? It is really user friendly. I especially like the way the preview integrates with the submit. Editing tools are also easy to use. Really a nice set up, James. Kudos.


If this is best split off from the RRB post, no issues. I just did not want to start a new post with only a choice few comments about the scenery Your call. Regardless, great format.>

Post: Wilhelm von Wänkensteïn:

Heheh, I fear you’ve caught me dead with your question about the forumware, Jim. For that, you have to ask our friendly neighbourhood admin and site owner, Matt, known here as All the same, glad you like it. Hope you and Sonny enjoy your time here – it’s not often we have people as well-known as yourselves from any martial arts community posting here (excepting maybe Ashida Kim 😯 😆 ) and I reckon everyone could benefit from your input, be they Systemists or no.

And, if we could somehow get you two down to that great get-together that we’re always planning but never manage to get underway, we could get us a two-for-the-price-of-one Systema seminar for essentially nothing 😈 :lol:>

Post: Smersh5:

Ha! Deal-monger!!!>

Post: The BadBoy:

Politics my dear friend, politics.>

Post: CreativeFighter:

[quote=The BadBoy Politics my dear friend, politics.[/quote 

If only you knew…..



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